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Topic: Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any pro... Page: < 1 2 3 4 ... 7 8 9 10 >
Viper119
Posts: 3287
Location: Other International

Ahh... we seem to be massively downplaying the sheer scale of death directly attributable to communism. Also that WW2 era Soviet Russia was a truly horrific regime on par with the Nazis or perhaps even worse in some respects. I think Vash's point about deaths from capitalism is interesting, but it is rather indirect in comparison.

According to a disturbingly pleasant graphic from Information is Beautiful entitled simply 20th Century Death, communism was the leading ideological cause of death between 1900 and 2000. The 94 million that perished in China, the Soviet Union, North Korea, Afghanistan, and Eastern Europe easily (and tragically) trump the 28 million that died under fascist regimes during the same period. During the century measured, more people died as a result of communism than from homicide (58 million) and genocide (30 million) put together. The combined death tolls of WWI (37 million) and WWII (66 million) exceed communism’s total by only 9 million.
Communism Killed 94M in 20th Century, Feels Need to Kill Again

According to Stéphane Courtois’s The Black Book of Communism, Communism is responsible for 100 million deaths, a number total that far exceeds Nazism, which left 16 million dead—and it eclipses the 20th century death tolls of lung cancer, diabetes, and homicides.

Mao’s estimated death toll ranges from 60 million to 80 million, which surpasses the lives claimed by World War I (37 million) and possibly World War II (66 million).

Courtois tabs Russian dictator Joseph Stalin’s death total at 20 million, though this number fluctuates from 10 to 60 million depending on the source.

In Ukraine, collectivization and soviet industrialization brought about the Holomodor, a famine that caused between 2.5 to 7.5 million deaths.

In Cambodia, Pol Pot—who was previously a member of the French Communist Party... During his reign from 1975-1979, about 1.5-2 million of a total population of 7 million Cambodians were killed

Another two million were murdered by communists in North Korea and Ethiopia.
Communism: The Leading Ideological Cause of Death in the 20th Century

Daniel Goldhagen argues that 20th century Communist regimes "have killed more people than any other regime type." Other scholars in the fields of Communist studies and genocide studies, such as Steven Rosefielde, Benjamin Valentino, and R.J. Rummel, have come to similar conclusions. Rosefielde states that it is possible the "Red Holocaust" killed more non-combatants than "Ha Shoah" and "Japan's Asian holocaust" combined, and "was at least as heinous, given the singularity of Hitler's genocide." Rosefielde also notes that "while it is fashionable to mitigate the Red Holocaust by observing that capitalism killed millions of colonials in the twentieth century, primarily through man-made famines, no inventory of such felonious negligent homicides comes close to the Red Holocaust total.
Mass killings under Communist regimes

Rather subjectively, I've been to a bunch of Eastern Europe and have a fair few friends from there. The lingering effects of communism I saw there were terrible, and none of my friends from there are pro-communist, they're all keen to progress to Western style social democratic capitalism as quickly as possible.

Does free markets and globalism have to be explicitly neoliberal Pete? Surely we can have that without having the neoliberal tenants of diminishing state in public services, reducing govt regulations and deregulating free enterprise to the extreme? That seems sensible to me, just more reasonable social good based regulation and a healthier balance between state and private I suppose.
PornoPete
Posts: 2603
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I'll answer more fully later viper.

But my experience is the same. I have a bunch of polish friends and the less said about their opinion of communism the better.

I was actually softer on communism before I lived in Europe. People who actually lived under it left no room for error. It's f***ed. and people who think otherwise are dumb or evil.

*edit* please make a fool of yourself fpot by calling me racist again. Just be aware the principle mode of antisemitism in the world to day is to redirect the holocaust against non-jews. I'm being nice. I won't call you antisemitic. But know you are flirting with it when you say the Nazi's wanted to kill just anyone, */edit*
Tollaz0r!
Posts: 18395
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
What is the point of comparing various political systems to a death toll? Pretty much every government system ever created has at some point been involved with significant deaths, and probably will continue to do so in the future.

Maybe it's not a problem of government, maybe it's just because humans can be vicious little bastards when they feel scared. Every government, at least in modern history, has dabbled in fear-based campaigns. Unfortunately, it works well.
Vash
Posts: 5406
Location:

yes well fortunately that is what we've got

for the love of all that is holy can you please stop talking about it now


Not even close. We're still firmly in the right of center camp, and drifting further that way.
Here's hoping a new power is rising after the French & UK election results.
PornoPete
Posts: 2604
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I think Vash's point about deaths from capitalism is interesting


I don't. I think it will be rather difficult to plausibly attribute too many deaths to the idea trade and industry should be privately owned and run for profit. But even if you want to start attributing deaths to it, I think it becomes incumbent to offer a superior alternative. Because the hard facts are that capitalism easily provides the highest living standard for the most amount of people of any system we've ever tried. So what ever deaths are occurring under modern capitalism its a good bet they wouldn't have been saved by adopting a different system. And its a better bet the situation would have been much much worse under Marxism.

It doesn't save everyone, but that's not a claim it makes for itself. Unlike some other systems.


Does free markets and globalism have to be explicitly neoliberal Pete? Surely we can have that without having the neoliberal tenants of diminishing state in public services, reducing govt regulations
and deregulating free enterprise to the extreme? That seems sensible to me, just more reasonable social good based regulation and a healthier balance between state and private I suppose.


Well it all depends what you mean by neoliberal really. The free movement of labour and capital is pretty central to neoliberalism. So I don't really think you can have something like the EU without being neoliberal in some sense.

But more over my understanding of neoliberalism is not that reducing govt regulation etc is an end in itself. the idea is that a higher standard of living will be achieved to the extent the state does not get involved. And to be honest, I think that idea generally has legs. People operating in their own self interest will tend to do a better job of something then a bureaucracy.

It doesn't hold true for everything, but it does for a lot of things, and probably more things than not.

Medicine would be an example where self interested parties don't seem to do a great job. But it is true to say also that there is no lack of government intervention (even in the US), and I know doctors that do complain about how government health is run. My dad is a pharmacist and he complains all the time that the Australian PBS is incredibly wasteful, while acknowledging that something like it is necessary.

I also think it is important to say that while it is *clearly* an outrage someone should be excluded from adequate medical care for lack of money in a 1st world country, it is also true that there is a lot about health care that is not strictly speaking necessary in order for it to be delivered but that people would not generally be willing to do with out.

For example the personal relationship with your doctor is not medically necessary, but if you were forced to leave a GP you liked for no good reason you'd probably be pretty pissed off. And rightly so.

and it is areas of health care delivery like this, that centrally government run health care has a well earned reputation for stinking out loud.
Vash
Posts: 5407
Location:

Making the claim that Capitalism has saved lives by not being Marxist, is abit of a stretch, considering Capitalism by nature requires war, debt & misery to function.

Have you read much Orwell? He was a lifelong Socialist and absolutely condemned the regimes of the USSR & China, stating they were presented more as State Capitalism than Socialism (as is the situation in Venezuela)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism

You also forget the massive profit incentives that drive military force in Capitalist economies, the level of power wealth holders have over Government decision, disrupting democracy, and the countless deaths that are under the radar due to Government policy.
PornoPete
Posts: 2605
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Making the claim that Capitalism has saved lives by not being Marxist, is a bit of a stretch, considering Capitalism by nature requires war, debt & misery to function.


Actually democratic capitalist societies almost never go to war with each other vash. there is a large body of research supporting this. The EU is an explicit attempt to prevent war by having strong capital flows between countries of the EU. Again you're hysterical, you wail about propaganda, but the idea that capitalism requires war is Marxist propaganda, it is an empirically unsustainable claim.

You also forget the massive profit incentives that drive military force in Capitalist economies, the level of power wealth holders have over Government decision, disrupting democracy, and the countless deaths that are under the radar due to Government policy.


So numberless deaths. yeah ok. powerful s*** as always vash.

Have you read much Orwell? He was a lifelong Socialist and absolutely condemned the regimes of the USSR & China, stating they were presented more as State Capitalism than Socialism (as is the situation in Venezuela)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism


Have you? let me give you the quick cap review vash. A famous person saying it wasn't true marxism, is someone saying it wasn't true marxism.
Vash
Posts: 5408
Location:

Actually democratic capitalist societies almost never go to war with each other vash. there is a large body of research supporting this. The EU is an explicit attempt to prevent war by having strong capital flows between countries of the EU. Again you're hysterical, you wail about propaganda, but the idea that capitalism requires war is Marxist propaganda, it is an empirically unsustainable claim.


Except you're forgetting the countless regions invaded by a coalition of said societies, and the democracies toppled by the CIA, and puppet dictators put in. It's all there to read, no conspiracy theories here. They even moved in on Australian politics because Whitlam seemed alittle too Socialist.
So if you don't follow this coalition's way of doing things, you're an outsider & economically sanctioned, and perhaps invaded or toppled. This might be why certain states attempting Socialism had become so Authoritarian. To keep the USA from intervention in it. (Castro assassination attempts anyone?)

Might just be why North Korea is so Authoritarian & Militaristic as well. The USA aren't a nation of freedom & peace, and it will keep invading nations to sustain it's economy.
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