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Author
Topic: Political Thread 3
infi
Posts: 24103
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


Should we start a new political thread and potentially run a pool for how many posts until fpot returns?

I enjoyed Trump's style around the Putin meeting. Trump is like smoke, like a greasy pig. Very hard to nail down. This is super frustrating for the Deep State - they don't like a puppet without strings.

I have been enjoying this youtube channel. She reviews the body language of politicians/commentators and sees through all their bulls***.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7n8r27jRnjpYpfyEfBOLFw


system
--
Raven
Posts: 9620
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Honestly, I've lost track of who leans which way because there's so much bats*** crazy in the thread it all just becomes a mush of muddled names. The crazy is on both sides, that's for sure.
PornoPete
Posts: 3256
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

potentially run a pool for how many posts until fpot returns?


Give it a week.

He will *have to* tell us all about the latest proof of a fascist nazi take over of the US/display his total ignorance of how the Nazi's came to power. Probably won't be able to go too long without calling someone a racist either.

The crazy is on both sides, that's for sure.


My personal favourite of the week was the unironically named "thinkprogress" claiming Justice Kavanaugh being appointed to the Supreme Court will end the right to vote.

That's special, and not like special K.
Vash
Posts: 5802
Location:

Bernie laying down the burns

https://i.imgur.com/PdbrpjE.jpg
Insom
Posts: 4657
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I have been enjoying this youtube channel. She reviews the body language of politicians/commentators and sees through all their bulls***.

I was curious, scientific analysis it isn’t, but if red pill punditry with a liberal dose of armchair psychology is your bag then take a look
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7875
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I'd rather s*** in my hands and clap than start another political thread.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 628
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

* N U K E D *

Reason: Off-Topic
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sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7876
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

* N U K E D *

Reason: Off-Topic
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Nmag
Posts: 1040
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I've been trying to tell you for months. I'm fpot!
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39630
Location: Other International

let's see how long we can make this thread go without it turning into everyone just posting 10 minute videos of their various favourite talking heads to rebut other 10 minute videos
Tollaz0r!
Posts: 18541
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I'm just going to pop this here:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-20/pill-testing-splendour-in-the-grass/10008522

Pill (and tablet) testing works, in several ways. It certainly doesn't give the message that it's OK to take drugs leading to more people doing it, which is the major fear of the typical political Right. So there is little reason not to support a policy of pill testing from either major side of government.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 629
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

* N U K E D *

Reason: whining about moderation
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Tollaz0r!
Posts: 18542
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I have been enjoying this youtube channel. She reviews the body language of politicians/commentators and sees through all their bulls***.


My curiosity is peaked, people watching is an enjoyable activity. Political based people watching is pretty boring, most of the more media savvy polies are pretty closed in their vulnerability and shut down most of their expressive body language so it's not as fun and it ends up being mostly making a lot of assumptions to fill the gaps (more so than when people are more free with their expression).
So the curiosity is about what assumptions she is making and if she presents them as factual or not.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39631
Location: Other International

How about instead of discussing the same old stuff, we come up with a base set of rules for a new Political Thread so we can actually try to have a fun and interesting discussion? I enjoy discussing politics (ironically mostly with infi) but lately it's just gotten too adversarial and predictable.

ideas:
- we (roughly) limit conversations to the political news of the day. Sometimes topics will be interesting enough to keep talking about for a while. But there's always something new and there's few of us here that we should be able to discuss them meaningfully in the short term.
- we (roughly) exclude extremist points of view. So much online discussion these days is based on what some nutjob said, regardless of where they sit on the political spectrum. I think this is the biggest problem facing media in general and it'd be nice to have somewhere where we can avoid the Latest Dumb Thing to happen.
- any videos posted need at least one reasonable written sentence of accompaniment per minute of video. I have a weird anti-video bias because they're so f***ing boring to watch. We've always had a "don't just post links without explanation" vibe going on because that's what Twitter is for and I think this is a reasonable requirement; if you want people to sit through a 10 minute video to get some point across you should have to put in enough effort to justify by explaining what's in the video and how it relates to the conversation and your point of view.

Other suggestions appreciated. I have no idea what would work. I do not moderate this forum much any more outside of more or less random cherry picking but happy to spend a bit more effort on it if it will help (re)create a better forum environment.
Raven
Posts: 9621
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Can we tack a rule on to that?

- If your argument needs to resort to insulting the poster for their point of view, their opinion, or stating facts, you're gone. No ifs, not buts, get lost, you're not welcome here. Because this is why people can no longer reveal what they really thing about situations, the people who simply resort to name-calling and personal attacks over a person sharing a point of view, interpretation, opinion or suggestion.
PornoPete
Posts: 3260
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

If your argument needs to resort to insulting the poster for their point of view, their opinion, or stating facts, you're gone. No ifs, not buts, get lost, you're not welcome here.


I'm on board with that if it's applied evenly and we are clear on what constitutes an insult.

As for

we (roughly) exclude extremist points of view. So much online discussion these days is based on what some nutjob said, regardless of where they sit on the political spectrum. I think this is the biggest problem facing media in general and it'd be nice to have somewhere where we can avoid the Latest Dumb Thing to happen.


Can we see an example of extremist points of view?

Finally Godwin's law needs to be enforced with rigour.
Raven
Posts: 9622
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Working backwards from the previous thread over just the last three pages, the following are all examples of what should be bannable offenses irrespective of the poster, the criteria being posts that attack the poster not the argument or the idea:

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=10020#10049

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9990#10018

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9990#10015

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9990#10014

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9990#10002

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9990#9997

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9960#9970

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9960#9966

You know, now that I've had to go back and generate that list - because I usually just look at posts and don't notice or even look at who the author is - it's pretty clear you've been by far the worst offender of this issue.
PornoPete
Posts: 3261
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

You know, now that I've had to go back and generate that list - because I usually just look at posts and don't notice or even look at who the author is - it's pretty clear you've been by far the worst offender of this issue.


So let's just work through an example shall we Raven?

Explain to me why post 9997 is banable and post 9995 which it is plainly and correctly (in perfect accordance with your reasoning for the rule) deriding isn't.

Im perfectly happy to be polite and I'm serious about following the rule. But if people decide they don't want to play that game and they want to play another game well I'm not going to walk the high road.
infi
Posts: 24105
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I agree that personal insults are very unproductive. Some posts are plainly ridiculous and I don't think that it's bannable to simply point out that the content is ridiculous and as a result there is a serious cause for concern about the poster's mental health.
Raven
Posts: 9623
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Explain to me why post 9997 is banable and post 9995 which it is plainly and correctly (in perfect accordance with your reasoning for the rule) deriding isn't.

Because for the examples I've only skimmed over in a basic sense, I've only used examples where people are plainly and clearly making comments about other people in the thread. It's not to say other threads don't fall in to other unacceptable behavior - like just going nuts on the namecalling of other people - but when you look at merely just people calling other participants of the discussion names and labels, they're all covered there. And they're not okay.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7877
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
We'll call it the anti-slagging rule .. or the anti-fpot rule.
PornoPete
Posts: 3262
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Because for the examples I've only skimmed over in a basic sense, I've only used examples where people are plainly and clearly making comments about other people in the thread.


You didn't include a single one of fpot's posts, and he makes no other kind of post.

you did include a post by infi post #100002 which says the following

making history through retardation.


Who was that targeted at?

I'm perfectly happy to defend every single word I post in that thread, and I chose who I insulted carefully. There are two criteria, if you insult people, or if you persist in making ridiculous arguments which have no basis in fact (like true communism has never been tried, or attempting to psychoanalysis someone you have no actual idea about).

Now lets take another example. The US gun control debate. if you're position is that only an uniformed idiot could support the existence of the second amendment, in my book you're insulting people and you should brace for impact. The reality is 5 justices of the supreme court of the united states disagree with you, and let me be further frank, no-one and i mean absolutely no-one on this forum knows more about the organization of public power and the proper checks and balances (which the 2A is) than those people. 4 justices do not, and no-one and I mean absolutely no-one of this forum knows more about the organization of public power and the proper checks and balances (which the 2A is) than those people either. The only reasonable conclusion to draw from that situation is that 1) the debate is dealing with incredibly difficult issues in which there are no easy answers and probably only sub-optimal trade offs; and 2) reasonable minds may disagree.

Now I am yet to see the person on this forum who doesn't appeal to a lazy idiotic stereo type of a gun owner (southerner named Cletus) when discussing this issue on the pro gun control side.

I don't particularly want to discuss gun control (and I am pro gun control for the record), it is an example, but I will say this, if you don't know what heller is and stands for, I don't care about your opinion on the matter, and if you go on to say that rednecks are holding back progress on the issue, I'm going to insult you because you damn well started it.

So I will follow the rule that you suggest because I actually agree more or less completely with your reasoning. but only if we take it seriously.
infi
Posts: 24106
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

In terms of bannable, surely the post must either be grossly offensive or inappropriate personal flaming. General sounding off is what forums are about. Don't be so precious.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7878
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Is 'triggering' likely to result in nukage?
Scooter
Posts: 6619
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I'm offended and feel that being called 'precious' is a personal and direct attack on my person. So ban Infi kthx. Also, fpot hasn't even posted in this thread (yet) and already two people are s***ting on him. I'm not saying he wouldn't be doing the same (lets face it, it's likely) but it's funny you both saying 'but but but fpot!'

What about banning "What-aboutism's" Trog?

Also, if we're not allowed to talk about extremists, does that also rule out politicians that take lumps of coal into Parliament? Or BCC members that live on house boats?
It would have to include media tarts like Bolt and Waleed.

If I say 'Turnbull was a coward for not fully supporting Marriage Equality' and someone echos back 'Yeah, but what about Gillard and Rudd!? they didn't either' (specifically referencing 2 people that have no current skin in the game) then you get a break. Now if there's a Policy that Turnbull and Shorten both have the same views on (kissing Trumps arse) it should be fair play.


The trouble with any/all of these rules (bar a few very minor exceptions) is that there's way too much grey area and you'll have whingers saying "You banned me for my post but theirs is worse!" so you'd have to be willing to put up with selective modding, which I can't imagine is a fun task.

Plus, even though I don't post much, and mainly lurk these days, reading some of the posters screech can be entertaining. It's just not worth joining the conversation because in the thousands of political posts here, you could probably count on 1 hand where someone has changed their view and the other hand where someone has conceded to absolute evidence, without trying to hand wave it and push on with their agenda anyway.
PornoPete
Posts: 3263
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Also, fpot hasn't even posted in this thread (yet) and already two people are s***ting on him. I'm not saying he wouldn't be doing the same (lets face it, it's likely) but it's funny you both saying 'but but but fpot!'


Well let's not pretend he isn't the elephant in the room.

There isn't a single post of his in that last thread that isn't insulting someone. There also isnt a single post of his which deals with a substantive point. It's just a conga line of s*** sprayed at a keyboard, but it doesn't get nuked. I agree it's entertaining to watch some repeat hyperbolic talking points while thinking they've got it going on in political thought. But it's also a primary source of the issue you point out that nobody gets their mind changed.

Hence the statement I'll follow it if it's applied evenly and we are clear on what an insult is.
Nmag
Posts: 1041
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I believe many of fpot's personal attacks were not tolerable, and Trog condoning them was a demonstration of his bias. I think arguing the issue is good but attacking the person is poor form. Towards the end of the last thread I applied some personal attacks, but I recon I suffered far more than I gave out prior to applying insults to where they were coming from.

Even Trog with his term 'dumb'. If he is a moderator, I think he should just stay out of making comments or have another account for it. Having a person who is possibly respected making left wing comments as moderator is the reason I am even here. The balance needs to occur. Naive people need to know that there are intelligent respected people who oppose the views of the moderator and the vocal minority who support socialist and communiast views.

At the extreme end of the 'term' spectrum we have "cuck" and "nazi". There is no need for either. Count up each and I'm confident we will see "nazi" has been applied far more than 'cuck'.

I most likely still have a 18000000 second post limit, with no explanation.

The reason fpot is mentioned is because he was getting away with very inappropriate behaviour. The reason? Because Trog is biased.
infi
Posts: 24107
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Nmag I think you will find with his absence it will be a lot more pleasant around here.

There should be no sacred cows.
G-R0nk
Posts: 37
Location: Sunshine Coast, Queensland
has anyone still got that picture? 8)
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7879
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I'll just leave this bunger here.

PornoPete
Posts: 3264
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Gees he can't go five minutes can he.

The US setting up anti ballistic missile defences in Ukraine is a provocative act, and it's all the US's fault.

Managed not to mention that Russia invaded Ukraine, stole a bunch of land, and shot down a passenger airliner murdering hundreds of people. That's not provocative. Setting up defences of an ally is.

Anyway thank you for your very thoughtful video slaps. Really made me think.
Vash
Posts: 5803
Location:

Chomsky knows the score. Shame he won't be around much longer.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7880
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
^ Achievement Unlocked!
Vash
Posts: 5804
Location:

Glad to be of service. Check out some more of Chomsky's docos. Like manufacturing consent.
PornoPete
Posts: 3265
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

^ Achievement Unlocked!


I loled
BiKESEAT
Posts: 394
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Don't make any rules for a new thread, I had a great time looking every few days for a laugh.

For the record I agree fpot was by far the worst for personal attacks when someone didn't agree with his pc-lbgti-free-money-for-everyone view of the world.
paveway
Posts: 21548
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

You have to be taking the piss raven, fpot was always the one starting the personal attacks
G-R0nk
Posts: 39
Location: Sunshine Coast, Queensland
this looks interesting - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-22/helsinki-underground-tunnel-system-shelter-from-russian-threat/10022486
infi
Posts: 24108
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Is anyone going to Lauren Southern Sunday night in Brisbane? (I am.) Or have you gone to one of the other shows?

Melbourne really seems to attract that loony left protester element.

sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7881
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Everyone calls her a racialist nazi. I just think she is hawt.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 630
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

How about instead of discussing the same old stuff, we come up with a base set of rules for a new Political Thread so we can actually try to have a fun and interesting discussion?


Don't forget to post limit people you don't agree with. Should have been at the top of your list and I'm surprised it wasn't.

In the same vein I am surprised you haven't at least given fpot a perfunctory post limit so you'd at least have the appearance of being unbiased. Same goes with Raven's hilariously cherry-picked list of bannable posts. You guys are absolute works of art.
PornoPete
Posts: 3266
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I just think she is hawt.


Careful you don't want to catch racialist Nazim.
Nmag
Posts: 1042
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Get rekt Raven, this is me quoting Vash or fpot.

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9990#10018

I'm not a fan of naming calling in arguments and you will see me explaining that over and over in the thread as insults rain from Trog, Vash, and fpot while Trog condones it.
G-R0nk
Posts: 42
Location: Sunshine Coast, Queensland
https://www.worldgallery.co.uk/art-print/babies-collection-spaghetti-head-82310
Nmag
Posts: 1043
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

https://d3l2rivt3pqnj2.cloudfront.net/i/prints/lg/8/2/82310.jpg
PornoPete
Posts: 3268
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

psychologists diagnose people with trump anxiety disorder.

Absolutely glorious.
infi
Posts: 24113
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I laughed my ass off about that. They are stuck in the "denial" stage of grief.
Nmag
Posts: 1044
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

There was a strong correlation between stress levels and electronic news consumption.
symptoms include feeling a loss of control and helplessness, and fretting about what's happening in the country and spending excessive time on social media
What's been called "Trump Anxiety Disorder" has been on the rise in the months following the election, according to mental-health professionals from across the country who report unusually high levels of politics-related stress in their practices


Interesting article. Would be great to see some video of counselling sessions where the patient describes "feeling triggered". The doctor could ask "But how can he get you here in Australia?" He would certainly recommend reducing the reading and watching of Trump hate content.
Vash
Posts: 5806
Location:

"But how can he get you here in Australia?"


I suppose you missed the part of him threatening Nuclear Armageddon.
It still continues to amaze me how much a blind eye is turned to Trump simply because he's triggering their political opponents.
PornoPete
Posts: 3269
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I suppose you missed the part of him threatening Nuclear Armageddon.


Followed by

It still continues to amaze me how much a blind eye is turned to Trump simply because he's triggering their political opponents.


It's a new rhetorical technique in which you prove you opponents point with out realising it.

Another more plausible explanation is that people like you have spent two years working yourselves into a rich creamy froth of neverending overreaction and you're buying you're own bulls***.
Nmag
Posts: 1045
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Vash, can you please link to the article where he is "threatening" to bring where we live into "Nuclear Armageddon"? Which article are you referring to?

or are you just exaggerating again? Exaggeration won't help with hysteria, we need to keep things in perspective,
infi
Posts: 24115
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Exaggerating Armageddon. Classic TDS symptom.
Scooter
Posts: 6621
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

That's a good question actually, what's the nuclear fallout if the USA was to bomb the s*** out of Iran/N.Korea. How many other allies/countries will it affect?

Also, if you expand 'where we live' to, I don't know, this place we call Earth. Isn't a moot point saying that him not bombing us directly wouldn't affect us? Surely, given our governments track record, any war started by the US is going to have a f***tonne of impact on Australians and our troops? If he does send bombs flying, there's a good chance someone will retaliate. How far can one nutter sitting on the second biggest nuclear arsenal go with his weapons platform?

That's totally putting aside the collateral damage to those countries themselves, which IMO is not something you should put aside. Or do their innocent lives not matter simply because they're not Australians?
dazedandconfused
Posts: 631
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

That's a good question actually, what's the nuclear fallout if the USA was to bomb the s*** out of Iran/N.Korea. How many other allies/countries will it affect?

Also, if you expand 'where we live' to, I don't know, this place we call Earth. Isn't a moot point saying that him not bombing us directly wouldn't affect us? Surely, given our governments track record, any war started by the US is going to have a f***tonne of impact on Australians and our troops? If he does send bombs flying, there's a good chance someone will retaliate. How far can one nutter sitting on the second biggest nuclear arsenal go with his weapons platform?

That's totally putting aside the collateral damage to those countries themselves, which IMO is not something you should put aside. Or do their innocent lives not matter simply because they're not Australians?


You do what they did in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Detonate half a kilometre above ground and minimise fallout.
Vash
Posts: 5807
Location:

Thats right Scooter.
Many a decision the U.S makes, Australia is affected.
There's a reason the doomsday clock is closest to midnight it's been since WW2, and it's because of Trump's presidency
PornoPete
Posts: 3270
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

You're going to be frankly staggered to find out I disagree scooter.

The starting point in any talking of nuclear exchange has to be an assessment of the actual likelihood of it happening and not the fevered dreams of the delusional.

I'm going to make a bold claim. There will be no nuclear exchange with either NK or Iran under Trump.

the talk of nuclear Armageddon is delusional. Full Stop.
Obes
Posts: 10653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
If someone is going to nuke the US they will be throw one at Pine Gap as well.
It is a critical piece of their geolocation and spy satelite network.
infi
Posts: 24117
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

They fly the drone strikes on schools hospitals weddings etc from there too.
Nmag
Posts: 1046
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

There is a reason the doomsday clock is closest to midnight it's been since WW2, and it's because of Trump's presidency


Oh Vash, the clock has been like that way before Trump was around.

Again, Vash, can you link to the article regarding Trump threatening Nuclear Armageddon on Australia? I note that you have not. Are you exaggerating?

Who did he threaten Nuclear Armageddon on? Can you link to that article, if you can't find the one regarding Australia?

If you can't find that article, are you interpreting 'fire and fury' from weeks ago as Nuclear Armageddon?

Come on, post some of the hate-information your news feeds give you. The ones where you circle around and form a bond with other like thinkers in self righteous hatred.

When Pine Gap goes up will that be Nuclear Armageddon?

TDS, it's out there.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dji_82fXcAA1VsQ.jpg
taggs
Posts: 6560
Location:

Scooter you can see real world impacts of nuke detonations using this tool https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

Created by the nuclear science/weapons flair at /r/askhistorians. It's pretty neat.
Scooter
Posts: 6622
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Who did he threaten Nuclear Armageddon on?


North Korea "I have a Bigger Button" is still a live tweet. It was mostly only implied against Iran though, not a literal nuclear threat.
For what it's worth i do agree with PornoPete, I don't think it will actually happen, there's far to many checks that one unhinged person wouldn't be able to pass.

Well, except claiming that his presidency has no affect on Australians. If you believe that you're being obtuse or are rather short sighted. We've already been affected simply as it's given rise to some groups that (totally only IMO) are a determent to where I would like to see Australia go.

It's pretty neat.

Could be worse I guess.
https://i.imgur.com/3Yl0NUf.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/Wh7nmJH.jpg





I wonder what's worse, ramming people with a car or killing 6 and injuring 19.
Still, posting the actions of a random crazy person (Lady ramming her car, or 19 year old going on a mass killing spree) is a pretty poor way to support your political argument. Yes, I get the irony of me posting both the link to the killings and that statement.
PornoPete
Posts: 3271
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

For what it's worth i do agree with PornoPete, I don't think it will actually happen, there's far to many checks that one unhinged person wouldn't be able to pass.


I think the third clause in that sentence is where we part company.

I mean this quite literally, I see no evidence whatsoever that Trump does not fully comprehend the consequences of using nuclear weapons, nor have I ever seen it.

He bloviates on twiiter. But so what. that's pretty much what twiiter is for as far as I can see.

The gap between that and the policy discussions that would actually take place is so massive, no serious person could possibly conflate them. the fact a lot of people do says more about them than Trump (which I note you do say it's not literal).

but this is why I dont think its a good question
Scooter
Posts: 6623
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

So you're saying that everything Trump does, says and acts out in public is... an act? He's playing the 'character' of 'Donald Trump the crazy person'?
While behind closed doors you think he's a more reserved strategist?

Then yes, we most definitely part company there. There's no evidence to suggest that being the case, but plenty of leaks to suggest that he is indeed quite crazy and stupid.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2229
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

When you made a new thread, you should have split it into US politics and the rest.

This latest concentration of power sounds pretty good here.

PornoPete
Posts: 3272
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So you're saying that everything Trump does, says and acts out in public is... an act? He's playing the 'character' of 'Donald Trump the crazy person'?


No I'm saying that the trash talk is genuine and helps make people underestimate him.

I don't particularly care about leaks because as we have now seen the people doing the leaking have their own agendas to push. I'd invite you to examine Andy McCabe on this front.

The reason I don't think he is stupid or crazy is the policy that gets implemented has so far been pretty sound.

NK being an example. As has been his handling of Syria.

And for all the s*** printed about Helsinki policy toward Russia remains strong in terms of sanctions and geopolitical strategy. For example pressuring Germany over the Nord II pipeline puts pressure on Russia.

If you can start pointing to significant policy changes I'm all ears.
infi
Posts: 24118
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Australian intelligence services are monitored by an independent inspector-general.

Disclosing state secrets has always, and will always be an offense so no s*** Sherlock. Don't like that? Go to a country that has no secrets because they have no government.
Insom
Posts: 4658
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

just because you're paranoid doesn't mean Trump isn't after you
Nmag
Posts: 1047
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

".. and he threatened Nuclear Armageddon"

https://abovethelaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/therapists-couch-e1372277484406.jpg

Lets be realistic Vash

https://i.imgur.com/dgHgiLg.gif
Vash
Posts: 5808
Location:

My new hat

https://i.imgur.com/52u0eNh.jpg
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7882
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
PornoPete
Posts: 3273
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Naw bless your little heart vash. Another bunch of books you've never read
Obes
Posts: 10654
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
They fly the drone strikes on schools hospitals weddings etc from there too.

No doubt intended to be sarcastic. But yes they also control drones from there (Snowden + multiple sources). Usually the spy type but they do everything...

There is a reason Australia was excluded from Trumps various trade bans. Trump initially included us, but we suddenly got excluded because...

Keep in mind Canada copped sanctions and they play in their MLB, NBA and MLS... and have open borders.

Pine Gap covers a third of the globe including large chunks of China and Russia. Awesome coverage of the south china sea... you know where the Chinese are deploying large amounts of ordinance.

Clear skys. Right location (Tropic of Capricorn)...

It will be the first thing nuked in Australia.
taggs
Posts: 6561
Location:

Obes isn't wrong re pine gap. I hope people appreciate how hard it is for me to agree with obes.
infi
Posts: 24119
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

No doubt intended to be sarcastic. But yes they also control drones from there (Snowden + multiple sources).


no i was being serious. Pine Gap has a large American population.
PornoPete
Posts: 3274
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Obes isn't wrong re pine gap. I hope people appreciate how hard it is for me to agree with obes.


I appreciate. But. are we talking about NK or China?

Is there some reason pine gap would need a *nuclear strike*? Would China be willing to accept the US retaliation?

Again I will reiterate if anyone is talking as though this is an actual risk it falls to them to show *on policy grounds* why this is a likelihood that should be considered.

If you're going to hitch your wagon to tweets, well I hope you have a good way of getting egg off your face. Though I doubt you know you need it.

Let me amplify the hysterics here.

Can anyone name an official state policy which openly acknowledges a rogue state getting a nuclear weapon? I can. But it ain't trumps policy.

if people want to talk about nuclear game theory well then I think a mighty throat clearing is in order. Because otherwise if you are talking about this now (but said nothing in the past six years about the potential changes to the game theory ), you are without exception a hysterical d*******.
PornoPete
Posts: 3275
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

here is a much more interesting thing to talk about.

Here is an article in which WAPO claims "76% of the claims in a trump speech were false"

Here is a claim that WAPO fact checked:

[Elizabeth Warren] proclaims that she’s of Indian heritage because her mother says she has high cheekbones. That’s her only evidence, that her mother said she had high cheekbones.

False. Although there’s no hard evidence to support Warren’s claim of Native American ancestry, she has cited family lore and not just a stray remark from her mother about her cheekbones.


I urge you to remember WAPO attaches the phrase "democracy dies in darkness" to every page on their website.

Warren claims, but cannot prove, she is native American (i.e. she's not) and has literally referred to her mother's opinion on cheekbones RE native American ancestry.

the claim is by any reasonable standard true. But not according to WAPO.

Trump says something which WAPO ADMITS IN THEIR FACT CHECK WARREN LITERALLY SAID AND GOES ON TO RATE IT AS FALSE. I actually can't think of a more perfect example of doublethink. But remember the #resistance would like to talk about Orwell.

to make that unmistakably clear. That is a paper of record stating that a statement of trump which is irrefutably true is in fact false.

much more interesting

WAPO says President Trump has made 4,229 false or misleading claims in 558 days .


WAPO is distinctly unclear if the claim which is literally true (Warren has literally claimed her mother says they have high cheekbones as proof of Native American ancestry) which they rate as false counts as one of the 4.229 falsehoods. Lets run with the fact the fact that some f***ing retard at WAPO decided to fact check that in the first place as conclusive evidence they did include something that is true in the list of things that trump has said which are false.

Even more interesting vash talks about Orwell (who he has never read) as though its a slam dunk against trump.

anyone who doesn't want to be insulted needs to get serious about this kind of s***. Otherwise, you've proved you don't want to play the civility game.
taggs
Posts: 6562
Location:

I appreciate. But. are we talking about NK or China?


Neither, really.

Pine Gap would get hit as part of a first strike scenario whereby an enemy sought to destroy the US' ability to wage nuclear war (extremely unlikely scenario fwiw). The only state with the capability to do that is Russia. China only has a few hundred nukes (i.e. not enough to plausibly first strike the US) and as I understand it deploys them in a counter-value targeting posture, not a counter-force one.

The link below shows the difference in modelling a 2000 warhead strike (assumed to be a first strike) that hits predominantly US nuclear and military targets vs a 500 warhead strike (assumed to be a second strike) which predominantly hits cities and other areas of economic value.

http://i.imgur.com/Svs8wtu.jpg

source: apparently FEMA, early 90s.

To be clear I think the likelihood of nuclear war is just as unlikely with Trump in office as it was when when he wasn't, i.e. utterly minuscule. I just find it all super interesting.
Nmag
Posts: 1048
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Your research concludes that Vash's "Nuclear Armageddon' claim is unlikely. He's following fake news again.
infi
Posts: 24120
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I would love to take a wager with you Vash on the Nuclear Armageddon. You name the period and amount.
taggs
Posts: 6564
Location:

.
Vash
Posts: 5809
Location:


https://thebulletin.org/sites/default/files/2018%20Doomsday%20Clock%20Statement.pdf

Fake news, anything that you feel might be true but your ego forbids to acknowledge.
PornoPete
Posts: 3276
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Just to quote from the document

Especially in the case of the Iran nuclear deal,
allies are perplexed. While President Trump
has steadfastly opposed the agreement that his
predecessor and US allies negotiated to keep Iran
from developing nuclear weapons, he has never
successfully articulated practical alternatives.
His instruction to Congress in 2017 to legislate a
different approach resulted in a stalemate. The
future of the Iran deal, at this writing, remains
uncertain.


JCPOA was going to "prevent" Iran obtaining nuclear weapons.

By allowing them to enrich nuclear materials, without allowing international inspection and required a regime that is fundamentally dishonest to self report.

There was already evidence Iran was not honouring the deal.

Not to mention freeing up Iran's cash reserves allowed them to become the largest state sponsor of terror inside two years. Oh and conduct a systematic program of destabilization in the middle east.

But leaving the deal was the reckless act.

Yeah tell yourself what you have to guys. Seems like the outcome may have been a little "predetermined".
Nmag
Posts: 1049
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

No Vash, if you would like to link to where he threatens Nuclear Armageddon, please do. By doing so, you are simply linking to news. By creating outrageous claims you are creating fake news. The clock concept is flawed. It implies the clock is ticking, yet the clock can be turned back. Again, fear mongering.
Vash
Posts: 5810
Location:

If you'd like to point your attention to the link i posted, feel free to. Any threat of using Nuclear weapons is basically Nuclear Armageddon due to the cascading effect any such decision would have. But i have a feeling anything you disagree with is 'fake news'
Nmag
Posts: 1050
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

See, we can't argue intelligently when you use absolutes. Consider your use of the the word "Any" for example. It's incorrect, you know it, but it fits your narrative. It's a complete exaggeration and is a false statement. This is 'fake'.

"Any threat of using Nuclear weapons is not Nuclear Armageddon " It's that simple.

You provided a link to a doomsday clock article. He did not "threaten Nuclear Armageddon". Your claim is false. It is fake.
Vash
Posts: 5811
Location:



How Fear Affects Political Ideology. Interesting.
infi
Posts: 24121
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

How safe must Democrats feel to support completely open borders?
Vash
Posts: 5812
Location:

How safe must Democrats feel to support completely open borders?


That's the fear being fed to you. Not even the most left leaning parties support completely open borders.
PornoPete
Posts: 3277
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

That's the fear being fed to you


Says the guy linking to a literal countdown to doomsday.
infi
Posts: 24122
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

no that is a rational examination of the facts
PornoPete
Posts: 3278
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

What a silly Billy I am.

Conflating hyping up the risk of the end of the world and the extinction of the human race with the "politics of fear".

Everyone knows immigration and gay marriage are the things people are really scared of.
Nmag
Posts: 1051
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Says the guy linking to a literal countdown to doomsday.


*mild chuckle*

Not even the most left leaning parties support completely open borders.


That's right, whilst some far-left live in communities without doors or locks, others do live in a regular house with walls, and an entry door with a lock on it.
Vash
Posts: 5813
Location:

no that is a rational examination of the facts


Source?
PornoPete
Posts: 3279
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Well we can't all link to semi-literate animated visualisations of confirmation bias.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 632
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

If an illegal immigrant murders a woman after being arrested and deported 5 times previously in a sanctuary city, does one need a "source" in order to conclude maybe illegal immigrants are a risk to society?
Nmag
Posts: 1052
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


ABC news

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/melbourne-sudanese-families-overcoming-gang-stereotype/10016858

'People don't trust us': What it's like raising Sudanese teenagers in Melbourne


Wall of text with feels and insight into family life contains some facts:

While only a small proportion of overall crime in Victoria is committed by a person from Sudan or South Sudan, crime statistics reveal their rate of offending is six times higher than their numbers in the broader population.
“I think the punishment very soft with the jail. Not strong enough. This is why the kids don’t care and so they end up back inside again. “Because everything is available there — medical, their own bed, their own bathroom, TV, activities. I don’t think there should be TV, no telephone, they should have to do a hard job. “Back home, they sleep on the floor a hundred people in one room, there’s one bucket. Because they knew how hard it was when you were in jail, when you were outside you were never going to do a mistake again.â€


There you have it. Mumma says jail here is luxury compared to where they come from. Incompatible culture?
Vash
Posts: 5814
Location:

If an illegal immigrant murders a woman after being arrested and deported 5 times previously in a sanctuary city, does one need a "source" in order to conclude maybe illegal immigrants are a risk to society?


If an Australian citizen murders a woman after being arrested 5 times previously in a city, does one need a "source" in order to conclude Australian citizens are a risk to society?
Do you realise how dumb it sounds?
PornoPete
Posts: 3280
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Do you realise how dumb it sounds?


Alot less dumb than "omg conservatives are going to trigger nuclear Armageddon plus they can only get elected by using fear".
infi
Posts: 24123
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Vash would you be happy to pay 49% tax to fund immigrants arrivals and resettlements? I want to get clear on how extreme your views are.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 633
Location: Sydney, New South Wales



If an Australian citizen murders a woman after being arrested 5 times previously in a city, does one need a "source" in order to conclude Australian citizens are a risk to society?
Do you realise how dumb it sounds?


You're right, we should stop Australian citizens at the border if they have a criminal record. Oh wait. It's almost as if you deliberately make simplistic and quite frankly stupid arguments.
Vash
Posts: 5815
Location:

Vash would you be happy to pay 49% tax to fund immigrants arrivals and resettlements? I want to get clear on how extreme your views are.


No, because it wouldn't be necessary to raise taxes. Immigrants boost the economy and become tax payers themselves.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7883
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
^ So wouldn't that mean that all a country has to do is let in more immigrants and it will magically become a better more wealthy country?
PornoPete
Posts: 3281
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Holy nuclear Armageddon, that's the fear being fed to you.

Yes all a country has to do let in everyone. That's why no country on earth has an immigration act.
Nmag
Posts: 1053
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Vash, would you agree that:

Not all immigrants are equal

Not all job applicants are equal.

Not all nations are equal.

Not all employers are equal?
Vash
Posts: 5816
Location:

^ So wouldn't that mean that all a country has to do is let in more immigrants and it will magically become a better more wealthy country?


Doesn't mean that at all. Every country needs a healthy amount of immigration, not too much and not too little. As a society becomes more educated and progressive, people have less children, which is when you need to increase immigration to offset the loss in population growth.

But this is talking under the current Capitalist framework which requires never ending growth to keep itself going. Something im sure we can all agree isn't sustainable well into the future.

I agree with all those Nmag, im not sure what your point is though.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7884
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I wonder what the perfect rate of immigration would be to lift Haiti out of sickening poverty?

Vash
Posts: 5817
Location:

Looks like Capitalism failed Haiti.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7885
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
How can you blame something that barely exists?
PornoPete
Posts: 3282
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So Raven

Took us 100 posts to get back here.

Let's talk about your rules of discussion. if you've got some rules that will prevent "capitalism is the root of all evil" I'm all ears.

In the meantime there are two kinds of people, retards who think capitalism is the root of all evil and everyone else.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion on climate change. Because if you think you don't have to hear from climate change skeptics I'd like to hear why I should have to suffer Champagne socialists.

I won't mince my words any argument you can come up with for barring climate change skeptics applies a fortiori to a socialist
taggs
Posts: 6565
Location:

Don't try and engage raven, he just likes chiming in with a "pox on both their houses, i'm a programmer so i could totez organise society" nonsense from time to time.

Having said that, this thread has been dominated by f***ing retards for some time. Dazed and nmag are barely better than vash.

you're better than them porno, call them out when they are being retarded
Vash
Posts: 5818
Location:

you're better than them porno, call them out when they are being retarded


Heh thats funny. The better man disregards the lesser man. Hence why porno is ignored by half the forum. (though that isn't many considering the activity here)
taggs
Posts: 6567
Location:

Vash you are the living, breathing embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

just shut the f*** up for a bit please. like I also want dazed and nmag to also shut the f*** up. but please, please know you are on their same level of stupid.
PornoPete
Posts: 3283
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

you're better than them porno, call them out when they are being retarded


I'm quite comfortable about where I stand in the order of things.

I've reduced fpot to a gibbering retard while he can't even read my posts.

Don't hate the player Baby.

It's especially enjoyable to know vash thinks he talks about things I don't want him to.
taggs
Posts: 6568
Location:

You know what I'm saying don't roll around with the pigs, you get dirty and the pigs like it. People read this s*** other than vash and his /r/latestagecapitalist stooges. When they go low let's go high. Vash ain't worth debasing yourself for.

That doesn't carry the day.

Edit: appreciate the hypocrisy of telling of telling someone(s) to stfu and then telling someone else to take the high road. I'm a complicated guy.
PornoPete
Posts: 3284
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I disagree.

I think it is important to have people like vash spew their retardation as often as possible.

As he says a bunch of people block my posts. Which is amazing. I'd love to compare notes with people about policy topic they've discussed with high court Judges. For example discussing human rights abuses in North Korea with Michael Kirby. I've done that.

Pretty sure it's not a long list of other people on this forum who've done that.

But lots of folks are apparently walking the high road. Sounds suspiciously like "I don't want to read opinions I don't agree with" to me.

I enjoy the irony of folks like trog who'll jump down your throat about the experts blocking someone like me. It proves a very clear point in mind.
Nmag
Posts: 1054
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Taggs, you should play the topic, not the person, or stfu yourself.
infi
Posts: 24125
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I think it is important to have people like vash spew their retardation as often as possible.


Vash is like this thread's CNN. The more he talks the more he is ridiculed. Keep up the good work!
Vash
Posts: 5819
Location:


Another right wing scare campaign debunked



http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s4821769.htm

PC & Post modernism, cultural marxism is taking over reeeee


PornoPete
Posts: 3285
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Rather than saying ‘I provide the same care to everyone regardless of difference,’ cultural safety means providing care that takes into account Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander peoples’ needs.

— Nursing & Midwifery Board of Australia code of conduct for nurses and code of conduct for midwives, March, 2018


Oh but wait. Debunked maybe isn't the word for that little guy.

Confirmed might be.

Other than medical I wonder what those needs might be....

It's fun watching someone who obviously struggles to tie their own shoelaces talk about lesser men.

And just for kick the definition of cultural safety from the actual code which definately doesn't require an acknowledgement of white privilege.


Cultural safety concept was developed in a First Nations’ context and is the preferred term for nursing and midwifery. Cultural safety is endorsed by the Congress of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Nurses and Midwives (CATSINaM), who emphasise that cultural safety is as important to quality care as clinical safety. However, the “presence or absence of cultural safety is determined by the recipient of care; it is not defined by the caregiver” (CATSINaM, 2014, p. 9).  Cultural safety is a philosophy of practice that is about how a health professional does something, not [just] what they do. It is about how people are treated in society, not about their diversity as such, so its focus is on systemic and structural issues and on the social determinants of health. Cultural safety represents a key philosophical shift from providing care regardless of difference, to care that takes account of peoples’ unique needs. It requires nurses and midwives to undertake an ongoing process of self-reflection and cultural self-awareness, and an acknowledgement of how a nurse’s/midwife’s personal culture impacts on care.  In relation to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander health, cultural safety provides a de-colonising model of practice based on dialogue, communication, power sharing and negotiation, and the acknowledgment of white privilege. These actions are a means to challenge racism at personal and institutional levels, and to establish trust in healthcare encounters (CATSINaM, 2017b, p. 11).  In focusing on clinical interactions, particularly power inequity between patient and health professional, cultural safety calls for a genuine partnership where power is shared between the individuals and cultural groups involved in healthcare. Cultural safety is also relevant to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander health professionals. Non-Indigenous nurses and midwives must address how they create a culturally safe work environment that is free of racism for their Aboriginal and Torres


That was such an epic debunking. When a fact checker doesn't go to the primary documents it's a huge red flag.

So much less
Raven
Posts: 9624
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
You seem to be confusing things I've said with things trog said.

That aside, some of the false-equivalencies and hyperbole in other posts on the last page or so (from both sides/camps) have been rather ridiculous. But it's quite evident we've resorted back to post after post of namecalling and that some people just can't help themselves.
Nmag
Posts: 1055
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I'd support some guidance around our discussion. I don't mean forum moderation, I mean just having a go.

- Avoid name calling and stupid words like "dumb, idiot, retard".
- Avoid some commonly used but offensive terms like "nazi, leftard, cuck, snowflake, racist".
- Avoid grossly exaggerating with absolutes like "all, none, every, never" unless they are accurate.

I'm sure I've broken some of those points but I try not to.

It's understandable that at times, emotion may override the brain and venting occurs. Whilst I don't agree with Vash's and fpots left wing views I don't hate them for it. They mean well, we don't agree... on its goes. I appreciate the left has this 'benevolent' thing, and it is a nice thing. I believe when you do the maths you need worthwhile return on funds and risk, and I don't personally believe the return is there for wide ranging benevolence.

This Trump and American politics gets too much air time. Why can't we discuss more local things?

Why do we give so much money to Indonesia?
Alize`
Posts: 1932
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Well I think donations to Indonesia are to make sure our mining companies continue to have access to Indonesian resources.

Sorry to hijack your question but this started doing the rounds recently on social media. What are your thoughts on the $444 million dollar donation to fix the barrier reef given to a group that didn't ask for it with oil company relations and no legal tender for the grant?

Nmag
Posts: 1056
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I think the grant will be about as effective at preserving the reef, as the carbon tax is in addressing it's 'goals'.
Spook
Posts: 41155
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
i dont know about you, but im enjoying all the salty liberal tears and dummy spits going on today.

delicious!
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7886
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Can we use 'red pilled' and 'blue pilled' terms?

https://s15.postimg.cc/nqef87pp7/The_Oracle16.jpg

https://s15.postimg.cc/7tk8orhej/14x3n2.jpg

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 21:16:55 14/Aug/18
Nmag
Posts: 1057
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

i dont know about you, but i'm enjoying all the salty liberal tears and dummy spits going on today.

delicious!


The accessibility of social media over the last 15 years has given people with gripes, who want more free stuff, an excessive sense of entitlement, and who have a great deal of free time on their hands, to communicate and essentially circle jerk, protected in their safe space by ever increasing political correctness. Not all that different to noisy children in a household wanting more, and throwing tantrums when they don't get it. Vocal minority.

I know adults who struggle to pay their bills, who can't distinguish between 'wants' and 'needs'. When the money runs low, it's the fault of government. Wealthy people are to blame.

In our home we have no net-flicks, no stan, no cable TV. We have multiple houses in the Sydney property market and both drive cars well under 30k each. We studied hard, and worked hard, we chose careers for $$ not love. I work with people who complain they are poor who have all net-flicks, stan, cable TV, and drive 50k cars, do an annual cruise, and then go pay $200 to get fake eyelashes, got to 4 concerts a year, and believe capitalism is the root of all evil. The state of their household finances is not my fault, it is theirs, plain and simple. It is easy for them to blame the successful. The reluctance to take responsibility for their actions is likely the cause of their own financial pain, plain and simple.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7887
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Did you buy pre housing ponzi boom or after?
PornoPete
Posts: 3286
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

$200 to get fake eyelashes


Small price to pay for self-esteem
Raven
Posts: 9625
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
The state of their household finances is not my fault, it is theirs, plain and simple. It is easy for them to blame the successful. The reluctance to take responsibility for their actions is likely the cause of their own financial pain, plain and simple.


None of what you have used in this example is an indicator or supporting evidence of the claim that capitalism either is or isn't a problem or without issue. Whether or not or how they spend their income in this way is completely unrelated to the issues we're seeing with the massive inequality and cost-of-living issues many are seeing.

Mind you, spelling Netflix as "net-flicks" shows an obvious disconnect from society - this is a company with a $150b market cap we're talking about, not some niche company a few hipsters support.

last edited by Raven at 14:21:42 15/Aug/18
PornoPete
Posts: 3287
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

None of what you have used in this example is an indicator or supporting evidence of the claim that capitalism either is or isn't a problem or without issue.


Not what he wrote.
Whether or not or how they spend their income in this way is completely unrelated to the issues we're seeing with the massive inequality and cost-of-living issues many are seeing.


I don't think you can separate competent handling of personal finances from "cost-of-living" as easily as that.

The complaint he is plainly making is people with high discretionary spending habits (ie enjoying the fruits of capitalism) whining about capitalism.

It doesn't follow that there are no problems whatsoever with the housing market.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2233
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


In our home we have no net-flicks, no stan, no cable TV. We have multiple houses in the Sydney property market
https://i.imgur.com/XaFZvGb.png

This account is so good
edit:
PS: Remember when Pauline was the biggest racist in Aus political landscape?

Yeah make Australia great again, lets go back to those good old days.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-15/anning-speech-sets-up-battleground-between-katter-and-hanson/10123208
PornoPete
Posts: 3288
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

But how will you show everyone you're not racist redhat?
Vash
Posts: 5820
Location:

https://i.imgur.com/NhsS9l5.png

Oh dear.
Raven
Posts: 9626
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Information and education has always been an enemy to the church. Given that republicans are more typically that way aligned, that shouldn't be a surprise they'd be against anything that may reveal the bad things they do.
PornoPete
Posts: 3289
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah could be that.

Could also be the overwhelming evidence that the majority of the media had no interest whatsoever in balanced coverage of their candidate.

like for example fact checking as false a literal quote of Elisabeth Warren.

in which Warren explains her family have high cheekbones "like the Indians do"

But let's revisit this "no insults" rule shall we Raven.

Do you think your post is an insult or not?

Some people might think implying that a whole group of people are living in self ordained ignorance and are angry that the bubble is being poked as opposed them having a coherent political philosophy qualifies as an insult.

Just sayin'
Vash
Posts: 5821
Location:



Indeed Raven
Raven
Posts: 9627
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
You still having a sook because you got called out on numerous posts within just a few pages of actually explicitly targeted name-calling at individuals?
PornoPete
Posts: 3290
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

If that's your reading of that passage of posts, but I think close examination might reveal a different interpretation. But no that's not what I'm doing.

I'm pointing out the fact you bemoan people not expressing their opinion because they get insulted and then rely on a tired, lazy and provably wrong stereotype.

I can see why that might touch a nerve.
BiKESEAT
Posts: 395
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
The irony is if we did have a socialist society these morons wouldn't be having their $200 eyebrow dye jobs and streaming media galore. It would be state sponsored two channel tv with no internet access.. ask North Korea or China.

In other news, Trump is by far the best thing that's ever happened to the US and I wish we could have similar here.

I, along with most of my peers, are university educated, with decent incomes and net worth's, and all of us agree what he has done for the US would be fantastic here. Reducing company tax rates, leaving the stupid paris agreement, bringing manufacturing and jobs back by leaving one sided trade agreements.

Nmag
Posts: 1058
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Like most people, like generations before ours, when we purchased our first house we had to:
- Move 'away'.. further 'out' to a rougher nastier neighbourhood
- Buy a place that was worse than what we grew up in, and was worse that what we rented
- Make s*** loads of sacrifice to get the deposit
- Once purchased, make s*** loads of sacrifice to pay mortgage that was higher than paying rent
- To know that you have liability. You can't just take off and go rent again. This thing needs to be payed off for about 10 years to break even if you wanted to pull out of deal.

All these issues were there then, and still apply. The market was easier then, and it was easier each decade previous.

The trend is likely to continue, unless implosion. It is tough now, but it's over rated to think it was sooo much easier back then.

It was soo much easier in my parent's time, and it's likely to be soooo much harder for generations to come.

About half the people I know my age still rent. Buying isn't for everyone. Some like shares instead of property. Some like the flexibility of renting. Many had to move out of Sydney to buy, and say themselves, they could never afford to move back into the market, that was 10-15 years ago. There are lots of regional towns with lots of jobs with lower priced property in NSW. Sydney is a mess anyway. It's overloaded infrastructure.. with unit blocks going up rapidly. It's been wild.

The thing that will bite a new home buyer now, more than the wages slowing, is the banks holding back lending too much to people who can't pay it off. They offered an outrageous amount to us more than a decade ago and it was pretty shocking. We didn't use what they were offering, it was scary... the risk. but they don't care, and I'm sure many people are way in over their heads. When these interest rates go up, and then start creeping up, could be lots of defaulting happening.

Raven, I'm not really into marketing, and how brands like to use sexie spellin' to whore tha warz. Stuff nflikxz. It's the small recurring unnecessary little luxuries that generally add up to more than the 'larger' costs in a household budget. How about, personalised plates, getting nails done, registering 3 cars and two motor bikes for one person, choosing to live alone, 'cause it's nice'. Pets, hobbies, holidays,... latest iphone, run aircon day and night, eating out often.. daily $4 coffees. It all adds up.

We will be out of the game when we sell a house this year, and then we just have our home. Media typically runs stories about tenants getting a bad deal. Ask a landlord for some horror stories. Contrary to media hype, the NSW rental bond board tribunal tends to favour the tenant regardless the news you read. The things tenants can do to a house in a lower socioeconomic area, and get away with it are fascinating.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39639
Location: Other International

The irony is if we did have a socialist society these morons wouldn't be having their $200 eyebrow dye jobs and streaming media galore. It would be state sponsored two channel tv with no internet access.. ask North Korea or China.
Noone wants a socialist society in the way you're talking about. That word has been (mis)used way too often so any discussion with that word is now almost pointless.

I listened to a Sam Harris podcast recently where he was talking to a dude who raised a fascinating point about the term "affirmative action". When asked, everyone basically says they agree with/support "affirmative action. But when they're asked the same question using a common definition of the term "affirmative action", they tend to disagree.

When it was explained like that I realised that is basically what is happening with pretty much every common term in the political spectrum these days - left, right, socialist, capitalist, progressive, conservative, greeny, corporatist, Nazi, fascist, etc, etc. People use them to reference something that is happening in a particular context (that often mostly only exists inside their own head or within their own closely held filter bubble) and as a result just results in strawman arguments that are nearly totally irrelevant. [edit: it's entirely possible this has been happening for eleventy thousand years and I've only just realised this]

This is a big shame because it disguises the fact that, in reality, it seems increasingly likely that most people are really not that far apart in their opinions of How Things Should Be Done (excluding extremists of course). It creates the appearance of this huge gaping chasm between viewpoints when the reality is probably closer to a small disagreement about numbers or something.

The rest of your post has bugged me for a day or so and I can't figure out why, other than a kneejerk reaction of surprise that Australians would think like that (are you trying to convince us it's OK that you think Trump is good because of your credentials, or yourself?!). But the one thing I'd say it it's obviously far too soon to tell whether or not any of the three things he's done are going to have a net positive effect on the US economy; it will take a while to figure that out. So I'm curious as to why you think these actions he's taken make it "the best thing ever"?
PornoPete
Posts: 3291
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

People use them to reference something that is happening in a particular context (that often mostly only exists inside their own head or within their own closely held filter bubble) and as a result just results in strawman arguments that are nearly totally irrelevant.
other than a kneejerk reaction of surprise that Australians would think like that


teehee.

Noone wants a socialist society in the way you're talking about. That word has been (mis)used way too often so any discussion with that word is now almost pointless.


So when Ocasio-Cortez talks about ending captislism what does she mean exactly?
taggs
Posts: 6569
Location:

What I said the other week when I got all insult-y was really douchy and I regret saying it. I tried to make a point I legitimately believe but in trying to say it I made a real a****** of myself. I'm bowing out of this thread for a while (fpot might be smarter than all of us!?!).

Enjoy all.
PornoPete
Posts: 3292
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Before you do go I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

I listened to a Sam Harris podcast recently where he was talking to a dude who raised a fascinating point about the term "affirmative action". When asked, everyone basically says they agree with/support "affirmative action. But when they're asked the same question using a common definition of the term "affirmative action", they tend to disagree.


I'm pretty confident I know the pod cast this is from.

Why don't you ask trog if he's referring to the discussion with Mr Klein.

Then ask yourself whether or not a discussion of bubbles is being had honestly in that post.
Vash
Posts: 5822
Location:

https://i.imgur.com/RvQZJIN.png
Insom
Posts: 4659
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Could also be the overwhelming evidence that the majority of the media had no interest whatsoever in balanced coverage of their candidate.

it's times like these that surveys ought to come with a free-form, "and what do you mean by that exactly?" follow-up question

it may be arrogant to simply dismiss the views of a group as large as 51% of Republican voters without a fair hearing, but "enemy of the people"? it's such a cartoonishly forceful (and oddly specific) accusation against the press that cannot just have occurred spontaneously to that many people if Trump hadn't said it

not simply biased or prejudiced, but an actual enemy of the people - as though America were actually overwhelmingly conservative and a small elite were desperately trying to convince people that this isn't the case
PornoPete
Posts: 3293
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Vash was really asking for more capitalism all along. Who knew a single tweet could undermine years of posturing?
enjoy a video by an actual economist on the point.

it's times like these that surveys ought to come with a free-form, "and what do you mean by that exactly?" follow-up question

it may be arrogant to simply dismiss the views of a group as large as 51% of Republican voters without a fair hearing, but "enemy of the people"? it's such a cartoonishly forceful (and oddly specific) accusation against the press that cannot just have occurred spontaneously to that many people if Trump hadn't said it

not simply biased or prejudiced, but an actual enemy of the people - as though America were actually overwhelmingly conservative and a small elite were desperately trying to convince people that this isn't the case


Yeah it is oddly specific. but nevertheless look at the results closely.

51% of Republicans agree with the statement. ok, that seems high for a "cartoonishly forceful" statement, I'll agree. But we live in a time, where there is confusion about who qualifies as a nazi. so the fact that it is hyperbolic is neither here nor there.

What is much more interesting, is that if it were the case that it is pure hyperbole, you'd expect to see Republicans, and then everyone else. But you don't. 1 in 4 independents agree with the statement. Are they just sayin in cause trump dun sayed it? or could have something to do with the utter collapse in trust in the media?

It might have something to do with the new york times running a story they claim justice Kavanaugh may have misled Congress when he said he wasn't primarily involved justice Pickering' confirmation when he may have in fact been involved in booking the rooms in which his confirmation took place.

if a paper of record wants to shill for a political party that's their prerogative. But when in the same week they subscribe to a joint editorial in which they extol the virtues of a free press, maybe they should eat the accusation of enemy of the people.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2235
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Vash was really asking for more capitalism all along. Who knew a single tweet could undermine years of posturing?
enjoy a video by an actual economist on the point.

He mostly talks about the netherlands which isn't nordic, what's the point?
PornoPete
Posts: 3294
Location: Melbourne, Victoria


He mostly talks about the netherlands which isn't nordic, what's the point?


He explicitly mentions Denmark within the first minute. and his list of countries includes Norway and Sweden.

So you're factually wrong out of the gates. Well done.

His point, which cuts directly against vash's repeated ad nauseum claim (and your own fractionally more sophisticated versions), is that all of those countries enjoy specifically *private* property rights at least as strong as the United States.

All of those countries are under no illusions about how wealth is generated and it is neoliberal free market capitalism.

The fact that they have welfare programs doesn't undermine that. It also cuts loudly and directly against capitalism is an endless downward spiral.

Most importantly you'll note he is neoliberal and he strangely doesn't say he rejects their welfare policies because "that's socialism and socialism has failed everywhere it's been tried". Notwithstanding Paul "the economy may never recover from Trump" Krugman's opinion.

But I'm sure you didn't need that to be explicitly spelt out to you, you're just asking to make sure we are on the same page.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2236
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I listened to the talk and he does mention Denmark, I think 3-4 times but where is he mentioning Sweeden and Norway? Can you please post a screenshot or the timing of other nordic countries mentioned in the speech?
Jim
Posts: 13763
Location:


He mostly talks about the netherlands which isn't nordic, what's the point?


They employ the nordic model though, I think is the point
PornoPete
Posts: 3295
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Thanks jim, but the he does very clearly state he is talking about the list of countries in the top quartile of that list.

I listened to the talk and he does mention Denmark, I think 3-4 times but where is he mentioning Sweeden and Norway? Can you please post a screenshot or the timing of other nordic countries mentioned in the speech?


The list "socialism works in Europe" is taken from an index of economic freedom and he refers to the top quartile of the list.

Norway and Sweden like I expressly stated are in the top quartile of that list. Seeing as sir redhat can presumably read he can pull his finger out and enter the website on his slide himself.

Or he can childishly pretend the Nordic countries aren't free market capitalist economies, in spite of how they self report. That's open too him too.
infi
Posts: 24127
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Nordic countries don't have wage fixation either.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39640
Location: Other International

Sorry to hijack your question but this started doing the rounds recently on social media. What are your thoughts on the $444 million dollar donation to fix the barrier reef given to a group that didn't ask for it with oil company relations and no legal tender for the grant?
Yeh this is pretty interesting. It sounds kind of lame on the surface. I do think the government should have access to some pool of money they can just hand out randomly with little oversight just in the interests of being able to Get Some Things Done, but this should be obviously limited and carefully scrutinised. edit: I think this is wayyyy too much money for one organisation with no tender process though.

There was an interesting discussion on Hack on JJJ last week about it; they talked about there being a panel of scientists that will be responsible for deciding how the money gets spent, etc.
infi
Posts: 24128
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I think the $444m allocation was obscene. Parliament is supposed to appropriate funds by passing laws. Slush funds for pet projects and pork barrelling are the opposite of that. If you want to hand out money with zero over sight do it with YOUR OWN money.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2238
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Malcom loves pumping money into dumb s***.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-11-20/turnbull-pumps-10m-into-rainmaking-gamble/731004

re: vash tweet, PP, et al
No one is pretending the west of europe is not capitalist.
I've lost track of the argument which was over the original tweet screenshot, which mentioned that the nordic countries have generous welfare states.


Jim
Posts: 13764
Location:

The tweet seems silly in the context of this forum, unless it was Vash just taking the piss out of himself. Would anyone even remotely worth discussing anything with, actually make an argument like that? I'd love to see evidence of someone actually doing what that tweet seems to parody (other than links to Vash's previous posts)
PornoPete
Posts: 3297
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

No one is pretending the west of europe is not capitalist.


Yes but they are pretending the only argument against implementing the so called Nordic model everywhere is people calling the Nordic system socialist.

Which the tweet rather plainly encapsulates.

As the fellow in the video points out it's not clear the Nordic model or European "socialism" is worth adopting, let alone the actual practicality of doing it.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39641
Location: Other International

I think the $444m allocation was obscene. Parliament is supposed to appropriate funds by passing laws. Slush funds for pet projects and pork barrelling are the opposite of that. If you want to hand out money with zero over sight do it with YOUR OWN money.
the "best" part is apparently they didn't even /ask/ for the money!? what does that say about what possible plans they might have for such a huge amount? they're literally going to have to make it up as they go along. why not increase CSIRO funding for reef research or something
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7888
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
It was Lucy's idea.
Nmag
Posts: 1060
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

They say they didn't ask for it, and were surprised or shocked or something but I read somewhere they met with political big wigs weeks prior to the grant. The video above rants about them having a staff of 6 and then goes on to list all these founders who are apparently involved. There is some hype in there. It will be interesting to follow. How does throwing 144m improve the reef? To my understanding the condition of the reef is more reliant on weather.
Spook
Posts: 41159
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
i would think not driving very large ships into the reef is good for it.
Insom
Posts: 4660
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

It’s on

Dutton to get thumped, either now or at the election
Nmag
Posts: 1061
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Aligns with the list of organisations involved.
Vash
Posts: 5823
Location:

Dutton is goneski. A good outcome. Surprising numbers though, i thought Turnbull would be gone
infi
Posts: 24129
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

This is just the beginning. Only 7 votes need to change.
Insom
Posts: 4661
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

eh, not exactly a thumping, but good enough for now
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39643
Location: Other International

Literally just last week Dutton was on JJJ Hack saying he wasn't interested in a leadership challenge at this time.
Nmag
Posts: 1062
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

He was also quoted last week saying he would not rule it out.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7889
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Bill sits back and watches the show.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7890
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
https://s15.postimg.cc/n88spgsuj/Shorten-bradbury.jpg


https://m.betootaadvocate.com/breaking-news/bill-shorten-begins-studying-videos-of-steven-bradburys-2002-olympic-gold-medal-win/
Nmag
Posts: 1063
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Hey I recognise that guy, he's on Penn and Teller.

On the liberal front, Mr Potatohead may challenge for leadership again.
Spook
Posts: 41163
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
enjoying the libs destroying themselves.

good work team!
infi
Posts: 24130
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

libs destroyed themselves when they elected malcolm leader.
Insom
Posts: 4662
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

looks like Dutton has the numbers now

I’d honestly rather have Abbott back. Abbott!
Vash
Posts: 5824
Location:

This is a fantastic show. Both Trump & the LNP self destructing at the same time. Bring on the elections.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 634
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Turnbull is so arrogant and detached that he thinks this coup somehow resulted from manipulation of ministers. The only thing surprising is that such an incompetent and weak leader was allowed to stay in that position for this long. I think he has the even weaker leader Bill Shorten to thank to be honest.
BiKESEAT
Posts: 396
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
The rest of your post has bugged me for a day or so and I can't figure out why, other than a kneejerk reaction of surprise that Australians would think like that


I think it's bugged you because the people most vocal about Trump being bad think that those that did / would vote for him are all slack jawed yokels who are uneducated and backwards.

Out of the 10 engineers I work with, 7 would vote for him, including one guy that's a US citizen.

My point is there is a lot of quiet support for policies like:

Exiting free trade agreements that result in loss of local manufacturing
Tightening immigration policies
Reducing company taxes in order to encourage local business to employ local people
Removing the steady creep of PC nonsense in to our lives
More specific to the US, but a strong foreign policy around middle east and china issues rather than the steady erosion of any strength or conviction under Obama

All these policies are key Trump policies, which he actually has pushed to implement. That's why I, and a lot of other people I know support him. Is he a loud obnoxious dick? Yes, but in terms of the welfare of the country, outcomes and results are a lot more important than having a "nice" personality.

The main stream media does nothing except constantly deride his character, rather than look at what actions he is taking: which are those he promised in his election campaign. Their aim is quite obviously to try and get people to focus only on his character, in the hope he is not reelected.



last edited by BiKESEAT at 16:43:08 23/Aug/18
Scooter
Posts: 6624
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

libs destroyed themselves when they elected malcolm leader.

I agree. They elected him leader but didn't let him lead. He ended up bending over and getting f***ed by the right of his party (long before he became PM), looked a fool and ultimately drove the party to a point that they're so desperate they chose to turn to Dutton, of all people.
Spook
Posts: 41164
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
he was too progressive with his non 1950 ideas.
Scooter
Posts: 6625
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The main stream media does nothing except constantly deride his character


Yeah, wasting their time. He does that himself.

I'm not sure how you can completely separate the man, and his actions, from his policies though. I'm also not sure how anyone is so willing to turn a blind eye to all the rorting he's doing while in office.
I guess people have different priorities though.
paveway
Posts: 21565
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


I agree. They elected him leader but didn't let him lead. He ended up bending over and getting f***ed by the right of his party (long before he became PM), looked a fool and ultimately drove the party to a point that they're so desperate they chose to turn to Dutton, of all people.


Nailed it, lots of the right wing didn't want him in the first place but he had the popularity.

If the libs think this is going to win them the next election they are f***ing kidding themselves
infi
Posts: 24131
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Turnbull is a failed Labor party applicant whose ambition instead lead him to leadership of the Liberal Party. Shame in the backbenchers who put him in power with his high immigration, renewable energy subsidies, gay marriage, Republic agenda, social programs, big deficits.

The people who supported his agenda were never voting Liberal so good riddance.
Spook
Posts: 41165
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
arent all of those things positive things for society?
infi
Posts: 24132
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

arent all of those things positive things for society?


For Labour Green voters yes. Don't resonate well with Liberal voters.
deadlyf
Posts: 4080
Location: Queensland

Exiting free trade agreements that result in loss of local manufacturing
Except his tariffs so far have cost more manufacturing jobs as they have only served to drive up the price of steel in the US making it even cheaper to make s*** overseas and Trump still doesn't understand that Tariffs are paid for by the US and not the country he is putting them on.

The Libs have basically f***ed themselves. I honestly dislike Shorten and think he is one of the three worst politicians in the country alongside Joyce and Abbott but he has basically been gifted the next election by the Libs who have allowed toxicity to fester in their party. Turnbull seriously looks like he is happy this is happening, he has put up with their s*** for too long and has better things to do then try to run a turd of a party.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39646
Location: Other International

I think it's bugged you because the people most vocal about Trump being bad think that those that did / would vote for him are all slack jawed yokels who are uneducated and backwards.
Fair point, but I don't think that's it.

tldr: ultimately I guess I think it's that I feel like character is actually a pretty important feature of humans; someone with good character will make good policies based on good reasons.

I think it's because he's such a horrible specimen of a human being I can't figure out why anyone would vote for him, regardless of what his policies are. He's a lying sack of s*** that is just telling you what you want to hear. He's literally just throwing all sorts of s*** at the wall and some of it is sticking. It's such a f***ing amazing strategy I can't believe noone has tried it yet but I guess until now politicians actually had some limits.

By FAR the most interesting thing left to come out of his presidency, in my opinion, is finding out how long a politician can bald-faced lie to the public before they start catching up with him. In such a position of power it's inevitable that he can get away with it for ages and the distortion field of that power will actually deflect it (or maybe even make some if it come to pass!!), but there simply must be a reckoning at some point.
My point is there is a lot of quiet support for policies like:
Are any of these policies are interesting or controversial? Maybe the trade agreements one, but the jury will be out for YEARS on whether what he's doing with foreign trade is going to be a net positive or negative.

Almost any Republican talking head would have had similar policies and they would have done it without being the sort of horrible person he is.
The main stream media does nothing except constantly deride his character, rather than look at what actions he is taking: which are those he promised in his election campaign. Their aim is quite obviously to try and get people to focus only on his character, in the hope he is not reelected.
I don't know what news you're watching dude. They don't need to deride his character. He literally opens his mouth or mashes his phone and does it himself (haha or he's implicated in MASSIVE CRIME by HIS OWN LAWYER).

Almost everything I read is based on the actions he's been taking. I actually think some are good too! I think the tariff stuff he's done is totally ham-fisted so far but there's certainly rationale behind it with China at least. He originally had a stance on reducing H1Bs which I think would be a good idea but I don't think he's made any progress on that.

In any case it's already clear that his character is not relevant to American voters. He knows it. He f***ing told it to everyone's faces.

The only questions remaining re: his re-election are:
1) from above, whether his lies start catching up with him. I am not sure 4 years is enough time for this to happen.
2) whether the few dramatic changes he's managed to effect (really just the tariffs so far, right?) start having noticable economic impact. Also not sure 4 years is enough for some of them.

I guess maybe whether or not there is some legal fallout too but I find all that staggeringly uninteresting
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39647
Location: Other International

For Labour Green voters yes. Don't resonate well with Liberal voters.
what an odd, but (perhaps unintentionally?) hilarious thing to say
infi
Posts: 24133
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

not sure what you mean
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39648
Location: Other International

What do we think about this Dutton Section 44 thing? ("Federal Labor has legal advice Mr Dutton might be in breach of section 44 of the constitution because of his interests in childcare businesses that receive government subsidies.")

This has only been in the news for the last couple of days, right? Or did it come up way before and I just missed it? The timing seems... coincidental
infi
Posts: 24134
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The change in the childcare arrangements is definitely a problem for him because subsidies are directly paid to providers now. He should sell them.
PornoPete
Posts: 3298
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

haha or he's implicated in MASSIVE CRIME by HIS OWN LAWYER)


Which massive crime is this?

You see taggs. All I ask is that you acknowledge your own bubble before telling everyone else about theirs

someone with good character will make good policies based on good reasons.


I'd like to see a shred of evidence of this. In practice it's the opposite and everyone knows it. Politicians make policies that appeal to people and those people think specifically those politicians have good character as a result. The reality is that you don't get to the sharp end of politics without having a ruthless streak.

. He's a lying sack of s*** that is just telling you what you want to hear. He's literally just throwing all sorts of s*** at the wall and some of it is sticking. It's such a f***ing amazing strategy I can't believe noone has tried it yet but I guess until now politicians actually had some limits.


This is literally delusional. Find me a politician who doesn't routinely do literally all of that.

As for its to soon to tell for Trump economics this is a line I've seen Krugman truck out. It's a liberal dogwhistle which actually means "we were wrong but we can't admit it."

What's even better is this steaming pile of dog s***.

I guess maybe whether or not there is some legal fallout too but I find all that staggeringly uninteresting


Long post for someone who's not interested. What he actually means is he doesn't want to be systematically dismantled and have the brute fact of his own fine bubble living demonstrated to him.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39649
Location: Other International

not sure what you mean
just that one reading of it is that you're saying that Labour/Greens voters tend to vote for things that are positive for society and that Liberals do the opposite (edit: I know this is not what you are saying, but it was just funny in context (edit#2: because many people believe that is actually what happens))
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39650
Location: Other International

The change in the childcare arrangements is definitely a problem for him because subsidies are directly paid to providers now. He should sell them.
sounds like the latest news is that he's in the clear, but now everyone's throwing their hat in the PM ring

Possibly some of the funniest stuff about this are all the completely f***ing clueless Australians (or possibly Russian trolls I guess) that are picking random Peter Duttons on Twitter to hurl abuse at this dude is crushing it

the good news (for me!) is all this s*** is wrecking the dollar
Nmag
Posts: 1064
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


The Trump hatred is strong because of his "actions". I've heard it all now.

PS: I'm still limited to 18,00000000 seconds. Why is that Trog? I sent you a PM with no response.

Your ABC

"The Liberal Party is giving us the messiest leadership challenge in Australian history"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-24/liberals-liberal-spill-fraser-government-1975/10159508

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Labor_Party_leadership_spill,_March_2013

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Labor_Party_leadership_spill,_June_2013


infi
Posts: 24135
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I can understand why the Solicitor General advised there is no breach. Dutton is receiving a payment entitled to any complying Australian by law. It is similar to receiving a Medicare rebate. It is not a benefit to his personal advantage which the Bob Day case related too - he was a landlord to the Commonwealth.

I shorted the dollar yesterday and made about 90 pips. But that is more related to strengthening of the USD - Global markets could not give a toss about Australian politics.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39651
Location: Other International

NEW PM TIME PEOPLE
Insom
Posts: 4663
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

YOINK
BiKESEAT
Posts: 397
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Yeah except they chose the wrong one. Again. Should have been Dutton, he talks a lot of sense.
deadlyf
Posts: 4081
Location: Queensland

Dutton would have been disastrous for their chances at the next election and I'm sure most knew that which is why he isn't PM.

With Morrison at the head the Libs are left hoping that the trouble makers that instigated this like Abbott and Dutton lose their seats at the next election since there is clearly no one with the balls to deal with them directly. The far right faction will continue to be a toxic force in the party driven by the Murdoch media and the threat of One Nation.

IMO Libs are in the same boat as Labor was when Shorten was playing puppet master with Rudd and Gillard. Instability will continue in the party until the narcissists get their way or are driven out.
BiKESEAT
Posts: 398
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
It's supposed to be a conservative party, that's what made it so successful in the Howard era. What we have now is a joke, they may as well be the labour party.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39652
Location: Other International

Dutton would have been disastrous for their chances at the next election and I'm sure most knew that which is why he isn't PM.

With Morrison at the head the Libs are left hoping that the trouble makers that instigated this like Abbott and Dutton lose their seats at the next election since there is clearly no one with the balls to deal with them directly. The far right faction will continue to be a toxic force in the party driven by the Murdoch media and the threat of One Nation.

IMO Libs are in the same boat as Labor was when Shorten was playing puppet master with Rudd and Gillard. Instability will continue in the party until the narcissists get their way or are driven out.
yup. I wonder if they'll ever get to the point where it forks into separate parties?

I am pretty happy that after all this Dutton s*** someone else managed to come out on top
Spook
Posts: 41167
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Scomo is a complete c***.

i hope this ends in complete oblivion for the libs.
Vash
Posts: 5825
Location:

It's no surprise he's not going to call an election. the Libs would be obliterated.
Was impressed by Di Natale's speech. The Greens are pretty much the only party in there who aren't in it for themselves.
infi
Posts: 24136
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Libs need a dose of opposition as punishment for ever giving Turnbull the job. Perhaps a new breed of conservatives can rise from the ashes of the jettisoned MPs.
Viper119
Posts: 3393
Location: Other International

Amazes me that Australia can have such staunchly conservative, religious and dickish people as PM. Scomo, really! And the other choice was Dutton! Boggles the mind. Are they reflective of the country as a whole?

Lolz 100 Of The Best Tweets From This Week's Australian Politics Disaster
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7891
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
The Greens are pretty much the only party in there who aren't in it for themselves.


I don't think the Greens realise that they are 'useful idiots' for the Corpocracy.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2239
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Amazes me that Australia can have such staunchly conservative, religious and dickish people as PM. Scomo, really! And the other choice was Dutton! Boggles the mind. Are they reflective of the country as a whole?

Lolz 100 Of The Best Tweets From This Week's Australian Politics Disaster
https://i.imgur.com/aYY2zJL.jpg

Other than enjoying the liberals eating themselves with some organic quinoa flavoured pinot grigio, the other thing that's been thoroughly enjoyable this week is the simpsons memes.

https://i.imgur.com/0yxschy.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/4rfHMoi.jpg
infi
Posts: 24137
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The good news is there is still plenty of time before the next election for both parties to each have another leadership spill. It's good viewing!
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7892
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
^ not funny
Obes
Posts: 10655
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
that's what made it so successful in the Howard era

Nah, The mining sector was booming it was fat loots for everyone. It took no skill to govern, pork barrel central.
Nmag
Posts: 1065
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Will Julie Bishop go? She looks great in Imperial Star Destroyer Grey

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/12/05/23C29F9800000578-2861764-image-a-18_1417757566613.jpghttp://www.starwarsarchives.com/wp-content/gallery/tesb-sc026-the-empire-in-pursuit/Scn026-Empire-in-Pursuit006.jpg
Spook
Posts: 41168
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
jbish goes alright for an old duck.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7893
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
yeah I'd hit that boney ass
Viper119
Posts: 3395
Location: Other International

Is there a fresh crop of young whippersnappers coming up through the ranks in the parties? Feels like we really need a refresh. I think what France did in that respect is a decent idea to follow. Get the old guard out and get some fresh blood in.

Just to discuss Bikeseat's post, as I think this is an interesting view point.

I understand and agree with attack the argument not the character, however character does inform judgement, decision making and action. So, when your job involves you doing a lot of decision making based on your best judgement, it's valid that your character is called into question. This is no different to how my character can be questioned in my job, albeit on a infinitely smaller scale. Character is routinely examined and questioned in all things, just look at character witnesses or references for one.

Is it really the case his policies here have any real benefit? Or am I brainwashed by liberal media?

Exiting free trade agreements that result in loss of local manufacturing

-> This might not bring local manufacturing back, as automation and other macro trends are removing them anyway. The solution is retraining and new jobs, not prolonging old jobs? It seems to me there's some luddite aspects to this. Or if it does bring jobs back it's at the expense of other jobs. As per the steel / nails example in Oliver's video. Not to mention the various other benefits of free trade, and the negatives of trade wars.

Tightening immigration policies

-> This seems to be rooted in identity politics to me, or racism / xenophobia, depending on your views. Personally, having lived in 3 diff countries now, and still living in a foreign country, I'm all for no borders and global citizenship. Though I can understand being against extremist cultures, I am too.

Reducing company taxes in order to encourage local business to employ local people

-> Is there any evidence this works? I saw articles / data that showed the corporation tax cuts Trump did in the US were used for executive pay outs / bonuses, and hardly any went to employees or employment. There was no employment growth to link to the tax cuts. It seemed to me the whole 'trickle down economics' theory has been debunked.

Removing the steady creep of PC nonsense in to our lives

-> This seems to be rooted in identity politics to me. What PC things are you not happy with? Are you fundamentally against gays, women, certain races, gender fluidity, etc? Personally the only thing I've had some trouble accepting recently is the gender fluidity, but I don't fully understand it and that doesn't overpower my core notion that people should be free to live as they wish, as long as it's not hurting others.

More specific to the US, but a strong foreign policy around middle east and china issues rather than the steady erosion of any strength or conviction under Obama

-> Bit of a minefield this one, is it arguable that the previous outward strength shown under Bush had much real benefit? As opposed to Obama's restraint. The costs are well known, many Americans, and many more civilians, dead and mucho money / resources expended. Though in some ways I suppose that's valuable to them for the military economics and maintaining combat capability. Conceptually I think soft power is just as, if not more useful, than hard power. "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." innit.

I appreciate Oliver is liberal media / comedy, but he doesn't seem to be lying or misreporting anything here.

PornoPete
Posts: 3299
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So, when your job involves you doing a lot of decision making based on your best judgement, it's valid that your character is called into question. This is no different to how my character can be questioned in my job, albeit on a infinitely smaller scale. Character is routinely examined and questioned in all things, just look at character witnesses or references for one.


The point at which the analogy breaksdown, is that there is some reason to believe a character witness has some insight into the persons character. It is not possible to judge a persons character on the strength of micromanaged stage appearances. Their express purpose is to convey a particular message and everything is geared around that (and to obscure personality traits that undermine this image I might add). A Character witness conversely generally has to have known the person they are vouching for personally for over three years (and the longer the better).

Exiting free trade agreements that result in loss of local manufacturing


If this discussion is being had in the absence of Chinese currency manipulation and long running brazen IP theft, its radically incomplete. John Oliver is a late night comedian with an agenda. His video is blocked in Australia, does his video address either of these points? Does his video address which direction capital investment should be flowing in a healthy globalization? I'm going to bet it doesn't.

Tightening immigration policies


This links back into trade and it should be your first stop in providing analysis.
I'm all for no borders and global citizenship.

If you are really for this, you need to acknowledge you are the extremist. The international system has as its core unit nation-states and peace is founded on non-intervention in a foreign countries internal affairs except if very limited circumstances. Like it or not this comes with the concomitant that borders and national identity are real and to be respected.

Reducing company taxes in order to encourage local business to employ local people


you'd need to have some explanation for why wage growth is rising, and why unemployment has been steadily dropping. and it started happening after a program of deregulation and tax cuts.

Removing the steady creep of PC nonsense in to our lives -> This seems to be rooted in identity politics to me. What PC things are you not happy with? Are you fundamentally against gays, women, certain races, gender fluidity, etc?


If you wanted to know why PC nonsense needs to be ferociously argued and beaten that wording couldn't be a more perfect example. I doubt you meant it, but I hope you can appreciate how close that is to "if you don't have anything to hide you have nothing to fear" (full disclosure I don't see a difference).

Here is an 8000 word essay by Francis Fukuyama on why identity politics needs to be burnt at the stake and the earth salted. I note Obama has come out against identity politics recently as well. As has nancy pelosi stressing they need to push an economic focus.

Bit of a minefield this one, is it arguable that the previous outward strength shown under Bush had much real benefit? As opposed to Obama's restraint. The costs are well known, many Americans, and many more civilians, dead and mucho money / resources expended.


Yes but is bush the right comparison? Trump's foreign policy doesn't appear to have had much in common with Bush's, at all. I'd also quietly suggest that civilian deaths is probably not a great yardstick to judge Obama's legacy by, neither Syria nor Libya compare favorably to Iraq and Afghanistan.
infi
Posts: 24138
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Exiting free trade agreements that result in loss of local manufacturing


The problem with "free trade" agreements is that every country sidesteps them with subsidies and unequal tarrifs. Unless every country removes all tarrifs, this is a step by step approach, where America has got ahead of itself and been taken advantage of by China and the EU (and NAFTA). Where countries have gotten angry by America imposing tarrifs, it is actually America just increasing in retaliation to the other country's existing tarrifs.

It's a short-term battle to try and get movement on the larger global tarrifs philosophy.

Tighter immigration policies
?

It is insanity to have porous borders in any welfare society. A national border goes to the essence of national sovereignty. Unrestrained immigration is so regressive, I can see major social upheaval shortly as people get sick of their cultural displacement whilst they are taxed heavily. Europe will be first: Spain, Germany and Italy and France are all awash with immigrants who are being paid for by resident taxpayers. This is making the US very nervous. Up until very recently (mostly) Mexican immigrants have been a welcome addition to US society and culture.


Company Taxes


What is the argument for higher company taxes? Companies pay their profits in dividends to shareholders. Aside from overseas withholding tax the dividends ultimately are taxed in the hands of individual taxpayers, using dividend imputation. I would make company tax 15%, and get the rest from from individuals and super funds when they report their dividend income. This gives company more free cash flow for investment.

Identity politics is the mainstay of the liberal/democrat movement. They are not quitting it any time soon.

I used to watch John Oliver for the jokes; now I grudgingly watch John Oliver to stay current with liberal lunacy. He lives in a typical millionaire Hollywood bubble where ideas sound good but don't work in application.

That in the end is the saddest part of the entertainment industry. It used to be about jokes taking the piss out everyone - now it is one giant sermon from the pulpit. And being offended about jokes against any identity in the protected category.
PornoPete
Posts: 3300
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Identity politics is the mainstay of the liberal/democrat movement. They are not quitting it any time soon.


I disagree. I think Obama stating that the position that someone should not need to be a particular race or gender to have a standing to discuss a topic is a big rebuke. Or at least as big as you're going to get from him.

As they start properly understanding how toxic it is to their electoral chances you'll see them move to more class based issues.

I used to watch John Oliver for the jokes; now I grudgingly watch John Oliver to stay current with liberal lunacy.


The final straw for me was him using a tax dodge Trump pioneered in New York to buy his multimillion dollar apartment. While waffling about underfunded social programs.

He doesn't even pretend to be principled. It's just theatre and nothing more. Theatre carefully designed to tell a certain segment of society what they want to hear.

To be honest he reminds me of Charlize Theron on arrested development.
Nmag
Posts: 1066
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I think it's outrageously ignorant to believe that the information provided by mainstream and social media is adequate to form an assessment of a persons character.
Vash
Posts: 5826
Location:

Federal 2 Party Preferred: L/NP 44 (-5) ALP 56 (+5)


Nice.
Spook
Posts: 41172
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
turn back some of the boats
infi
Posts: 24139
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

turn back some of the boats


What do you mean? The boats are stopped. Kevin Rudd's 50,000 illegal arrivals every year are no more.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 635
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I think Obama stating that the position that someone should not need to be a particular race or gender to have a standing to discuss a topic is a big rebuke. Or at least as big as you're going to get from him.


Then he goes and shows public support for Ramaphosa in South Africa. The guy is either a walking joke or a dangerous propagandist.
Spook
Posts: 41173
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

A boat rocked up just yesterday bro
infi
Posts: 24140
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

one boat.... would you rather 50,000
Spook
Posts: 41174
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Boats were such a minor part of the problem i was never really concerned by them.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39653
Location: Other International

one boat.... would you rather 50,000
was it 50,000 illegal people per year or boats per year? either way is that a real number or an exaggeration for effect? The highest I can find in this report is 25k but that is a big outlier.
infi
Posts: 24141
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

50,000 illegal arrivals in total during the Rudd Gillard Rudd govt.

I think I said 50k per year earlier but I was wrong.

It's a boatload more than the 13 illegal arrivals that have reached australia since Coalition came to power.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39654
Location: Other International

I'm trying to figure out what I think is a reasonable amount of illegal immigration versus how much I'd like the government to spend trying to stop it. Obviously the more they spend the more they can stop, but there has to be a point at which it's just too much to spend. I guess it's probably hard to drill down and get enough data to figure that out.
It is insanity to have porous borders in any welfare society.
FWIW, my visa/residence permit for the UK has a thing on it saying "NO PUBLIC FUNDS". Obviously [genuine] refugees/asylum seekers need some level of support, but it's not like these people (or most legal immigrants for that matter, like I was in both the US and UK) can just turn up into any country with a welfare programme and start taking taxpayer dollars.
Raven
Posts: 9629
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
I'm trying to figure out what I think is a reasonable amount of illegal immigration versus how much I'd like the government to spend trying to stop it. Obviously the more they spend the more they can stop, but there has to be a point at which it's just too much to spend. I guess it's probably hard to drill down and get enough data to figure that out.


It's not the number I object to, it's the method.

The issue I have is that we have people crossing through often as many as a dozen other countries before they get here, but they decide that nah, none of those countries are good enough - they want to get all the way to one of the best countries in the world.

I'd be happy to see a high number if we changed the system - make the system such that you have, say, 20 signatory countries, and if you claim asylum you'll have a very high chance of your claim being accepted - BUT, and this is the bit that has to be done right - the country you're re-settled in will be handled by an appointment system, and you WILL NOT be permitted to be re-settled in the country you claim asylum in. That means that if you want a chance to end up living in Australia, you can't come here and apply for asylum.

Watch as the boats (and, hell, probably most other claims) stop overnight if a policy like this were adopted.

I'd also prefer we see a system where we integrate people in to country communities, not in to populated cities. It really should come with conditions: Unless you meet the requirements for an in-demand skilled work visa, there should be a provision to restrict people from residing in any town of a population over, say, 250,000.
infi
Posts: 24142
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I'm trying to figure out what I think is a reasonable amount of illegal immigration versus how much I'd like the government to spend trying to stop it. Obviously the more they spend the more they can stop, but there has to be a point at which it's just too much to spend. I guess it's probably hard to drill down and get enough data to figure that out. FWIW, my visa/residence permit for the UK has a thing on it saying "NO PUBLIC FUNDS". Obviously [genuine] refugees/asylum seekers need some level of support, but it's not like these people (or most legal immigrants for that matter, like I was in both the US and UK) can just turn up into any country with a welfare programme and start taking taxpayer dollars.


In Australia they do.

"Refugees" can't get welfare on day 1 in any country, but they can Get it in Australia. Just destroy all documentation and throw the dice on the open seas.
PornoPete
Posts: 3301
Location: Melbourne, Victoria


I'd also prefer we see a system where we integrate people in to country communities, not in to populated cities. It really should come with conditions: Unless you meet the requirements for an in-demand skilled work visa, there should be a provision to restrict people from residing in any town of a population over, say, 250,000.


This is way more complex than it looks. Germany tried doing something similar to this and it was a fiasco. It ends up radically changing the demographics faster than the locals can adapt.

It could be made to work if you had some upper limit that was enforced for each town, but as trog points out there comes a point where you can't justify the cost. Cities are better able to deal with pop growth.
infi
Posts: 24144
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

And also there comes a point where the immigrants cannot be physically controlled. They will go where they want to do.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2240
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

And also there comes a point where the immigrants cannot be physically controlled. They will go where they want to do.

Maybe the market can solve it?

We could easily reduce the amount of British coming in and take more people from other countries.
PornoPete
Posts: 3302
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

No I think we should try democratic socialism. What we can do is vote to have you put them up and then you have to.

It's democratic says so in the name
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39656
Location: Other International

In Australia they do.

"Refugees" can't get welfare on day 1 in any country, but they can Get it in Australia. Just destroy all documentation and throw the dice on the open seas.
That looks like it falls under 'some level of support' for 'genuine refugees'. It's not the same as citizen welfare, and if you believe in ANY asylum/refugee programmes presumably you also have to believe in providing them some level of support, right?
And also there comes a point where the immigrants cannot be physically controlled. They will go where they want to do.
For skilled visas that have a regional requirement I imagine they have a process in place to check up on this though, surely? The problem seems to be that the duration for those regional migration visas simply isn't long enough for people to set down roots and decide to stay there as they just keep f***ing off to the cities - but that's not just an immigration problem.

Trying to get and keep people into the regional areas of Australia I think should be a major priority for everyone.
infi
Posts: 24145
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

That looks like it falls under 'some level of support' for 'genuine refugees'. It's not the same as citizen welfare, and if you believe in ANY asylum/refugee programmes presumably you also have to believe in providing them some level of support, right?


I wonder if refugees in Turkey and Jordan get that?

Trying to get and keep people into the regional areas of Australia I think should be a major priority for everyone.


Better they WANT to move there because there is a job and suitable infrastructure. How do mining companies get staff to their remote locations? Ultimately the vast majorty of immigrants will end up in a major city, cities that are already bursting at the seams.

Unless the state governments are going to designate other smaller inland cities like Toowoomba or Ballarat or *shock* Canberra as the new megatropolis 3m+ population centres, there is no way to sustain the current immigrant inflows.
deadlyf
Posts: 4082
Location: Queensland

We need to stop these illegal French women from getting into the country and raising children to be all French and s***.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39657
Location: Other International

I wonder if refugees in Turkey and Jordan get that?
I don't think we should judge our behaviour by that of others. Especially Turkey! Perhaps there's a reason those countries are in the general-purpose mess that they are, and our country is so awesome?!!
Better they WANT to move there because there is a job and suitable infrastructure. How do mining companies get staff to their remote locations? Ultimately the vast majorty of immigrants will end up in a major city, cities that are already bursting at the seams.
Well it's a chicken and egg problem, right? Mining companies can only do it but offering gigantic perks but once the mining has dried up people tend to move back.

The government can at least have a crack at it by making regional living more appealing to Australians. There are a zillion levers they can f*** with.

Anecdote: I was in Tasmania for a holiday a couple weeks back. It's fkn gorgeous and awesome and I couldn't figure out why people aren't flocking their in droves. Stayed at a BnB a bit out of Hobart and the owners happened to be WoW playing gamers, so I talked to them about their Internet - they were on NBN and their Internet totally sucked; I think I clocked it at less than 5Mbit. They also mentioned their biggest problem was power failures. Admittedly this is in a small town but it made me realise that "regional Australia" really can begin an hour out of a capital city before you're suddenly on unreliable power and Internet (and probably water).
Unless the state governments are going to designate other smaller inland cities like Toowoomba or Ballarat or *shock* Canberra as the new megatropolis 3m+ population centres, there is no way to sustain the current immigrant inflows.
Well we've been sustaining something like it it for decades now without civilisation collapsing so I have high hopes for the next decade. The only real question is whether or not our government is going to be continue to be distracted by the s***show of political leadership battles, instead of actually doing their job and providing leadership.

To directly ask: do you think we should have zero immigration? If not, what level of immigration are you comfortable with?

Edit: Asking in the interests of not finding out what our differences are, but what our similarities are. Unless you want zero immigration then I suspect we're probably not far off each other and it's just a numeric difference.

Using the below as reference:

http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/free.nsf/lookupattach/d27d95c7eac6fac8ca2582b20017d8df/$File/Components of annual population growth (a)(b), Australia.GIF
Nmag
Posts: 1067
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I don't mind some immigration and I don't mind being nice to some refugees. A great deal of it is around the ability of our infrastructure to cope with increased load of all population growth. Currently I feel we have a some catching up to do with infrastructure to catch up to our current population. There is the argument around assimilation/integration v's cultural diversity, and all that balance. I recon if we had the infrastructure keeping up with demand, the issues around assimilation/integration v's cultural diversity would be of much less concern than they might appear to be at times. I can think of some instances where assimilation/integration v's cultural diversity were an issue when the infrastructure could easily cope with it, but they were isolated and probbaly get too much air-time in media.

We should be as choosy as we can afford to be.

One thing that makes us different is isolation. We are a long way from others and surrounded by water, if we were attached to Indonesia, there would likely be a huge "wall"... same with NZ.

Also, there are ways to encourage increases in local breeding without relying so much on imports for growth.

I think Julie would probably been the best to take them into election early next year, general popularity wise. No kids apparently, so she has not achieved MILF, or GILF status.
infi
Posts: 24146
Location: Brisbane, Queensland



Given unauthorised maritime arrivals are traveling to our country via numerous other countries I think the comparison to others is very relevant. When we are not processing offshore the pull factor is significant - as Kevin Rudd remonstrated. Refugees in other parts of the world are glad to simply find a place where artillery is not raining down on the heads. Arrivals in Australia are rioting if they cannot get Foxtel and 4g.

The government can at least have a crack at it by making regional living more appealing to Australians. There are a zillion levers they can f*** with.


I don't think the government's lever pulling would be very effective at all (is it ever?). Telling immigrants where to live would be like trying to herd cats into a box. Immigrants will naturally want to converge together when this is regressive as it impedes assimilation (IMHO) - especially when they arrive in large quantities rapidly. Just look at Lakemba.

If not, what level of immigration are you comfortable with?


Half (125k), maybe less. I am more concerned with the quality of the immigrants. They should either be wealthy or skilled. I don't even understand why the government is approving a 250k p.a. intake?.....

Spook
Posts: 41175
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

What a c*** scomo is

https://youtu.be/6KoqacuqBi0
infi
Posts: 24147
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Cringey ABC political comedy. *shudder*
Spook
Posts: 41176
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

100% correct yet.

On one hand proclaims to be christian, but so easily is a complete c*** to fellow humans when money is involved.

This is my least favourite kind of politician, and human.
infi
Posts: 24148
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

You hate on him for preventing another 1200 "refugees" dying at sea. Not very Christian of you.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7895
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
All politicians are c***s Spooky. Just that some are bigger c***s than others.
Spook
Posts: 41177
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Scomo, Tone, Dutton and Corey are all xl c***s guided by god.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 636
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I pretty much hate Scott Morrison but now that lefties are already attacking his faith I'm starting to like him. Can't help yourselves.
Jim
Posts: 13765
Location:

Cringey ABC political comedy. *shudder*


little bit, but some of the lyrics got a chuckle from me. I like that we have the freedom to take the piss out of all hypocritical political and religious figures and their ideas, except the ones we're not allowed to
infi
Posts: 24149
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

be careful taking the piss out of someone who is not white or christian, the ABC will come after you.
PornoPete
Posts: 3303
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah it great how politicians get mocked on the ABC. I'm sure a detailed explanation of why bipartisan policy gets attacked single sidedly will be here any minute.

I don't recall Rudd catching any of this on his sunday church doorstep interviews it's all his policy
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2241
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Yeah Rudd got a free run in the media.

That song wasn't attacking religion.
PornoPete
Posts: 3304
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Well why don't you link to an article not in the Australian which blasts his grotesque displays on church steps and linking it to his refugee policy.

Next link me to a church doorstep interview Morrison has ever done. Ever.

I note Fairfax, I assume unironcially, published Rudd bemoaning leadership instability.

Plus you think I have a problem with people attacking "religion".
Jim
Posts: 13767
Location:

That song wasn't attacking religion.


It's not clear to me why you made that comment, even after re-reading the previous ones again. Nevertheless, if you were to replace Scott Morrison, Jesus and Christianity in that sketch with say, Imran Khan, Mohammad and Islam you can no doubt imagine the s***storm in Australia, let alone the calls for your hanging by bluetick twitteratti elsewhere
infi
Posts: 24150
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Not to mention the Fatwah
PornoPete
Posts: 3305
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Turns out you don't even need to change the religion Jim.

You can change Morrison to Pope Francis and refugees to child sex abuse victims and the NYT will claim you're "weaponizing" child sex abuse.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2242
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I find it hypocritical from leaders of either side of politics to claim they're Christians.

As a head of state, it's highly likely you will send people to kill and be killed. I don't know how you can publicly stand up saying you're following the teachings of Jesus and still hold that position.

edit: let alone all the other s*** that goes against the teachings of jesus.
PornoPete
Posts: 3306
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Very glib redhat.

Have you ever spoken with a Christian about how they reconcile those things?

Jesus didn't preach naive pacifism.
Nmag
Posts: 1068
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

You don't need logic when you have religion.

Lets us pray for science and fact and to shun unproven perceptions.

Amen
Nmag
Posts: 1069
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


"unemployment rate has fallen to its lowest level in almost six years at 5.3% and was expected to further decline in the next couple of years to about 5%"

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/sep/04/westpac-to-pay-35m-fine-for-home-loan-conduct


PornoPete
Posts: 3307
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

You don't need logic when you have religion.

Lets us pray for science and fact and to shun unproven perceptions.

Amen


Yeah but the video isn't a call to shun religious thinking in public life. Its literally the opposite.

But they would of course moan in virtually all other contexts if he was to fail to approach public life in a secular way.

Otto von Bismarck was the undisputed realpoltik and a devout Lutheran. He managed to reconcile the roles.

Paul Keating is a devout Catholic and I'd take him over any sitting politician in a heartbeat.

The greatest leaders of all time to date were all religious. As long as they are secular thinkers and not theocratic there is no reason to think a religious person can't be perfectly effective, and frankly the idea they can't be secular when secular politics is an invention of religious politicians is frankly dumb.
Nmag
Posts: 1070
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I don't think all the people who stand under the roof of a church actually believe in god.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7897
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
The people in the mosque don't either.

Maybe because the punishment for apostasy is death.
Nmag
Posts: 1071
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I don't think they all do either. There would be some who just do it, cause 'that's what we do'. Some who do it because perception is important. True believers, a mix.
PornoPete
Posts: 3308
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I don't think all the people who stand under the roof of a church actually believe in god.


I'm not sure what your point is. The two people I mentioned are well known devouts of their respective faiths. It isn't up for debate.

The fact that some people in a church are fakin it is irrelevant to specific people's faith. It's also irrelevant to whether a person of faith can believe in secular governance.

Secularism is about seperation of state and church not the banning of religious conviction for public servants.
Nmag
Posts: 1072
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I understand some can be devout believers, however I think generally the god loving vote is out there. It's generally good for image.
taggs
Posts: 6570
Location:

Edgy

Edit: goddamnit
PornoPete
Posts: 3309
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I understand some can be devout believers, however I think generally the god loving vote is out there. It's generally good for image.


I really don't understand what you're talking about.

The discussion was whether religious people can take high office without being hypocritical. My answer to that is yes and I think the burden of proof is on someone who says otherwise, as secularism is religious political leaders tool for achieving it. Secularism is not an atheist invention.

Things that are completely irrelevant to that question include:

Some people are nominal Christian/Muslims/other
Some people vote according to their religious scruples
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2243
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


First of all devout catholics can just see a priest and be absolved. Second, nearly everyone just a couple of generation ago had some kind of religion lest they be called a heritic or something.

Back to the original point, Morrison's faith is up for scrutiny when it's obvious he's not secular.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/scott-morrison-vows-to-change-laws-on-religious-freedom-but-won-t-be-a-culture-warrior-pm-20180907-p502da.html


Spook
Posts: 41181
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
i am changing my opinion on ScoMo now he wears a sports cap in all his appearances and he likes the sports balls.

wait, no im not, hes still a complete c***.
taggs
Posts: 6571
Location:

Yep that's a rational appraisal how good is current discourse
PornoPete
Posts: 3310
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

First of all devout catholics can just see a priest and be absolved. Second, nearly everyone just a couple of generation ago had some kind of religion lest they be called a heritic or something.


Third of all the American constitution is secular and was written nearly 300 years ago. Fourth of all the Australian constitution is modelled on it. Fifth of all you start listing the specifically Catholic justification for the capital gains tax. or financial deregulation. Or enterprise bargaining. and if it is just a case of seeing a priest, why is it hypocritical to engage in high-level politics? Seems like they have a built-in justification bro.

Morrison vows to safeguard religious freedom means he is not secular. Yeah ok. You need a dictionary before you comment more. Or you can nail your manifesto to parliament door if thats not dramatic enough for you. Grow up.

Get back to me when he wants to compel a state religion.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7898
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Hey hey stop bagging Scomo, he's going to save our housing bubble!
PornoPete
Posts: 3311
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Hey hey stop bagging Scomo, he's going to save our housing bubble!


Not so hard to raise policy objections.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7899
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
durka durka! Morrison jihad!

https://s22.postimg.cc/hs2lea2ht/Dmi_Ad_AEUYAAe-dm.jpg



last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 11:05:20 09/Sep/18
PornoPete
Posts: 3312
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Oh anonymous Havana man who's definantly not engaging in internal politics tells "journalist" what "journalist" wants to hear.

When the words "my policy on climate change is that God will fix it" come out his mouth, I'll believe it and not a second before.

Morrison also oversaw a drought relief program to farmers as treasurer. So it's not you know excatly accurate to say he simply told farmers the pray.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2244
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Are you a shire boy PP? Why are you so desperate to defend scomo?


https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/683d5a96de6cc66505695cd7f0c2db7933610df4/0_106_2981_1789/master/2981.jpg?width=1200&height=630&quality=85&auto=format&usm=12&fit=crop&crop=faces,entropy&bm=normal&ba=bottom,left&blend64=aHR0cHM6Ly9hc3NldHMuZ3VpbS5jby51ay9pbWFnZXMvb3ZlcmxheXMvZDM1ODZhNWVmNTc4MTc1NmQyMWEzYjYzNWU1MTcxNDEvdGctZGVmYXVsdC5wbmc&s=a15b295cbaf8069c90c2abcc559549c5
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7900
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
holding Tony Abbotts black heart
PornoPete
Posts: 3313
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Are you a shire boy PP? Why are you so desperate to defend scomo?


I'm going to assume you're capable of seeing the light years between your picture and the claim.

I'm not defending scomo perse. I'm attacking feckless morons such as Ballard who've suddenly discovered there may be a politic elements to religion but the in the same breath will lecture on Islamophobia.

The only thing missing from that clip was a bunch of retards dressed as handmaidens. Give it time.
Spook
Posts: 41182
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
lolz

PornoPete
Posts: 3314
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Still waiting for the criticism of the greens senator. Thanks for making my point for me.

I suppose we should congratulate Tom for his courage. He couldn't even mock a Muslim ironically.

I wonder why.
Nmag
Posts: 1073
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Rodney: "I'm not even Muslim Tom".

ABC fails again.
PornoPete
Posts: 3315
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

My favourite part is him sarcastically saying he's never read the Quran or spoken to a Muslim, as though it isn't literally true of him. I'm sure Tommy has spent hours doing both o_O.

I'm sure the research into the Pentecostal church for the refugee song is an epic meditation of comparative theology based on thousands of hours of interviews of Pentecostal evangelicals.
infi
Posts: 24151
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Is there anything on ABC Comedy that isn't "politician grade" cringey?

Hey I wrote this folksy song with the theme of paying out a white religious dude - it's ok to laugh, he's "privileged".
Spook
Posts: 41183
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
i find it both hi-larious and true.

this show is gold.
Spook
Posts: 41185
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Dutton, champion piggy snout in the trough, jobs for the boys, i did nothing wrong, just helping out mates, honest, no privilege.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7901
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Yeh I reckon old chicken-lips and the watermelons are ganging up and are gonna ride Dutto on this until he quits.
infi
Posts: 24152
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


For spook

https://m.betootaadvocate.com/uncategorized/abc-comedy-rolls-the-dice-on-new-show-with-a-white-man-wearing-a-suit-behind-a-desk/


PornoPete
Posts: 3316
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MEQ2v-8CQE


It's much easier mock made up opinions.

The world really needs another government-funded Jon Stewart knockoff.

There is only every other late night host in existence.

The part I really like is the idea vice isn't an openly racist s***stain on journalism.
Spook
Posts: 41186
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
suck s*** Alan Jones
PornoPete
Posts: 3317
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

see I think that falls foul of mighty all knowing ravens rules sweetheart.

turns out it's hard to disagree with someone. Specially when y0 boy is an empty vessel.

Just to make that clear

The days of

"andrew bolt therefore it's over" died in 2015 bitch. too many pundits dun nailed their s*** to the mast.

you f*** heads made your bed. Now you get to lie in it.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7903
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Jones should retire. Surely his hubris is fuelled only by his ego and not money.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39667
Location: Other International

Is there anything on ABC Comedy that isn't "politician grade" cringey?
I think there are two problems:

1) most political comedy is lame and fairly uninsightful, because it's watered down for the masses, so the comedy seems to be generally really low-grade family sitcom style stuff. The Daily Show and Colbert Report are the only political comedy shows I've enjoyed because of the sheer skill and in-depth knowledge of the hosts. A lot of the big names in Australian comedy (although my knowledge is like 4 years out of date now really) are mostly the Wil Anderson giggly types that I simply don't find entertaining.

2) presumably most political comedy is only funny when you're aligned with the general theme of the comedy. e.g., It was easy to like the Daily Show because they dunked on Republicans a lot (though they're an eminently dunkable lot). They did hit on Democrats and everyone else but certainly not to the same degree, and maybe if they had done so more often I might not have enjoyed it as much? Although I'm not sure about that.

Maybe I'm being unfair but I certainly haven't seen any Australian comedy that has "organically surfaced" in my social mediaz (except for those Australien Government ones which are generally great!)

I haven't watched the Daily Show or the Jon Oliver one for ages (it was blocked in the UK so it was too hard to watch); is it still good?
infi
Posts: 24154
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The stand out exception for me is Sammy J. That guy is a genius.
Insom
Posts: 4664
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

ABC could just put Shaun Micallef on a loop
Nmag
Posts: 1074
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I find him entertaining.

https://youtu.be/K8o3WCV4Qho

Viper119
Posts: 3396
Location: Other International

Thanks for the perspective PP, infi. I'll ponder it.

Thoughts on Obama's speech? And the FEAR book?
infi
Posts: 24155
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

There's nothing more ex than an ex politician.
PornoPete
Posts: 3318
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

My view on Obama's speech is that claiming the economy as his work is laughable.

Again for the record I don't see the long term benefit of a trade war. But it is undeniable China manipulates the world trade system.

I also view the WTO's efforts as being largely futile so far. Peter Theil is interesting on this point. There is no compelling reason trade with China should be as lopsided as it is.

The point is you can see the pricing in of the trade wars in the market. They adjust everytime he discusses it. So the idea that Obama has any credible claim to the state of the economy two years after the fact when markets are adjusting literally within minutes is absurd on its face.

here is wapo admitting through visibly gritted teeth trumps policies are working.

As for yet another book which suspiciously tells certain folks exactly what they want to hear. Well I look forward to debating whether the "spirit" of the book is true again. Was entertaining with fire and fury.

*Edit*. While we're sounding out opinion what's yours of how democrats have conducted themselves during Kavanaugh's confirmation hearings?
infi
Posts: 24156
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Two points worth noting: the consequences of economic policies can sometimes take a very long time to manifest, like turning around a cruise liner. Obama can justly try to take credit, if he can link it to a specific policy he enacted. Most US economic policy goes through congress so I am not sure how and President can claim it, unless the idea was theirs to begin with.

Secondly, all major trade blocs, US EU China and Japan are far from free trade - awash in tarrifs and subsidies. Australia and NZ s*** all over them in that respect. Trade is giving China a bit of what they don't like: retaliatory tarrifs. Their response just two weeks ago was to devalue their Yuan. China have a centralised economy they are prepared to weaponise (one that is subject to a massive debt expansion leaving it precariously placed) but the US has an innovation economy filled with booming companies repatriating money and US dollar hegemony in which all resources are denominated.

There is no way China can win a trade war. Their currency cannot usurp the USD because they are still completely corrupt and opaque. The Trade war should be a good reminder to them that their economy is dysfunctional.
PornoPete
Posts: 3319
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

the consequences of economic policies can sometimes take a very long time to manifest, like turning around a cruise liner. Obama can justly try to take credit, if he can link it to a specific policy he enacted. Most US economic policy goes through congress so I am not sure how and President can claim it, unless the idea was theirs to begin with.


*Edit*. I should add I don't think Obama's economic legacy is particularly bad. Coming out if the GFC was always going to be tough on whoever got the office. I also think his reforms around banks were needed to prevent deposit taking institutions blurring into investment banks. But the idea he takes serious credit for growth happening well after his financial reforms while there are obvious candidates which are more proximate is silly. And let's not think he's doing anything other than campaigning. */edit*


Well that's kind of my point. Trump can point to a solid program of deregulation and tax cuts, and the effect can be seen almost instantly in the markets.

And while it can certainly take time for policies to bring about change, I don't think they generally do take that long to start taking effect.

When you look at Australia's deregulation of banks there was an explosion of lending within the year.

Obama like you say would need to point to policy, but would also have to have some plausible explanation as to why his policies really started kicking off after trumps started coming through, and why trump haven't had the effect claimed. I'm yet to hear any of that. Hence his generic claim is laughable.

As far as trade wars go. I accept that it is probably less risky than it seems if the target is China. The trade deficit with China is so lopsided that China's ability to punch back is actually pretty weak.

But there still will be consequences and where the chips finally end up landing seems pretty unclear to me. Hence I said I can't see the long term benefit to it. And even of access to China is unfair throwing tariffs around can't plausibly be claimed to be moving us toward more open trade.
Spook
Posts: 41191
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
ooooh, Scomo (c***) is launching enquiry into old peoples homes.

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE (hey infi).
infi
Posts: 24157
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I am fine with it. Always happy to weed out poor performers. I am not worried in the slightest, the commission is welcome for a tour any day to learn what 5 star living is like.

Hopefully it addresses the massive funding cuts imposed over the past 5 years.
Nmag
Posts: 1075
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Some idiot at work who can't contain them-self when Trump is on ABC News TV at lunch "no longer works here". One of the many allegations provided in statements by colleagues to combat her unlawful dismissal claim was breaching "A-Political Policy".

When TDS (combined with shooting your mouth off) affects your ability to pay your bills.

https://www.mklimited.co.uk/images/customer-images/poppers_opt.jpg
dazedandconfused
Posts: 637
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

“I’ve never bought this idea that the permanent immigration intake is the thing fuelling population growth. Because it’s not borne out in the actual maths,” Mr Morrison said. “When it comes to population growth at the moment, there are 10 extra people that have got on the bus. Just over four of them are temporary migrants. Just under four of them were born here, a natural increase. And only two of them are permanent migrants.”


Scott Morrison confirmed complete retard. 6 is a bigger number than 4 you absolute s***stain.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39668
Location: Other International

I am fine with it. Always happy to weed out poor performers. I am not worried in the slightest, the commission is welcome for a tour any day to learn what 5 star living is like.

Hopefully it addresses the massive funding cuts imposed over the past 5 years.
is this the case for most of the places and (like with most things) there's just a few bad apples that are f***ing it up for everyone?
infi
Posts: 24159
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

is this the case for most of the places and (like with most things) there's just a few bad apples that are f***ing it up for everyone?


Yes the media is full of anecdotal stories but the data suggests incident rate is still really quite low. The consequences of even once case of mistreatment is tragic and naturally evoke a strong emotional reaction.

As with any form of law enforcement and regulation, there will be bad people who do bad things and this cannot be prevented - it can only be punished. But auditing can detect a) the provider's reporting and corrective actions following bad behaviour and b) ensure facilities are properly resourced and have proper procedures and education.

Just as I closely watch the conduct of my childcare provider for my child, families must also closely watch the conduct of aged care providers. But families these days can often see care as a means to spend less time being involved.

I hope those the businesses in it for the money and not for the passion of caring for people are removed one way or another.
Spook
Posts: 41193
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
on point responses infi!
Nmag
Posts: 1076
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

It's no longer Michelle Guthrie's ABC.

https://www.theneweconomy.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Michelle-Guthrie.jpg

From various sources...

Kevin Rudd ✔ @MrKRudd What on earth is the government’s explanation for Michelle Guthrie’s apparent sacking as head of the ABC. The ABC’s future is owned by all Australians.
The secretary of the ABC section of the Community and Public Sector Union, Sinddy Ealy, said the board had done the right thing.
In October last year, Guthrie used a speech at an ABC Friends Public Conference dinner to criticise Marks and other free-to-air television bosses for attempting to deny Australian children "the right to watch Play School and Peppa Pig" through their government lobbying efforts. At the ball she accused Marks of unfairly criticising the ABC. It was, sources say, their first conversation. It turns out Guthrie had good reason to be agitated. The day after the Canberra ball, Milne formally asked her to resign. Sources close to Guthrie say the former Telstra executive nominated her "leadership style" as the main stumbling block. Guthrie responded by saying she didn’t want to resign and would undertake executive coaching to fix the problem. However, it appears Milne had made up his mind. Guthrie was then told she needed to go for three main reasons: low staff morale; her travel to Singapore; and poor feedback from executives working for her.
Pauline Hanson 🇦🇺 ✔ @PaulineHansonOz I hear Michelle Guthrie is looking for a new job and the ABC is looking for a new Managing Director. This seems like a great chance to bring in someone who will help the ABC become more fair and balanced. I nominate @PMOnAir. -PH
Months out from a federal election and halfway through her five-year tenure, the 52-year-old was sacked by ABC chairman Justin Milne, who said in an interview on ABC’s news channel on Monday that he didn’t want to go into the "ins and outs" of the decision yet questioned her “leadership style” and criticised her political relationships in Canberra. Nor will Guthrie be missed by many ABC staff. Veteran radio broadcaster Phillip Adams brutally dismissed her as a charmless and absent manager who had trashed staff morale and infected the ABC with "managerial nonsense".
infi
Posts: 24161
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The ABC does some stuff well: news and investigative journalism. But their political and social activist bias is pathetic.
PornoPete
Posts: 3320
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Heh Tom Ballard endorsed the Victorian Socialists.

Because f***ing of course he did.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39671
Location: Other International

The ABC does some stuff well: news and investigative journalism. But their political and social activist bias is pathetic.
I only read the ABC website so maybe I'm missing some of the so-called bias that is present on TV that some people seem to complain about it. Is there stuff on the website you think they could improve?
infi
Posts: 24162
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Try watching QANDA, Insiders or The Drum sometime.
PornoPete
Posts: 3321
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

To be honest I don't put huge stock in their investigative reporting at the moment.

I watched the Sarah Furgeson 4 corners report into Russian hacking. Utter train wreck is putting it politely.

Just putting out there that there has been no investigative reporting into FISA abuse.

You could run the argument it's US politics. But then what is the compelling reason to report on Russian Hacking by that standard?
Raven
Posts: 9630
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Try watching QANDA, Insiders or The Drum sometime.


I don't see that as bias, I just see that as what we see everywhere repeating over and over: That smart, educated people more frequently end up coming to the conclusion of left-leaning ideas. Right-leaning arguments tends to be ungrounded, irrational and easy to caricature and ridicule because of flaws that and rejection of facts that so frequently plague policies, often pushing selfish agendas.

Unless you want a panel of uneducated or selfish people on Q&A, the simple fact is the arguments are going to regularly go this way with right-leaning guests getting slammed and with egg on their faces. That's not bias, that's just how it is.
PornoPete
Posts: 3322
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Tell yourself what you have to Raven.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 638
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I notice they never had Lauren Southern or Stefan Molyneux on while they were in Australia, or Nigel Farage. I wonder if they'll have Ann Coulter or Gavin McInnes on to wipe the floor with the pseudo-intellectuals they like to trot out.
infi
Posts: 24163
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Lol Raven good one.
Spook
Posts: 41196
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
hah, i enjoyed that post very much, because i agree with it!
Nmag
Posts: 1077
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

ABC employs around 5000 staff.
taggs
Posts: 6574
Location:

What about Emma Alberici's trainwreck tax analysis which confused revenue and taxable income, or Andrew Probyn's unhinged conspiracy theory that has been categorically denied by key participants?

Their investigative journalism has had some shockers in recent times.
PornoPete
Posts: 3323
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

hah, i enjoyed that post very much, because i agree with it!

That kid get back to you about the minimum wage "opportunity". I mean leftwing people being the soul of generosity and all.

Their investigative journalism has had some shockers in recent times.


Yeah the Alberici debacle is a classic example of bureaucracy at work. You'd think the economics editor would have some economic credentials. She had the role because it's on band X and she had years of service y.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39673
Location: Other International

What about Emma Alberici's trainwreck tax analysis which confused revenue and taxable income,
I didn't see the original story that was taken down, only this one. Did she confuse them or conflate them? I can imagine the latter quite easily, being done to make the point that companies just f*** with their revenue/income fields through accounting magic, with the intent of convincing the audience that we should tax the living s*** out of them even harder. Although I think for me at least it has the opposite effect - furthers my questions about if this is the case, why do we bother with company tax on profit at all

edit: also how about the trainwreck that is the current ABC board/leadership shenanigans?! chaos!
infi
Posts: 24164
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Sure not a good look
taggs
Posts: 6575
Location:

No, she fundamentally mistook the two as it was central to her false claim that Australia's largest companies by value hadn't paid tax in 10 years which even ABC internal editorial review judged was wrong and pulled.

Yep, Milne is an idiot.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39674
Location: Other International

No, she fundamentally mistook the two as it was central to her false claim that Australia's largest companies by value hadn't paid tax in 10 years which even ABC internal editorial review judged was wrong and pulled.
but that claim (companies don't pay [corporate] tax) is still present in the other article I linked above?
taggs
Posts: 6576
Location:

I'll see if I can dig up the old one via wayback or something, that article was substantially rewritten iirc.
PornoPete
Posts: 3324
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

The linked article makes it clear they are talking about rolling historical losses forward to offset taxable income. Though it still appears to be confusing revenue with profit.

This article gives a good explanation of the issues with the story.

it makes the obvious point that when talking about avoiding tax pick Qantas which is a loss making business is an objectively stupid example

Indeed she talks about airlines in general which is a famously low profit Industry.

It seems pretty obvious to me she doesn't know what she's talking about.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39675
Location: Other International

I'll see if I can dig up the old one via wayback or something, that article was substantially rewritten iirc.
no biggy. I'm just curious as I've been thinking about this a lot recently and I'm trying to convince myself that corporations tax makes sense by steel manning arguments for it, but the more I do the more I think it's a dated relic that doesn't take into account modern accounting practices that allow companies to fairly trivially and totally legally manipulate their profits so what is even the point of it? that is why I wonder what the ABC article was about; I assume it's a "f*** these guys for avoiding their corporations tax obligations" when I feel like a better approach might be "f*** corporations tax altogether".

then I keep thinking, well you can't just blow it away overnight.. but why not? if we are working under the assumption that the corporations tax game is totally rigged at the pointy end of town (and surely we can all agree that it is, right? even I am doing little things to manipulate my taxable income while contracting), then what purpose is there in gradually phasing it out? can we just burn it down and replace it with (for example) a consumption tax on corporations or a federal payroll tax or increased income tax or something? At the moment corporations tax just feels like more paperwork for small businesses that can't afford accountants or don't understand money (which appears to be almost all of them).

I assume someone, somewhere, has the World's Biggest Excel Spreadsheet that models all this stuff. I'd love to see what it looks like when you start messing with these variables.
infi
Posts: 24165
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

the thing about Company tax is that it accelerates the revenue capturing process for government. In some cases companies can make profits but not declare dividends to their shareholders. They choose to instead retain the profits and reinvest them in the company. This will either result in larger profits later on and thus larger dividends later on or an increasing share price as the capital valuation of the share rises.

This is why the government uses company tax to capture tax on profits generated every year. I can understand the rationale otherwise they will be relying on taxes paid by individuals and super funds from dividends received or capital gains tax on shares sold for a profit.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39676
Location: Other International

the thing about Company tax is that it accelerates the revenue capturing process for government. In some cases companies can make profits but not declare dividends to their shareholders. They choose to instead retain the profits and reinvest them in the company. This will either result in larger profits later on and thus larger dividends later on or an increasing share price as the capital valuation of the share rises.
I can see how it gives the /impression/ of accelerating it but (and I think this was Alberici's point/complaint) when a company can just rejig their finances on an as-needed basis it makes their tax revenue unpredictable at best and unreliable or non-existent at worst. I mean I'm sure their modeling already takes this into account, probably pretty accurately (one would hope).

Whereas if it's more linearly related to their revenue in some meaningful way, at least it's predictable (whether or not the tax is paid by the company, or it simply filters down to citizens via income tax, CGT), and - most importantly, I think, in the context of the ABC article and the public view - it is perceived as being fair (it is clear that the general public do not care that corporations tax is paid on profit only and want to see more money flowing out of them /somehow/).
This is why the government uses company tax to capture tax on profits generated every year. I can understand the rationale otherwise they will be relying on taxes paid by individuals and super funds from dividends received or capital gains tax on shares sold for a profit.
Well I would argue they already do that; individual income tax accounts for the lions share of government revenue. If the company tax is offloaded into the hands of citizens (something which you have argued for!! and I increasingly agree with, but for slightly different reasons) then it simplifies operations for business (one of my primary motivations) and I would imagine increases the predictability of recurring revenue for the government (instead of large random chunks based on whatever the company files in one particular timespan it's coming out of citizens' paycheques regularly as PAYG).
PornoPete
Posts: 3325
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Is there any reason whatsoever to assume that taxing revenue would be more predictable than taxing profit? I can't imagine there would be. Alberici makes the claim that QANTAS, as a loss-making business avoids paying tax. That is straightforwardly factually wrong, tax avoidance is dodging paying tax that is rightfully owed. Treasury and the ATO pullled Alberici up on that exact point. you don't "avoid" tax if you don't make profit because you don't have taxable income. The revised article makes it's slightly clearer that its because they are offsetting historical losses. But I'm waiting(/fully expecting never to hear) to hear a plausible explanation of what's wrong with that.

And by the stats you just posted up, the easily avoidable tax which evil companies never pay is still by a long way the second biggest source of revenue. So people aren't avoiding it that much.

People are moving revenue around at the moment because (entirely sensibly) only profit is taxed. You're kidding yourself if you think tricks can't be played with revenue streams.
taggs
Posts: 6577
Location:

I'll try make sure i respond more fulsomely next week trog but worth considering that companies don't pay tax, people do. What that means is company tax incidence ultimately falls necessarily on these groups: equity, employees and customers. There's no free lunch in taxing corporations (not to say you shouldn't tax corporations, only to say do it eyes wide open).

tax incidence means those that bear the economic burden of a tax are not necessarily those who are legally obligated to pay it.

have a great long weekend all.
infi
Posts: 24166
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

(and I think this was Alberici's point/complaint)


Alberici's crude and ignorant point was that she made reference to companies with high revenues who did not pay tax. Many of the companies she referred to were Australian based. Qantas was a prime example and she alleged that they were skimping on their national duty to pay tax because they had not made a profit in the last financial year. Alberici she did not seem to understand the substantial losses carried forward by Qantas from prior years where they were engaged in mass industrial disputation. Once she made this error I completely switched off from the article because it demonstrated she had economically illiterate. It is also amazing that with the vast resources of the ABC a person of that intellect is all they can scrape together for the position of Economics Editor. Judith Sloan, Robert Gottliebson and Alan Kohler are all far better economics journalists.

Whereas if it's more linearly related to their revenue in some meaningful way, at least it's predictable (whether or not the tax is paid by the company, or it simply filters down to citizens via income tax, CGT), and - most importantly, I think, in the context of the ABC article and the public view - it is perceived as being fair (it is clear that the general public do not care that corporations tax is paid on profit only and want to see more money flowing out of them /somehow/).


Companies are not a magic pudding that can be taxed without consequence. If companies perceive they are being taxed unfairly they close down and move their operations elsewhere (or just close down, and the operators go back to being an employee for someone else, or work in the black economy). I am a supporter of multinational companies paying their fair share of tax and I do agree that tax laws need to be amended so that confected tax avoidance arrangements are not allowed (the two main strategies are transfer pricing and thin capitalisation - and even our great Australian BHP has been accused of transfer pricing). For multinational companies who simply use Australia as a retail outlet I would be very supportive of even introducing a deemed profit margin on their retail turnover. It is not good enough for multinationals to be recording zero Australian profit year after year when we know they are conducting economic activity in Australia. I don't want to underplay the scale of activity and jobs they contribute but when using Australian infrastructure and our safe rule of law and national security, a price must be paid for that. It can be argued they are paying payroll tax and potentially other indirect taxes but without some basic withholding tax in Australia, all profits are essentially of offshored to Ireland, Holland or some other tax shelter.

I do not think these "deeming" rules however should apply to Australian domestic companies aside from the obvious prohibition of tax avoidance arrangements.

Well I would argue they already do that; individual income tax accounts for the lions share of government revenue. If the company tax is offloaded into the hands of citizens (something which you have argued for!! and I increasingly agree with, but for slightly different reasons) then it simplifies operations for business (one of my primary motivations) and I would imagine increases the predictability of recurring revenue for the government


Placing my Treasury Department hat on for a minute, company tax presently contributes about $83 billion in budget revenue. If hypothetically company tax was reduced to zero then that profit would flow to the shareholders, some of whom are foreign. Presently foreign withholding tax (the default tax rate for dividends taken offshore, where the taxpayer chooses not to lodge a tax return) is 10% so the tax take for foreign shareholders would be more than halved.

Secondly as I alluded to above, eradicating company tax would result in the retention of more profits and lower dividend distributions. This in turn boosts the company's balance sheet and in turn its share price, thus allowing shareholders to grow their own personal wealth without paying any tax on that growth from year to year. The only time this net growth in wealth would attract tax is on disposal of the shares by capital gains tax which presently attracts a 50% discount for assets owned for more than one year. It would create a whole new negative gearing style strategy where companies make decisions based on how they can boost their net equity and reduce shareholder dividends - and this would be bad for retirees who rely on that dividend income.

It is a delicate balance between retaining revenue which is essential to the federal budget and stimulating economic investment with a competitive tax rate.
Raven
Posts: 9631
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
That is straightforwardly factually wrong, tax avoidance is dodging paying tax that is rightfully owed.


You don't seem to understand the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion.

Alberici makes the claim that QANTAS, as a loss-making business avoids paying tax.

And it's true, and is probably true for most companies. The statement "avoids paying tax" doesn't imply they avoid paying ANY or ALL tax, it implies they avoid paying SOME tax, and would be unlikely to be untrue.
Nmag
Posts: 1078
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

From what I hear, businesses tend to say that Australia is a bitch of a place to operated in because company taxes and other operating costs are relatively high.

If you don't like these companies, stop buying their stuff.
PornoPete
Posts: 3326
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

You don't seem to understand the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion.


ATO agrees with me chum.

Tax minimisation is what you think I'm talking about.
Raven
Posts: 9632
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
No, they really don't - and though you've provided no evidence to support that claim whatsoever, I'm sure you'll continue to believe whatever you want. Of course, once again, you can't post a single response without resorting to name-calling.

It really is time you were permanently banned from here.
PornoPete
Posts: 3327
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yes they do.

here is their discussion of tax avoidance.

Claiming past losses is absolutely not a contrived scheme to avoid paying tax. It is a perfectly legal and most importantly intended result of the tax system.


This statement was released right after the article.

Tax evasion is criminal tax avoidance may or may not be. Tax avoidance can be perfectly legal but still an obvious unintended outcome of the legislation.

I understand the concept very well because I've been formally educated in tax law.

I'm sorry about being snarky (but quietly note your last substantive post). But the plain fact is she wrongly described the tax system's operation on Qantas and the article was amended to fix it.

Now you could have a debate about rolling historical losses forward but the fact is the impact of a loss on a company probably won't fall into neat tax periods, so I struggle to see the issue.
Nmag
Posts: 1079
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

https://i.imgur.com/ORGQgpM.jpg
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7905
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
RuleofBooKz
Posts: 1674
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

juice media from Melbourne do really fine work. remember when the crazy government wanted to ban satire? Hilarious
Insom
Posts: 4665
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

why do those ads always look lip synched
Phooks
Posts: 3377
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Hello, world
Working backwards from the previous thread over just the last three pages, the following are all examples of what should be bannable offenses irrespective of the poster, the criteria being posts that attack the poster not the argument or the idea: http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9960#9970
You know, now that I've had to go back and generate that list - because I usually just look at posts and don't notice or even look at who the author is - it's pretty clear you'v


Just returning to this lovely thread and had a quick gander at these, glad to see the current discourse is at the same spot it's always been.

I wonder if phooks will be in here soon to detail the very strong link between cruelty to animals and psychopathy. Probably not the resistance ends are justified because the end of the world is here with Nazis.


Yeah I mean sure it's part of the diagnostic criteria for sociopathy/conduct disorder and pretty weird tactic, but this is a specific behaviour to be taken into consideration both for whoever the person/s is, what they did to the animal/s specifically, etc. Unlike patterns of behaviour over tiem lolz gotem

but no worries soon jordan peterson sam harris and alex jones will redpill the deep state, all those PC race-mixing rubble-rousers in black lives matter, feminism, antifa, decolonisation, menslib etc will be DEALT WITH
Phooks
Posts: 3379
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
oh and our doctors are still trying to do stuff with our offshore child torture camps. and since "stopping the boats" we have set a great example in violating international laws and encouraging our regional neighbours to do the same actually increasing refugee problems and working against our own regional peace and security yaaaaay

too bad all those illegals are from s***hole countries and not hot au pairs or white SA farmerz amirite hahah ha

so sad there are no other options
Phooks
Posts: 3380
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Top 10 Tips for Staying Safe from false rape accusations:

If you go to a party, either have only one drink, or only drink soda or water, so you can keep your wits about you. Never get tipsy around people you don't know and trust fully—it could come back to haunt you later. Even around people you fully trust, remember that most false rape allegations come from people you know. Be vigilant!

Use the buddy system, so you always have a witness! Only go to the bathroom with a friend, or ideally with a group of friends. Always have a friend walk you to your car, in case you run into a strange woman in the parking garage. Never go camping or hiking or biking or running or even just walking alone. NEVER go to a bar or concert or party or event alone; that is just asking for it.

If you're going out anywhere, make sure you text the specifics of your plans to at least one or two trusted friends, in case they need to verify your whereabouts to police later. You may also consider using a location sharing app so you have proof of where you were and when.

If you're going to exercise, make sure that you bring a friend, or even better, just exercise at home. Never go through a park alone. There might be a woman there who could accuse you.

When you're heading to class or work, never listen to music or podcasts on headphones. You need to listen carefully to your surroundings to make sure no woman is accusing you of anything.

When you're getting into your car at the end of the day, always check your backseat to make sure there aren't any women hiding back there. Never take shortcuts through alleys or parking lots that aren't extremely well lit, in case a woman is hiding there, waiting to accuse you.

Only take out the trash, walk the dog, get your mail, go to the ATM, or get gas during daylight hours. Most false rape accusations happen at night, and you don't want to become a statistic. If you MUST go out alone at night, make sure to get your phone out of your pocket and start recording video. Grasp the phone between your fingers so it's not obvious, but keep it ready in case a strange woman approaches you.

It's expensive to take Uber or Lyft all the time, I know. But never use public transportation after dark. It's just too risky. Indecent exposure and groping accusations are very common on the subway, and you can easily avoid this by simply taking a cab instead. Protect yourself.

Never rent ground-floor apartments, and make sure you lock all your windows at night, even if it's hot out. You never know if a woman is going to break into your bedroom to accuse you while you are asleep.

Last but not least, even if you follow all these tips, you could still be falsely accused. After all, no matter what steps you take to prevent it, it's simply a fact of life that every year, a low single-digit percentage of rape allegations will turn out to be false, on par with other false allegations of felonies, and that's just a sad truth we all have to live with. You can take precautions, but that's all you can do. Hope this helps.
PornoPete
Posts: 3328
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

The strategic costs of off shore detention include Australia not getting a set on the UN human rights council.

Good to see save the children are focused with laser beam precision on the important stuff.

Why on earth would Australia want to sit on a human rights council headed by Saudi Arabia?

We could sit around condemning Israel all day I guess.

And omg it reduces incentive to join the refugee convention. What Indonesia were just about sign but saw manus island and decided not to join up?

Yeah ok. Makes sense of you ignore 40 years of Indonesian policy in the area.

It's been a while phooks. Welcome back glad to see you were drinking on a Saturday night. A man should blow off steam. When I say man of course I mean self identified non toxic masculized hetero non toxic whiteness shouldn't be reinforced in the ultimately performative exercise of non labour fully cognizant of the variable ethnographies essentially obliberated by competing epistemologies.
infi
Posts: 24167
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

thankfully you qualified that male designation. but you did not preface the use of the word with a trigger warning.
PornoPete
Posts: 3329
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I offer a thousand prayers for your speedy recovery. I will respect your privacy in this difficult time.
infi
Posts: 24168
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

it's ok i will be self-caring in my rainbow cry closet.
hardware
Posts: 11798
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
i'd rather deal with brown ppl than saffas tbh
Nmag
Posts: 1080
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

https://i.imgur.com/dUhQ8cN.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/TeXskOc.jpg
Raven
Posts: 9633
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Perhaps also worth a read: https://www.amazon.com.au/Illustrated-Book-Bad-Arguments-Almossawi/dp/1925106241/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1539141711&sr=8-12&keywords=book+of+arguments
PornoPete
Posts: 3330
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

We can start by auditing this text


I don't see that as bias, I just see that as what we see everywhere repeating over and over: That smart, educated people more frequently end up coming to the conclusion of left-leaning ideas. Right-leaning arguments tends to be ungrounded, irrational and easy to caricature and ridicule because of flaws that and rejection of facts that so frequently plague policies, often pushing selfish agendas.

Unless you want a panel of uneducated or selfish people on Q&A, the simple fact is the arguments are going to regularly go this way with right-leaning guests getting slammed and with egg on their faces. That's not bias, that's just how it is.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2245
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6259015/Its-5-oclock-Scott-Morrison-sips-early-morning-schooner-tours-brewery.html

#istandwithscotty

We should all be free to enjoy breakfast beers without it being reported on.
Nmag
Posts: 1081
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-10/nsw-premier-calls-for-immigration-rethink/10358696

The New South Wales Premier Gladys Berejiklian says she wants immigration to the state halved, warning her Government cannot keep up with the infrastructure demands.

Population increase affecting infrastructure.. blah blah blah



These days, it's PC to say this as even the immigrants from overpopulated 3rd word s*** hole countries are complaining about the lack of infrastructure. 10 years ago it was called racist. Hard to say it's racist when people of all races are asking to improve infrastructure. Infrastructure here is now playing a huge catch up game.

Instead of improving important infrastructure, I remember a government spending epic amounts on building a desalination plant (that does not work) and giving schools a new COLA or music hall, while the maintenance of existing school assets were well known to be behind. Handing out flat rate $900 to most tax payers.. all under the guise of "saving us from the GFC" ... hahaha what a crock of BS... selling minerals to China saved us from the GFC.

I saw a greens poster today "Vote Greens to stop puppy farms". People will do that, they will vote greens to stop puppy farms. With little regard to our infrastructure or immigration rates.

Puppy farms!! They must stop!!

Less puppies, more humans is what we need!!!
Less puppies, more humans is what we need!!!
Less puppies, more humans is what we need!!!

Take to the streets. We need less puppies and more immigrants.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7906
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
MOAR BROWNS!
Nmag
Posts: 1082
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

ABC Fact check

Dick smith comes out with an interview about slowing immigration. ABC fact check result?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/10360438-16x9-220x124.jpgIncorrect.

ABC then have a wall of text explaining Dick's view is pretty much correct however, he said "highest" but we are "3rd" highest, so Dick is incorrect!!!

Average person hears Dick is going to carry on about too much immigration in some ABC TV interview, skims over the concluding "incorrect" graphic on ABC front page, and moves on.
Spook
Posts: 41205
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
#istandwithscotty

despite being awesome and having brekky beers, hes still a complete c*** and a disgrace.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39678
Location: Other International

our biggest billboard
infi
Posts: 24169
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Happy for them to use my taxes to fly them back to their home country. Happy for it to be premium economy even.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 639
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

It's not the kids I have a problem with. It's the fact that we have to house them and bring their criminal parents and their criminal parent's second cousin 3 times removed's dogs as well. That's the left though. Simplify to the absurd and make it about kids when the issue is several thousand times more complex and consequential.
Nmag
Posts: 1083
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

100,000

I'm getting Uber's so quick these days.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2246
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-14/nsw-young-nats-suspend-memberships-amid-alt-right-infiltration/10375014

lol, these guys should have realised you're supposed to hide your love for a white ethno state. They could have flown under the radar that way.
PornoPete
Posts: 3331
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Geez itd be great if all parties could say radical ideology has no place in their forum.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39683
Location: Other International

I'll try make sure i respond more fulsomely next week trog but worth considering that companies don't pay tax, people do. What that means is company tax incidence ultimately falls necessarily on these groups: equity, employees and customers. There's no free lunch in taxing corporations (not to say you shouldn't tax corporations, only to say do it eyes wide open).
Belated reply, sorry.

I actually read your reply with some confusion because I thought I'd addressed that issue, but when I re-read what I wrote, I most obviously didn't. I think I had looked up some of infi's previous posts on the topic where IIRC he basically said the same thing and explained why company tax should be reduced (i.e., specifically because it's people that pay it anyway). I found that a compelling argument and wanted to cite it but I guess I completely forgot to write it or accidentally deleted the paragraph?!

But, in a nutshell, yes. I guess I see company tax as an abstraction layer that we put on top of the people-taxing system, like you say next:
tax incidence means those that bear the economic burden of a tax are not necessarily those who are legally obligated to pay it.
The company tax seems to be a way for us to abstract away the complexity of figuring out which of those stakeholders (equity, employees and customers - although I think I would also add in executives, as they are kinda in a class of their own in large corps) should bear this burden and in what proportion - and then the actual mechanics of doing so (dealing with collecting the money, corrections when updates are made to corporate filings, etc.

I think that complexity can largely be dealt with now with the automation tools we have available, although centralising the risk of errors is hard to pass up on. My finances are way more complicated than the average citizen but pale in comparison to that of a large corporation; I know what a pain in the ass it is to have to deal with corrections when an upstream entity has to file amendments and the thought of inflicting that on citizens is probably enough of a reason alone to have a corp tax.

I still think it would be an interesting modelling exercise to run it through the Giant Spreadsheet of Doom to see what impact it would have on total revenues, possibly with some minor tweaks to the income tax brackets.
PornoPete
Posts: 3332
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

lol, these guys should have realised you're supposed to hide your love for a white ethno state.


much more interesting in the current zeitgeist than company tax is how little of mein kampf you'd have to change to slip past someone's ideological blinkers.

Turns out you can basically do a find replace of chapter 12 of Adolf Hitler's autobiography from "international Jewry" to "patriarchy" and you'll do just fine.
The ABC in-depth coverage is minutes away. We can be assured of that. they've got their best dragonkin on the case. They'll uncover the enemy in our midst. Trust no-one.

I guess we've finally found some common ground redhat. if you keep your longing for a white ethnostate sufficiently coded, the sky's the limit. plus morning browns is something more people should get behind.

but seriously, its funny how the only people who hear the dog whistle politics are the people who denounce dog whistle politics.
infi
Posts: 24170
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

purveyors of the best identity politics.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2247
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Literally dog whistle politics in the senate today. Maybe that ethno state isn't too far off.
PornoPete
Posts: 3333
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

but seriously, its funny how the only people who hear the dog whistle politics are the people who denounce dog whistle politics.


the fellows over at 4chan really do produce fine work.

riddle me this. if the metaphor is that racists speak in a tone that only racists can hear, how can you hear it?
Nmag
Posts: 1084
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Riddle me this. If ABC News posts an Opinion piece and a Story regarding extreme right trying to infiltrate a right wing political party, when will they balance things up by an Opinion piece and a Story about extreme lefts trying to infiltrate a left wing political party?

Are The Australian Greens Party really Communists?

Those are just a few examples of the crossover between these three political movements. The only real difference between the Greens policies and those of the CPA and the Socialist alliance are that the latter two are open and honest about their Marxist doctrine but the Greens aren’t. The Greens try to cloud their hard-Left Marxist ideology with a thin veneer of Green “environmentalism”.
https://www.minds.com/blog/view/809618315281121280

or the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEXLZjMuHI0
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2248
Location: Sydney, New South Wales



the fellows over at 4chan really do produce fine work.

riddle me this. if the metaphor is that racists speak in a tone that only racists can hear, how can you hear it?


Because it's a statement used by white supremacists constantly, you seem smart I'm sure you can figure it out.

Wait, this needs a hashtag, #notallwhitesupremacists?

Riddle me this. If ABC News posts an Opinion piece and a Story regarding extreme right trying to infiltrate a right wing political party, when will they balance things up by an Opinion piece and a Story about extreme lefts trying to infiltrate a left wing political party?


Are you comparing nazis with socialists? ffs
PornoPete
Posts: 3334
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

How do you know that? How do you know what white supremists talk about?

My understanding of the term is that is a troll designed to elicit precisely this:

Literally dog whistle politics in the senate today. Maybe that ethno state isn't too far off.


Looks like 4chan is kicking goals with both feet to me

Next you'll be telling me the ok symbol is a whitepower signal.

The fact that the greens et al reliably respond to this kind of s*** demonstrates its worth.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2249
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Not sure what your argument is other than you like arguing.

Funny that you love defending nazis though.
PornoPete
Posts: 3335
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I'm just saying for someone who definitely isn't a white supremacist you sure seem down with the slang.

Like a lot of people worried about dog whistles only racists can hear.

Funny that you love defending nazis though.


Bless your heart. Go find a single sentence in which I've "defended Nazis".
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2250
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/coalition-backs-pauline-hanson-s-it-s-ok-to-be-white-motion-20181015-p509tw.html
Litterally in the MSM dude.

Geez itd be great if all parties could say radical ideology has no place in their forum.


Defending, diversion, whatever.
PornoPete
Posts: 3336
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Litterally in the MSM dude.


Yeah so a greens senator saying something is white supremacism is literally my point. They need something to distract from how rapey their branch leaders are. Hey lot of male feminists in the greens.

Defending, diversion, whatever.


Yeah so the story was about how Nazis didn't get into the national party.

So thank you for bringing to our attention that the nationals aren't Nazis.

Not quite defending Nazis to acknowledge the bleeding obvious. But you get out there and find the Nazis under the bed mate.
infi
Posts: 24171
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

if you keep that up, you will break his algorithm.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 640
Location: Sydney, New South Wales



Are you comparing nazis with socialists? ffs


Am I missing something here or does redhat not know Nazi is short for national socialists?
Nmag
Posts: 1085
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Are you comparing nazis with socialists? ffs


I didn't say "nazis". I said "extreme left" and "extreme right".

Point being, we can assume some with a biased view will regard "extreme right" as criminal and immoral behaviour, and "extreme left" as law abiding moral behaviour. The more shepherding provided to the flock from sources like ABC the more the flock are likely to bleat this mantra. Conflicting with the flock, I believe there is criminal and immoral behaviour at both ends of the political spectrum. I can understand this may be hard to digest, with the bias and lack of objectivity and all.

I'd like to see the ABC provide the same level of coverage for the criminal and immoral behaviour from the "extreme left" as they provide regarding the "extreme right". ABC has a legal obligation to provide unbiased coverage. They are expected to provide coverage for all Australians, not tailor coverage to market towards their most supporting readers (the left). Guardian (being the most left wing major news publisher) who operate "independently" is well within their rights to tailor coverage to market towards their most supporting readers. To their socialist and communist comrades. ABC is not.

I read lots of local news sources. The cross linking and referencing between ABC and the Guardian is another flag for concern in regards to how the tax funded ABC conducts itself.

Here, have some art.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/10382990-16x9-940x529.jpg
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7907
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
hardware
Posts: 11799
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Am I missing something here or does redhat not know Nazi is short for national socialists?
Yes, but that's a bit like saying that North Korea is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Ostensibly that's the full name; in practice it really isn't.
PornoPete
Posts: 3337
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah but the trouble with that argument is that north korea is socialist. But every socialist will swear black and blue it isn't true socialism.

But even saying the Nazis werent socialists flirts with the true socialism has never been tried trope.

Until I hear a a refutation of Hayek central point in the road to serfdom, they count as socialists in my book.

I read a some history buffs over at the ABC claim they weren't socialist because wait for it. They killed trade unionists.

Trouble with that argument. So did Stalin. So did Mao. And our old mate Kim and Pol pot. And Castro. Well you get the picture.

If you're going to hang your hat on Nazis killed left wing activists you'd need some plausible argument as to why literally every other socialist regime did too.

The typical move is to say oh but they weren't really real socialism.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 641
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Yes, but that's a bit like saying that North Korea is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. Ostensibly that's the full name; in practice it really isn't.


Do you find it curious that it's only totalitarian states that put "Democratic" in their name?
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