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Author
Topic: Political Thread 3
infi
Posts: 24103
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


Should we start a new political thread and potentially run a pool for how many posts until fpot returns?

I enjoyed Trump's style around the Putin meeting. Trump is like smoke, like a greasy pig. Very hard to nail down. This is super frustrating for the Deep State - they don't like a puppet without strings.

I have been enjoying this youtube channel. She reviews the body language of politicians/commentators and sees through all their bulls***.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7n8r27jRnjpYpfyEfBOLFw


system
--
Raven
Posts: 9620
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Honestly, I've lost track of who leans which way because there's so much bats*** crazy in the thread it all just becomes a mush of muddled names. The crazy is on both sides, that's for sure.
PornoPete
Posts: 3256
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

potentially run a pool for how many posts until fpot returns?


Give it a week.

He will *have to* tell us all about the latest proof of a fascist nazi take over of the US/display his total ignorance of how the Nazi's came to power. Probably won't be able to go too long without calling someone a racist either.

The crazy is on both sides, that's for sure.


My personal favourite of the week was the unironically named "thinkprogress" claiming Justice Kavanaugh being appointed to the Supreme Court will end the right to vote.

That's special, and not like special K.
Vash
Posts: 5802
Location:

Bernie laying down the burns

https://i.imgur.com/PdbrpjE.jpg
Insom
Posts: 4657
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I have been enjoying this youtube channel. She reviews the body language of politicians/commentators and sees through all their bulls***.

I was curious, scientific analysis it isn’t, but if red pill punditry with a liberal dose of armchair psychology is your bag then take a look
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7875
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I'd rather s*** in my hands and clap than start another political thread.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 628
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

* N U K E D *

Reason: Off-Topic
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sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7876
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

* N U K E D *

Reason: Off-Topic
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Nmag
Posts: 1040
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I've been trying to tell you for months. I'm fpot!
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39630
Location: Other International

let's see how long we can make this thread go without it turning into everyone just posting 10 minute videos of their various favourite talking heads to rebut other 10 minute videos
Tollaz0r!
Posts: 18541
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I'm just going to pop this here:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-20/pill-testing-splendour-in-the-grass/10008522

Pill (and tablet) testing works, in several ways. It certainly doesn't give the message that it's OK to take drugs leading to more people doing it, which is the major fear of the typical political Right. So there is little reason not to support a policy of pill testing from either major side of government.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 629
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

* N U K E D *

Reason: whining about moderation
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Tollaz0r!
Posts: 18542
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I have been enjoying this youtube channel. She reviews the body language of politicians/commentators and sees through all their bulls***.


My curiosity is peaked, people watching is an enjoyable activity. Political based people watching is pretty boring, most of the more media savvy polies are pretty closed in their vulnerability and shut down most of their expressive body language so it's not as fun and it ends up being mostly making a lot of assumptions to fill the gaps (more so than when people are more free with their expression).
So the curiosity is about what assumptions she is making and if she presents them as factual or not.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39631
Location: Other International

How about instead of discussing the same old stuff, we come up with a base set of rules for a new Political Thread so we can actually try to have a fun and interesting discussion? I enjoy discussing politics (ironically mostly with infi) but lately it's just gotten too adversarial and predictable.

ideas:
- we (roughly) limit conversations to the political news of the day. Sometimes topics will be interesting enough to keep talking about for a while. But there's always something new and there's few of us here that we should be able to discuss them meaningfully in the short term.
- we (roughly) exclude extremist points of view. So much online discussion these days is based on what some nutjob said, regardless of where they sit on the political spectrum. I think this is the biggest problem facing media in general and it'd be nice to have somewhere where we can avoid the Latest Dumb Thing to happen.
- any videos posted need at least one reasonable written sentence of accompaniment per minute of video. I have a weird anti-video bias because they're so f***ing boring to watch. We've always had a "don't just post links without explanation" vibe going on because that's what Twitter is for and I think this is a reasonable requirement; if you want people to sit through a 10 minute video to get some point across you should have to put in enough effort to justify by explaining what's in the video and how it relates to the conversation and your point of view.

Other suggestions appreciated. I have no idea what would work. I do not moderate this forum much any more outside of more or less random cherry picking but happy to spend a bit more effort on it if it will help (re)create a better forum environment.
Raven
Posts: 9621
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Can we tack a rule on to that?

- If your argument needs to resort to insulting the poster for their point of view, their opinion, or stating facts, you're gone. No ifs, not buts, get lost, you're not welcome here. Because this is why people can no longer reveal what they really thing about situations, the people who simply resort to name-calling and personal attacks over a person sharing a point of view, interpretation, opinion or suggestion.
PornoPete
Posts: 3260
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

If your argument needs to resort to insulting the poster for their point of view, their opinion, or stating facts, you're gone. No ifs, not buts, get lost, you're not welcome here.


I'm on board with that if it's applied evenly and we are clear on what constitutes an insult.

As for

we (roughly) exclude extremist points of view. So much online discussion these days is based on what some nutjob said, regardless of where they sit on the political spectrum. I think this is the biggest problem facing media in general and it'd be nice to have somewhere where we can avoid the Latest Dumb Thing to happen.


Can we see an example of extremist points of view?

Finally Godwin's law needs to be enforced with rigour.
Raven
Posts: 9622
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Working backwards from the previous thread over just the last three pages, the following are all examples of what should be bannable offenses irrespective of the poster, the criteria being posts that attack the poster not the argument or the idea:

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=10020#10049

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9990#10018

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9990#10015

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9990#10014

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9990#10002

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9990#9997

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9960#9970

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9960#9966

You know, now that I've had to go back and generate that list - because I usually just look at posts and don't notice or even look at who the author is - it's pretty clear you've been by far the worst offender of this issue.
PornoPete
Posts: 3261
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

You know, now that I've had to go back and generate that list - because I usually just look at posts and don't notice or even look at who the author is - it's pretty clear you've been by far the worst offender of this issue.


So let's just work through an example shall we Raven?

Explain to me why post 9997 is banable and post 9995 which it is plainly and correctly (in perfect accordance with your reasoning for the rule) deriding isn't.

Im perfectly happy to be polite and I'm serious about following the rule. But if people decide they don't want to play that game and they want to play another game well I'm not going to walk the high road.
infi
Posts: 24105
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I agree that personal insults are very unproductive. Some posts are plainly ridiculous and I don't think that it's bannable to simply point out that the content is ridiculous and as a result there is a serious cause for concern about the poster's mental health.
Raven
Posts: 9623
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Explain to me why post 9997 is banable and post 9995 which it is plainly and correctly (in perfect accordance with your reasoning for the rule) deriding isn't.

Because for the examples I've only skimmed over in a basic sense, I've only used examples where people are plainly and clearly making comments about other people in the thread. It's not to say other threads don't fall in to other unacceptable behavior - like just going nuts on the namecalling of other people - but when you look at merely just people calling other participants of the discussion names and labels, they're all covered there. And they're not okay.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7877
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
We'll call it the anti-slagging rule .. or the anti-fpot rule.
PornoPete
Posts: 3262
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Because for the examples I've only skimmed over in a basic sense, I've only used examples where people are plainly and clearly making comments about other people in the thread.


You didn't include a single one of fpot's posts, and he makes no other kind of post.

you did include a post by infi post #100002 which says the following

making history through retardation.


Who was that targeted at?

I'm perfectly happy to defend every single word I post in that thread, and I chose who I insulted carefully. There are two criteria, if you insult people, or if you persist in making ridiculous arguments which have no basis in fact (like true communism has never been tried, or attempting to psychoanalysis someone you have no actual idea about).

Now lets take another example. The US gun control debate. if you're position is that only an uniformed idiot could support the existence of the second amendment, in my book you're insulting people and you should brace for impact. The reality is 5 justices of the supreme court of the united states disagree with you, and let me be further frank, no-one and i mean absolutely no-one on this forum knows more about the organization of public power and the proper checks and balances (which the 2A is) than those people. 4 justices do not, and no-one and I mean absolutely no-one of this forum knows more about the organization of public power and the proper checks and balances (which the 2A is) than those people either. The only reasonable conclusion to draw from that situation is that 1) the debate is dealing with incredibly difficult issues in which there are no easy answers and probably only sub-optimal trade offs; and 2) reasonable minds may disagree.

Now I am yet to see the person on this forum who doesn't appeal to a lazy idiotic stereo type of a gun owner (southerner named Cletus) when discussing this issue on the pro gun control side.

I don't particularly want to discuss gun control (and I am pro gun control for the record), it is an example, but I will say this, if you don't know what heller is and stands for, I don't care about your opinion on the matter, and if you go on to say that rednecks are holding back progress on the issue, I'm going to insult you because you damn well started it.

So I will follow the rule that you suggest because I actually agree more or less completely with your reasoning. but only if we take it seriously.
infi
Posts: 24106
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

In terms of bannable, surely the post must either be grossly offensive or inappropriate personal flaming. General sounding off is what forums are about. Don't be so precious.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7878
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Is 'triggering' likely to result in nukage?
Scooter
Posts: 6619
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I'm offended and feel that being called 'precious' is a personal and direct attack on my person. So ban Infi kthx. Also, fpot hasn't even posted in this thread (yet) and already two people are s***ting on him. I'm not saying he wouldn't be doing the same (lets face it, it's likely) but it's funny you both saying 'but but but fpot!'

What about banning "What-aboutism's" Trog?

Also, if we're not allowed to talk about extremists, does that also rule out politicians that take lumps of coal into Parliament? Or BCC members that live on house boats?
It would have to include media tarts like Bolt and Waleed.

If I say 'Turnbull was a coward for not fully supporting Marriage Equality' and someone echos back 'Yeah, but what about Gillard and Rudd!? they didn't either' (specifically referencing 2 people that have no current skin in the game) then you get a break. Now if there's a Policy that Turnbull and Shorten both have the same views on (kissing Trumps arse) it should be fair play.


The trouble with any/all of these rules (bar a few very minor exceptions) is that there's way too much grey area and you'll have whingers saying "You banned me for my post but theirs is worse!" so you'd have to be willing to put up with selective modding, which I can't imagine is a fun task.

Plus, even though I don't post much, and mainly lurk these days, reading some of the posters screech can be entertaining. It's just not worth joining the conversation because in the thousands of political posts here, you could probably count on 1 hand where someone has changed their view and the other hand where someone has conceded to absolute evidence, without trying to hand wave it and push on with their agenda anyway.
PornoPete
Posts: 3263
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Also, fpot hasn't even posted in this thread (yet) and already two people are s***ting on him. I'm not saying he wouldn't be doing the same (lets face it, it's likely) but it's funny you both saying 'but but but fpot!'


Well let's not pretend he isn't the elephant in the room.

There isn't a single post of his in that last thread that isn't insulting someone. There also isnt a single post of his which deals with a substantive point. It's just a conga line of s*** sprayed at a keyboard, but it doesn't get nuked. I agree it's entertaining to watch some repeat hyperbolic talking points while thinking they've got it going on in political thought. But it's also a primary source of the issue you point out that nobody gets their mind changed.

Hence the statement I'll follow it if it's applied evenly and we are clear on what an insult is.
Nmag
Posts: 1041
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I believe many of fpot's personal attacks were not tolerable, and Trog condoning them was a demonstration of his bias. I think arguing the issue is good but attacking the person is poor form. Towards the end of the last thread I applied some personal attacks, but I recon I suffered far more than I gave out prior to applying insults to where they were coming from.

Even Trog with his term 'dumb'. If he is a moderator, I think he should just stay out of making comments or have another account for it. Having a person who is possibly respected making left wing comments as moderator is the reason I am even here. The balance needs to occur. Naive people need to know that there are intelligent respected people who oppose the views of the moderator and the vocal minority who support socialist and communiast views.

At the extreme end of the 'term' spectrum we have "cuck" and "nazi". There is no need for either. Count up each and I'm confident we will see "nazi" has been applied far more than 'cuck'.

I most likely still have a 18000000 second post limit, with no explanation.

The reason fpot is mentioned is because he was getting away with very inappropriate behaviour. The reason? Because Trog is biased.
infi
Posts: 24107
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Nmag I think you will find with his absence it will be a lot more pleasant around here.

There should be no sacred cows.
G-R0nk
Posts: 37
Location: Sunshine Coast, Queensland
has anyone still got that picture? 8)
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7879
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I'll just leave this bunger here.

PornoPete
Posts: 3264
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Gees he can't go five minutes can he.

The US setting up anti ballistic missile defences in Ukraine is a provocative act, and it's all the US's fault.

Managed not to mention that Russia invaded Ukraine, stole a bunch of land, and shot down a passenger airliner murdering hundreds of people. That's not provocative. Setting up defences of an ally is.

Anyway thank you for your very thoughtful video slaps. Really made me think.
Vash
Posts: 5803
Location:

Chomsky knows the score. Shame he won't be around much longer.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7880
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
^ Achievement Unlocked!
Vash
Posts: 5804
Location:

Glad to be of service. Check out some more of Chomsky's docos. Like manufacturing consent.
PornoPete
Posts: 3265
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

^ Achievement Unlocked!


I loled
BiKESEAT
Posts: 394
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Don't make any rules for a new thread, I had a great time looking every few days for a laugh.

For the record I agree fpot was by far the worst for personal attacks when someone didn't agree with his pc-lbgti-free-money-for-everyone view of the world.
paveway
Posts: 21548
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

You have to be taking the piss raven, fpot was always the one starting the personal attacks
G-R0nk
Posts: 39
Location: Sunshine Coast, Queensland
this looks interesting - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-22/helsinki-underground-tunnel-system-shelter-from-russian-threat/10022486
infi
Posts: 24108
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Is anyone going to Lauren Southern Sunday night in Brisbane? (I am.) Or have you gone to one of the other shows?

Melbourne really seems to attract that loony left protester element.

sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7881
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Everyone calls her a racialist nazi. I just think she is hawt.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 630
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

How about instead of discussing the same old stuff, we come up with a base set of rules for a new Political Thread so we can actually try to have a fun and interesting discussion?


Don't forget to post limit people you don't agree with. Should have been at the top of your list and I'm surprised it wasn't.

In the same vein I am surprised you haven't at least given fpot a perfunctory post limit so you'd at least have the appearance of being unbiased. Same goes with Raven's hilariously cherry-picked list of bannable posts. You guys are absolute works of art.
PornoPete
Posts: 3266
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I just think she is hawt.


Careful you don't want to catch racialist Nazim.
Nmag
Posts: 1042
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Get rekt Raven, this is me quoting Vash or fpot.

http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3488653&startid=9990#10018

I'm not a fan of naming calling in arguments and you will see me explaining that over and over in the thread as insults rain from Trog, Vash, and fpot while Trog condones it.
G-R0nk
Posts: 42
Location: Sunshine Coast, Queensland
https://www.worldgallery.co.uk/art-print/babies-collection-spaghetti-head-82310
Nmag
Posts: 1043
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

https://d3l2rivt3pqnj2.cloudfront.net/i/prints/lg/8/2/82310.jpg
PornoPete
Posts: 3268
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

psychologists diagnose people with trump anxiety disorder.

Absolutely glorious.
infi
Posts: 24113
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I laughed my ass off about that. They are stuck in the "denial" stage of grief.
Nmag
Posts: 1044
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

There was a strong correlation between stress levels and electronic news consumption.
symptoms include feeling a loss of control and helplessness, and fretting about what's happening in the country and spending excessive time on social media
What's been called "Trump Anxiety Disorder" has been on the rise in the months following the election, according to mental-health professionals from across the country who report unusually high levels of politics-related stress in their practices


Interesting article. Would be great to see some video of counselling sessions where the patient describes "feeling triggered". The doctor could ask "But how can he get you here in Australia?" He would certainly recommend reducing the reading and watching of Trump hate content.
Vash
Posts: 5806
Location:

"But how can he get you here in Australia?"


I suppose you missed the part of him threatening Nuclear Armageddon.
It still continues to amaze me how much a blind eye is turned to Trump simply because he's triggering their political opponents.
PornoPete
Posts: 3269
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I suppose you missed the part of him threatening Nuclear Armageddon.


Followed by

It still continues to amaze me how much a blind eye is turned to Trump simply because he's triggering their political opponents.


It's a new rhetorical technique in which you prove you opponents point with out realising it.

Another more plausible explanation is that people like you have spent two years working yourselves into a rich creamy froth of neverending overreaction and you're buying you're own bulls***.
Nmag
Posts: 1045
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Vash, can you please link to the article where he is "threatening" to bring where we live into "Nuclear Armageddon"? Which article are you referring to?

or are you just exaggerating again? Exaggeration won't help with hysteria, we need to keep things in perspective,
infi
Posts: 24115
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Exaggerating Armageddon. Classic TDS symptom.
Scooter
Posts: 6621
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

That's a good question actually, what's the nuclear fallout if the USA was to bomb the s*** out of Iran/N.Korea. How many other allies/countries will it affect?

Also, if you expand 'where we live' to, I don't know, this place we call Earth. Isn't a moot point saying that him not bombing us directly wouldn't affect us? Surely, given our governments track record, any war started by the US is going to have a f***tonne of impact on Australians and our troops? If he does send bombs flying, there's a good chance someone will retaliate. How far can one nutter sitting on the second biggest nuclear arsenal go with his weapons platform?

That's totally putting aside the collateral damage to those countries themselves, which IMO is not something you should put aside. Or do their innocent lives not matter simply because they're not Australians?
dazedandconfused
Posts: 631
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

That's a good question actually, what's the nuclear fallout if the USA was to bomb the s*** out of Iran/N.Korea. How many other allies/countries will it affect?

Also, if you expand 'where we live' to, I don't know, this place we call Earth. Isn't a moot point saying that him not bombing us directly wouldn't affect us? Surely, given our governments track record, any war started by the US is going to have a f***tonne of impact on Australians and our troops? If he does send bombs flying, there's a good chance someone will retaliate. How far can one nutter sitting on the second biggest nuclear arsenal go with his weapons platform?

That's totally putting aside the collateral damage to those countries themselves, which IMO is not something you should put aside. Or do their innocent lives not matter simply because they're not Australians?


You do what they did in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Detonate half a kilometre above ground and minimise fallout.
Vash
Posts: 5807
Location:

Thats right Scooter.
Many a decision the U.S makes, Australia is affected.
There's a reason the doomsday clock is closest to midnight it's been since WW2, and it's because of Trump's presidency
PornoPete
Posts: 3270
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

You're going to be frankly staggered to find out I disagree scooter.

The starting point in any talking of nuclear exchange has to be an assessment of the actual likelihood of it happening and not the fevered dreams of the delusional.

I'm going to make a bold claim. There will be no nuclear exchange with either NK or Iran under Trump.

the talk of nuclear Armageddon is delusional. Full Stop.
Obes
Posts: 10653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
If someone is going to nuke the US they will be throw one at Pine Gap as well.
It is a critical piece of their geolocation and spy satelite network.
infi
Posts: 24117
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

They fly the drone strikes on schools hospitals weddings etc from there too.
Nmag
Posts: 1046
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

There is a reason the doomsday clock is closest to midnight it's been since WW2, and it's because of Trump's presidency


Oh Vash, the clock has been like that way before Trump was around.

Again, Vash, can you link to the article regarding Trump threatening Nuclear Armageddon on Australia? I note that you have not. Are you exaggerating?

Who did he threaten Nuclear Armageddon on? Can you link to that article, if you can't find the one regarding Australia?

If you can't find that article, are you interpreting 'fire and fury' from weeks ago as Nuclear Armageddon?

Come on, post some of the hate-information your news feeds give you. The ones where you circle around and form a bond with other like thinkers in self righteous hatred.

When Pine Gap goes up will that be Nuclear Armageddon?

TDS, it's out there.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dji_82fXcAA1VsQ.jpg
taggs
Posts: 6560
Location:

Scooter you can see real world impacts of nuke detonations using this tool https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

Created by the nuclear science/weapons flair at /r/askhistorians. It's pretty neat.
Scooter
Posts: 6622
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Who did he threaten Nuclear Armageddon on?


North Korea "I have a Bigger Button" is still a live tweet. It was mostly only implied against Iran though, not a literal nuclear threat.
For what it's worth i do agree with PornoPete, I don't think it will actually happen, there's far to many checks that one unhinged person wouldn't be able to pass.

Well, except claiming that his presidency has no affect on Australians. If you believe that you're being obtuse or are rather short sighted. We've already been affected simply as it's given rise to some groups that (totally only IMO) are a determent to where I would like to see Australia go.

It's pretty neat.

Could be worse I guess.
https://i.imgur.com/3Yl0NUf.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/Wh7nmJH.jpg





I wonder what's worse, ramming people with a car or killing 6 and injuring 19.
Still, posting the actions of a random crazy person (Lady ramming her car, or 19 year old going on a mass killing spree) is a pretty poor way to support your political argument. Yes, I get the irony of me posting both the link to the killings and that statement.
PornoPete
Posts: 3271
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

For what it's worth i do agree with PornoPete, I don't think it will actually happen, there's far to many checks that one unhinged person wouldn't be able to pass.


I think the third clause in that sentence is where we part company.

I mean this quite literally, I see no evidence whatsoever that Trump does not fully comprehend the consequences of using nuclear weapons, nor have I ever seen it.

He bloviates on twiiter. But so what. that's pretty much what twiiter is for as far as I can see.

The gap between that and the policy discussions that would actually take place is so massive, no serious person could possibly conflate them. the fact a lot of people do says more about them than Trump (which I note you do say it's not literal).

but this is why I dont think its a good question
Scooter
Posts: 6623
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

So you're saying that everything Trump does, says and acts out in public is... an act? He's playing the 'character' of 'Donald Trump the crazy person'?
While behind closed doors you think he's a more reserved strategist?

Then yes, we most definitely part company there. There's no evidence to suggest that being the case, but plenty of leaks to suggest that he is indeed quite crazy and stupid.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2229
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

When you made a new thread, you should have split it into US politics and the rest.

This latest concentration of power sounds pretty good here.

PornoPete
Posts: 3272
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So you're saying that everything Trump does, says and acts out in public is... an act? He's playing the 'character' of 'Donald Trump the crazy person'?


No I'm saying that the trash talk is genuine and helps make people underestimate him.

I don't particularly care about leaks because as we have now seen the people doing the leaking have their own agendas to push. I'd invite you to examine Andy McCabe on this front.

The reason I don't think he is stupid or crazy is the policy that gets implemented has so far been pretty sound.

NK being an example. As has been his handling of Syria.

And for all the s*** printed about Helsinki policy toward Russia remains strong in terms of sanctions and geopolitical strategy. For example pressuring Germany over the Nord II pipeline puts pressure on Russia.

If you can start pointing to significant policy changes I'm all ears.
infi
Posts: 24118
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Australian intelligence services are monitored by an independent inspector-general.

Disclosing state secrets has always, and will always be an offense so no s*** Sherlock. Don't like that? Go to a country that has no secrets because they have no government.
Insom
Posts: 4658
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

just because you're paranoid doesn't mean Trump isn't after you
Nmag
Posts: 1047
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

".. and he threatened Nuclear Armageddon"

https://abovethelaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/therapists-couch-e1372277484406.jpg

Lets be realistic Vash

https://i.imgur.com/dgHgiLg.gif
Vash
Posts: 5808
Location:

My new hat

https://i.imgur.com/52u0eNh.jpg
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7882
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
PornoPete
Posts: 3273
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Naw bless your little heart vash. Another bunch of books you've never read
Obes
Posts: 10654
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
They fly the drone strikes on schools hospitals weddings etc from there too.

No doubt intended to be sarcastic. But yes they also control drones from there (Snowden + multiple sources). Usually the spy type but they do everything...

There is a reason Australia was excluded from Trumps various trade bans. Trump initially included us, but we suddenly got excluded because...

Keep in mind Canada copped sanctions and they play in their MLB, NBA and MLS... and have open borders.

Pine Gap covers a third of the globe including large chunks of China and Russia. Awesome coverage of the south china sea... you know where the Chinese are deploying large amounts of ordinance.

Clear skys. Right location (Tropic of Capricorn)...

It will be the first thing nuked in Australia.
taggs
Posts: 6561
Location:

Obes isn't wrong re pine gap. I hope people appreciate how hard it is for me to agree with obes.
infi
Posts: 24119
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

No doubt intended to be sarcastic. But yes they also control drones from there (Snowden + multiple sources).


no i was being serious. Pine Gap has a large American population.
PornoPete
Posts: 3274
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Obes isn't wrong re pine gap. I hope people appreciate how hard it is for me to agree with obes.


I appreciate. But. are we talking about NK or China?

Is there some reason pine gap would need a *nuclear strike*? Would China be willing to accept the US retaliation?

Again I will reiterate if anyone is talking as though this is an actual risk it falls to them to show *on policy grounds* why this is a likelihood that should be considered.

If you're going to hitch your wagon to tweets, well I hope you have a good way of getting egg off your face. Though I doubt you know you need it.

Let me amplify the hysterics here.

Can anyone name an official state policy which openly acknowledges a rogue state getting a nuclear weapon? I can. But it ain't trumps policy.

if people want to talk about nuclear game theory well then I think a mighty throat clearing is in order. Because otherwise if you are talking about this now (but said nothing in the past six years about the potential changes to the game theory ), you are without exception a hysterical d*******.
PornoPete
Posts: 3275
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

here is a much more interesting thing to talk about.

Here is an article in which WAPO claims "76% of the claims in a trump speech were false"

Here is a claim that WAPO fact checked:

[Elizabeth Warren] proclaims that she’s of Indian heritage because her mother says she has high cheekbones. That’s her only evidence, that her mother said she had high cheekbones.

False. Although there’s no hard evidence to support Warren’s claim of Native American ancestry, she has cited family lore and not just a stray remark from her mother about her cheekbones.


I urge you to remember WAPO attaches the phrase "democracy dies in darkness" to every page on their website.

Warren claims, but cannot prove, she is native American (i.e. she's not) and has literally referred to her mother's opinion on cheekbones RE native American ancestry.

the claim is by any reasonable standard true. But not according to WAPO.

Trump says something which WAPO ADMITS IN THEIR FACT CHECK WARREN LITERALLY SAID AND GOES ON TO RATE IT AS FALSE. I actually can't think of a more perfect example of doublethink. But remember the #resistance would like to talk about Orwell.

to make that unmistakably clear. That is a paper of record stating that a statement of trump which is irrefutably true is in fact false.

much more interesting

WAPO says President Trump has made 4,229 false or misleading claims in 558 days .


WAPO is distinctly unclear if the claim which is literally true (Warren has literally claimed her mother says they have high cheekbones as proof of Native American ancestry) which they rate as false counts as one of the 4.229 falsehoods. Lets run with the fact the fact that some f***ing retard at WAPO decided to fact check that in the first place as conclusive evidence they did include something that is true in the list of things that trump has said which are false.

Even more interesting vash talks about Orwell (who he has never read) as though its a slam dunk against trump.

anyone who doesn't want to be insulted needs to get serious about this kind of s***. Otherwise, you've proved you don't want to play the civility game.
taggs
Posts: 6562
Location:

I appreciate. But. are we talking about NK or China?


Neither, really.

Pine Gap would get hit as part of a first strike scenario whereby an enemy sought to destroy the US' ability to wage nuclear war (extremely unlikely scenario fwiw). The only state with the capability to do that is Russia. China only has a few hundred nukes (i.e. not enough to plausibly first strike the US) and as I understand it deploys them in a counter-value targeting posture, not a counter-force one.

The link below shows the difference in modelling a 2000 warhead strike (assumed to be a first strike) that hits predominantly US nuclear and military targets vs a 500 warhead strike (assumed to be a second strike) which predominantly hits cities and other areas of economic value.

http://i.imgur.com/Svs8wtu.jpg

source: apparently FEMA, early 90s.

To be clear I think the likelihood of nuclear war is just as unlikely with Trump in office as it was when when he wasn't, i.e. utterly minuscule. I just find it all super interesting.
Nmag
Posts: 1048
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Your research concludes that Vash's "Nuclear Armageddon' claim is unlikely. He's following fake news again.
infi
Posts: 24120
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I would love to take a wager with you Vash on the Nuclear Armageddon. You name the period and amount.
taggs
Posts: 6564
Location:

.
Vash
Posts: 5809
Location:


https://thebulletin.org/sites/default/files/2018%20Doomsday%20Clock%20Statement.pdf

Fake news, anything that you feel might be true but your ego forbids to acknowledge.
PornoPete
Posts: 3276
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Just to quote from the document

Especially in the case of the Iran nuclear deal,
allies are perplexed. While President Trump
has steadfastly opposed the agreement that his
predecessor and US allies negotiated to keep Iran
from developing nuclear weapons, he has never
successfully articulated practical alternatives.
His instruction to Congress in 2017 to legislate a
different approach resulted in a stalemate. The
future of the Iran deal, at this writing, remains
uncertain.


JCPOA was going to "prevent" Iran obtaining nuclear weapons.

By allowing them to enrich nuclear materials, without allowing international inspection and required a regime that is fundamentally dishonest to self report.

There was already evidence Iran was not honouring the deal.

Not to mention freeing up Iran's cash reserves allowed them to become the largest state sponsor of terror inside two years. Oh and conduct a systematic program of destabilization in the middle east.

But leaving the deal was the reckless act.

Yeah tell yourself what you have to guys. Seems like the outcome may have been a little "predetermined".
Nmag
Posts: 1049
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

No Vash, if you would like to link to where he threatens Nuclear Armageddon, please do. By doing so, you are simply linking to news. By creating outrageous claims you are creating fake news. The clock concept is flawed. It implies the clock is ticking, yet the clock can be turned back. Again, fear mongering.
Vash
Posts: 5810
Location:

If you'd like to point your attention to the link i posted, feel free to. Any threat of using Nuclear weapons is basically Nuclear Armageddon due to the cascading effect any such decision would have. But i have a feeling anything you disagree with is 'fake news'
Nmag
Posts: 1050
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

See, we can't argue intelligently when you use absolutes. Consider your use of the the word "Any" for example. It's incorrect, you know it, but it fits your narrative. It's a complete exaggeration and is a false statement. This is 'fake'.

"Any threat of using Nuclear weapons is not Nuclear Armageddon " It's that simple.

You provided a link to a doomsday clock article. He did not "threaten Nuclear Armageddon". Your claim is false. It is fake.
Vash
Posts: 5811
Location:



How Fear Affects Political Ideology. Interesting.
infi
Posts: 24121
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

How safe must Democrats feel to support completely open borders?
Vash
Posts: 5812
Location:

How safe must Democrats feel to support completely open borders?


That's the fear being fed to you. Not even the most left leaning parties support completely open borders.
PornoPete
Posts: 3277
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

That's the fear being fed to you


Says the guy linking to a literal countdown to doomsday.
infi
Posts: 24122
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

no that is a rational examination of the facts
PornoPete
Posts: 3278
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

What a silly Billy I am.

Conflating hyping up the risk of the end of the world and the extinction of the human race with the "politics of fear".

Everyone knows immigration and gay marriage are the things people are really scared of.
Nmag
Posts: 1051
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Says the guy linking to a literal countdown to doomsday.


*mild chuckle*

Not even the most left leaning parties support completely open borders.


That's right, whilst some far-left live in communities without doors or locks, others do live in a regular house with walls, and an entry door with a lock on it.
Vash
Posts: 5813
Location:

no that is a rational examination of the facts


Source?
PornoPete
Posts: 3279
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Well we can't all link to semi-literate animated visualisations of confirmation bias.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 632
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

If an illegal immigrant murders a woman after being arrested and deported 5 times previously in a sanctuary city, does one need a "source" in order to conclude maybe illegal immigrants are a risk to society?
Nmag
Posts: 1052
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


ABC news

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/melbourne-sudanese-families-overcoming-gang-stereotype/10016858

'People don't trust us': What it's like raising Sudanese teenagers in Melbourne


Wall of text with feels and insight into family life contains some facts:

While only a small proportion of overall crime in Victoria is committed by a person from Sudan or South Sudan, crime statistics reveal their rate of offending is six times higher than their numbers in the broader population.
“I think the punishment very soft with the jail. Not strong enough. This is why the kids don’t care and so they end up back inside again. “Because everything is available there — medical, their own bed, their own bathroom, TV, activities. I don’t think there should be TV, no telephone, they should have to do a hard job. “Back home, they sleep on the floor a hundred people in one room, there’s one bucket. Because they knew how hard it was when you were in jail, when you were outside you were never going to do a mistake again.â€


There you have it. Mumma says jail here is luxury compared to where they come from. Incompatible culture?
Vash
Posts: 5814
Location:

If an illegal immigrant murders a woman after being arrested and deported 5 times previously in a sanctuary city, does one need a "source" in order to conclude maybe illegal immigrants are a risk to society?


If an Australian citizen murders a woman after being arrested 5 times previously in a city, does one need a "source" in order to conclude Australian citizens are a risk to society?
Do you realise how dumb it sounds?
PornoPete
Posts: 3280
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Do you realise how dumb it sounds?


Alot less dumb than "omg conservatives are going to trigger nuclear Armageddon plus they can only get elected by using fear".
infi
Posts: 24123
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Vash would you be happy to pay 49% tax to fund immigrants arrivals and resettlements? I want to get clear on how extreme your views are.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 633
Location: Sydney, New South Wales



If an Australian citizen murders a woman after being arrested 5 times previously in a city, does one need a "source" in order to conclude Australian citizens are a risk to society?
Do you realise how dumb it sounds?


You're right, we should stop Australian citizens at the border if they have a criminal record. Oh wait. It's almost as if you deliberately make simplistic and quite frankly stupid arguments.
Vash
Posts: 5815
Location:

Vash would you be happy to pay 49% tax to fund immigrants arrivals and resettlements? I want to get clear on how extreme your views are.


No, because it wouldn't be necessary to raise taxes. Immigrants boost the economy and become tax payers themselves.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7883
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
^ So wouldn't that mean that all a country has to do is let in more immigrants and it will magically become a better more wealthy country?
PornoPete
Posts: 3281
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Holy nuclear Armageddon, that's the fear being fed to you.

Yes all a country has to do let in everyone. That's why no country on earth has an immigration act.
Nmag
Posts: 1053
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Vash, would you agree that:

Not all immigrants are equal

Not all job applicants are equal.

Not all nations are equal.

Not all employers are equal?
Vash
Posts: 5816
Location:

^ So wouldn't that mean that all a country has to do is let in more immigrants and it will magically become a better more wealthy country?


Doesn't mean that at all. Every country needs a healthy amount of immigration, not too much and not too little. As a society becomes more educated and progressive, people have less children, which is when you need to increase immigration to offset the loss in population growth.

But this is talking under the current Capitalist framework which requires never ending growth to keep itself going. Something im sure we can all agree isn't sustainable well into the future.

I agree with all those Nmag, im not sure what your point is though.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7884
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I wonder what the perfect rate of immigration would be to lift Haiti out of sickening poverty?

Vash
Posts: 5817
Location:

Looks like Capitalism failed Haiti.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7885
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
How can you blame something that barely exists?
PornoPete
Posts: 3282
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So Raven

Took us 100 posts to get back here.

Let's talk about your rules of discussion. if you've got some rules that will prevent "capitalism is the root of all evil" I'm all ears.

In the meantime there are two kinds of people, retards who think capitalism is the root of all evil and everyone else.

I'd be interested to hear your opinion on climate change. Because if you think you don't have to hear from climate change skeptics I'd like to hear why I should have to suffer Champagne socialists.

I won't mince my words any argument you can come up with for barring climate change skeptics applies a fortiori to a socialist
taggs
Posts: 6565
Location:

Don't try and engage raven, he just likes chiming in with a "pox on both their houses, i'm a programmer so i could totez organise society" nonsense from time to time.

Having said that, this thread has been dominated by f***ing retards for some time. Dazed and nmag are barely better than vash.

you're better than them porno, call them out when they are being retarded
Vash
Posts: 5818
Location:

you're better than them porno, call them out when they are being retarded


Heh thats funny. The better man disregards the lesser man. Hence why porno is ignored by half the forum. (though that isn't many considering the activity here)
taggs
Posts: 6567
Location:

Vash you are the living, breathing embodiment of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

just shut the f*** up for a bit please. like I also want dazed and nmag to also shut the f*** up. but please, please know you are on their same level of stupid.
PornoPete
Posts: 3283
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

you're better than them porno, call them out when they are being retarded


I'm quite comfortable about where I stand in the order of things.

I've reduced fpot to a gibbering retard while he can't even read my posts.

Don't hate the player Baby.

It's especially enjoyable to know vash thinks he talks about things I don't want him to.
taggs
Posts: 6568
Location:

You know what I'm saying don't roll around with the pigs, you get dirty and the pigs like it. People read this s*** other than vash and his /r/latestagecapitalist stooges. When they go low let's go high. Vash ain't worth debasing yourself for.

That doesn't carry the day.

Edit: appreciate the hypocrisy of telling of telling someone(s) to stfu and then telling someone else to take the high road. I'm a complicated guy.
PornoPete
Posts: 3284
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I disagree.

I think it is important to have people like vash spew their retardation as often as possible.

As he says a bunch of people block my posts. Which is amazing. I'd love to compare notes with people about policy topic they've discussed with high court Judges. For example discussing human rights abuses in North Korea with Michael Kirby. I've done that.

Pretty sure it's not a long list of other people on this forum who've done that.

But lots of folks are apparently walking the high road. Sounds suspiciously like "I don't want to read opinions I don't agree with" to me.

I enjoy the irony of folks like trog who'll jump down your throat about the experts blocking someone like me. It proves a very clear point in mind.
Nmag
Posts: 1054
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Taggs, you should play the topic, not the person, or stfu yourself.
infi
Posts: 24125
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I think it is important to have people like vash spew their retardation as often as possible.


Vash is like this thread's CNN. The more he talks the more he is ridiculed. Keep up the good work!
Vash
Posts: 5819
Location:


Another right wing scare campaign debunked



http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s4821769.htm

PC & Post modernism, cultural marxism is taking over reeeee


PornoPete
Posts: 3285
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Rather than saying ‘I provide the same care to everyone regardless of difference,’ cultural safety means providing care that takes into account Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander peoples’ needs.

— Nursing & Midwifery Board of Australia code of conduct for nurses and code of conduct for midwives, March, 2018


Oh but wait. Debunked maybe isn't the word for that little guy.

Confirmed might be.

Other than medical I wonder what those needs might be....

It's fun watching someone who obviously struggles to tie their own shoelaces talk about lesser men.

And just for kick the definition of cultural safety from the actual code which definately doesn't require an acknowledgement of white privilege.


Cultural safety concept was developed in a First Nations’ context and is the preferred term for nursing and midwifery. Cultural safety is endorsed by the Congress of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Nurses and Midwives (CATSINaM), who emphasise that cultural safety is as important to quality care as clinical safety. However, the “presence or absence of cultural safety is determined by the recipient of care; it is not defined by the caregiver” (CATSINaM, 2014, p. 9).  Cultural safety is a philosophy of practice that is about how a health professional does something, not [just] what they do. It is about how people are treated in society, not about their diversity as such, so its focus is on systemic and structural issues and on the social determinants of health. Cultural safety represents a key philosophical shift from providing care regardless of difference, to care that takes account of peoples’ unique needs. It requires nurses and midwives to undertake an ongoing process of self-reflection and cultural self-awareness, and an acknowledgement of how a nurse’s/midwife’s personal culture impacts on care.  In relation to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander health, cultural safety provides a de-colonising model of practice based on dialogue, communication, power sharing and negotiation, and the acknowledgment of white privilege. These actions are a means to challenge racism at personal and institutional levels, and to establish trust in healthcare encounters (CATSINaM, 2017b, p. 11).  In focusing on clinical interactions, particularly power inequity between patient and health professional, cultural safety calls for a genuine partnership where power is shared between the individuals and cultural groups involved in healthcare. Cultural safety is also relevant to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander health professionals. Non-Indigenous nurses and midwives must address how they create a culturally safe work environment that is free of racism for their Aboriginal and Torres


That was such an epic debunking. When a fact checker doesn't go to the primary documents it's a huge red flag.

So much less
Raven
Posts: 9624
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
You seem to be confusing things I've said with things trog said.

That aside, some of the false-equivalencies and hyperbole in other posts on the last page or so (from both sides/camps) have been rather ridiculous. But it's quite evident we've resorted back to post after post of namecalling and that some people just can't help themselves.
Nmag
Posts: 1055
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I'd support some guidance around our discussion. I don't mean forum moderation, I mean just having a go.

- Avoid name calling and stupid words like "dumb, idiot, retard".
- Avoid some commonly used but offensive terms like "nazi, leftard, cuck, snowflake, racist".
- Avoid grossly exaggerating with absolutes like "all, none, every, never" unless they are accurate.

I'm sure I've broken some of those points but I try not to.

It's understandable that at times, emotion may override the brain and venting occurs. Whilst I don't agree with Vash's and fpots left wing views I don't hate them for it. They mean well, we don't agree... on its goes. I appreciate the left has this 'benevolent' thing, and it is a nice thing. I believe when you do the maths you need worthwhile return on funds and risk, and I don't personally believe the return is there for wide ranging benevolence.

This Trump and American politics gets too much air time. Why can't we discuss more local things?

Why do we give so much money to Indonesia?
Alize`
Posts: 1932
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Well I think donations to Indonesia are to make sure our mining companies continue to have access to Indonesian resources.

Sorry to hijack your question but this started doing the rounds recently on social media. What are your thoughts on the $444 million dollar donation to fix the barrier reef given to a group that didn't ask for it with oil company relations and no legal tender for the grant?

Nmag
Posts: 1056
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I think the grant will be about as effective at preserving the reef, as the carbon tax is in addressing it's 'goals'.
Spook
Posts: 41155
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
i dont know about you, but im enjoying all the salty liberal tears and dummy spits going on today.

delicious!
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7886
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Can we use 'red pilled' and 'blue pilled' terms?

https://s15.postimg.cc/nqef87pp7/The_Oracle16.jpg

https://s15.postimg.cc/7tk8orhej/14x3n2.jpg

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 21:16:55 14/Aug/18
Nmag
Posts: 1057
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

i dont know about you, but i'm enjoying all the salty liberal tears and dummy spits going on today.

delicious!


The accessibility of social media over the last 15 years has given people with gripes, who want more free stuff, an excessive sense of entitlement, and who have a great deal of free time on their hands, to communicate and essentially circle jerk, protected in their safe space by ever increasing political correctness. Not all that different to noisy children in a household wanting more, and throwing tantrums when they don't get it. Vocal minority.

I know adults who struggle to pay their bills, who can't distinguish between 'wants' and 'needs'. When the money runs low, it's the fault of government. Wealthy people are to blame.

In our home we have no net-flicks, no stan, no cable TV. We have multiple houses in the Sydney property market and both drive cars well under 30k each. We studied hard, and worked hard, we chose careers for $$ not love. I work with people who complain they are poor who have all net-flicks, stan, cable TV, and drive 50k cars, do an annual cruise, and then go pay $200 to get fake eyelashes, got to 4 concerts a year, and believe capitalism is the root of all evil. The state of their household finances is not my fault, it is theirs, plain and simple. It is easy for them to blame the successful. The reluctance to take responsibility for their actions is likely the cause of their own financial pain, plain and simple.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7887
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Did you buy pre housing ponzi boom or after?
PornoPete
Posts: 3286
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

$200 to get fake eyelashes


Small price to pay for self-esteem
Raven
Posts: 9625
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
The state of their household finances is not my fault, it is theirs, plain and simple. It is easy for them to blame the successful. The reluctance to take responsibility for their actions is likely the cause of their own financial pain, plain and simple.


None of what you have used in this example is an indicator or supporting evidence of the claim that capitalism either is or isn't a problem or without issue. Whether or not or how they spend their income in this way is completely unrelated to the issues we're seeing with the massive inequality and cost-of-living issues many are seeing.

Mind you, spelling Netflix as "net-flicks" shows an obvious disconnect from society - this is a company with a $150b market cap we're talking about, not some niche company a few hipsters support.

last edited by Raven at 14:21:42 15/Aug/18
PornoPete
Posts: 3287
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

None of what you have used in this example is an indicator or supporting evidence of the claim that capitalism either is or isn't a problem or without issue.


Not what he wrote.
Whether or not or how they spend their income in this way is completely unrelated to the issues we're seeing with the massive inequality and cost-of-living issues many are seeing.


I don't think you can separate competent handling of personal finances from "cost-of-living" as easily as that.

The complaint he is plainly making is people with high discretionary spending habits (ie enjoying the fruits of capitalism) whining about capitalism.

It doesn't follow that there are no problems whatsoever with the housing market.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2233
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


In our home we have no net-flicks, no stan, no cable TV. We have multiple houses in the Sydney property market
https://i.imgur.com/XaFZvGb.png

This account is so good
edit:
PS: Remember when Pauline was the biggest racist in Aus political landscape?

Yeah make Australia great again, lets go back to those good old days.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-15/anning-speech-sets-up-battleground-between-katter-and-hanson/10123208
PornoPete
Posts: 3288
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

But how will you show everyone you're not racist redhat?
Vash
Posts: 5820
Location:

https://i.imgur.com/NhsS9l5.png

Oh dear.
Raven
Posts: 9626
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Information and education has always been an enemy to the church. Given that republicans are more typically that way aligned, that shouldn't be a surprise they'd be against anything that may reveal the bad things they do.
PornoPete
Posts: 3289
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah could be that.

Could also be the overwhelming evidence that the majority of the media had no interest whatsoever in balanced coverage of their candidate.

like for example fact checking as false a literal quote of Elisabeth Warren.

in which Warren explains her family have high cheekbones "like the Indians do"

But let's revisit this "no insults" rule shall we Raven.

Do you think your post is an insult or not?

Some people might think implying that a whole group of people are living in self ordained ignorance and are angry that the bubble is being poked as opposed them having a coherent political philosophy qualifies as an insult.

Just sayin'
Vash
Posts: 5821
Location:



Indeed Raven
Raven
Posts: 9627
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
You still having a sook because you got called out on numerous posts within just a few pages of actually explicitly targeted name-calling at individuals?
PornoPete
Posts: 3290
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

If that's your reading of that passage of posts, but I think close examination might reveal a different interpretation. But no that's not what I'm doing.

I'm pointing out the fact you bemoan people not expressing their opinion because they get insulted and then rely on a tired, lazy and provably wrong stereotype.

I can see why that might touch a nerve.
BiKESEAT
Posts: 395
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
The irony is if we did have a socialist society these morons wouldn't be having their $200 eyebrow dye jobs and streaming media galore. It would be state sponsored two channel tv with no internet access.. ask North Korea or China.

In other news, Trump is by far the best thing that's ever happened to the US and I wish we could have similar here.

I, along with most of my peers, are university educated, with decent incomes and net worth's, and all of us agree what he has done for the US would be fantastic here. Reducing company tax rates, leaving the stupid paris agreement, bringing manufacturing and jobs back by leaving one sided trade agreements.

Nmag
Posts: 1058
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Like most people, like generations before ours, when we purchased our first house we had to:
- Move 'away'.. further 'out' to a rougher nastier neighbourhood
- Buy a place that was worse than what we grew up in, and was worse that what we rented
- Make s*** loads of sacrifice to get the deposit
- Once purchased, make s*** loads of sacrifice to pay mortgage that was higher than paying rent
- To know that you have liability. You can't just take off and go rent again. This thing needs to be payed off for about 10 years to break even if you wanted to pull out of deal.

All these issues were there then, and still apply. The market was easier then, and it was easier each decade previous.

The trend is likely to continue, unless implosion. It is tough now, but it's over rated to think it was sooo much easier back then.

It was soo much easier in my parent's time, and it's likely to be soooo much harder for generations to come.

About half the people I know my age still rent. Buying isn't for everyone. Some like shares instead of property. Some like the flexibility of renting. Many had to move out of Sydney to buy, and say themselves, they could never afford to move back into the market, that was 10-15 years ago. There are lots of regional towns with lots of jobs with lower priced property in NSW. Sydney is a mess anyway. It's overloaded infrastructure.. with unit blocks going up rapidly. It's been wild.

The thing that will bite a new home buyer now, more than the wages slowing, is the banks holding back lending too much to people who can't pay it off. They offered an outrageous amount to us more than a decade ago and it was pretty shocking. We didn't use what they were offering, it was scary... the risk. but they don't care, and I'm sure many people are way in over their heads. When these interest rates go up, and then start creeping up, could be lots of defaulting happening.

Raven, I'm not really into marketing, and how brands like to use sexie spellin' to whore tha warz. Stuff nflikxz. It's the small recurring unnecessary little luxuries that generally add up to more than the 'larger' costs in a household budget. How about, personalised plates, getting nails done, registering 3 cars and two motor bikes for one person, choosing to live alone, 'cause it's nice'. Pets, hobbies, holidays,... latest iphone, run aircon day and night, eating out often.. daily $4 coffees. It all adds up.

We will be out of the game when we sell a house this year, and then we just have our home. Media typically runs stories about tenants getting a bad deal. Ask a landlord for some horror stories. Contrary to media hype, the NSW rental bond board tribunal tends to favour the tenant regardless the news you read. The things tenants can do to a house in a lower socioeconomic area, and get away with it are fascinating.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39639
Location: Other International

The irony is if we did have a socialist society these morons wouldn't be having their $200 eyebrow dye jobs and streaming media galore. It would be state sponsored two channel tv with no internet access.. ask North Korea or China.
Noone wants a socialist society in the way you're talking about. That word has been (mis)used way too often so any discussion with that word is now almost pointless.

I listened to a Sam Harris podcast recently where he was talking to a dude who raised a fascinating point about the term "affirmative action". When asked, everyone basically says they agree with/support "affirmative action. But when they're asked the same question using a common definition of the term "affirmative action", they tend to disagree.

When it was explained like that I realised that is basically what is happening with pretty much every common term in the political spectrum these days - left, right, socialist, capitalist, progressive, conservative, greeny, corporatist, Nazi, fascist, etc, etc. People use them to reference something that is happening in a particular context (that often mostly only exists inside their own head or within their own closely held filter bubble) and as a result just results in strawman arguments that are nearly totally irrelevant. [edit: it's entirely possible this has been happening for eleventy thousand years and I've only just realised this]

This is a big shame because it disguises the fact that, in reality, it seems increasingly likely that most people are really not that far apart in their opinions of How Things Should Be Done (excluding extremists of course). It creates the appearance of this huge gaping chasm between viewpoints when the reality is probably closer to a small disagreement about numbers or something.

The rest of your post has bugged me for a day or so and I can't figure out why, other than a kneejerk reaction of surprise that Australians would think like that (are you trying to convince us it's OK that you think Trump is good because of your credentials, or yourself?!). But the one thing I'd say it it's obviously far too soon to tell whether or not any of the three things he's done are going to have a net positive effect on the US economy; it will take a while to figure that out. So I'm curious as to why you think these actions he's taken make it "the best thing ever"?
PornoPete
Posts: 3291
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

People use them to reference something that is happening in a particular context (that often mostly only exists inside their own head or within their own closely held filter bubble) and as a result just results in strawman arguments that are nearly totally irrelevant.
other than a kneejerk reaction of surprise that Australians would think like that


teehee.

Noone wants a socialist society in the way you're talking about. That word has been (mis)used way too often so any discussion with that word is now almost pointless.


So when Ocasio-Cortez talks about ending captislism what does she mean exactly?
taggs
Posts: 6569
Location:

What I said the other week when I got all insult-y was really douchy and I regret saying it. I tried to make a point I legitimately believe but in trying to say it I made a real a****** of myself. I'm bowing out of this thread for a while (fpot might be smarter than all of us!?!).

Enjoy all.
PornoPete
Posts: 3292
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Before you do go I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

I listened to a Sam Harris podcast recently where he was talking to a dude who raised a fascinating point about the term "affirmative action". When asked, everyone basically says they agree with/support "affirmative action. But when they're asked the same question using a common definition of the term "affirmative action", they tend to disagree.


I'm pretty confident I know the pod cast this is from.

Why don't you ask trog if he's referring to the discussion with Mr Klein.

Then ask yourself whether or not a discussion of bubbles is being had honestly in that post.
Vash
Posts: 5822
Location:

https://i.imgur.com/RvQZJIN.png
Insom
Posts: 4659
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Could also be the overwhelming evidence that the majority of the media had no interest whatsoever in balanced coverage of their candidate.

it's times like these that surveys ought to come with a free-form, "and what do you mean by that exactly?" follow-up question

it may be arrogant to simply dismiss the views of a group as large as 51% of Republican voters without a fair hearing, but "enemy of the people"? it's such a cartoonishly forceful (and oddly specific) accusation against the press that cannot just have occurred spontaneously to that many people if Trump hadn't said it

not simply biased or prejudiced, but an actual enemy of the people - as though America were actually overwhelmingly conservative and a small elite were desperately trying to convince people that this isn't the case
PornoPete
Posts: 3293
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Vash was really asking for more capitalism all along. Who knew a single tweet could undermine years of posturing?
enjoy a video by an actual economist on the point.

it's times like these that surveys ought to come with a free-form, "and what do you mean by that exactly?" follow-up question

it may be arrogant to simply dismiss the views of a group as large as 51% of Republican voters without a fair hearing, but "enemy of the people"? it's such a cartoonishly forceful (and oddly specific) accusation against the press that cannot just have occurred spontaneously to that many people if Trump hadn't said it

not simply biased or prejudiced, but an actual enemy of the people - as though America were actually overwhelmingly conservative and a small elite were desperately trying to convince people that this isn't the case


Yeah it is oddly specific. but nevertheless look at the results closely.

51% of Republicans agree with the statement. ok, that seems high for a "cartoonishly forceful" statement, I'll agree. But we live in a time, where there is confusion about who qualifies as a nazi. so the fact that it is hyperbolic is neither here nor there.

What is much more interesting, is that if it were the case that it is pure hyperbole, you'd expect to see Republicans, and then everyone else. But you don't. 1 in 4 independents agree with the statement. Are they just sayin in cause trump dun sayed it? or could have something to do with the utter collapse in trust in the media?

It might have something to do with the new york times running a story they claim justice Kavanaugh may have misled Congress when he said he wasn't primarily involved justice Pickering' confirmation when he may have in fact been involved in booking the rooms in which his confirmation took place.

if a paper of record wants to shill for a political party that's their prerogative. But when in the same week they subscribe to a joint editorial in which they extol the virtues of a free press, maybe they should eat the accusation of enemy of the people.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2235
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Vash was really asking for more capitalism all along. Who knew a single tweet could undermine years of posturing?
enjoy a video by an actual economist on the point.

He mostly talks about the netherlands which isn't nordic, what's the point?
PornoPete
Posts: 3294
Location: Melbourne, Victoria


He mostly talks about the netherlands which isn't nordic, what's the point?


He explicitly mentions Denmark within the first minute. and his list of countries includes Norway and Sweden.

So you're factually wrong out of the gates. Well done.

His point, which cuts directly against vash's repeated ad nauseum claim (and your own fractionally more sophisticated versions), is that all of those countries enjoy specifically *private* property rights at least as strong as the United States.

All of those countries are under no illusions about how wealth is generated and it is neoliberal free market capitalism.

The fact that they have welfare programs doesn't undermine that. It also cuts loudly and directly against capitalism is an endless downward spiral.

Most importantly you'll note he is neoliberal and he strangely doesn't say he rejects their welfare policies because "that's socialism and socialism has failed everywhere it's been tried". Notwithstanding Paul "the economy may never recover from Trump" Krugman's opinion.

But I'm sure you didn't need that to be explicitly spelt out to you, you're just asking to make sure we are on the same page.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2236
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I listened to the talk and he does mention Denmark, I think 3-4 times but where is he mentioning Sweeden and Norway? Can you please post a screenshot or the timing of other nordic countries mentioned in the speech?
Jim
Posts: 13763
Location:


He mostly talks about the netherlands which isn't nordic, what's the point?


They employ the nordic model though, I think is the point
PornoPete
Posts: 3295
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Thanks jim, but the he does very clearly state he is talking about the list of countries in the top quartile of that list.

I listened to the talk and he does mention Denmark, I think 3-4 times but where is he mentioning Sweeden and Norway? Can you please post a screenshot or the timing of other nordic countries mentioned in the speech?


The list "socialism works in Europe" is taken from an index of economic freedom and he refers to the top quartile of the list.

Norway and Sweden like I expressly stated are in the top quartile of that list. Seeing as sir redhat can presumably read he can pull his finger out and enter the website on his slide himself.

Or he can childishly pretend the Nordic countries aren't free market capitalist economies, in spite of how they self report. That's open too him too.
infi
Posts: 24127
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Nordic countries don't have wage fixation either.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39640
Location: Other International

Sorry to hijack your question but this started doing the rounds recently on social media. What are your thoughts on the $444 million dollar donation to fix the barrier reef given to a group that didn't ask for it with oil company relations and no legal tender for the grant?
Yeh this is pretty interesting. It sounds kind of lame on the surface. I do think the government should have access to some pool of money they can just hand out randomly with little oversight just in the interests of being able to Get Some Things Done, but this should be obviously limited and carefully scrutinised. edit: I think this is wayyyy too much money for one organisation with no tender process though.

There was an interesting discussion on Hack on JJJ last week about it; they talked about there being a panel of scientists that will be responsible for deciding how the money gets spent, etc.
infi
Posts: 24128
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I think the $444m allocation was obscene. Parliament is supposed to appropriate funds by passing laws. Slush funds for pet projects and pork barrelling are the opposite of that. If you want to hand out money with zero over sight do it with YOUR OWN money.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2238
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Malcom loves pumping money into dumb s***.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-11-20/turnbull-pumps-10m-into-rainmaking-gamble/731004

re: vash tweet, PP, et al
No one is pretending the west of europe is not capitalist.
I've lost track of the argument which was over the original tweet screenshot, which mentioned that the nordic countries have generous welfare states.


Jim
Posts: 13764
Location:

The tweet seems silly in the context of this forum, unless it was Vash just taking the piss out of himself. Would anyone even remotely worth discussing anything with, actually make an argument like that? I'd love to see evidence of someone actually doing what that tweet seems to parody (other than links to Vash's previous posts)
PornoPete
Posts: 3297
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

No one is pretending the west of europe is not capitalist.


Yes but they are pretending the only argument against implementing the so called Nordic model everywhere is people calling the Nordic system socialist.

Which the tweet rather plainly encapsulates.

As the fellow in the video points out it's not clear the Nordic model or European "socialism" is worth adopting, let alone the actual practicality of doing it.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39641
Location: Other International

I think the $444m allocation was obscene. Parliament is supposed to appropriate funds by passing laws. Slush funds for pet projects and pork barrelling are the opposite of that. If you want to hand out money with zero over sight do it with YOUR OWN money.
the "best" part is apparently they didn't even /ask/ for the money!? what does that say about what possible plans they might have for such a huge amount? they're literally going to have to make it up as they go along. why not increase CSIRO funding for reef research or something
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7888
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
It was Lucy's idea.
Nmag
Posts: 1060
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

They say they didn't ask for it, and were surprised or shocked or something but I read somewhere they met with political big wigs weeks prior to the grant. The video above rants about them having a staff of 6 and then goes on to list all these founders who are apparently involved. There is some hype in there. It will be interesting to follow. How does throwing 144m improve the reef? To my understanding the condition of the reef is more reliant on weather.
Spook
Posts: 41159
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
i would think not driving very large ships into the reef is good for it.
Insom
Posts: 4660
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

It’s on

Dutton to get thumped, either now or at the election
Nmag
Posts: 1061
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Aligns with the list of organisations involved.
Vash
Posts: 5823
Location:

Dutton is goneski. A good outcome. Surprising numbers though, i thought Turnbull would be gone
infi
Posts: 24129
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

This is just the beginning. Only 7 votes need to change.
Insom
Posts: 4661
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

eh, not exactly a thumping, but good enough for now
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39643
Location: Other International

Literally just last week Dutton was on JJJ Hack saying he wasn't interested in a leadership challenge at this time.
Nmag
Posts: 1062
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

He was also quoted last week saying he would not rule it out.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7889
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Bill sits back and watches the show.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7890
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
https://s15.postimg.cc/n88spgsuj/Shorten-bradbury.jpg


https://m.betootaadvocate.com/breaking-news/bill-shorten-begins-studying-videos-of-steven-bradburys-2002-olympic-gold-medal-win/
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