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Topic: Star Wars : The Last Jedi *SPOILERS*
Zapo
Posts: 3415
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

How is there not a thread for this yet!?

I've seen TLJ, I liked it, it was my 4th favourite proper SW movie, I liked it more than "The Force Awakens".

The amount of people who are so butt hurt about this movie is f***ing hilarious.

So two questions:

1) Are yo butt hurt? Have you been betrayed? Has this somehow destroyed Star Wars for you but the prequels didn't - and if so WHY
2) Did you enjoy it, but you do acknowledge it probably wasn't the best star wars movie of our time?

k thks bye
system
--
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7780
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I haven't seen it yet, but you are the first person that I know of to say that it isn't s***.
Zapo
Posts: 3416
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Well I'm interested in the views of others....because it's not the BEST SW movie I've seen, but it's the BEST in the trilogy series since the originals IMO.
Khel
Posts: 23970
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I thought it was mostly great, I enjoyed it. Wasn't perfect, but it had enough awesome moments that I still rate it. I thought Leia's Mary Poppins moment was pretty cringeworthy though, that was something I could have done without. Finn's side story ended up being pretty pointless too, but I still enjoyed most of those bits so I didn't mind too much. Though I wasn't a big fan of Luke being a projection at the end instead of really being there, like you think hes a total badass cos he survives all that blaster fire, but then the reveal that he was just a projection and couldn't have been harmed anyway robs that scene of its badassness. On the whole though, not enough to make me not like the movie.

I loved the opening space battle with Poe taking on the dreadnaught, that was awesome. And I loved the fight scene in Snoke's throne room with the guards. Those weren't just two of my favourite scenes in the movie, those are probably two of my favourite scenes in any Star Wars movie. Also, lightspeed ramming into Snoke's flagship was epic

Haters gonna hate though, Force Awakens got hate for being too safe and borrowing too much from previous movies, now this one gets hate for being too different and going in different directions. I bet half the people whinging about how this movie treated characters like Snoke are the same ones that bitched about not liking those characters in Force Awakens in the first place. Theres been some really, really strong, visceral hatred poured out for it but at the end of the day its just a movie, its not like Rian Johnson came into your home and murdered your first born son, people need to just chill the f*** out
Khel
Posts: 23971
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Also, controversial viewpoint maybe, but I loved Porgs
MrWolf
Posts: 266
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
I loved it! I feel like between it & Force Awakens it's "forgotten" about a lot of the crap (Jar-Jar, mediclorians etc...) from Ep's 1-3.

Sure it had some pointless characters/scenes, but all in all it was an awesome SW movie. I would loved to have seen a more BSG '33' style lightspeed, combat/repairs, lightspeed chase but how they did it was cool.

Highlights: Saber combat was heavy & brutal (no flips & crap), no more "2 there must be" Sith formula, Rey not having mysterious force powered parentage, Leia's force powers, Poe being shut down by his superior officer (despite the blatant gender debate jab), Yoda cameo & Luke acting like a spoilt child lols.

I'll go see it at least once more on the big screen (I did the midnight nerd-fest where everyone cheered/clapped at every moment, so I missed some dialogue).
Spook
Posts: 40928
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
no interest in seeing it in the slightest.

every sw moofie that gets made after the first 3 just f***s it up even more.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39385
Location: Other International

It is hard to argue with what Spook says. But I am trying to be less negative and nitpicky about things other people get enjoyment from even if I don't and I feel like my time spent trying to convince others that it wasn't a good movie is futile and sad, so just to focus on a few bits I thought were especially cool - I actually really dug the last Luke scene (did he do that to try to save Kylo Ren from having to kill him and thus slip further into the dark side? what a legend!). The lightspeed ship thing was really spectacularly done (even if it does raise more questions). Mark Hamill was just so f***ing awesome and looked so bad ass.

It's so far beyond what Eps I-III are though so I don't know how anyone could be that upset about it :D
paveway
Posts: 21443
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

no interest in seeing it in the slightest.

every sw moofie that gets made after the first 3 just f***s it up even more.


haha the 'it's not a remake of the originals' crew signing in
Raven
Posts: 9546
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
I feel what's ruining The Last Jedi more than anything in the movie itself is the d*******s out there in droves intent on whinging non-stop about the movie, and trying to insist to others that it was an all-round bad movie. In most cases this seems to be people who had come up with their own ideas of what should happen, who Snoke should be and his backstory, yada yada, and now that none of what *they* thought should happen did, in the movie, they're just raging on it.

The only real complaint I have about the movie is that due to the change of writer across episodes, there's a few things like it feels like they wanted later fleshed out, but the next writer came along and went "hm, what do I do with this guy? I got nothing. Oh well, blender". ie, there appeared to be a lack of long-term planning for the story.

But other than that, it was a solid movie.

Also, I hated Laura Derns character as much as I hated Michelle Forbes character in Battlestar Galactica.
Arpey
Posts: 186
Location: New South Wales

I liked it. I have a feeling the people who feel betrayed and this killed Star Wars are people who grew up on the prequels and are now experiencing what everyone else felt walking out of The Phantom Menace.
PornoPete
Posts: 2942
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I didn't like it much. I liked the ice/salt crystal fox things they were awesome.

It felt like they made some minor changes to empire strikes back to me. The series is in serious danger of being a remake of the original three.

The fight in snokes room was pretty sweet, though I am inclined to agree that snokes story line needs more work. I had no idea who the dude was (nor any theory) but it felt like he was a poorly executed plot device to resolve the conflict in kylo in favour of the dark side. It just felt like you could see the cogs of the story mechanics turning a little too obviously.

poes storyline can be summed as [insert character development here]

I also felt there were too many jokes. As in obvious comic relief to punctuate the more serious scenes.

With that said, I didn't hate it. It s***s all over the prequels, but let's just stop to reflect where that bar is set for a second.
Khel
Posts: 23972
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

When I saw it I remember thinking to myself, "Well theres no way people could criticise this as being a ripoff of empire like they did back with Force Awakens" and yet, it still happens. Apart from a couple of thematic callbacks here and there, its really nothing like Empire though. If it made no callbacks or nods to the originals it would just be criticised for being too different and not feeling like Star Wars anymore, so its a bit damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Jim
Posts: 13738
Location: UK

great review here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPsRp7uUXUk
PornoPete
Posts: 2943
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I had no problem with force awakens I thought it was a great movie.

But I disagree there are only slight thematic nods to Empire in the last jedi.

Rei goes to a distant system to be trained by a jedi master.

The battle in snokes room happens after Rei has only had incomplete training from her master. just like luke and vader.

rei and kylo end up have a strong personal connection they will have to deal with. just like luke and vader. to be clear, I think it is a neat twist on it.

The film ends with the resistance completely f***ed just like empire.

The final act is a replay of hoth.

Finn's interlude is like han and leia going to cloud city/the asteroid worm sequence.

I reckon they lent pretty heavily on empire's important story devices.

I hear you on the too new/not star wars front. I thought the force awakens walked the line really well, but they failed to capitalise on the pressure being taken off by its success.

But I reiterate I don't think it was a bad movie, I just didn't enjoy that much.
Khel
Posts: 23974
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Bits of it were definitely remiscent of empire, like the Rey/Luke training bits and how she left before she was ready against her master's advice, or her "go into the cave/hole thats full of dark side nastiness and face yourself" moment, or how the movie opens with the rebels evacuating their base while under attack from the empire/first order, and yeah Krait was a big Hoth homage, but I felt in all those cases while they may have started out like feeling like Empire, they went in different directions I wasn't expecting, so it never really felt like too much of a copy-paste to me. Just felt like they borrowed some of the themes and then put a new spin on things or did something new with it.

The overall structure of the movie was basically built around a big chase and the entire movie took place over only a couple of days at most, it felt like a very personal, focused sort of Star Wars movie to me, like it didn't really feel like the big sprawling adventure that others have and it wasn't so much about huge "fate of the galaxy" stuff, it was just about the fate of these few people. That alone made it feel very different to me.

When the rebels fled Hoth in Empire, it wasn't like that was the whole rebellion, that was just one base, you never got the impression if they fell there that the whole rebellion would be over. Same as the way Empire ended, yeah they were in a dark place but its not like the whole rebellion was threatened, it was just Han in the s*** really. In this one they're literally fleeing for their lives and the First Order is on the verge of entirely wiping them out. Its at the same time a smaller Star Wars story, but with stakes that are MUCH bigger, I liked that mix
Zapo
Posts: 3417
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I think a lot of things "connections" you've found are pretty weak. It's like someone trying to convince themselves that a horoscope actually applied to them for that day.

There are obviously some similarities to other SW movies because this is a f***in' SW movie. Most of the complaints I've read are because people that aren't happy that this wasn't MORE like the other movies, rather than less.

While I felt like TFA was just total fan service, and I know it had to page homage to the other movies in a way as it was the first movie with the original cast in 30 years- I feel like TLJ gave a middle finger to those people who wanted everything explained and laid out on a nice platter and more of our 70+ year old characters. The scale of this story was magnified and personal, and I love the fact that Rei's parents were nobodies. I love that Snoke just died and was literally tossed aside. I love that Luke just tossed the light saber away when Rei greeted him, it was perfect.

Again, I don't think it's the best SW movie, but it's certainly not the worse, and after it all sunk in a bit I enjoyed this far far more than TFA.
PornoPete
Posts: 2944
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Well, fair enough Khel.

The end of Empire, Lucas himself said he put the characters in the worst possible position. The Rebellion was in bad shape at the end of Empire. I get that this is more desperate, but to me, that feels like trying to ramp up the drama in a fairly clumsy way. If it really is just 40 people left in the whole galaxy there is no coming back from that. The first order will just need the cops, not a huge star fleet.

There are bits of it I liked. Kylo going the opposite way to vader was cool. But it bears more than a passing similarity to Empire to me, and I don't think it's an accident, nor trying to fit a horoscope prediction.

Killing Snoke without fleshing out who he was was dumb. How did he get in Kylo's head? How did Luke know about him?

Important character development points are left completely unanswered to fit in that stupid horse racing s***.

There are obviously some similarities to other SW movies because this is a f***in' SW movie.


Yeah so the complaint isn't that it felt like a star wars movie. The complaint is it felt like the second star wars movie after TFA felt like the first star wars movie. ie they are just remaking the original trilogy.

Anyway, if you enjoyed it so much the better. I thought it was average, for the reasons stated. I'm not trying to convince you.
Khel
Posts: 23975
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Yeah, I would have liked to know more about Snoke before they snuffed him, considering the mysterious way they built him up. I like the way it played out and I actually like Kylo Ren a lot more in this one than in force awakens, but I was a bit disappointed that they left so many Snok- related threads hanging.

I'm fine with Rey's parents being nobodies, I like it actually. Like it doesn't give an easy Deus ex machina style excuse for her badassness, she's not awesome because she's the daughter of some Jedi master or anything like that, she's just awesome cos she's Rey, that makes her character stronger imo than if she was another Skywalker or Kenobi or whatever.

The only bit of the movie I really didn't like was Leia's Mary Poppins moment, that was painfully cringeworthy :(
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7784
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
On a more important note - I reckon Kylo Ren looks like Marilyn Manson without the emo makeup.
notgreazy
Posts: 889
Location: Other International

I'm fine with Rey's parents being nobodies, I like it actually. Like it doesn't give an easy Deus ex machina style excuse for her badassness, she's not awesome because she's the daughter of some Jedi master or anything like that, she's just awesome cos she's Rey, that makes her character stronger imo than if she was another Skywalker or Kenobi or whatever.
This so much. I really loved this and I hope it continues staying true. The chosen one bulls*** is very frustrating trope that appears in a lot of movies and ruins any connection the viewers have with the character and most of the time just unnecessary. A good example is Guardians of the galaxy, right at the end we're told the Starlord has some magical DNA.

In the case of Star Wars, it fits with the ending. There are many more Jedi out there, you don't need to be special and I think it also means the Jedi can never truly die off. Even without their books, the Jedi can live on. I really liked the scene with Yoda burning the books down, they really mean very little. And Jedi as a religion was the problem. They were too strict.

I also loved Kylo, he made smart choices, like shooting the f*** out of Luke without a hesitation. Laughed hard at that.

Good movie, enjoyed it but it's about 30 minutes too long and had weak writing. I went in there knowing nothing and expecting nothing. Don't get your hopes up because it has flaws.
notgreazy
Posts: 890
Location: Other International

A big question I have: Can someone explain to me WTF the Rebels actually do? I feel like there's a massive disconnect between what happened after Vader/Empire collapsed and the new movies. We have the First Order, which is essentially a bunch of rabid Vader fans. They're not really running anything. What's the current state of the universe government? What are the rebels going to do with 20 people and 1 ship? The universe seems to be running as usual even without the senate/empire.

IMO this is the biggest problem with the new movies. The Rebels are fighting for...something that's not concrete or known. They literally have no allies. Rebels ARE the bad guys.

That s***ty line about "The spark that will ignite the...blah blah blah".
Khel
Posts: 23976
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Well the galaxy was being run by the new republic, but the first order blew up the republic Homeworld using Starkiller base, so I guess since then they kinda are defacto running things now
Saint
Cainer
Posts: 3356
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Thought it was great, knew there'd be people who dislike it, and also people who would hate it mostly because they had way too many high expectations.
MrWolf
Posts: 267
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
Greazy, check out the Aftermath (trilogy) books to help fill those blanks.
Khel
Posts: 23977
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Even though I liked it, I still found this pretty funny

sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7789
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
https://s14.postimg.org/azrzm0o9d/itsacrap.jpg
Khel
Posts: 23978
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

R.I.P. Admiral Ackbar
Rukh
Posts: 1117
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
You're looking at the Mary Poppins scene wrong. Leia didn't use the Force to pull herself to the crusier... She used the Force to pull the cruiser to her! ;)
paveway
Posts: 21446
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I haven't seen it yet but i read some of this thread as most of what said makes no sense to me without seeing it anyway, but i am disappointed snoke was killed with no fleshing out of his background, he had potential to have an epic dark side of the force back ground
Twisted
Posts: 12299
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I enjoyed it, but there seemed to be a lot of convenient encounters across the universe to make everything come together. Much like the episode VII...but whatever. I sat there and watched it and wasn't inclined to walk out so it wasn't terrible.
Viper119
Posts: 3342
Location: Other International

I enjoyed it, loads of epic moments and cool scenes.

I felt it was too long, defo started feeling like a bit much.

I like how they've taken a new path and tried to do something original, even if that's made all the old fan boys s*** tears.

I didn't love the story, it felt disjointed and like there's no real grand narrative. The director has made some great films tho (Brick, Looper), so I'm happy to see where he goes with it all in the 3rd one.

I did like bits of the story though, notably: The Jedi weren't great. I've always thought they were way too dogmatic and extreme, the so called 'grey' Jedi's seems a more reasonable and centralist approach to me! ;) The notion that the force is available to anyone with force sensitivity and training (egalitarianism), rather than it being a special bloodline / ruling elite only thing (elitism).

Thought this was an interesting read, Yoda Is Dead but Star Wars’ Dubious Lessons Live On. His original article from 1999 is worth a read too, if you're interested.
notgreazy
Posts: 891
Location: Other International

Well the galaxy was being run by the new republic, but the first order blew up the republic Homeworld using Starkiller base, so I guess since then they kinda are defacto running things now

Ah right, thanks for reminding me. I found the galactic world politics one of the more interesting aspect of star wars. They're really glossing over it :(
Greazy, check out the Aftermath (trilogy) books to help fill those blanks.

No thanks. I wish they'd incorporate it into the movies!
paveway
Posts: 21458
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

A big question I have: Can someone explain to me WTF the Rebels actually do? I feel like there's a massive disconnect between what happened after Vader/Empire collapsed and the new movies. We have the First Order, which is essentially a bunch of rabid Vader fans. They're not really running anything. What's the current state of the universe government? What are the rebels going to do with 20 people and 1 ship? The universe seems to be running as usual even without the senate/empire.


Literally explained in the first paragraph of the text that runs up the screen at the very start of the movie

I just saw it, i thought it was awesome.

The luke skywalker scene at the end where he projects himself, i can see how some might be disappointed it wasn't actually him but for me it was one of the most badass uses of the force i have seen in all the movies and the clone wars anime series.

no more "2 there must be" Sith formula


Not sure why you think that has been discarded just because he killed snoke

I hope more information comes in the next movie about snoke
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39402
Location: Other International

The luke skywalker scene at the end where he projects himself, i can see how some might be disappointed it wasn't actually him but for me it was one of the most badass uses of the force i have seen in all the movies and the clone wars anime series.
yeh it was cool. Compared to the disappointment of the Yoda super-bouncy-ball fight scene in Ep 2(?) it was awesome.

The best use of the Force in that first trilogy would have been Yoda controlling the lightsaber with the Force with his eyes closed instead of being a Sonic Hedgehog superball stupid thing.
paveway
Posts: 21459
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
It was ep3 and i didn't mind it purely because it showed he was complete badass with a light sabre. he looks physically useless right throughout every movie until that point but when he needed to fight je could kick some ass. But you are right it could have been done differently.
Khel
Posts: 23981
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

He did it in ep2 as well, right at the end against dooku, like a mosquito on crack
notgreazy
Posts: 893
Location: Other International



Not sure why you think that has been discarded just because he killed snoke

I hope more information comes in the next movie about snoke

The text says very little:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qShkXC1nnVU

Essentially they're over zealous guerrilla fighters who believe in a now extinct religion, with no allies anywhere. nobody wants whatever the f*** they;re selling.
dais
Posts: 12242
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Just got back from seeing it. I went in spoiler free except for seeing something about Yoda being in it. I really liked that part and his quirky behaviour reminiscent of Empire.

It had a lot of really cool bits in it, Mark Hamill was great like Harrison Ford was in The Force Awakens. On the one hand I find these to be totally forgettable films compared to the original trilogy, and to be honest, the prequels. There's a lot of style and not much substance, I especially agree with the comments here about the story and motivations of the characters. In the original trilogy everything is very clear and there is a distinct feeling of urgency and fear for the main characters because the stakes are so high and so well explained. Whereas with the new ones it's very much like they just made the movies because they could, rather than to tell an epic story. Here's hoping it all makes sense with the conclusion to the trilogy two years from now.

On the other hand, this is a new generation of Star Wars for a new generation of young people, yet I think it still does justice to the original characters that are featured, for the most part. Luke and Leia were great. I think Disney and Lucasfilm have done a really good job, in the sense that these movies are not totally cringe worthy and are really quite enjoyable. Highlights in this movie for me were Yoda, Luke and Rey, Kylo Ren and Rey, Snoke and Ren and Rey, and the jump to lightspeed smashing Snoke's fleet. That was a drool worthy display of modern graphics and cinematography. What an awesome sequence. Snoke's death and the way things went after that was a surprise too. Snoke could have been a lot scarier, but I thought that part of the story was quite well done.

I don't think Kylo Ren was serious about Rey's parents, it seemed more like he was just trying to make her feel hopeless so she would join the dark side. That was the whole point, he said that her parents didn't care about her but he did. Classic dark side deception.
Khel
Posts: 23985
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I don't think Kylo Ren was serious about Rey's parents, it seemed more like he was just trying to make her feel hopeless so she would join the dark side.


I think that's just denial :p. When empire came out, people thought Darth Vader was lying too. I got the impression it was for real but who knows what JJ will do in the third one. While I do really enjoy these new movies, it does feel like they're just making it up as they go along instead of having the whole arc planned out in advance. Some bits in Last Jedi just felt like Rian Johnson didn't like some of the characters/events of force awakens so just undid them to suit his own story, so what's to say JJ won't do the same again with the next one
paveway
Posts: 21462
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

the jump to lightspeed smashing Snoke's fleet


that was seriously awesome

Snoke could should have been a lot scarier


i feel like killing off snoke now leaving just kylo did more to remove the bigger picture as people are saying, it is now just kylo vs rei. lots of you have been saying that the movies are more about these few people than the bigger picture of the original and even the prequals. killing him off did nothing to help salvage that bigger picture angle.

and f*** me that could have done so much with him and his sith back story

i also tend to believe kylo wasn't lying about her parents
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39407
Location: Other International

that was seriously awesome
Until you stop to wonder why they didn't just start lightspeed bombing every Star Destroyer, Death Star, etc!@#

Editing Room script for this movie is pretty funny
Khel
Posts: 23986
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I don't even care that it doesn't make logical sense cos it looked amazing, and I've wondered for the last 30 years what it would look like if a ship going at Lightspeed collided with something; was not disappointed
paveway
Posts: 21463
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Trog was that a joke?
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39408
Location: Other International

no... did I miss something?
dais
Posts: 12243
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Yeah I might be wrong about Rey's parents because in The Force Awakens Maz Kanata tells Rey that her parents are not coming back. I thought Rey's parents were the overarching plot point of the whole trilogy though!

Until you stop to wonder why they didn't just start lightspeed bombing every Star Destroyer, Death Star, etc!@#


This guy shreds the film and highlights that as an issue. I agree with a lot of what he said, but not so much that it ruined the movie for me completely. I could still be in new Star Wars movie euphoria though. I wonder how it will hold up on additional viewings. The Force Awakens is a much better movie from a story point of view.



As a vegan, the not so subtle use of the film to promote animal rights really irked me. This is Star Wars, not a social media campaign to rescue hens. This article talks about all the aspects of The Last Jedi that were focused on animal rights.

The Last Jedi Is Vegan AF. Here's Why...

The film really did seem like it was trying to highlight a lot of issues that concern social justice warriors. I really liked Laura Dern's character Vice Admiral Holdo and that part of the story with Poe and Leia, but I can see why that aspect of the film could piss people off. There seemed to be more focus on those issues in the film than the story itself at some points. As a result it was hard to take The Last Jedi seriously at times.
Khel
Posts: 23987
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Holding was the worst admiral ever, there was no reason at all for her to keep her plans secret from her crew, I mean it would have been pretty good for morale I would have thought if she let people know what the plan was instead of letting them all think they were f***ed. That was one of the most contrived parts of the movie for me, everyone's all "yay for strong females in positions of power" but she was f***ing s*** at her job and at leading people sonim not sure it sends the message they wanted it to
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39409
Location: Other International

the message that the outnumbered, out-gunned, out-technologies, etc freedom fighter should always kamikaze in the name of freedom from the imperial oppressors?!?!
dais
Posts: 12244
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Yeah I was talking about Poe's mutiny and then being put in his place. Myself and other people in the theater laughed out loud when he was stunned by Leia afterward. There are a lot of alt right videos on YouTube about Laura Dern's character and that story arc, bitching about female empowerment being taken too far in the film. Like I said, I enjoyed that aspect of the movie, but some people on the internet (angry white males) were incensed by it, which has been interesting to watch develop.
dais
Posts: 12245
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/12/star-wars-last-jedi-laura-dern-admiral-holdo-listen-to-women
But by and large, The Last Jedi's examination of gender politics does fit into this trilogy's message that the true heirs to the power in this universe are not white men like Hux and Kylo but women and people of color. Though The Last Jedi began filming in early 2016 - in other words, long before a referendum on Donald Trump vs. Hillary Clinton informed every aspect of American storytelling - it's impossible to ignore the parallels on screen here.

The film's progressive ideology is already ticking off some calcified corners of the fandom - the kind of fans who dismissed Ridley's heroic Rey as a too-powerful "Mary Sue" after the last film. But just because some Star Wars lovers are out of reach for the message this movie delivers, there is still hope for a new generation. Just like that kid at the end of The Last Jedi, holding his broom aloft and wearing the resistance jewelry left behind by Rose, an entire generation of young Star Wars watchers will remember the brave, smart, capable women of The Last Jedi - and the consequences of doubting their leadership.

Twisted
Posts: 12303
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

It actually bugged me that there was like 1 black dude in the entire movie. Surely there are more black dudes than that, though I assume they're all wearing storm trooper helmets...
Khel
Posts: 23988
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The Poe mutiny was dumb, but also entirely unnecessary and could have been completely avoided if Holdo just went "hey, calm down, we've got a plan, we're gonna get close to krait then escape in the shuttles, they're small enough that the empire won't detect them". You know, give people some hope instead of letting them think they were defeated, like an actual, capable leader would.
paveway
Posts: 21465
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

no... did I miss something?


so the "outnumbered, out-gunned, out-technologies" rebels should have been destroying their limited numbers of ships and people for the last 30 years against an enemy with seemingly unlimited resources....


http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/07/07d47b2227f592e9e53bbfe1fea7c0da1192205fb254416b66b1a80d0c25620f.jpg
dais
Posts: 12246
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

This is a good, seemingly unbiased rant, mostly about the story.

trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39410
Location: Other International

so the "outnumbered, out-gunned, out-technologies" rebels should have been destroying their limited numbers of ships and people for the last 30 years against an enemy with seemingly unlimited resources....
well they were totally extremely massively cavalier with their ships in the very first scene, to the point where it became a major plot point ("Poe you reckless jerk"). If they could have just sent one of them at light speed into the battleship they wouldn't have wasted the rest of them.

I mean I don't want to go down this thing of poking holes in the movie but randomly adding new stuff into a canon which stretches back 6 movies over 40 years is the kind of thing that should be done a little more carefully, I reckon. I mean the only people that really are complaining about it are those die hard fanboys that for whatever reason are overlooking the travesty of Eps I-III like they could be redeemed by these movies (not possible for me).

So I'm not getting worked up about it and just trying to kick back and enjoy the bits I can.
paveway
Posts: 21467
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
It was a move made in total desperation by someone who had already chosen to sacrifice herself for literaly last remaining few of the reblion fleeing the ship.

You make it sound like it was a calculated battle move.

I really fail to see how this is some huge loophole in the plot that blows everything apart.

Khel
Posts: 23990
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

It was super effective though, so I think it's more that it raises the question, why have they never done it before? I mean they could probably even set up ships that are piloted remotely and just Lightspeed them into things, they wouldn't even need to be good ships, even s***ty old transports have Lightspeed.

It doesn't bother me personally, but it's a fair point
trillion
Posts: 4352
Location: Ballarat, Victoria
it's not made for the fans, the message is made to appeal to the women with kids watching it having never seen any of the history of the other movies so that they will be more likely to buy the merchandise

but oh double up they got the fans on ticket sales too anyway
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39412
Location: Other International

I really fail to see how this is some huge loophole in the plot that blows everything apart.
It's not a loophole in the plot per se, it's a loophole in the universe of Star Wars. As Khel points out, if they can use the physics of lightspeed attacks to do that, why not do it before in any of the other zillion movies?

You're not supposed to go too deep on Star Wars physics because you quickly run into weird things. But everything else to date is (kinda) at least consistent and this new thing is such a huge, massive physics changer that opens up sooo many questions about why the hell didn't they use it before (like there wasn't ever an X-wing that was desperate enough to go to light speed to take out a Star Destroyer).

Anyway I agree with Khel that the effect was awesome. But I'm going out of my way to suspend my sense of continuity and consistency and I can see why those that cannot (or choose not to) are flying into a frothy nerd rage.
Twisted
Posts: 12304
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

so the "outnumbered, out-gunned, out-technologies" rebels should have been destroying their limited numbers of ships and people for the last 30 years against an enemy with seemingly unlimited resources....
Works for the mulims.
Until you stop to wonder why they didn't just start lightspeed bombing every Star Destroyer, Death Star, etc!@#
I too wondered this. Apart from the nifty effect it sort of put holes into the earlier movies. Like why not just get a fleet and light speed the f*** out of the death star. Move of them got the s*** blown out of them anyway in the battle. A couple of big ships could just just snapped that f***er in half. But ... they didn't have the digital technology back in the day to achieve the effect so you have to pretend they only just thought about it now :) From this point forward I expect to see many more kamikaze light speed jumps though.
paveway
Posts: 21469
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

not sure why you think driving a ship into another ship is some brand new facet of physics

but forget the above point about physics, from a realist point of view (when i say realistic, i mean from a star wars rebel character perspective)

there are a few good reasons not to waste their ships flying them into other ships

i seem to have completely missed this lightbulb moment you guys had when watching it, maybe because kamikaze'ing ships as a tactic going back to the originl trilogy seems really stupid to me.

on an unrelated note i loved the scale of Snoke's ship compared to the other star destroyers
Vash
Posts: 5670
Location:

I dont see how an xwing at light speed could do much damage to a star destroyer.
But it would make sense at the end of ROTJ, where the rebel fleet was blockaded, they could have felt the need to evacuate a cruiser and lightspeed into the deathstar's ray to disable its weapon, or punch a hole through the blockade.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39413
Location: Other International

i seem to have completely missed this lightbulb moment you guys had when watching it, maybe because kamikaze'ing ships as a tactic going back to the originl trilogy seems really stupid to me.
old trog would have enjoyed arguing about this forever!! but I'm trying not to spend my time convincing other people they shouldn't enjoy things for weird reasons.
on an unrelated note i loved the scale of Snoke's ship compared to the other star destroyers
yeh I was wondering how it compared to the mega destroyer in Jedi. It needs to be added to the starship comparison size chart that compares them all in scale.
Khel
Posts: 23993
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I dont see how an xwing at light speed could do much damage to a star destroyer.


An X-Wing going at Lightspeed though, still be a f***load of kinetic energy released by that collision, don't think it'd have much trouble wiping out a Star destroyer.

They could have come at the death Star with a bunch of beaten up old transports and Lightspeed rammed them all in there for the win. Hell, its not like it was moving very far or very fast, they probably could have plotted the jump into it from so far away that they were never even seen. It's one of those threads that you shouldn't pull on cos the whole jumper starts to unravel.
Arpey
Posts: 187
Location: New South Wales

Re: Lightspeed ramming the Death Star, the EU at least had a reason it wasn't feasible - hyperspace contains gravity shadows of bodies with sufficient mass which pull ships out of hyperspace when they get too close, and the Empire had cruisers equipped with generators that could artificially create a field that would do the same. You have to assume that if you're going to pour all those resources into building a planetoid sized weapon you'd defend it with those as well as conventional shields and ship patrols.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39414
Location: Other International

Re: Lightspeed ramming the Death Star, the EU at least had a reason it wasn't feasible - hyperspace contains gravity shadows of bodies with sufficient mass which pull ships out of hyperspace when they get too close, and the Empire had cruisers equipped with generators that could artificially create a field that would do the same. You have to assume that if you're going to pour all those resources into building a planetoid sized weapon you'd defend it with those as well as conventional shields and ship patrols.
that is a cool explanation! but I'm a huge story nerd and my attitude is if it doesn't take place in the actual movie, I don't think it counts. It's basically turtles all the way down if you dive too deep so it's better to not ask questions :D
dais
Posts: 12249
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

PewDiePie tells it like it is:



This is a really interesting analysis of the scale of the story and characters in the movie:

dais
Posts: 12250
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

You know Khel I reckon you are right about Poe's mutiny and Holdo. The more I think about this movie the worse it gets. The movie was not right from the beginning, with Poe disobeying Leia's orders not to take out the Dreadnought and allowing for that whole part of the story with Holdo and Leia putting him in his place. I found it amusing at the time, but it served no purpose whatsoever other than to portray the female characters as superior and was an insult to the Poe character, who was awesome in The Force Awakens.

When Vice Admiral Holdo was first introduced, Poe referred to an act of heroism she had performed in the past, and said that she was not what he expected, implying that he thought she was male. That cliché of men in film thinking that some great person they admire who performed some great deed in the past was a man, and then discovering that it was a woman, has been done to death. Take the 1999 film The Matrix for example, which did it really well and in a way that added to the story:
Trinity: My name's Trinity.
Neo: *The* Trinity? Who cracked the IRS d-base?
Trinity: That was a long time ago.
Neo: Jesus... Trinity: What?
Neo: I just thought... you were a guy.
Trinity: Most guys do.

The reason this is getting to me now is because of what PewDiePie said about Admiral Ackbar. I barely noticed his death in the movie, but was reminded of it by PewDiePie. Ackbar should have been piloting the ship that destroyed Snoke's fleet. Ackbar was a beloved alien character from the original trilogy, and in this movie he only had a cameo and was completely overlooked in favour of this new character, a white person. It was speciesism! He should have at least been her copilot.

But seriously, again it seems like story and characters were ignored so that the director could use this massive franchise solely to highlight current social issues in our culture, which is an insult to Star Wars and to its fans.
dais
Posts: 12251
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Furthermore, the leaders of the Rebel Alliance and Resistance have always been female, from the prequels to the current movies. Padme Amidala, Jyn Erso, Mon Mothma and Leia Organa. These are great, strong characters.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39416
Location: Other International

^^ so don't you feel your second post totally invalidates your feelings mentioned in the first post?

as is usual; I think people are blowing the male/female thing massively out of proportion.
I found it amusing at the time, but it served no purpose whatsoever other than to portray the female characters as superior
They WERE superior [officers]. It was completely the same as every scene ever in any movie where a superior shouty officer shouts shoutily at their wildcard subordinate who lives on the edge and does what needs to be doing, even when they get shoutenated at all the time.

Also you say "But seriously" like your comment about Ackbar should not be taken seriously but I strongly think it should!!!! Ackbar was a classic part of Star Wars.

It reminds me of the end of Force Awakens when Leia walks past Chewie after Han's death with barely a look (something I've whined about incessantly before). In too many ways it is honestly like the people who wrote these new Star Wars movies did so based on a knowledge of Star Wars they got from the Netflix snippets they read before deciding not to watch them.
Raven
Posts: 9551
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
In too many ways it is honestly like the people who wrote these new Star Wars movies did so based on a knowledge of Star Wars they got from the Netflix snippets they read before deciding not to watch them.


Transformers feels like this. I hope like hell whoever gets the gig directing the ThunderCats and Voltron LAMs is someone who grew up watching them, not someone who had a script thrown across their desk and decided to just do a little bit of research by watching them :/
Arpey
Posts: 188
Location: New South Wales

I believe Ackbar's role was minimized because the voice actor passed away before he recorded his lines for the film.
Vash
Posts: 5675
Location:

It reminds me of the end of Force Awakens when Leia walks past Chewie after Han's death with barely a look


Yeah i was disappointed at the lack of boob grab too

https://i.imgur.com/6d23Lz5.jpg
dais
Posts: 12252
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

trog my recent issue with the Holdo character was that she was introduced to put Poe in his place and then be the selfless hero, when there were already plenty of strong female characters, at the expense of using Ackbar. Like I said, I laughed in the cinema when Leia stunned Poe, that was great. But looking back on it the whole thing with Poe going rogue and then being put in his place was kind of pointless and seemed to only serve to introduce and strengthen the new Holdo character, who we had no reason to care about, especially given how quickly she was killed off.

I meant everything I said about Ackbar. The "but seriously" comment was about my joking reference to speciesism.
I believe Ackbar's role was minimized because the voice actor passed away before he recorded his lines for the film.

Arpey is right, it seems there is no point in worrying about it anyway.
But there may be another reason Ackbar doesn’t have more of a presence in Last Jedi. Erik Bauersfeld, the voice actor who played him, died in April 2016; just two months after The Last Jedi started filming. And given the widespread backlash against resurrecting Peter Cushing’s Grand Moff Tarkin through a CGI stand-in in Rogue One, and Lucasfilm’s promise that it won’t digitally resurrect Carrie Fisher in the same way for Episode IX, the company may not have wanted to disrespect Bauersfeld by instantly replacing him to give Ackbar more screen time.
Getting mad about Admiral Ackbar in The Last Jedi is a trap
Khel
Posts: 23996
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

He wouldn't have had to even say anything though, just at least showing him dying would have been an improvement, instead it all happens off screen and we get to hear about it in an offhand comment from another character. He deserved better! #justiceforackbar
dais
Posts: 12253
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Yeah for sure, having him at his post in the background when Holdo was staring off into the distance accepting her fate would have been a moment, and would have added weight to Holdo's character as she died with Ackbar.
dais
Posts: 12254
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

In too many ways it is honestly like the people who wrote these new Star Wars movies did so based on a knowledge of Star Wars they got from the Netflix snippets they read before deciding not to watch them.


That is absolutely right, it seems they either don't understand what Star Wars is about or don't care. This is a video all about that aspect of the new movies and the lack of a gripping narrative:

dais
Posts: 12255
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

This is bloody hilarious (NSFW content):

Smack Talk: The Last Jedi Review
Viper119
Posts: 3346
Location: Other International

There's so much hyper criticism, hate, sexism and racism imbued in many of these video rants ^^, it's hard to take them seriously. I enjoyed the pitch meeting one though.
Jim
Posts: 13739
Location: UK

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/26805308_1666420840068527_192447637643168916_n.jpg?oh=f85617335b0284bf48c51effdb051336&oe=5AEF3D75

courtesy of the always-hilarious Satiria
PornoPete
Posts: 2958
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I dont know viper.

PewDiePie didn't seem particularly racist or sexist to me.

And I agree the "comic relief" was done horribly.
The three characters introduced were all meta narrative devices to develop the three main characters. Holder exists for the sole purpose of Poe learning to be less reckless. Which against the contextual background of refusing to tell a ship full of people who are about to die your plan to save them, is more than a little ironic.

Snoke and rose were same.
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