top_left top_right
bottom_left
Next Event: Unknown | Forum Rules | QGL Website | Event Registration
openFolder AusForums.com
iconwatfolderLineopenFolder LANs
iconwatfolderLineopenFolder QGL
iconwatfolderLineopenFolder QGL Forum
Author
Topic: Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any pro... Page: < 1 2 3 4 ... 6 7 8 9 >
Vash
Posts: 5201
Location:

It's funny because going by that, people must think that being a racist, a bigot, or a homophobe identifies with communism. It's actually the complete opposite.
That identifies with the far-right of the spectrum, if you've been paying attention to the things the the far-right say, that is (you probably haven't)

Considering everything you've learned PP is spewed from the propaganda machine, i think you've just described yourself perfectly.
PornoPete
Posts: 2416
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

it is enjoyable that your icon is a dude being punched in the face.

It's funny because going by that, people must think that being a racist, a bigot, or a homophobe identifies with communism.


no it just means don't be any of those things. but plain english was never your strong suit darling.

tell me more about how owning 700 billion dollars is a socialist act.
Vash
Posts: 5202
Location:

So, firstly, i never said America was socialist. I never said Apple was socialist. I simply said, Amercia was more Socialist than the USSR.
Here comes PP with trying the gotchas! You're a buffoon mate.
PornoPete
Posts: 2417
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yep America by aggressively and openly and constitutionally not embracing socialism is more socialist than the opposite of that.

I'm not your mate. I am concerned for your well-being.

still no citation to something chomsky wrote. the linguist who has never held an academic political science position. that guy who knows more about marxism than marx.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2034
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Chomsky hates authority mate.

Vash
Posts: 5203
Location:

Oh yes, anyone who chants something they're against surely has no characteristics of said thing they are against. Nup never happens. You're being naive.

Doesn't matter what i post, PP. You'll perform all kinds of mental gymnastics. Got better things to do.
PornoPete
Posts: 2418
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

by Mental gymnastics you mean pointing out that workers owning businesses making the US more socialist than the USSR is dumb because that plainly includes the board of goldman sachs as [evidence the US was] more socialist than the USSR. A state founded on the principles of das kapital. I'm "twisting" your words by quoting them verbatim.

you have still provided no evidence Chomsky said what you claim. But even if you did it would mean an award wining linguist is wrong about the nature of socialism. Chomsky has been singing the same tune since the 60s. The US is an aggressive imperialist state, by any reasonable definition of imperialist the US is not an empire. He is wrong.

Yes one of is doing mental gymnastics. Lets see if you can stick the landing you insufferable moron.
PornoPete
Posts: 2419
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

urgh the final words in that video.

"The idea that you can be paid to build something and not own it is an attack on human dignity."

Asking a builder to build my house for money is an attack on his human dignity. I just thought I was asking him to sell his services to me, but actually by failing to assign title to him at the end I was really saying he was less than human. Who knew right?
FaceMan
Posts: 12688
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
The person who wants the house built has Capital to invest.
He invests it in the Builder who builds the Home.

If that person chooses not to have the house built, the Builder has no job.
Someones ability to build something is a form of Capital.
The Builder no more owns the Home than the Homweowner owes the Builders business.

Its the free exchange that makes Capitalism unbeatable.
Unfortunately Government likes to take a cut of everything and regulations complicates the process to the extent that sometimes it prevents that free exchange taking place because the Builder or the Homeowner dont see enough profit to bother doing it.

When the Wealthy dont think its worthwhile spending then the mechanics of the Economy slow down.



Raven
Posts: 9407
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
"The idea that you can be paid to build something and not own it is an attack on human dignity."


What total bulls***. Following this kind of mentality is so bats*** insane that it would mean that when I go to Subway, the guy who made it still owns it. It would mean that I can't design an electronic circuit without physically creating all the ICs, resistors and capacitors I need for it myself, butfirst I have to mine the ore and melt it down to wire myself. That's how stupid this quote is.

We pay others to do things on our behalf because we are time poor.
PornoPete
Posts: 2420
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Chomsky said it though raven. Chomsky.

it is literally impossible he got it wrong. he is a "never worked at a university in this capacity" political scientist.

Its science.

you're wrong. And moreover the fact you think you have (you haven't because its science) detected a fault in his reasoning is the propaganda making you do mental gymnastics.
Vash
Posts: 5204
Location:

Nah it isn't bulls***. We're conditioned to think its completely normal to sell yourself and work your entire life. Society convinces you this is OK & Normal.
We are time poor because of Capitalism. You want to make something under Socialism? Do it. You can be an artist and not risk losing everything for that career choice.
Why do people hate mondays? they actually hate Capitalism.
PornoPete
Posts: 2421
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah its total bulls***.
paveway
Posts: 21218
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

legit cray
Raven
Posts: 9408
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Capitalism or not, I'm certain someone has something I'm willing to provide for them in exchange for providing me carrots, which I cbf growing myself. According to that quote, I shouldn't own those carrots. f*** that quote :)
Vash
Posts: 5205
Location:


He means private ownership vs belongings, two completely different things, especially when it comes to housing.
Housing is rapidly becoming something people profit from rather than the purpose of housing people.
Of course this is seen as normal because we're conditioned to believe that. It's lunacy to have something as necessary for survival as housing as a bargaining chip for investors.
And now Government is in so deep in the ponzi scheme the bubble will pop, and many people will go bankrupt.

Socialism means you have a house, you live in it, it is a part of your belongings & not owned by Government. (Housing in the USSR was owned by Government) and you cant buy other houses & profit from people living in them because that would be rude.

When it comes to subway & carrots, he's not saying there is no trade. People can be self sufficient for their food requirements. Automation will eventually handle the rest.

If you want to learn more on the subject though, Chomsky Philosophy channel is pretty good. I'm still learning myself.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHuLYgw4dGbC2BuZQqPWV1g


PornoPete
Posts: 2422
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Housing in the USSR was not owned by anyone you dolt.

They didn't believe in property.

It really is an all new level of insanity you bring to this thread.

Chomsky is flat out wrong.
Vash
Posts: 5207
Location:

Breaking away from the norm you'll always be labelled insane, means i'm on the right track ;)
Intellectuals say we should fear Capitalism, they're just bats*** insane arent they? Lol.
PornoPete
Posts: 2423
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Chomsky says it not "intellectuals".

you are not a misunderstood genius. You are a powerfully ill-informed moron.
Vash
Posts: 5208
Location:

Chomsky says it not "intellectuals".

you are not a misunderstood genius. You are a powerfully ill-informed moron.


I'm no genius. I just have enough common sense to listen to very intelligent people instead of very dumb people like you and people on the far-right.
PornoPete
Posts: 2424
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

haha. Funny really.

you like to listen to people who say paying someone to work is an attack on their human dignity. pointing out that this is bats*** insane makes me "far-right". you're a crazy person.

I think I've changed my mind, your icon isn't you getting punched in the face. Its you smashing your face against a glove attached to the wall.
Vash
Posts: 5209
Location:


I never said you were far-right. You've just proven again how dumb you are.

I also like to listen to Stephen Hawking.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/stephen-hawking-capitalism-robots_us_5616c20ce4b0dbb8000d9f15

Stephen Hawking Says We Should Really Be Scared Of Capitalism, Not Robots


Is he dumb and insane, PP?

Also, my avatar is a photo of Tony Abbott being punched. If you have a photo of you being punched i'd like to put it up.


PornoPete
Posts: 2425
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

oh quick refer to a paragraph from a reddit thread.

Gee the argument is over.

You sure showed me. Moron.

Also, my avatar is a photo of Tony Abbott being punched


No its you bashing your own face against a stationary fist.
Vash
Posts: 5210
Location:

Er yeah, cos Stephen hawking posted to reddit. Suddenly reddit makes it meaningless? You're a weird fella.
PornoPete
Posts: 2426
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

er because stephen hawking didn't refute capitalism in 100 words on reddit where the explicit topic is what happens in a world were human labour is entirely unnecessary.

Dumby. There is a reason the appeal to authority is a rhetorical fallacy.
Vash
Posts: 5211
Location:

So perhaps you should take what they're saying seriously if you don't want the world to turn into a dystopian nightmare, that is.
PornoPete
Posts: 2427
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah ok drama queen.
fpot
Posts: 25784
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

It's already a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people on the earth. What makes you think we're not next? All the pieces are in play for it to happen, and with Trump elected, white just made its first move.
Vash
Posts: 5212
Location:

It's already a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people on the earth. What makes you think we're not next? All the pieces are in play for it to happen, and with Trump elected, white just made its first move.


True, Capitalism just allows a very small amount of people to live unsustainably comfortable while the majority of the world suffers. Hooray. Now Trump wants to make that super comfy pool even smaller.
PornoPete
Posts: 2428
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It's already a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people on the earth.


What does that even mean fpot?

What has happened here is Vash has been shown to have radically misunderstood what he was talking about *again* and is now engaging in his usual rhetorical technique of he just cares about the planet.

The other gem he loves is citing scientists as authorities on political issues, when it is either inappropriate or simply does not do the mental labour he needs it to.

The world is a dystopian nightmare because robots have made human labour a thing of the past for exactly zero people.
Vash
Posts: 5213
Location:

The world is a dystopian nightmare because robots have made human labour a thing of the past for exactly zero people.


Could you say anything more dumb?
PornoPete
Posts: 2429
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

have robots made human labour a thing of the past? its a factual statement numb nuts.
Vash
Posts: 5214
Location:

exactly zero people.


Factually incorrect statement, many people's jobs have been replaced by automation already. In China's manufacturing robots are rapidly being expanded, for one example.
And the job losses are going to come in waves as the technology expands.
fpot
Posts: 25785
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

I don't really wish to partake in the robot discussion. All I was pointing out is that the world already is a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people living in it, and the notion that someone is a drama queen for suggesting we're next is silly because in reality it is more or less inevitable. At this stage all we can do is delay it and hopefully make it less of a dystopian nightmare.
PornoPete
Posts: 2430
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Is there still a need for human labour?

because if so, those people have not lost their job because human labour is now totally unnecessary. Which means hawking's comment has been decontextualized.

you are also now fellating the Luddite fallacy.
Vash
Posts: 5215
Location:

Well in that case, Hawking is also fellating the Luddite fallacy. It seems to be an easily disprovable fallacy though, considering how much technology is capable of.
PornoPete
Posts: 2431
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

All I was pointing out is that the world already is a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the people living in it,


What does this even mean fpot? specifically how is it a dystopian nightmare for the majority of the human race. That seems to me to be a very radical statement.

Well in that case, Hawking is also fellating the Luddite fallacy. It seems to be an easily disprovable fallacy though, considering how much technology is capable of.


No he isn't, he is specifically talking about a hypothetical future situation which you are now treating as an inevitability which is far from the case.

get on your bike disproving the luddite fallacy then dumby. if its so easy. Let me give you a hint. Saying "technology is capable of so much" doesn't do it.
Vash
Posts: 5216
Location:

Alittle bit of thinking and you can do it yourself, PP. Look at what's in development and what scientists are saying are a matter of time on what robots can do, and you'll get there.
PornoPete
Posts: 2432
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

so you can't then vash.

well colour me surprised.
Viper119
Posts: 3234
Location: Other International


As compelling as some of Chomsky's ideas initially are, and some of them like the idea of manufacturing consent in a democracy have a lot of truth in them I think, there's a reason he's widely discredited. So he's not really the bastion of academic authority you think him to be, Vash.

Presumably fpot is referring to the fact that most people on Earth don't have the same living standards as us jolly first worlders?


Nearly 1/2 of the world's population, more than 3 billion people, live on less than $2.50 a day. More than 1.3 billion live in extreme poverty, less than $1.25 a day.

1 billion children worldwide are living in poverty. According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty.

805 million people worldwide do not have enough food to eat.

More than 750 million people lack adequate access to clean drinking water. Diarrhea caused by inadequate drinking water, sanitation, and hand hygiene kills an estimated 842,000 people every year globally, or approximately 2,300 people per day.

1/4 of all humans live without electricity, approximately 1.6 billion people.

80% of the world population lives on less than $10 a day.

Oxfam estimates that it would take $60 billion annually to end extreme global poverty--that's less than 1/4 the income of the top 100 richest billionaires.
https://www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-global-poverty

That is a bit of a dystopian nightmare for those people, no?

Interested as to why most experts don't think we'll eventually get to Strong AI, trog?
PornoPete
Posts: 2433
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Well now wait on.

People live in Australia in poverty. does that mean Australia is a "dystopian nightmare"? cause I think rather plainly it isn't.

Poverty is awful, but the idea Australia is headed to a sub-Saharan standard of living is a little over the top you'd surely agree.
fpot
Posts: 25786
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

I guess there's differences between living in poverty in Australia and living in poverty in the third world. If you're homeless or poor in Australia and walk into a hospital dying or gravely ill you'll be treated. If you're assaulted and you walk into a police station it will be investigated. Those two things, among others, wouldn't be available to many people living in poverty in the third world where medical care is not as available and governments and the police are extremely corrupt.

When you narrow it down some it no longer becomes the majority but rather a significant percentage that makes up at least hundreds of millions of people. End-game capitalism, which is surely in the same sort of time frame as the widespread use robotic automation, will be a chaotic mess of mothers eating their own young and rampant guillotine use unless steps are made to unf*** things yesterday.
Vash
Posts: 5217
Location:

there's a reason he's widely discredited. So he's not really the bastion of academic authority you think him to be, Vash.


Would love to see where & who discredits him. I haven't seen this anywhere, as yet. He's widely known as a left intellectual, many people listen to his ideas, and plenty have attempted to debate him in the past, losing horribly.
PornoPete
Posts: 2434
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Thats because you're dumb vash and think statements like paying people to work is an attack on their human dignity isn't self discrediting.

will be a chaotic mess of mothers eating their own young and rampant guillotine use unless steps are made to unf*** things yesterday.


Ok so let me see if I follow you.

every technological advance in the history of the world has been a net benefit for the poor, so odds on for advance robotics are we will all have even more comfortable lives. Captialism just raised 1 billion people in china and south east asia over the last 20 years out of extreme poverty.

but because trump got elected there is a real risk that within the next 4 to 8 years, wide spread cannibalism due to extreme poverty will become a reality in Australia?

you don't have to call that being a drama queen. but its not inaccurate.
fpot
Posts: 25787
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

You have a real problem with taking things that aren't meant to be taken literally, literally. It's borne from you being really pedantic, which is okay, except your own posts are usually full of the same exaggerations and hyperbole others use and that you delight on calling them out on. Which would also be okay, if it was being used ironically, which it isn't.

It makes you really insufferable to discuss things with. You may have noticed on here, and dare I say real life, that people sometimes simply ignore what you say or just give it a cautionary nod. I am pretty sure you realise why, but just be careful never to think it's because what you're saying is especially profound and that people are shy to reply or anything like that.

But hey, I kind of like you, so I'll say no, widespread cannibalism isn't a real possibility in the next four to eight years (you literally just imagined those numbers in your own head btw) and that I was simply saying that when society reaches its end game and resources are scarce and everyone hates refugees and different coloured people we're more f***ed than we're going to be then if we actually took steps to unf*** ourselves, and that it may be too late to unf*** ourselves and now that Trump is elected we're going to lose four maybe eight years of time that could be spent preparing and instead dig the hole a little deeper.
paveway
Posts: 21220
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

You have a real problem with taking things that aren't meant to be taken literally, literally. It's borne from you being really pedantic,


If i remember correctly pornopete was studying / is probably finished a law degree and is a lawyer

So you are arguing with someone who is paid to argue in general / knit pick points to suit their argument
PornoPete
Posts: 2437
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

suit their argument,
that's unfair paveway. ;)



Let me rephrase fpot

four to eight years being the constitutionally enshrined terms trump can possibly serve, you believe he will set in motion, a series of events that will make widespread poverty in australia (as understood in places much poorer that australia) or insert the meaning of "dystopian nightmare" here.

Is that a fair assessment? because if you mean in 200 years Australia will be f***ed I can assure you are wasting your time thinking about it. You are probably wasting your time thinking about if you mean 50 years in the future. needless to say I consider the moniker drama queen is appropriate.

Like you too.
Vash
Posts: 5221
Location:

Well he certainly is bad at nit picking arguments if his posts are anything to go by. Hope the career goes well PP!
paveway
Posts: 21221
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I have been watching you all gnash your teeth arguing with porno

To him you are just practice

This thread reminds me of this:

https://youtu.be/5_3Tu32OUSs
Vash
Posts: 5222
Location:

Interesting perspective, pave. But from my view every post of PP's is to appear intellectual but with no substance behind it and plenty of flustering.
paveway
Posts: 21222
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I am not taking either side

Though i think it is pretty rich coming from you how much you talk communism and communist ideology yet can't really bring any substance from the famous communist texts around that PP clearly has a whole lot more knowledge about than you.

I am talking purely from the point of view of arguing.
Vash
Posts: 5223
Location:

Well you haven't been paying attention in that case, pave. This forum isn't the place to discuss those topics it seems, it gets too emotional for some people.. You know, the f*** off commie kinda stuff.
PornoPete
Posts: 2439
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

But from my view every post of PP's is to appear intellectual but with no substance behind it and plenty of flustering.


Practically guarantees I have a god level intellect Vash.
Viper119
Posts: 3237
Location: Other International

Yeah I figured Pete to be quite the debater fairly early on so was less inclined to go too deep with him after that! However I also find he generally raises rather good points and makes interesting arguments that give me pause to reconsider or expand my views, which I always appreciate. The only thing I'm not a fan of is going heavy on attacking the person instead of the argument, although it's kinda understandable with Vash ;)

That's some pretty spectacular self-delusion you've got going on there Vash! :o

Pete's posts are pretty much all substance (sans the personal attacks) which I'll defo agree is disconcerting for any preexisting views you had that are being challenged.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38846
Location: USA

knit pick
nitpick :D
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38847
Location: USA

This article randomly popped up on Twitter & I thought it was interesting (& funny; the rest of the blog is pretty entertaining too): The 20th Century, Now in Reruns:
If America had an intelligent upper class, they would have looked at all this and thought: Holy crap we're lucky we got out of the 20th Century alive. We must at all costs avoid making those mistakes again.

Instead, the actual American upper class—with no more Harrimans with a living memory of the Depression and World War II—looked at it and thought: Let's make EVERY SINGLE MISTAKE AGAIN.

That's what's happening right now. Rather than understanding that the problem of the 20th Century was the refusal of capitalism to compromise with human beings, they think the problem of the 20th Century was the few compromises capitalism did make. In fact, even the European upper classes seem to have now forgotten what their grandparents learned via the most direct experience possible.

So they're getting rid of the compromises as quickly as they can. Their goal is apparently to rewind the clock to 1900, add resource wars and incipient environmental catastrophe, and see if history turns out differently this time.
It has something for everyone in it, it s***s on communism AND capitalism!

edit: writer is a former Daily Show writer I believe.
FaceMan
Posts: 12694
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
If you set rules on how people should address you, you will never hear the Truth.

Sausage Gate
This is an Outrage !


trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38848
Location: USA

Wait. Was it a pork sausage?! Is he a secrat mulim like Obama?!
Vash
Posts: 5225
Location:

The only thing I'm not a fan of is going heavy on attacking the person instead of the argument, although it's kinda understandable with Vash


Are we reading the same posts? The ones where PP's attacking the character of people rather than the argument? I think you should read the last page or two.
Pretty much disproven all his crap on Socialism & Communism, but hey, we live in a Capitalist society so i don't expect people to know anything about it :) carry on then.
Viper119
Posts: 3238
Location: Other International

Yeah I have read it all, by which I mean I understand why Pete has slowly but surely descended into attacking the character. You cray Vash! ;)

That SkyNews video is ridonkulous, this is why we can't have nice things.

That article is great trog, nice one.
PornoPete
Posts: 2440
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Pretty much disproven all his crap on Socialism & Communism, but hey, we live in a Capitalist society so i don't expect people to know anything about it


Naw bless.

FaceMan
Posts: 12696
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Wait. Was it a pork sausage?! Is he a secrat mulim like Obama?!


I didnt even think of that, Id better tell FaceDad.
If I was Racist/Bigoted wouldnt that be something I would think of straight away?

I thought it was insulting to Australians to not eat a sausage sanger/sizzle when it was offered. Australias Culture revolves around celebrations. At around 200 years of White settlement and lots of migration we dont really have that 1000 year old Cultural history of other Nations.

Yes Aboriginals do but for a variety of reasons that has not become part of what we are today. Even though it is continually pushed on to us via cringe-worthy ceremonies at special events. Nobody is doing Aboriginal cultural things at home down on Struggle St or Rooty Hill.

But they sure do love their BBQs and the Sausage Sizzles on Election days.
We really are a unique Nation.

trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38850
Location: USA

I thought it was insulting to Australians to not eat a sausage sanger/sizzle when it was offered.
well I have some good news for you: it's not
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38854
Location: USA

More good news for Australia (& the rest of the world): conferences jumping ship from the US and moving overseas. This has come up a few times recently about some big name conferences relocating to Canada.

With more news about traveling to the papers-please land of the USA like extreme vetting at the border, I have cancelled one personal trip to the USA already, avoided one work trip, and hope to not have to go back in the near future.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2036
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

With more news about traveling to the papers-please land of the USA like extreme vetting at the border, I have cancelled one personal trip to the USA already, avoided one work trip, and hope to not have to go back in the near future.


That's interesting. I heard about a friend of a friend who has an Aussie passport but was born in the UK so he had a passport when he was like 10 or something.

The US check point form wanted the number of the previous passport which obviously he didn't have. This then meant it went to some other extra vetting process. They ended up cancelling the trip to hawaii and just going to Fiji because the checking process was going to take 72+ hours and it was cutting it fine for their departure date.
Raven
Posts: 9410
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
With more news about traveling to the papers-please land of the USA like extreme vetting at the border, I have cancelled one personal trip to the USA already, avoided one work trip, and hope to not have to go back in the near future.

Yeah, I've been planning on going to the US for JavaOne, but what respectable IT employee is going to hand over passwords to the US Government just to go to a conference?
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38859
Location: USA

The absolute best thing you can do is not go. Forcing the conference to deal with low attendees will make them change locations. If they change to Australia we win. You can then consider yourself a soldier in ECONOMIC WARFARE, the best warfare!
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7609
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2038
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Lel
https://twitter.com/PRESlDENTBANNON/status/850072144721661952

1. Say you won't go to war if elected
2. Get elected
3. Tell Syrian dictator he can stay
4. Watch dictator gas people
5. Go to war

Winning


Vash
Posts: 5226
Location:

kek

http://i.cubeupload.com/cR6bbr.jpg
PornoPete
Posts: 2444
Location: Melbourne, Victoria


Lel
https://twitter.com/PRESlDENTBANNON/status/850072144721661952

1. Say you won't go to war if elected
2. Get elected
3. Tell Syrian dictator he can stay
4. Watch dictator gas people
5. Go to war

Winning


That feeling when you're making political points over destroying a chemical weapons depot.
Viper119
Posts: 3239
Location: Other International


Yeow, that's a bit rich I think, Pete. The hypocrisy is strong, and I'm not sure the supposed inherent good of destroying chemical weapons overrules that.

I'll just leave this here:

Majority Of Republicans Voted 'No' When Obama Wanted To Launch A Strike On Syria

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/entry/republicans-strike-syria-trump_us_58e6f71de4b051b9a9da355d

In 2013, when a sarin nerve gas attack left more than 1,400 dead outside Damascus, President Barack Obama went to Congress to get approval to strike.

In a vote, 183 Republicans voted against bombing the country. Only 12 Republicans, including then-House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), voted with the president to launch a strike. Ultimately, Congress did not approve the strike, with 243 Congressional members voting against it.

In the past, Trump appeared as an anti-interventionist, criticizing Obama's choice to use force in Syria. But Trump declined to seek Congressional approval before launching Thursday's attack.
http://i63.tinypic.com/2rfa2p5.png

Link: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/373146637184401408?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw


Vash
Posts: 5227
Location:

It should always be pointed out when leaders say something critical of their opponents and then do that exact thing. The credibility of our leaders should be important.
PornoPete
Posts: 2445
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Lets take it as read trump is hypocritical.

Maybe that isn't what I'm talking about.

wouldn't want to let trump set the standard of political discourse after all old bean.
PornoPete
Posts: 2446
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Majority Of Republicans Voted 'No' When Obama Wanted To Launch A Strike On Syria


Here is a slightly more comprehensive history of the 2013 red line

the idea that Obama wanted to do more but was blocked by an obstructionist congress is simply untrue. Obama got in to fights with successive secretaries of state not to get involved in Syria.

You should avoid huffpo.
FaceMan
Posts: 12702
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Sausage Gate has taken a disturbing turn...

For NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian, the much-loved election-day sausage snag seems to go better without the slice of white bread. The premier raised eyebrows after being snapped eating a democracy sausage sans bread while campaigning at a polling booth in Manly during Saturday's by-elections.

Opposition leader Luke Foley was quick to comment on the gluten-free choice. "Unlike Gladys, I prefer my sausage sandwich with bread," the Labor leader tweeted, along with a picture of him chowing down on a sandwich outside a Gosford polling booth.

http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/berejiklian-opts-for-nobread-sausage-snag/news-story/da18e1c1176d885dc2aa0ff121aa780c

Out of touch with real Australian values.


Vash
Posts: 5228
Location:


Classic right-wingers. Polls looking poor? Time to ramp up military & terrorism rhetoric!

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-navy-strike-group-sails-toward-korean-peninsula-as-nuclear-tensions-rise-20170409-gvh14q.html


PornoPete
Posts: 2447
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

what do you mean vash.

link that article to that statement.

or are you going to apply your "socialist" reasoning.

because Trump really has to worry about the polls 100 days into a 4 year tenure with a super majority.
paveway
Posts: 21226
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Facey still outraged about a sausage that no one else gives a s*** about

Maybe she is glutten intolerant or maybe she is ceciac.

Grow the f*** up
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38872
Location: USA

If you don't read news.com.au you don't know what to be enraged about - it's very liberating
Vash
Posts: 5229
Location:

same with theaustralian.com.au
But somehow i still find myself heading back there when i need to be reminded how stupid humans can be.

Noticed recently how much they're cheerleading that anti islam chick. About the only time conservatives will pay attention to a refugee in a positive light. kek
fpot
Posts: 25795
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

newsdotcomdotau is the dumb c*** who at least knows they're a dumb c*** so it's not too embarrassing. theaustralian is the dumb c*** who doesn't know it and my god that's some shameful s***.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2041
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Remember how the carbon tax would ramp up electricity bills?

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/energy-crisis-wholesale-power-prices-have-doubled-since-the-carbon-tax-was-axed-20170308-gutf8t.html

Yeahhhhhhhhhh.


PornoPete
Posts: 2448
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

what I find so enjoyable about vash is he uses kek now and when 1400 people have been killed by sarin gas.

I just really enjoy how he and redhat were worried about the tone of political debate would fall if trump got in. (though it seems some piggies are more than a little accustomed to the mud eh)

It really is glorious how little self awareness is involved.

so how about those swedes hey, last night. <---- do you get it?

If only they'd been involved in less wars in the last 200 years and been less Islamophobic. wonder what that "anti islam womans" view might be on the subject.

see what I did there viper?

theaustralian is the dumb c*** who doesn't know it and my god that's some shameful s***.


the guardian is for the dumb c*** who likes to wank with that shameful s***.
fpot
Posts: 25796
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

The guardian is undeniably a left leaning publication. The Australian is bona fide right wing propoganda trash. It's foolish to compare them. Perhaps huffpost would make a more apt comparison but I'm going by reputation only as I don't really read huffpost at all.
PornoPete
Posts: 2449
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Dude the guardian is at least as bad as the Australian.

You need a serious reality check if you think otherwise.

they are so far up their own confirmation bias hole, they published this confirmed hoax article. If you think they aren't telling you what you want to hear you are sorely mistaken.
Vash
Posts: 5230
Location:

eh, its an opinion piece. Sounds about right too, as i've seen it happen myself. Millennials love their memes, and the alt right movement seem good at it. "kek"
Viper119
Posts: 3241
Location: Other International

I'm afraid I don't, maybe I'm just not self aware enough or following the thread that closely, please enlighten me kind sir.

On Syria, isn't that conflating two separate things? 1) Majority of Republicans voting no to Obama's airstrikes in response to chemical weapon use, 2) Obama's general intent to not get involved in Syria. I accept the point about Obama's general failings in foreign policy and not wanting to do more in Syria on the whole. That doesn't change the fact he did try to do an airstrike retaliation for the chemical weapon use, even though it was reluctant, which was voted down by Republicans, so the hypocrisy point re: Trump's recent action holds I think.

If we're decrying all these news outlets as s***rolls, please pray tell what bastions of insightful truth you read? (Though I'm not defending news.com.au or huffpost)
PornoPete
Posts: 2450
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Sounds about right too, as I've seen it happen myself.

You are familiar with the concept of a hoax. the fact you agree with it is proof positive of confirmation bias. the point of the exercise was to see if they would publish an article which appealed to his perception of their biases and the Guardian dutifully obliged.

I'm afraid I don't, maybe I'm just not self aware enough or following the thread that closely, please enlighten me kind sir.


*edit*FWIW I specifically excluded you from that sentence*/edit*

You cannot simultaneously say trump is a fine purveyor hate speech *edit* and this will destroy democracy as we know it */edit*, and then be all "lol a bunch of Syrian children were gassed". but seeing as we want to play that game apparently lol trump was totally right about Sweden. Guess the Swedish government should have spent more time posing for photo opps in hijabs hey?


On Syria, isn't that conflating two separate things? 1) Majority of Republicans voting no to Obama's airstrikes in response to chemical weapon use, 2) Obama's general intent to not get involved in Syria.


I disagree that is a conflation. for a start he took it to congress only after he was having doubts about going through with it, that is very clear from the Atlantic article. If you were to come to me with a proposition to bomb another country but you didn't really want to do it, I'd vote exactly the same way.

It does not mean that Trump's tweet is un-hypocritical, but make no mistake that strike is in keeping with broader American foreign policy since at least 1991.

If you want my cynical reading of it, politically it plays well for two reasons. 1) there is now an actual red line. 2) it is now difficult to argue he is Putin's man. there is no way to cut it that this is good for Putin's plans in Syria. and as for the hypocritical nature of it, he can always point to the fact that Assad is using chemical weapons on his own people, and say, I'll be a hypocrite and do something when children are gassed. It's going to be difficult to credibly take him to task on it.

If we're decrying all these news outlets as s***rolls, please pray tell what bastions of insightful truth you read?


I don't read a single one anymore, because you can't. For stuff like this Syrian strike I go to as many as I can, and then try to extract a coherent whole. Generally, the NYtimes and the AFR strike me as pretty good. TBH the Australian's legal section is actually pretty good. I still trust the ABC and the BBC, though the BBC less so these days.

Journalism in general seems to have been poisoned by a hoard of millennial bloggers who know a lot about Foucault (well at least have read a lot) and how to push a narrative and virtually nothing else.
Viper119
Posts: 3242
Location: Other International

You cannot simultaneously say trump is a fine purveyor hate speech *edit* and this will destroy democracy as we know it */edit*, and then be all "lol a bunch of Syrian children were gassed". but seeing as we want to play that game apparently lol trump was totally right about Sweden. Guess the Swedish government should have spent more time posing for photo opps in hijabs hey?


What you talking bout willis!? I don't think I've been towing those lines to that degree at all tbh, are you confusing me with someone else? Please point out where I was all 'this will destroy democracy' or 'lol a bunch of Syrian children were gassed'.

I see your point, however it's still pretty poor imo, or perhaps that's just how politics is now. There were Republicans demanding Obama go to congress first as it's an act of war who have now supported Trump striking unilaterally without congressional approval.

Yeah that's generally what I do. I've found Vox to be pretty good at trying to do a impartial fact based assessment these days.
PornoPete
Posts: 2452
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

What you talking bout willis!? I don't think I've been towing those lines to that degree at all tbh


I never said you did. but it is what I am getting at with this line.

That feeling when you're making political points over destroying a chemical weapons depot.


Which you appeared to confuse with endorsing the strike.

There were Republicans demanding Obama go to congress first as it's an act of war who have now supported Trump striking unilaterally without congressional approval.


I have little doubt there were, and as I have said not seeking congressional approval is hypocritical for Trump at least. However, I see an important difference between that and house republicans not voting for a plan the president was clearly second guessing, and being ok with this.

and moreover, you will be able to find democrats calling this unilateralism an assault democracy who happily oversaw Obama's dramatic expansion of the drone program.

It is never the less not good that we appear to be heading toward intervention. I would much rather stay out.
Viper119
Posts: 3243
Location: Other International

Ahh you kinda did, though I get what you're extrapolating to now, so okay. Though I obvs find it rather disagreeable. That's defo not been my meaning on those posts.

From my perspective, I questioned whether political point scoring is a valid criticism, whether destroying chemical weapons is inherently good, and made the point that the hypocrisy is really apparent.

That all ties into the sentiment of the larger political point at hand I think. I sort of agree with the scoring political points thing, but then at the same time, isn't everything political now? Especially anything geopolitical related? To strike or not in Syria, to attack North Korea over their missiles or not, to stop China dominating the South China Sea? Where do you draw the line?

Yeah for sure, it's also the democrats, I guess it's just depressing to see the politics so obviously partisan.

I am also not a fan interventionism really.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7612
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Syria.. the new Vietnam
PornoPete
Posts: 2453
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

From my perspective, I questioned whether political point scoring is a valid criticism, whether destroying chemical weapons is inherently good, and made the point that the hypocrisy is really apparent.


Appreciated, however what I was attempting to point out, poorly it would seem, is that sir redhat and vash are both balls deep in the political correctness is a good thing and trump is bad for disregarding it.

It seems to me if we need to be sensitive to feels, specially to our Islamic chums, taking the attitude "lol trump won't tolerate a bunch of them (including children) being gassed" is somewhat problematic.
fpot
Posts: 25799
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Sean Spicer 'not even Hitler used chemical weapons' lol
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38877
Location: USA

Rent don't buy, losers!

Also are they seriously talking about letting people use their super to buy houses with?!

I like the idea of encouraging people to move regionally through incentives but not sure how well it will work. Better transport options out to smaller towns I think would make a big difference. Bring on the high speed rail amirite?
Viper119
Posts: 3245
Location: Other International


Oh I see, I misconstrued that point as being about me, my bad cuz!

Yeah I agree on the pc and 'regressive left' thing, I don't think it's helping at all and it is of questionable validity in many areas. People are never persuaded through ridicule, condescension or condemnation - which seems to be the primary tactic of the far left these days.

I thought this was interesting: http://warisboring.com/how-will-russia-respond-to-trumps-tomahawk-strike/

I read somewhere but can't find it now, that the Syrians evacuated the air base just before the strike, and planes are flying from it post strike. So maybe it was more of a signal to China re: North Korea than anything else.


Vash
Posts: 5232
Location:

ridicule, condescension or condemnation - which seems to be the primary tactic of the far left these days.


Unfortunately that's the only option left when facts & logic doesn't cut it.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7613
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Rent don't buy, losers!

Also are they seriously talking about letting people use their super to buy houses with?!

I like the idea of encouraging people to move regionally through incentives but not sure how well it will work. Better transport options out to smaller towns I think would make a big difference. Bring on the high speed rail amirite?


Can't do that bro, that would make too much sense. We can't have the pollies investment properties going down in value.

P.S Xenophon has 8 investment properties
PornoPete
Posts: 2454
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Unfortunately that's the only option left when facts & logic doesn't cut it.


It's adorable you think you've ever posted anything approximating either.
Vash
Posts: 5233
Location:


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/apr/12/cormann-stares-down-one-nations-demand-to-cut-600m-from-abc?CMP=soc_56

One Nation & Trumpsters can't have people criticising their awful ideology. Shut it down!
Rukh
Posts: 1078
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
One Nation & Trumpsters can't have people criticising their awful ideology. Shut it down!


https://heatst.com/life/u-of-sydney-bans-the-red-pill-film-because-it-has-capacity-to-physically-threaten-women/

Feminists can't have people criticising their awful ideology. Shut it down!


I'm not sure how screening a film has the capacity to physically threaten women by the way.

last edited by Rukh at 11:40:19 13/Apr/17
Vash
Posts: 5234
Location:

Whats awful about feminism? I'm genuinely curious. Obviously the obnoxious one's who scream at police for violating their rights when they break the law, aren't what i see as examples of the feminist movement.
It's cool to hate on it i guess.
Rukh
Posts: 1080
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Whats awful about feminism? I'm genuinely curious. Obviously the obnoxious one's who scream at police for violating their rights when they break the law, aren't what i see as examples of the feminist movement. It's cool to hate on it i guess.


If you see feminism purely as advocating for equality for women with men, I have absolutely nothing against it, and would in fact support it.

Such a definition would define most people in the west (and maybe more of the world) I imagine.

Of course there's another word for supporting equality of the sexes etc. Egalitarianism.

So yes, I have nothing against that type of feminism.

I might ask things like "what actual rights do women lack in our society that men possess" but, if you can identify some I'm supportive of addressing things so that equality is attained.


The problem however is that feminism as its defined in academia through women's studies/gender studies/sociology etc. programs as well as practiced by university student feminists, and more troubling by politicians, journalists and lobbyists in positions to influence policies and affect actual change, is *not* just about advocacy for women to achieve equal rights.

That brand of feminism, much like marxism and captialism, is an ideology with its own set of beliefs and concepts. Central to such feminism, the feminism that actually has an influence, is Patriarchy Theory. That is, the theory that society and its structures have been set up by men to oppress women for the benefit of men. They see men as oppressors and women as the oppressed. Basically it's a re-imagining of Marxism which puts women in the role of the proletariat and men in the role of the bourgeoisie. It claims that it is this Patriarchy which instills and enforces gender roles. It rejects the idea that maybe the reverse is true and it is biologically influenced gender roles which create the society which has the appearance of being a "patriarchy".

It claims that we, in western society, live in a rape culture whereby we accept and allow the raping of women rather than the reality whereby it's punished heavily both legally and socially and is considered to be in the top tier of despised things one can do to someone else along with murder and child abuse.

Its a movement that not only rejects contrary evidence or viewpoints but actively seeks to silence any discussion of such evidence.

Its a movement that still claims to be for equality and against discrimination but pushes for laws that *only* mention protecting women even when gender neutral terms could be used and then criticises people that actually do care about equality for daring to speak up pointing out their hypocrisy.

Its a movement that will take a statistic that women (on average) earn about 77c on the dollar to what men (on average) earn and claim that that means that individual women get paid 23% less than individual men for the same work. (And will totally ignore spending power statistics that show men and women have roughly equal spending power which is a far more useful statistic anyway).

Its a movement that claims, through academic definitions that it's impossible to be sexist against men (or racist against whites etc.).

Its a movement that claims that women can be *physically threatened* by the screening of a film..... I mean I know The Red Pill can be confrontational to watch but it's not like it's The Ring come to life....





FaceMan
Posts: 12705
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
The North Korean problem is getting a bit out of control.

War is not a game, North Korea is a bit like Israel, if they go down they will pull the World down with them. Lean on China more.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2042
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

The North Korean problem is getting a bit out of control.

War is not a game, North Korea is a bit like Israel, if they go down they will pull the World down with them. Lean on China more.

Yeah WTF, is the media beating this up or are is the US and by that, also us on the brink of war?

Thank fug I am too old and busted to be conscripted.
Jim
Posts: 13693
Location: UK

Unfortunately that's the only option left when you're unable to support your position with arguments that withstand scrutiny

fixed
Vash
Posts: 5239
Location:


So much for that Luddite fallacy



https://www.businessinsider.com.au/robots-may-make-legal-workers-obsolete-2015-8?r=US&IR=T


Spook
Posts: 40547
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
came to post concern over north korea situation.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7619
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
^ it's just theatre, sabre rattling etc.

Kim jong Ronery needs to do a song and dance once and while so his starving population are too busy to realize he is a fraud.

Trump could achieve victory by carpet bombing North Korea with pop tarts wrapped in revolutionary propaganda grease paper.
Spook
Posts: 40548
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
they both crazy though
Vash
Posts: 5253
Location:

Imperialist U.S beating the war drums as is usual with republican presidents.
Media & economy love war. It feeds Capitalism nicely.
Not so good for the people on the receiving end though.
PornoPete
Posts: 2468
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Remind the class which system of government NK uses Vash.
Vash
Posts: 5254
Location:

State capitalism my good man. Or socialism for the elite, in other words. Just another form of soviet style governance.
PornoPete
Posts: 2469
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

You are such an adorable moron.
paveway
Posts: 21229
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

State capitalism my good man


lol w0t
PornoPete
Posts: 2470
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It really is special.

He knows more about islam than imams and more about socialism than lenin mao and marx combined.

Kim Jung Un is really just a misunderstood CEO.
Vash
Posts: 5255
Location:

* N U K E D *

Reason: Disruptive
Click Here to See the Profile for Vash Edit This Post Click Here to send Vash an email Users HomePage Message User
PornoPete
Posts: 2471
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

* N U K E D *

Reason: Disruptive
Click Here to See the Profile for PornoPete Edit This Post Click Here to send PornoPete an email Users HomePage Message User
Vash
Posts: 5256
Location:



heheh
Rukh
Posts: 1089
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
That Tony Abbott rap is gold lol
Dazzagc
Posts: 1558
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

457 Visa is now official BANNED...
notgreazy
Posts: 687
Location: Other International


457 Visa is now official BANNED...

....
The Federal Government will abolish the 457 visa and replace it with two new visas, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull says.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-18/government-abolishing-457-visas/8450310
simul
Posts: 1666
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
457 Visa is now official BANNED...


Indian food is about to get much worse. Bazza the cook will have a job though, so now he can buy higher quality weed.

In summary: a strategic move to get browny points with the idiots and racists, especially those who can't get jobs because they are incompetent.
Raven
Posts: 9418
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Good. The point of the 457 Visa is to allow companies to fill gaps in education and skills. Two years is plenty of time to train someone of slightly lower experience. If you're going for a BS wishlist of 8 years experience with some random technology, and often times still paying the equivalent of someone with no experience, why is that okay as a long-term plan? As a company owner/manager it's your responsibility to help develop the skills amongst society which your companies requires to operate, not rely on them just being someone elses problem.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38883
Location: USA

Two years is plenty of time to train someone of slightly lower experience.
Not if you are growing / expanding rapidly and need to fill holes in order to stay competitive on the international scene
FaceMan
Posts: 12710
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Tony Abbott is making a play for the top job.
Hes prolly the only one that could at least claim the Public did vote for him as PM (yeah elected by Party)

Turnbull has to resign.
His 3 attempts at a selfie with the Leader of India - a Nuclear Power - on a Train made Australia look like a nation of Trunbulls as the World calls us.

We need to go Nuclear.
Get a bit of respect in the neighbourhood.
Kim Jr does not try to get selfies.
He also never lost a Poll, ever.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7620
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
PornoPete
Posts: 2472
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

There could be a youtube channel in the "guardian reacts"

calling an election is a coup.
notgreazy
Posts: 688
Location: Other International


It's probably a good idea to read the stats on 457 visa before posting racist s*** about Indians:

https://www.border.gov.au/about/reports-publications/research-statistics/statistics/work-in-australia

1 Managers 2,107 16.4%
2 Professionals 7,365 57.2%
3 Technicians and Trades Workers 2,824 21.9%


Vash
Posts: 5257
Location:

There could be a youtube channel in the "guardian reacts"

calling an election is a coup.


Calling it a coup is a stretch, but it is a pretty ugly move. Good article regardless of calling it that.
Smart power play for Theresa & her party.

Surprised Turnbull didn't do the same back when he was polling excellent.
PornoPete
Posts: 2473
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It's an hysterical article.

the author claims May has trashed her brand, and she is likely to win in landslide.

That is flat out incoherent. I get why you like it now.
Vash
Posts: 5258
Location:

Turnbull & Abbott were polling great, look how they ended up.
Im sure Theresa know's her great polling is very temporary, and is using that political capital now. People catch on to conservative policy pretty quickly, though they never learn from history.

There's plenty of examples of people trashing their brands & also winning. Usually when the opposition is undesirable. Glorious democracy, the sewer or the dump.
PornoPete
Posts: 2474
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Abbott was never polling well you dolt.

And Turnbull trashed his brand and nearly got himself a hung parliament.

Trashing your brand is by definition the opposite of a good polling result.


There's plenty of examples of people trashing their brands & also winning.


Name 5.

*edit* People catch on to conservative policy pretty quickly, though they never learn from history. */edit*.

Just one post vash. Just one where you don't present a bald faced contradiction. The people know, but they never learn. f*** me.
Vash
Posts: 5259
Location:

Hows that a contradiction? Oh dear PP, why does everything have to be explained for you?
So, when Theresa releases her budget or policy changes, people will catch on and go, thats s***. Polls quickly dive. Just like with Abbott & Turnbull.
Then, years later people forget, and they get elected again. Hence the not learning from history part.
Raven
Posts: 9420
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
There's plenty of examples of people trashing their brands & also winning.

Name 5.

Well, there's Pepsi...
Vash
Posts: 5260
Location:

FaceMan
Posts: 12712
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I thought all of Britain was so angry about Brexit that they demanded a new vote.
How come the person who is making Brexit happen is so far ahead in the Polls ?

That Corbyn guy is a crazy person, hes worse than Turnbull.
May called an Election a few hours after this interview

PornoPete
Posts: 2475
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Nevermind Vash.

People are hard to trick but also never learn from history is a straightforward contradiction.

Surely you could trick people by waiting a certain amount of time, but you can't because people are hard to trick (almost like they've learnt from history or something).

But moreover, the context of this debate is with something that has literally never happened before. Britain has left the EU zero times you knuckle dragging moron

Just because you can't learn from history vis socialism doesn't mean the general population share your learning disability.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38886
Location: USA

How come the person who is making Brexit happen is so far ahead in the Polls ?
May was mostly anti-Brexit fwiw. I think she's ahead in the polls because she seems to be doing a pretty decent job given the stupid circumstances and because (as you point out) her main competition is widely considered clownshoes.

If Labor put up a hardcore anti-brexit shouty man candidate that promised to undo Brexit I think they might have a chance. But May seems to have been cunning and called this on super short notice so everyone thinks Labor is just going to flail around uselessly in the meantime and basically have no chance. Read a Guardian article last night basically saying they're confused about why Labor seem likely to vote to approve this early election when it seems they have literally no chance at all, but maybe they know that and are keen to just make sure Brexit is 100% a Conservative s***show.

Either way this early election has blown everyone's minds!
PornoPete
Posts: 2476
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Brexit is a bit of a fraught issue for Labour.

My understanding is that it polls pretty well in the work class demographics, so it makes it difficult for Labour to go really hard. Corbyn is a brexiteer, he has been literally up until the referendum. He is incredibly difficult to take seriously on it.

But he also seems to be difficult to get rid of as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if them accepting an electoral wipeout is evidence they want to f*** corbyn off and this would give them a compelling reason to do so.

I read somewhere that polling for brexit has been improving since the referendum, so I think going super anti-brexit might be a dead end for Labour particularly.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2043
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I can't believe the reds have infiltrated the daily mail.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9ujcLEXcAE8q-8.jpghttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9ux_WqXYAA7IAz.jpg
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7621
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
She looks like a vampire


.. i'd still hit it
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2044
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Great article for anyone under the illusion that the LNP would have done better if Tone was at the helm last election.

http://www.afr.com/news/secret-polling-how-malcolm-turnbull-helped-save-tony-abbott-20170418-gvnfh9


Vash
Posts: 5262
Location:

Leftie rag! Tony Abbott is a good catholic man!
Good honest politician!

/pensioner that listens to 2GB
FaceMan
Posts: 12717
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
How could it have been worse Sir Redhat ?
Trunbull managed to win by one seat.
Turned the Senate into a Creche for Kooks
but he saved Abbott ?

The best thing that could have happened to the Liberal Party was to lose the last Election.

Ive been hanging out in some Facebook Groups with Liberal Party supporters and 90% of the posts are pleas to get rid of Turnbull. They dont talk about Shorten or the greens, its just wall to wall despair over Turnbull. I have never seen a post that supported Turnbull, how can you have a Leader that nobody likes ?

The Train Selfie with the Indian PM was the most degrading thing Ive seen since The Witch acted like a schoolgirl with Obama. He acts like being PM is a part time job he does that has good perks, like riding on Trains, what is it with Turnbull and Trains ?

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg35/ggb777/17991052_1460550243964135_7727438066918636848_n_zpse09gq2iu.png



Sir Redhat
Posts: 2045
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Well since you think the best thing would have been the LNP losing the last election then yes, I guess it couldn't have been any worse.

Mal was installed to save the furniture.

They dont talk about Shorten or the greens, its just wall to wall despair over Turnbull. I have never seen a post that supported Turnbull, how can you have a Leader that nobody likes ?


ROFL matey, do you think anyone in the public likes shorten? Labor members overwhelmingly voted for Albo last leadership challenge, but the faceless men have backed shorten for some f***ed up reason.
Vash
Posts: 5269
Location:

http://i.imgur.com/sPprlg8.jpg

dayum
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38891
Location: USA

When bombing is done for boring reasons like shorting stocks. How crazy is this?!
PornoPete
Posts: 2477
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Sure makes a break from the totally indecipherable reasons the Paris shooting happened.
FaceMan
Posts: 12720
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg35/ggb777/hanson turnbull_zpszaykiugk.jpg
Tollaz0r!
Posts: 18371
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-dangerous-mental-illness-yale-psychiatrist-conference-us-president-unfit-james-gartner-a7694316.html


See you buttmunchers. I'm not being retarded when I say Donald Trump is a f***ing nutjob and seriously should not be in command of the powers that he is.
PornoPete
Posts: 2478
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It's curious they accuse trump of grandiose ideas of himself, but then go on to say that the stakes are too high for the Goldwater rule to apply to them, they are "compelled" to share their, by definition, arm chair analysis.

So you never did go into the content and reasoning for this "Goldwater" rule Toll. Tell us more.
Tollaz0r!
Posts: 18372
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Why deflect like that PornoPete. I'm sure those highly experienced professionals have a good understanding of the goldwater rule, much more than you and I at the least, and yet they chose to continue with their analysis. Perhaps that tells you something of the gravity of the situation.

It's amusing you use the word armchair as well, a poor attempt to discredit these people as you understand the negative connotations of that word well enough. I guess it was an ill attempt to try say you know better than these professionals?
PornoPete
Posts: 2479
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It's amusing you use the word armchair as well

They make it clear they haven't personally examined him, so it is armchair analysis toll.

Perhaps that tells you something of the gravity of the situation.

Yeah or how much they like the sound of their own voices.

When you produce a clinical diagnoses and not a petition you'll have a point and not before.
fpot
Posts: 25806
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
Yeah but it really explains a lot of the bizarre happenings that have occurred. For example, one out of dozens that defy belief -

Spicer's press conference after the inauguration. What rational explanation is there for that? He is on a podium quite literally denying reality. Why would someone do that? Is it because the NPD armchair diagnosis is actually a thing and Trump is lying to soothe a bruised ego, or is it part of some master plan where he sets up his support base to believe any lie no matter how obvious they are? Or is it something else?

When someone is constantly displaying bizarre unexplainable behaviour what else is there to do but speculate and then go with whatever seems to fit. The deeply disturbed narcissistic compulsive liar speculation fits pretty well to me. A clinical diagnosis would be nice and I'd pay good money for it to happen, but it never will.
PornoPete
Posts: 2480
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I don't know and I don't care to find out.

The media obsessing over attendance was an embarrassment to begin with. Difficult to credibly accuse trump of being petty while you're out there saying "Obama had more" as though there is anything in slightest riding on it.

So of course it's weird for spicer to be attacking over it, but it was a bunch of f***ing weirdos who decided to make an issue of it in the first place.

but moreover, you can claim Hillary was psychopathically obsessed with power if you want to. She has repeatedly taken money from people who she has no business taking money from, and there is virtually no position of import for the left wing she hasn't changed her mind on.

If you consider that obvious red meat for tea party types (which it is), probably worth backing up and thinking if you are being fed red meat too.

The rule exists for a reason, and its not like the American Psychiatric Association (who created and enforce the rule) are not experts at the top of their field. They have issued a statement in their official journal not to do exactly the s*** toll keeps linking to, specifically in relation to trump.

Here is what the president of the APA has to say.
The unique atmosphere of this year’s election cycle may lead some to want to psychoanalyze the candidates, but to do so would not only be unethical, it would be irresponsible.
I guess it was an ill attempt to try say you know better than these professionals?


I guess toll thinks he knows better then Dr Oquendo the president of the APA. I mean what kind of total idiot does her CV make her look like? How many life times would you need to catch up?
FaceMan
Posts: 12721
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Psychiatry ?
Lets judge Psychiatry based on its history.

Trump is not surrounded by Trumps He gets his advice from highly qualified people. Its fine to have a giggle about some of Trumps statements but that is just Trump, those around the table explain the scenarios/options and Trump ultimately decides. Thats how the decisions are made, they arent made on Twitter.
There are some claims that Trump has off-loaded the Military decisions to his Generals in the administration. Would that help you sleep better Toll ?

Good Luck to Marine Le Pen
France has two Socialists a Communist and a Far Right candidate.
Labor, Labor-Lite, the greens and Hanson.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7625
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
interesting...

Fade2Black
Posts: 5324
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Massively not a fan of Trump. But I read the article and all I could think was there was an underlying agenda behind the comments and diagnosis. From the article it sounds like this group has been anti trump for a very long time. Was hard to read the article without feeling like there was a bias in the accusations.
fpot
Posts: 25807
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

From the article it sounds like this group has been anti trump for a very long time
If you weren't anti-trump from the absolute beginning then you're pretty dumb.
PornoPete
Posts: 2481
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

If you weren't anti-trump from the absolute beginning then you're pretty dumb.


Might be a justification against lending psychiatry's name to a political dispute in that sentence somewhere.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2048
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Good Luck to Marine Le Pen
France has two Socialists a Communist and a Far Right candidate.
Labor, Labor-Lite, the greens and Hanson.


It should be interesting. Looks like Le Pen and Macron will go through for the 2nd round.

Such a weird system. What a pain to have to go to the polls twice. I guess you could get x2 democracy sausages though or whatever the french equiv is.
FaceMan
Posts: 12722
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
She did well, There are two choices for France - stick with the stinking mess that is The EU or Leave and pull France to the Right.

Meanwhile at The UN...
The United Nations' Economic and Social Council has voted, by secret ballot, to place the kingdom of Saudi Arabia on the Commission on the Status of Women. The commission aims at "empowering" women and ensuring their equality. The commission's newest member, Saudi Arabia, bans women from opening a bank account without their husband's permission.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/228461

"secret ballot"
I wonder how many Democratic Western Countries voted for that ?
Where are the Feminists ?

Vash
Posts: 5270
Location:


Why are leftists so violent? A compilation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/675rlh/why_are_leftists_so_violent/


FaceMan
Posts: 12723
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Criminals committing violence drives Left Wing Thugs to beat people up who are exercising their Freedom of Speech ?
Maybe condemning all forms of violence would be a logical response ?

I see Bernie Sanders has had a bit to say about the Snowflakes at Berkley who are terrified of Anne Coulter speaking words.

Sanders made clear he is firmly in the latter camp. “To me, it’s a sign of intellectual weakness,” he said. “If you can’t ask Ann Coulter in a polite way questions which expose the weakness of her arguments, if all you can do is boo, or shut her down, or prevent her from coming, what does that tell the world?” “What are you afraid of ― her ideas?

Ask her the hard questions,” he concluded. “Confront her intellectually. Booing people down, or intimidating people, or shutting down events, I don’t think that that works in any way.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/entry/bernie-sanders-ann-coulter-berkeley_us_58fb7006e4b00fa7de14bc3d


trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38896
Location: USA

She did well, There are two choices for France - stick with the stinking mess that is The EU or Leave and pull France to the Right.
what's with all you people that just want to tear the world apart into tiny independent chunks where everyone lives in their own area with their own people. you know that's what it used to be like before we developed modern civilisation right? loosely independent city states that formed into larger areas operating in a coordinated manner? it's literally why humanity has been able to do all the interesting things it has done

genuine question btw. I have to assume this is part of some over-arching philosophy to actually regress the planet back into city states and I'd be really fascinated to hear what it is. I hope it's not just as boring as you're just terrified witless of Muslims. The Brexiteers in the UK seem to be slowly realising that it's a logical extrapolation of leaving the EU and are very slowly starting to get terrified that London is going to carve itself off from the rest of the country, which of course would be a trainwreck for England.
FaceMan
Posts: 12724
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
if The EU is so wonderful why isnt The EU a Democracy ?
Its a tough one to get past.
Like that other undemocratic Beast - The UN.

From Immigration to Energy to Fiscal Policy to Human Rights to even Fishing Rights the member States rarely have a win against The Beast and now that the British people have voted to leave The EU is making threats.
And The EU wants to create its own Military ? uh no thx

Im a bit puzzled as to what you see that is so wonderful ?
Its easier to Travel ?
easier to enact "Progressivism" that eats away at Cultural Identity ?

Sadly Le Pen wont win in France but she has energized much of Western Europe.

trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38899
Location: USA

if The EU is so wonderful why isnt The EU a Democracy ? Its a tough one to get past.
Is it? It seems like it's just a vague comment that sounds insightful on the surface because of the staggering complexity of any possible answer.

I'm sure it could be improved but you can say that about literally any democracy; trying to make sure citizens feel empowered I think is going to be the big ticket item of the next century (at least in normal reasonably representative democracies that don't have broken two party systems).
easier to enact "Progressivism" that eats away at Cultural Identity ?
I often wonder what people who keep talking about "Cultural Identity" think the world was like 30, 50, 100 years ago.
Im a bit puzzled as to what you see that is so wonderful ?
If we're just dropping Twitter-sized chunks of text that make good soundbites (as per usual) instead of having a real conversation I guess I'd say just the usual boring thing like a billion people from different places working together to create a better & more unified world.

More specifically? The single market seems to be really good for businesses, although I think it could still be improved (at least speaking from POV of someone operating a business in UK and working with EU countries; some tax s*** is really confusing like VAT in certain cases - but I feel that way about tax systems in general). I kind of like the way the EU gets together to force douchey companies (particularly US ones) to operate in a non-douchey manner because I think generally it has a very strong consumer focus (as opposed to the US companies where consumer rights are a bit of a joke).

I think the economic impact & benefits of the EU operating the way it does is simply not visible to the bulk of people who live in it.

"Easier to travel" is kind of a snide way of summarising freedom of movement and employment for anyone in the EU. I think this is as close to a libertarian fantasy as anyone could possibly want. From what I can tell in London it is a key factor in why the city is such an economic powerhouse - because any company has the ability to employ the best people and it's not restricted to a handful of large corporates (like for example in the US).

I live in London & spend a lot of time in Paris for work so I mostly hang out with city-types who are all pretty strong on the EU. I don't personally know anyone that voted Brexit or is voting Le Pen (or at least, noone who is game to say). So when I see idle commentary about the EU from people outside it I have to wonder where they get their opinions from. Especially when they seem to be pro-USA, which is basically like Europe but with one language and a federal government that seems much worse than anything Brussels has.

I've only been here for a year so I'm not trying to pretend I'm some hots*** EU expert. But human civilisation is about working together & I think the EU is a noble goal. (And the UN.) Just because it's not perfect doesn't mean it's broken.
Viper119
Posts: 3251
Location: Other International

Hmm, seems what Turnbull is doing is not dissimilar to what Cameron did to try to prevent losing voters to UKIP in the UK.

Great video sLaps_Forehead, found that very interesting, ta.

Yeah I've been wondering that too trog. Why are peeps so keen to tear it all down? All that progress has likely contributed greatly to you being able to comfortably spout this rhetoric on online forums FaceMan. Not to mention that kind of global integration is the only hope for the future of humanity in the really long term. Why are we worrying ourselves about what people look like when we could be Star Treking it up out in the universe?

Think you're grossly underselling the benefits of the EU there too.



I'm surprised at the hate for Macron, it seems to me that young, energetic and idealistic centrist leaders is exactly what we need to start bridging the gap between the extreme right and left that's sprung up of late. Although I can see how the anti-establishment crowd don't like that and would prefer a radical change.

Thought this article had a great run down on the recent Europe shiz: The French elections showed the strength of the European far-right — and its limit

What we’re seeing in France mirrors what’s happening in much of Europe. After the twin shocks of Brexit and Trump, the far-right has seen a series of setbacks. From elections in Austria and the Netherlands to polls in all-important Germany, the far-right is performing far less well than many have expected.

What far-right parties are doing, then, is attempting to invent a largely new form of politics: One that calls for a radical reorientation of European society away from tolerance and continent-wide integration, and something closer to the kind of nationalist set-up we saw in Europe prior to 1939.

There’s a reason that we haven’t seen such a politics succeed since then, of course: World War II. The horror of the war and the Holocaust created a continent-wide aversion to nationalism and an aversion to anything that smelled like Nazi-style racism. The current far-right parties are running at this consensus with a battering ram.
baz
Posts: 1278
Location: Victoria

Sorry to interupt but Ive been camping for the last 10 days and have no idea whats happening in the news, but the missus is all worried about some Korean nuclear threat.

I was hoping someone here could summarise the issue cos im too lazy to read pages.
fpot
Posts: 25808
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Pretty much the same bulls*** that's been coming out of NK for years except now there's a mentally challenged person in charge of the USA so something bad might actually happen.
Vash
Posts: 5272
Location:

It would be profoundly stupid to initiate anything with NK. They are building nuclear weapons for the same reason any other state does. Defense of their borders.
Don't be fooled into thinking they are the aggressor.
Words mean nothing until they're put into action. NK's threatening language are to ensure people they will use those nukes if they are invaded.
Who is really the aggressor here when the USA has as many bases worldwide as it does, and an increasingly ridiculous military budget?
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7626
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Oh Vash vash vash .... *shakes head*
Vash
Posts: 5273
Location:

North Korea hasn't invaded anyone since the 50s.

How's the USA's track record? Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. Then you have the countless bases worldwide, CIA interventions in elections & foreign Governments (Even in Australia)
Who is really the aggressor?
baz
Posts: 1279
Location: Victoria

Is it one of those fake news events that occurs to saturate the airwaves and distract us whilst something else is going on. Is there a controversial law being passed in the background or something.
PornoPete
Posts: 2482
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Pretty much the same bulls*** that's been coming out of NK for years except now there's a mentally challenged person in charge of the USA so something bad might actually happen.


But strangely the nuclear apocalypse hasn't happened.

North Korea hasn't invaded anyone since the 50s.

How's the USA's track record? Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. Then you have the countless bases worldwide, CIA interventions in elections & foreign Governments (Even in Australia)
Who is really the aggressor?


North Korea.

If we're just dropping Twitter-sized chunks of text that make good soundbites (as per usual) instead of having a real conversation I guess I'd say just the usual boring thing like a billion people from different places working together to create a better & more unified world.


Pretty hard to take that seriously when you hear the rhetoric from Grexit to Brexit. And the argument which is always put forward is sovereignty.

So for example your discussion about tax. If you really started f***ing with governments abilities to set tax rates you'd see how unified Europe is. The EU is predicated on Sovereign countries retaining a sense of identity. A useful shorthand for this could be called cultural identity.

I often wonder what people who keep talking about "Cultural Identity" think the world was like 30, 50, 100 years ago.


I wonder what you mean by this. particularly if you pick the 30 to 50 years ago bracket I don't think it is implausible to say that in Europe at least, the general mood was more internationalist than it is now.

So if anything the recent history of the EU has seen a distinct retreat into respective ethnicity. For example in my lifetime I'd say the 90's was the high ridin time for the EU, saw the creation of the Euro, the full implementation of the Schengen zone, the adoption of the term "European Union", and the proper creation of the single market. but it also oversaw the bloodiest ethnic conflict since before WW1 (ironically enough in the breakdown of a country that had been trying to forge a new cultural identity in "Yugoslavia" for more than 70 years). it also oversaw the creation of at least 10 new sovereign states. do we chalk that decade up to a win for internationalism or cultural identity?

And when you talk about a star trek type brotherhood of man future, what do you mean? I lived with a polish truck driver and I can tell you now he wasn't working "create a better & more unified world". He was working to get f***ed up at the weekend, and you could do that more efficiently in London than rural Poland. We had some great times so in a sense we were unified, but he was fiercely Polish. Germans made crap sausage and Russians made crap vodka (he had a point about the vodka).

So I'll sum up by saying I don't think you can make a precise articulation of the European Union project except in vague unification and overall economic progress terms, both of which the evidence is mixed for.
FaceMan
Posts: 12725
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I agree with Vash !

North Korea was bombed back to the stone age in the '50s and are determined to never let that happen again. They have a Right to test their Missiles and Nukes.

What about India ? Pakistan ? an Islamic country with Nukes.
and of course Israel who regularly attacks Syria and threatens Lebanon.
None of those countries will ever give up their Nukes.
Why should NK ?

It would be a bad idea for NK to do a Nuke Test today but this problem is not going to go away.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7627
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Vash and Faceman, go get a room you two!
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38900
Location: USA

What about India ? Pakistan ? an Islamic country with Nukes.
jesus christ don't say that too loudly!! people are already scared of muslims with cars, imagine how they'll react if they discover Pakistan isn't just another dirty third world country with a decent cricket team but an actual nuclear power with genuine extremists as part of their actual government, like that train minister guy who offered a bounty to assassinate the moron who made that stupid Innocence of Muslims movie. We'd never hear the end of it!
FaceMan
Posts: 12726
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Trog its assumed that Saudi Arabia financed Pakistans Nuclear Program in exchange for Nuclear Weapons if they ever needed them.
The Mother of ISIS has a means of acquiring Nuclear Weapons.

Rem that "Islam is the most Feminist Religion" nutter from The ABC ?

ABC presenter Yassmin Abdel-Magied has been savaged on social media after suggesting Australians should spare a thought for those on Manus Island and in Syria instead of the Anzacs.

The host of the ABC 24's Australia Wide program fell afoul of Facebook users today when she posted "Lest We Forget (Manus.Nauru. Syria. Palestine)". She was forced to delete the post after receiving a barrage of comments from irate social users. Read more at

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/04/25/16/58/abc-presenter-savaged-for-disrespecting-anzacs#v0yZURm5pEj2p4wd.99

Australian Values ?
Viper119
Posts: 3252
Location: Other International

What is sovereignty really? It's a made up thing, just like the concept of nation states. I thought trog's analogy to the US was interesting, as you could kind of see it going that kind of way in the EU, especially if they start setting tax policy per country or similar which they probably need to do to fix the Euro. I suppose the question is whether you can maintain cultural identity without such overt boundaries? I would imagine you can, Scotland might be an example of that.

Too true Pete, but we could be getting f***ed up together on a distant planet, chasing Arcturian poontang or sampling alien vodka instead of just kicking it in London innit. And ideally without all the bloodshed & hatred, although no doubt we'd be fighting some alien wars I suppose. What are your thoughts on the EU?

In other news the EU is helping the average joe by getting rid of those extortionate mobile roaming charges!
PornoPete
Posts: 2483
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I'll answer more fully later viper,

But I like the EU, but I will say this. The fact that it is a treaty of nation states means that the universalist message that gets bandied about in relation to it is wrong headed. It has written into its DNA respect for the final sovereignty of nations.
baz
Posts: 1281
Location: Victoria

Half of cultural identity has a deep historical story but the other half is the land itself fashions the community.

Some crude examples would be...

Woks were invented to minimize cooking time due to lack of fuel.
Fondue was invented due to lack of anything that wasn't cheese.
Australia has s***loads of everything.

I feel fortunate to be an Australian, but I dont feel proud to be an Australian.
I can't lay much claim to have contributed, not like the ANZACS, so I dont feel Aussie pride so to speak, its not an achievement, being Australian, its just a coincidence.

I feel fortunate and and privileged.
Vash
Posts: 5274
Location:

Fair post Baz, That's why people should be more empathetic to people in war torn poorer regions. They're no different to you or I.
The material conditions of the land, culture & people who surround you determine who you become.

Success is only minimally self driven. Many things can happen to a person to disrupt the process of getting there.
FaceMan
Posts: 12727
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Baz
I feel fortunate and and privileged.


I find you Guilty of living in a Liberal Democracy.
You have one one responsibility
You either love it and defend it or some piece of s*** Ideology will come and take it away.

I find your entire post offensive especially on ANZAC Day.

Vash
Posts: 5275
Location:

or some piece of s*** Ideology will come and take it away.


Like yours? ;)
It's unfortunate some people don't see that our high standards of living are thanks to unions & socialist movements.
Without them, you'd probably find yourself working 7 days a week just to rake in a livable wage.
HurricaneJim
Posts: 2359
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


No evidence cutting taxes boosts growth: Krugman

The Business Council of Australia argues a lower company tax rate will "give businesses a better chance to transition to a competitive global economy and incentives to invest, innovate and create jobs".

Nobel prize winning economist, Paul Krugman, begs to differ.

Mr Krugman has spoken out ahead of US President Donald Trump's plans to unveil big tax cuts for big business and wealthy individuals in the United States.

"History offers not a shred of support for faith in the pro-growth effects of tax cuts," Mr Krugman said.

To support his thesis Paul Krugman points to the performance of the United States economy under Presidents Clinton and Obama on one hand, and Presidents Reagan and Bush (junior) on the other.

Republicans Reagan and Bush cut taxes. Democrats Clinton and Obama raised taxes.

According to Paul Krugman the economy performed better under Clinton and Obama, with the much-touted benefits of tax cuts not appearing for Reagan and Bush.

Krugman quotes George Bush senior (Republican President from 1989-1993) as saying that, "the claim that cutting taxes on rich people will conjure up an economic miracle, so much so that revenues will actually rise ” is 'voodoo economic policy'". The BCA budget submission has many good things to say.

Unfortunately, when it comes to the heavy lifting of balancing the budget, the BCA wants others to do it.


I hate it when a Nobel Laureate proves me right.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-26/big-business-big-iidea-for-the-budget/8473224
PornoPete
Posts: 2484
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Is this the same Paul Krugman that said that the stock market would *never* recover from a trump election and the stock market went on to hit about 40 record highs?
fpot
Posts: 25809
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

When a person is wrong once (or twice, or thrice) it means they are wrong about everything forever.
PornoPete
Posts: 2485
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

No but this:

I hate it when a Nobel Laureate proves me right.


may be premature.
Vash
Posts: 5276
Location:

There's a bit of a difference with being wrong about a prediction, and making claims on existing evidence.
Many economists have said the same thing looking at available economic data.
PornoPete
Posts: 2486
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Many economists have said the same thing looking at available economic data.


Name twenty, you can split the difference with islamists who think gay marriage is a thing.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38902
Location: USA

Someone posted this on my FB; I hesitate to share it further but it's such a great example of a fake news narrative twisting meme. It's close enough to what actually happened without actually really being in any way what actually happened. But it reinforces the stereotypes people want to believe anyway.

f***ing work of art. You can see it brought out all the trainwrecks of humanity to comment on it, exactly as intended.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7628
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Alan Lewis: I'm a Vietnam Vet and was not insulted by her. Also the woman in the top picture was not sacked by the ABC.. This is just a big beat up and if Australians really cared about our diggers they would be up in arms about the well over 300 current veterans that have committed suicide since 2001, 8 have already topped themselves already this year.
PornoPete
Posts: 2488
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Well gee trog, I guess you've been reading too many faceman posts.

too much to ask why it's "fake news" and why people annoyed at what she posted are "train wrecks of humanity" i spose.

You know for someone who insists they are above it all you sure like to wallow in some s*** brother.

Causally note you didn't suggest the people demanding bill leak be taken before the human rights commission were "train wrecks of humanity".

Wouldn't want to score points or anything.

In what way is it a work of art.

These are all just words.

You do like that term "train wreck of humanity". What does it mean exactly?
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2049
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Did you read the comments on that post PP? Or just froth like so many in that piece? You only had to see like the first few.
HurricaneJim
Posts: 2360
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Is this the same Paul Krugman that said that the stock market would *never* recover from a trump election and the stock market went on to hit about 40 record highs?


Whilst that is true he did publish that opinion the facts are, in the US, that the wealthy would buy stocks because a "republican" president would lower taxes and therefore increase dividends to the stockholders. Gaining both the benefits of the tax reduction and the dividends.

The truth of the Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Obama administrations is still the truth, no matter what obfuscation you may wish.
fpot
Posts: 25810
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

"Hey guys is it okay to recognise the fact that some people are going through hell right now brought about by war on this day celebrating and remembering the heroes and victims of war?"

"Well it might be oka... WAIT A MINUTE SHE'S A f***ING MUSLIM AND SHE'S REMEMBERING BROWN PEOPLE EVEN WORSE BROWN REFUGEE PEOPLE"

"DEPORT THE VERMIN BITCH"

ie. trainwrecks of humanity.

All holidays with Australia somewhere in the title are being destroyed by jingoistic f***ing morons so f***ing stupid that while they're busy masturbating each other about who cares about teh fallen diggers the most they've forgotten why they died.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38905
Location: USA

sLaps, that is pretty good. There are a few people in there trying to fight the good fight; I 'liked' a few of them (& I went back & liked that one) but it kind of feels like a futile guesture.

This Anzac day wet t-shirt contest made the news here today but not sure if there was a social media party about it
Viper119
Posts: 3253
Location: Other International

Alan Lewis: I'm a Vietnam Vet and was not insulted by her. Also the woman in the top picture was not sacked by the ABC.. This is just a big beat up and if Australians really cared about our diggers they would be up in arms about the well over 300 current veterans that have committed suicide since 2001, 8 have already topped themselves already this year.


I'd be inclined to agree with this. A lot of peeps (mass generalisation) seem to only be that bothered about ANZAC for a good party.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7630
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I agree, but I also think she was a bit careless. I heard Gerard Minack make a good point that she shouldn't be sacked or publically derided but that ABC should sit her down and guide her on how she can use social media to express her opinions in a more tactful way.

PornoPete
Posts: 2489
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

The truth of the Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Obama administrations is still the truth, no matter what obfuscation you may wish.


Seems like a radically different claim to there is no evidence to support the claim that tax cuts can be good for an economy Hogfather. And if you are going to compare how the economies are ticking over I think you need a little more than just Krugmans word for it. the 80's was a pretty good time for the US, and overall statistics are going to be skewed by the black wednesday crash. Clinton didn't go through anything like that.

So when you say proved right, you might want to reframe as a Krugman agrees with you.


ie. trainwrecks of humanity.

All holidays with Australia somewhere in the title are being destroyed by jingoistic f***ing morons so f***ing stupid that while they're busy masturbating each other about who cares about teh fallen diggers the most they've forgotten why they died.


hrm interesting. so its spraying invective on facebook that makes them trainwrecks of humanity. so when Muslims march under banners that translate as "death to those who insult the prophet" are they trainwrecks of humanity? because i've seen trog use the term to describe that zero times.

When far left people turn up throwing bottles at people in crowds at Berkley suddenly no-platforming is all about free speech. Again zero use of trainwrecks of humanity to describe that.

*edit* or the socialist supporters who set fire to random cars in Paris because a candidate they don't like performed better than they'd have liked. That happened a couple of days ago. Are they trainwrecks of humanity? or is there something understandable about the resort to violence in an upsetting election result?

Even if all three retroactively get labeled that, Trog didn't see fit to label it that at the time.
*/edit*

So I'm not convinced spraying invective really is the link here.

This Anzac day wet t-shirt contest made the news here today but not sure if there was a social media party about it


and Mr false equivalence raises his head. so you're confused why a pub canceling a wet t-shirt competition (because its disrespectful) and a woman literally paid by the national broadcaster to promote tolerance disrespecting the most significant Australian day of remembrance didn't generate equivalent responses? Really? Notice you left out the cancelled bit for the pub. Shall we talk about fake news now trog?
FaceMan
Posts: 12728
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
You could not do worse than try to use ANZAC Day to promote a Political view... apart from defending Child Marriage which that "Feminist Icon" grubby Greer did the other night on Q&A.

GERMAINE GREER The thing you’re assuming is that in child marriage, there will be sexual intercourse. Now, if you actually look at the background to the way in which families marry, say, in village India, it’s not expected that the little girl will be subject to sexual intercourse. That will be controlled by her mother-in-law, probably, and access to the child will only be allowed when she’s considered to be old enough to be able to deal with it.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/how-dare-germaine-greer-play-down-child-marriage/news-story/a68d8c246059d68e4614b1daf8b7fef5

Because no Country treats Women better than India.

Vash
Posts: 5277
Location:


What fpot said.

Also, as mentioned before, look at post WW2. Tax rates @ 90% anyone? Should have caused the economy to become constipated if you listen to any neo liberal.
But no.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-johnson/so-do-tax-cuts-create-job_b_1943500.html



http://i.imgur.com/0NdJc6P.jpg


paveway
Posts: 21239
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Trump itching for a war with NK 😂😂

Moving a missile defense system into south korea.

Something is up when china are the voice is reason
PornoPete
Posts: 2490
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah so the top marginal rate is 90% and GDP growth goes from 8% to -1% in three years and the economy didn't s*** itself in your eyes?

and I suppose lower GDP growth being strongly associated with highly developed economies plays no role in that graph whatsoever.

You really do have no idea what you're talking about do you Vash.
Viper119
Posts: 3254
Location: Other International

I don't get why the US moving missile defence systems into South Korea is seen as such an aggressive move by people, although I understand it from a geopolitical balancing perspective and that given the timing it heightens tensions. The US wouldn't do it if they didn't think the North might actually launch something, or if they're preparing to attack and they want to be able limit damage to the South.

However, North Korea is a rogue state that has been consistently threatening to attack South Korea, Japan and the US whilst also consistently trying to develop the conventional and nuclear missile capabilities to do so. The time window on preventing them from getting nuclear capability is rapidly closing, 2 years left or similar I think. What do you do with that?

A) Wait for them to attack you and be f***ed.
B) Attack them first, kinda considered a dick move, and they would be able to wipe out most of Seoul in the exchange, so a net loss of sorts.
C) Install missile defence systems so that if they do attack you can shoot down the missiles and save everyone.

China obviously doesn't want missile defence systems anywhere near them as it will prevent their ability to be the dominant power in the region, e.g. f*** with other Asian countries without anyone being able to do anything about it. If you think China is going to be a benevolent super power in how it treats it's neighbours, then I think history would prove you wrong, although we can always hope.

Moreover, China only supports the North to A) prevent there being American forces on their border and thus some geopolitical containment strategy in effect and B) because if the country collapses they'll have to deal with the millions of medieval refugees that surge north.

I thought this was an interesting take on it. The North Korea nuclear crisis is going to explode – just not yet
PornoPete
Posts: 2491
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

How true is B?

My understanding is that they could wipe Seoul off the face of the earth, but I don't think they'd be able to project force very far south. However, obviously it's the least attractive option.

Thanks for the article.
Vash
Posts: 5278
Location:

PP it seems you struggle to read charts. I was going to post some more but seems i'd be wasting my time.

with NK, why would they attack? It gains them nothing.
Nuclear is a deterrent for them.
PornoPete
Posts: 2492
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So you see the part from 1951 to 1954 Vash.

The most volatile period in that chart is strongly associated with a top marginal rate of 90%.

I think it is you who struggles with charts.
Vash
Posts: 5279
Location:

See the part from 1951 to 2008?
Data in the long term is far more useful than short term. Growth is dropping along with the tax rates.
Tax burden is being transferred from corporations to the individual.
That just hurts growth, less purchasing power for the individual = less economic activity.
PornoPete
Posts: 2493
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah and there is the simplistic explanation we were all waiting for.

so in 50 years of economic data, the top marginal tax rate is the thing that determines growth.

That is among the stupidest things you have said on this forum.

Why don't you go and take a look at tax rates in Singapore and mark that against GPD.

And then take a look at France.

The graph gives no indication exactly how much tax was collected, when it was 90% I'd bet money it wasn't much.

The vast majority of revenue collected by income tax comes from the middle and lower tax brackets, because thats where the collection pool is widest. A 90% top marginal rate would do almost nothing except make minimization exceptionally aggressive.

But don't worry vash, you've linked to a graph.

Before posting again Vash keep in mind also you're talking about the wrong tax rate. Hogfather linked to a article about COMPANY tax rates. At least in Australia companies have always had a flat tax rate, and to my knowledge this is also the case in the States. You don't know what you're talking about.
fpot
Posts: 25813
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Once upon a time I'd post The Beatles Taxman song whenever I saw the 90% tax rate mentioned but it appears Youtube have cracked down on all of The Beatles songs :(
Vash
Posts: 5280
Location:

In the states, company tax rates, and receipts have dropped since the 50s.

http://i.imgur.com/APuLVCH.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/AOiSz3i.png

Might give a hint to the cause of the world's economic woes. The shareholders are doing alright i suppose.
Tollaz0r!
Posts: 18373
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
That last chart can simply be explained that productivity has increased along with the advent of personal computer systems that can often allow a person to do much more, with similar effort and time.

So perhaps people decided that the amount they are getting paid for the amount of work they are doing is fair. As they aren't necessarily doing more work, yet are still being more productive.

Tollaz0r!
Posts: 18374
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Tell us more about the reasons for this rule before going on toll please.


Oh hey, I forgot about how you just ignore stuff when it doesn't follow your narrative and then just attempt to deflect to something that does over and over and over until people just give up. Seems to be working for you so far.

Read up on why the Goldwater rule and how psychiatric interviews aren't the be all and end all of diagnosis, nahh. Instead just attack, deflect, rant and ramble. You're good at that.
PornoPete
Posts: 2494
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Jesus Vash, Now you link to two charts which don't show the company tax rate and you link it to a drop in personal income tax rates which coincides with an increase in the overall share of the tax burden paid for by income tax.

IE income tax rates dropped, but more tax share was collected by taxing personal income.

If you had a point it is utterly lost on me.

What do you propose my narrative in relation to trump is Toll?
baz
Posts: 1285
Location: Victoria

133 pages in the second thread.....

Its definitely time for an intermission break.








Viper119
Posts: 3255
Location: Other International


Ah you're right Pete, it's just Seoul and surrounds.

South Korea's capital city, Seoul, is a so-called megacity with a whopping 25.6 million residents living in the greater metropolitan area. It also happens to be within direct firing range of thousands of pieces of North Korean artillery already lined up along the border, also known as the demilitarized zone. Around 70 percent of North Korea's ground forces are within 90 miles of the DMZ, presumably ready to move south at a moment's notice.

Simulations of a large-scale artillery fight between the North and South produce pretty bleak results. One war game convened by the Atlantic back in 2005 predicted that a North Korean attack would kill 100,000 people in Seoul in the first few days alone. Others put the estimate even higher. A war game mentioned by the National Interest predicted Seoul could be hit by over half-a-million shells in under an hour. Those results don't bode well for one of Washington's closest allies, or for the tens of millions of people living in Seoul.

As if that were not enough, North Korea has a robust chemical weapons program. South Korea's Ministry of Defense estimates that its northern neighbor has between 2,500 and 5,000 metric tons of chemical weapons, including sarin and VX nerve agents.


It looks like all the military analysis on war with NK is basically a real fubar, with massive losses for South Korea and Japan, but a eventual win for the US and it's allies (presuming it doesn't escalate to include China and Russia which is then WW3 territory), and a fairly terrible aftermath.

http://www.vox.com/world/2017/4/19/15355494/north-korea-nuclear-threat-missiles-weapons
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38907
Location: USA

A lot of these analyses seem to assume South Korea is expected to sit there and wait to be saved by the USA. But they have a population twice that of North Korea and vastly better equipped armed forces and have lived in a hair trigger environment with madmen above them for decades. I suspect they follow the "speak softly but carry a big stick" school.

It's all a bit of a s***show. Can't we all just get along?
Viper119
Posts: 3256
Location: Other International


Ah, on the contrary I think those analyses assume full South Korean and Japanese engagement. However it seems a lot of the North Korean, and US forces stationed in North Korea, would be wiped out in the early exchanges due to the artillery / missile / chemical weapon setup the North has. And they expect some kind of ballistic missile attacks on Japan. So it'd be additional forces engaging after that, and in a right mess, as it seems they think the North would target the South's nuclear power plants, and even launch nukes.

https://southfront.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/2.png

North v South is a interesting comparison: https://southfront.org/north-korea-vs-south-korea-comparison-of-military-capabilities-what-would-new-war-in-korea-look-like/

You'd have to hope all their equipment being pretty old would be a big detractor in their combat ability.

I was totes wondering about what South Korea might have up their sleeves. I even imagined a hair brained scheme where they evacuate the whole of Seoul overnight or a few days or something. If the Ruskies could relocate their entire wartime industrial manufacturing from the eastern front to Siberia or thereabouts back in the 40's, surely something like that is poss now. Or maybe they have crazy tunnel networks or something. But if they did, wouldn't we of heard about it?


Viper119
Posts: 3257
Location: Other International

Here you go trog, we're not so different!

trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38910
Location: USA

I was totes wondering about what South Korea might have up their sleeves.
yeh, that's kind of what I mean. I think South Korea are a little more subtle & classy about displays of their military power. I don't think they've sat there for decades with ALL of them playing Starcraft though.

I wish I knew some Koreans who lived there so I could actually just f***ing ask them what's going on because if I've learned anything from living overseas for 3 years is that not being on the ground is a /totally/ different experience.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 38911
Location: USA

That video did not change my perception of North Korea :P
PornoPete
Posts: 2495
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I don't think they've sat there for decades with ALL of them playing Starcraft though.


Maybe that is their secret plan. A whole generation of generals with sick micro.
Vash
Posts: 5281
Location:



Always words of wisdom from this man.
"We can't go around threatening international force when we're so close to destroying ourselves"
Interventions need to stop. Far too much at stake nowadays.

North Korea's only interest is preventing American invasion.
Hogfather
Posts: 16721
Location: Cairns, Queensland

wtf Vash what motivation would the US have of invading NK in 2017.

That last chart can simply be explained that productivity has increased along with the advent of personal computer systems that can often allow a person to do much more, with similar effort and time.

Automation is scary.
PornoPete
Posts: 2496
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Say what you will, but Kim Jung Un has really cracked down on obesity.
PornoPete
Posts: 2497
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Jesus its impossible to take that clown seriously anymore. under a minute and he is factually wrong.

the 1994 framework solved the nuclear question and that wascally Gdubbya ruined it. Meanwhile in the real world

Joel S. Wit, State Department Coordinator for implementation of the Agreed Framework (1995-2000)[29] during the Clinton administration, stated that "we did know about the DPRK cheating on the highly-enriched uranium front starting in 1998."


So they probably never stopped.

How do you "not quite live up to" your obligation not to build nukes. You're either building them or you're not.

Vash
Posts: 5282
Location:

wtf Vash what motivation would the US have of invading NK in 2017.


The same motivation the U.S has for all it's military presence in the world. regional control & pumping the industrial military complex.
What was Bush's motivation for invading Iraq? Certainly not for WMDs.
PornoPete
Posts: 2498
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

system
--
Not a new post since your last visit.
New Post Since your last visit
Page: < 1 2 3 4 ... 6 7 8 9 >
Back To Forum
Advertise with Us | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
© Copyright 2001-2017 AusGamers Pty Ltd. ACN 093 772 242.
Hosted by Mammoth Networks - Australian VPS Hosting
Web development by Mammoth Media.