This is still in the rumour stage so I hate myself for posting it, but it's pretty crazy and getting picked up at the moment by major newswires.

After a lot of major anti-government protesting in Egypt, it looks like things have been escalated to the next level with new reports coming in of the government attempting to silence the spread of information by shutting down large chunks of Internet service provision.

From Reuters:

Web users in Egypt reported major disruptions to domestic networks on Friday, with many unable to access the Internet and mobile text messaging services in the capital Cairo.

A top official at the state telecoms regulator, contacted by Reuters early on Friday, declined to comment on the matter.

In Cairo, some residents said they had no access to the Internet altogether, while others said disruptions were limited to social networking websites such as Facebook. Others said they were unable to send mobile text messages.

Reuters have also mentioned that Facebook have reported a large drop in users from Egypt.

Apparently all this happened shortly after the AP published a video of a citizen protester getting shot by police.

It could, of course, just be mass network outages, but there are corroborating stories of entire networks losing access, like Blackberry Internet getting shut off as well.

Either way, Hosni Mubarak has been in office for almost 30 years (6 years more than Saddam).

I think it's time for the corrupt egyptian government to go.

Yeah they are concerned the people will rise up, and in particular that they will use social media to organise a retaliation.

Dictators are so 1970.

British Journalist allegedly beaten

Glad I'm not in Egypt at the moment.

You cut off facebook to some people I know and you've just guaranteed yourself a revolt.

can't believe you guys are only just hearing about this.

Egypt noon today there will be s*** going down.

Mubarak is gone.

Saudi Arabia must be worried, they will be next.
This is one of those events that can spiral out of control quickly.

Egypt is suspected of having one of The Worlds largest Chemical Weapons stockpiles.

suspected by actual governments or suspected by faceman ?

suspected by actual governments or suspected by faceman ?

If it was even suspected by actual Governments would you believe it? :P

All of Israels enemies have Chem/Bio weapons.
To counter Israels Nukes.

Egypt - has not signed the CWC (chemical weapons convention)
http://www.reachingcriticalwill.org/legal/cw/cwindex.html#rogues

Imagine an Islamist Iranian alligned Egypt on Israels Border.
I wonder what Israel are doing ?
You wouldnt think they would accept anything but a US Alligned government.

as oppose to a faceman post?

A communications disruption can mean only one thing - INVASION!

sounds like what happened in iran last year, and we all know how that ended.

A communications disruption can mean only one thing - INVASION!

Please don't. I had almost forgotten about that :(

Egypt is suspected of having one of The Worlds largest Chemical Weapons stockpiles.

Suspected? Let me guess - by you?

Please don't. I had almost forgotten about that :(

Oh ok, well how about:
Uh, we just had a slight communications malfunction, but uh, everything's perfectly alright now. We're fine, we're all fine here now thank you. How are you?

This after Algeria decided that it's poor should be fed:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110126/wl_nm/us_grains_algeria

And Arab despots the world over start to worry about their poor.

Unfortunately, the only large well organised opposition in Egypt is the Muslim Brotherhood.

This site has a pretty chart of the Egyptian Effect

Approximately 3,500 individual BGP routes were withdrawn, leaving no valid paths by which the rest of the world could continue to exchange Internet traffic with Egypt's service providers. Virtually all of Egypt's Internet addresses are now unreachable, worldwide.

...

One of the very few exceptions to this block has been Noor Group (AS20928), which still has 83 out of 83 live routes to its Egyptian customers, with inbound transit from Telecom Italia as usual. Why was Noor Group apparently unaffected by the countrywide takedown order? Unknown at this point, but we observe that the Egyptian Stock Exchange (www.egyptse.com) is still alive at a Noor address.

If it was even suspected by actual Governments would you believe it?

only if George Bush says it's true.

for someone who's lived without the Internet, and is now deeply addicted, it continues to amaze me the impact it has on the world today. Qld's recent floods were a good example, I lived here for the '74 floods and never really comprehended their impact. totally different perspective this time around.

This Egypt thing is another example of how powerful a tool the net is considered when a government's first actions are to try and control it. Amazing.

Maybe they all have their pyramids?

lol dirtyape, do you think these up on the s***ter?

dazhel that blue harvest? ...


awesome movie btw :P

internet and SMS are down

http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/facm3/urgent_egypt_has_shut_down_the_internet_completely/

democracy ftw.

heh heh dirtyape

Its gonna get really violent in Egypt real soon.

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/ (live stream in case the URL wasn't obvious enough for you)

democracy ftw.

What i find ironic is that there are sanctions imposed on Gaza for having democratically elected a government that is not in line with USA/Israel's policies. On the other hand $1.3 billion in military aid is given to Mubarak every year making Egypt the largest recipient of military aid after Israel. Meanwhile the people of Egypt remain oppressed under his dictatorship and most remain under the poverty line.

It's not democracy if it doesn't please the US of Asrael. So no that kind of double standard democracy is not FTW by any means.

Matchfixah - I took that to be an ironic FTW, though maybe im giving them too much credit. Egypt helps to enforce the embargo on gaza. They police the border and hunt down tunnels etc used for smuggling. Similarly 'important' positions on issues are probably what keeps the regime in power.

The aljazeera live stream is bloody brilliant: http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now

They have a camera in a building over looking the 6th october bridge (major bridge in Cairo) you can hear explosions, gun shots (could be rubber bullets or tear gas launchers - you could see both being fired by police on the same bridge earlier)

The protesters captured a troop transport truck and were trying to tip it over the side of the bridge, when that failed they decided to set it on fire. Lots of APC/light tank looking vehicles cruising around now too.

They also just showed the NDP (party in power) HQ building on fire... big ass fire - its a multi story building.

edit: Now there is LOTS of gun fire coming from down the street. Apparently the ministry of information building is down the street from the building they are holding up in. If the protesters had gone down towards it, that is probably where the gunfire is coming from. (because according to the reporter, its usually guarded by some kind of military force)

You cant see anything now because the smoke from fires (cars, police stations and NDP HQ are all on fire) - f***ing insanity...

Matchfixah - I took that to be an ironic FTW, though maybe im giving them too much credit. Egypt helps to enforce the embargo on gaza. They police the border and hunt down tunnels etc used for smuggling. Similarly 'important' positions on issues are probably what keeps the regime in power.

The aljazeera live stream is bloody brilliant: http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now

They have a camera in a building over looking the 6th october bridge (major bridge in Cairo) you can hear explosions, gun shots (could be rubber bullets or tear gas launchers - you could see both being fired by police on the same bridge earlier)

The protesters captured a troop transport truck and were trying to tip it over the side of the bridge, when that failed they decided to set it on fire. Lots of APC/light tank looking vehicles cruising around now too.

They also just showed the NDP (party in power) HQ building on fire... big ass fire - its a multi story building.

edit: Now there is LOTS of gun fire coming from down the street. Apparently the ministry of information building is down the street from the building they are holding up in. If the protesters had gone down towards it, that is probably where the gunfire is coming from. (because according to the reporter, its usually guarded by some kind of military force)

You cant see anything now because the smoke from fires (cars, police stations and NDP HQ are all on fire) - f***ing insanity...

Yep i've been watching all that unfold live. Disappointed that they couldn't tip the truck into the river. Also I think i've heard the word 'unprecedented' repeated like 50 times. But yeah awesome stream no doubt!

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2849/egyptriots.jpg

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/8572/er2h.jpg

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7742/er3gl.jpg

Check out at the last image comparing the two camera shots that were live at the time. Apparently they're only about 100 feet apart but obviously showing completely different stories.

That side by side shot of state run tv showing a calm city and the aljazeera footage with fire and gun shots is hilarious.

On Wednesday's bigpicture there were some photos of Egypt, amongst other rioting Arab/north African states.

interesting, wonder how it plays out

My guess is like Iran and NIcaragua in the 70's, . IE they kicked out the US backed Dictator and installed their own government. Will be interesting to see how Israel takes this.

It's time for the United States to choose: Does it really support the democratic aspirations of the Arab world, or, when push comes to shove, will it tacitly side with the same autocrats it has been propping up for decades?

For it's not just Egypt hanging in the balance Friday night. An entire generation of Arabs is watching this drama play out on the streets of Cairo. In his landmark speech there last year, President Obama warned the region's entrenched rulers, "You must maintain your power through consent, not coercion."

The Arab world has spoken: We do not consent.

It's past time for America, for once, to be on their side.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/01/28/hounshell.egypt.US/index.html?hpt=T1

Fixah prediction:

Mubarak will be overthrown, The Muslim Brotherhood will be democratically elected, US won't like it as they need an Ally who supports Israel and will impose an embargo on the Egyptian people for making the 'wrong choice', more terrorism will ensue.

Then you have some who wonder why people hate the USA.

the usa is slowly diggings its own hole to go and die in.

Rachel Aspden's article, The Rise of the Brotherhood states that The Muslim Brotherhood currently advocates suicide bombing attacks on civilians to fight Zionism, and its self-admitted Palestinian wing Hamas indiscriminately targets Jews as such, both civilians and the military, in Israel.[92] In its Charter, Hamas cites The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and prophesizes the ultimate complete annihilation of Jewry.[93]

Then you wonder why people hate the Muslim Brotherhood.

Swings in round abouts really. Nothing is ever black & white but I remain that the free democratic choice of the people is always the right choice.

Tear Gas canisters with the words Made In America on them.

General Petreus told the head honchos last year that Americas support for Governments in The Middle East that persecuted their own people was driving the hatred of America by Muslims.
America could end this right now by withdrawing support for Mubarak.

Egypt is one of the Countries where suspected terrorists were sent for Torture.

Egypt is one of the Countries where suspected terrorists were sent for Torture

Yeah because otherwise if they were tortured in the US it would be a violation of human rights. Under Mubarak's regime there are no human rights, and the US takes full advantage of this by making Mubarak carry out their dirty work.

Perhaps the USA enjoys the personal touch that you only get with hired goons.

Perhaps the USA enjoys the personal touch that you only get with hired goons.

I lolled

"The people of Egypt have rights that are universal. That includes the right to peaceful assembly and association" Obama said.

"The right to free speech and the ability to determine their own destiny. These are human rights."

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/us-president-obama-urges-egyptian-president-mubarak-to-deliver-on-reforms/story-e6frfku0-1225996569175#ixzz1COHcP5Hc

Human Rights ?
This is the Country that America uses to torture Muslims.
Hypocrite.

The right to free speech and the ability to determine their own destiny. These are human rights.

pretty sure USA is one of the only countries that have this "free speech" he speaks of

sc00bs:
http://medlibrary.org/medwiki/Free_speech

According to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights ("ICCPR" or "Covenant"), "[e]veryone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression."* Over 150 countries have ratified this agreement

(highlight mine)
*Article 19 for those keeping score.

Also from the same article:

More specifically, I suggest that one country's growing experience with the enforcement of political speech guarantees-Australia's-serves as a useful case study to support these propositions. Free speech lobbies in Australia have failed. Instead, the nation's highest court, in accordance with international law, has recently recognized an implied right to political communication in its constitution, which itself contains no explicit individual guarantees. In doing so, albeit somewhat unintentionally, the High Court of Australia ("High Court") single-handedly brought Australia within the realm of ICCPR Article 19 compliance.

Pretty sure you can't have democracy without free speech, or do you think that a right has to be explicitly written down on a document before people can claim it?

Must be tough trying to protest and find time to do your Prayer break.



http://i.imgur.com/Dh8ic.jpg

What you can't see is God's giant wang cut out of that picture taking a leak.

Faceman where did you grab that pic from?

shooped? Police were pretty accommodating in the al jazeera feed when it came time for prayer break last night

Don't think it's chopped. They look like they're soaking wet. Also I think the police/army will eventually run out of patience, especially if this keeps going on for days,

off someone on Whirlpools InTheNews Forum matchfixer.

its the 6th october bridge ?

last edited by FaceMan at 16:07:07 29/Jan/11

What i find ironic is that there are sanctions imposed on Gaza for having democratically elected a government that is not in line with USA/Israel's policies

Just because they're democratically elected doesn't make them immune to sanctions based on their other actions. If the governing party in New Zealand's charter called for Australia to be obliterated through jihad, we and our allies would have sanctions on them. What's your issue?

Did you even read the rest of my post or did you chose to quote one part and totally ignore the rest of it?

My issue, again, is that America are big advocates of democracy but only when it suits them. I mentioned Gaza and compared it to Egypt in terms of governance. One is being sanctioned for implementing democracy while the other is a dictatorship being funded merely to serve America's own interest. The hypocrisy is my issue. You don't see any injustice with that at all? or maybe you do but you just didn't bother reading the entire post.

One is being sanctioned for implementing democracy

........ you been spending too much time on the hookah? I think it's more to do with things like this...

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

&

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

... and the rocket attacks, bombings, you name it there's plenty more reasons... rather than the fact that Hamas were democratically elected.

Doesn't change a thing about US's hypocrisy when it comes foreign policy.

nice deflection

The United States isn't allowed to have a disagreement with democratically elected governments (or treaties and agreements with non-democracies).

Anything else is hypocrisy.

After the leaking of documents about previous peace deals where palistinian negotiators were betraying their own people, its likely the West Bank will be next. and then Lebanon. maybe even the house of Saud.

Apparantly China has begun filtering the Word Egypt from search engines and twitter. What chance another Tiananmen Square ?
Mubarak deserves the same fate as Mussolini.

The whole BS of who supplied the bullets etc is just... grrr.
I mean in the US they'd throw out a case if you tried to sue WalMart because they sold the bullets - yet on an international stage it comes in to play? Surely the guilty person is the one who pulls the trigger :(

nice deflection

Deflect wut? You're the one who's still knit picking what I said.

I'm talking about the establishment of democracies in countries ruled by dictatorships on the basis of serving America's national interest. They kicked up a stink when Hamas was voted in but have allowed Mubarak (one of many dictators in the middle east) to rule for 30 years and counting. What are they waiting for? isn't he a dictator who is bad to his people? much like Saddam was after 24 years of rule? the people have spoken yet he's still there. I fail to see how you fail to see the hypocrisy there.

I'm not suggesting that there isn't hypocrisy in America's foreign policy. But at the same time I don't expect them to police every country that steps out of line. Sure Moubarak and his gov. are s*** but at the same time they aren't posing a direct threat continuing thread to American interests in the middle east. Nor is it in their charter/constitution/whatever they call it, that they won't stop until Israel is destroyed.

The way I look at it is that the US is out there to look after the asses of itself and its friends.. (which is perfectly acceptable) they have a bad guy threatening their friends, and a bad guy helping them out. I don't see a massive (if any) problem in going for the bad guy threatening them first. Sure the other guy has to be dealt with at some point but you shouldn't compare and contrast them as equal situations as you have and then have such a cry about it.


edit: took out the last part, watching al jazeera now which is showing the opposite of what my old man said... he's ususally full of s*** anyway.

last edited by kr0wb4r at 22:02:38 30/Jan/11

edit #2: okay so he wasn't totally wrong, the police have left the street and there has been looting but now the military is in.

last edited by kr0wb4r at 22:03:43 30/Jan/11

oh noes, how will the egyptians see the new spartacus episode if they have no intranets!!!

no wonder they are rioting.

America gives Egypt 1.2 billion dollars in military aid.
They pay money to a Dictators regime to keep Israel safe.

I'm not suggesting that there isn't hypocrisy in America's foreign policy

Ya well that was my point right from the start.

but it's not a big deal, so what's your issue?

http://rlv.zcache.com/im_kind_of_a_big_deal_anchorman_tshirt-p235376672045349906qre7_400.jpg

To you it's not. On the big scheme of things it is and is relevant to the riots that are happening as we speak. The hypocrisy in what it preaches is just one of many reasons for the hatred for the USA. Over the years it has created more conflict and left countries war torn as a direct result of its aggressive foreign policy, so saying it's not a big deal is just oversimplifying things just a bit.

didnt america make god?

Nah america created fake wrestling, fast food and south park.

funny you mention wrestling. god, his son, his pedophile, uh i mean prophet, and all that jazz is about as real as WWE! ;D


In more related news, the egyptian gov has shut down al jazeera in egypt

"Al Jazeera denounced the closure of its bureau, saying the move was designed to stifle free reporting"source

America has done some pretty f***ing amazing things too.

krowbar are you denying the existence of Muhammad? That's a pretty f***ing bold statement and of course f***ing retarded.

Saying Muhammad didn't exist is like saying Napoleon didn't exist.

It's a fact of history haha wow you're a f***ing moron. You should read an article I wrote about uneducated athiests.

Don't want to derail this into religion so I won't reply any further but as an athiest you make me embarrassed to call myself one.

last edited by spoon at 22:55:23 30/Jan/11

last edited by spoon at 23:02:02 30/Jan/11

Yeah I did. got a problem? come see me i'm the dude covered in bacon.

haha.

and on that bombshell GOOD NIGHT EVERYBODY!

*top gear outro music*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8289686/Egypt-protests-Americas-secret-backing-for-rebel-leaders-behind-uprising.html

America stabbed Mubarak in the back.
...and after Joe Biden got in front of the cameras to tell everyone what nice guy Mubarak was.

and how this for a coincidence ???


"We actually this week are hosting senior Egyptian military leaders at the Pentagon for our annual bilateral defense talks, referred to at the Military Cooperation Committee, which is chaired jointly by Assistant Secretary of Defense Sandy Vershbow and Lieutenant General Sami Anan, the chief of staff of the Egyptian armed forces," Morrell told journalists Wednesday.



http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/0111/Egyptian_military_delegation_at_Pentagon_for_annual_meeting.html?showall



last edited by FaceMan at 23:20:04 30/Jan/11

This is cool, social media snapshot of general goings on in Egypt: http://www.abc.net.au/news/infographics/storify.htm?id=unrest-in-egypt

Its pretty obvious why america doesnt like Hamas, even thought they were elected, there primary goal is the destruction of isreal, not exactly a peaceful or well meaning political party is it.

How democratic you are is inversely related to the length of time until your next free and fair election.

Just saw the Vodafone UK press release talking about how they were basically made to shut off all internet connectivity by the Egyptian govt. "or else". Very scary stuff, especially when you consider the magnitude of that sort of thing..

Unrelated:

dazhel that blue harvest? ...


awesome movie btw :P

The quote was from the original Star Wars. Seems kids these days don't know about something unless it's on Family Guy or Justin Beeballs/Kesha sings about it.

we are pulling out all expats and stopped production of all beer

Big developments tonight. Now there are anti and pro mubarack supporters going at it.

Watching live on Aljazeerah i saw someone get trampled.. others got kicked off their horses and bashed to death.

The army is just standing by and watching it all happen.

ps. 9th day of protests

last edited by JakeG at 02:01:20 03/Feb/11

I'm surprised no military general has stepped up to take over.

Mubarak was a General thats probably why, in fact Egypt has been run by army people ever since they killed their last king

Mubarak apparently came to power after a small part of the army took matters into their own hands with his predecessor:
Wikipedia

Sadat was protected by four layers of security and eight bodyguards, and the army parade should have been safe due to ammunition-seizure rules. As Egyptian Air Force Mirage jets flew overhead, distracting the crowd, Egyptian Army soldiers and troop trucks paraded. One troop truck contained the assassination squad, led by Lieutenant Khalid Islambouli. As the truck passed, the assassins dismounted, and Islambouli approached Sadat. Sadat stood to receive his salute, whereupon, Islambouli threw three grenades at Sadat, only one of which exploded, and additional assassins rose from the truck, firing assault rifles into the stands. After Sadat was hit and fell to the ground, people threw chairs around him to protect him from the hail of bullets. He died from bullet wounds to his aorta though he also had intestinal and neck wounds.

army is ~40, 000 strong

police force is ~200, 000/300, 000 strong.

that's why mubarak has been able to control the nation for 30 years without much attention from the west, he's using the police and not the army to control the people

On Big Picture today: http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/02/a_harrowing_historic_week_in_e.html

At the risk of sounding insensitive, photos of crowds of people in the Middle East being upset about something is getting a bit passé. It's almost like there's a pervasive common theme throughout that whole region that results in large amounts of unhappiness.

On Big Picture today: http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/02/a_harrowing_historic_week_in_e.html

At the risk of sounding insensitive, photos of crowds of people in the Middle East being upset about something is getting a bit passé. It's almost like there's a pervasive common theme throughout that whole region that results in large amounts of unhappiness.

it's called defacto dictatorships

At the risk of sounding insensitive, photos of crowds of people in the Middle East being upset about something is getting a bit passé. It's almost like there's a pervasive common theme throughout that whole region that results in large amounts of unhappiness.

Violent pro-democracy protests against stubborn dictators is SO last week, but Rome wasn't burnt in a day y'know.

Wont somebody please think of the camels.

Israel is now helping Mubarak stay in power.
Theyve allowed the Egyptian Military to move into the Sinai which violates their previous peace deal.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8293536/Egypt-crisis-Israel-rallies-to-support-of-Egyptian-regime.html


A few days ago 3 planeloads of Crowd Control weapons were sent from Israel to Egypt.

Mubarak isnt going anywhere.

Jordans King has sacked the current Cabinet and is forming a new Government after mass demonstrations over the last few days.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/jordan/8296137/Jordanian-King-sacks-his-cabinet-to-stem-protests.html

King Abduallah is just s***ting himself seeing what's happening in Egypt and had decided to be somewhat proactive.

Let this be a lesson to all oppressive regimes in the region. Meanwhile Israel arrogantly and carelessly continues to back leaders of oppression and dictatorships to serve its self and then has the nerve to boast about being the only democratic country in the region.

s***'s about to go down son.

Mubarack will be leaving in 7/8 months time I believe.. He just isn't going to give it all up now and be shunned out.

That 7/8 months will give him plenty of time to catch the organisers/leaders and torture/kill them.

Those Dictators only stay in power because Countries like us follow US Foreign Policy the the letter. We are the enemy of those people trying to get rid of Mubarak and its a disgrace.

George Bush was right all along. All it took was to make Iraq a functioning and free democracy and it would spread democracy throughout the middle east, bringing with it equal rights for all ethnicities, religions and both sexes. If Iraqi kurds can have a say in their government why shouldn't Egypt's coptics? If normal Iraqi women can petition their government for change, why shouldn't Saudi housewives?

Iran's been hurt by it. Jordan scared. Egypt's past the tipping point and the religious apartheid state of the Sauds will be the final frontier.

George Bush was right all along. All it took was to make Iraq a functioning and free democracy and it would spread democracy throughout the middle east, bringing with it equal rights for all ethnicities, religions and both sexes

haha that's gotta be a troll post right?

"George Bush was right all along" haha gotta be.

The trigger wasn't Iraq.

The trigger was Tunisia.

Iraq was the US trying to force something, Tunisia was the people wanting something.

Summer in Europe soon, I wonder if the Austerity measures in England might get the crowds on the streets there too or other in Euro basket case Countries.

I always thought Jordan was a relatively calm Country but apparantly theres been an explosion in food prices and the standard of living has gone down.

Yeah George Bush with a 20/20 political foresight is the kind of stuff you'd read in a fictional novel inspired by fictitious events that supposedly occurred on planet infi (IhaveNof***ingIdea).

As opposed to mass graves in Iraq fixah?

What obes said.

As opposed to mass graves in Iraq fixah?

f***ing lol.

Orange and apples.

How so?

They said Bush had foresight.

You said bulls***, imaginary, delusional.

You said there were mass graves in Iraq (not the ones Saddam filled with Kurds and Shias (sp))

We said bulls***, imaginary, delusional.

So you believe bush has foresight?

So you believe bush has foresight?

I don't think he's a stupid as the liberal media likes to make out, but he didn't didn't have a role to play the current popular democratic uprisings in the middle east.

So you believe there are mass graves full of US troops?

I always thought Jordan was a relatively calm Country but apparantly theres been an explosion in food prices and the standard of living has gone down.

You can thank the Americans Feds Quantitiave Easing for that. Printing several hundred billion $, its gota hurt someone.

Saddam was kept in charge by bribes from America just like Mubarak.
Saddam became far more ruthless as a result of crippling sanctions that hurt only the people of Iraq.

I think the days of an absolute monarchy are numbered. People like to feel like they have a say. Even if partisan politics renders individual votes useless.

So you believe there are mass graves full of US troops?

what's the bet this question goes unanswered.

MF ignored it when I asked him last in this thread.

original thread for reference

Look the numbers are going to be disputable but so far there are well over 4000 deaths that have been reported, and i believe there would be more. You'll also find that not once did I even mention 'Mass Graves' in the thread that fpot/taggs likes to pull up everytime they feel like they need to discredit me. It was BigZub that brought it up but you can call it whatever you wanna call it.

Still, bringing up a thread 5 years ago that has no relation to what i'm saying obviously shows you're clutching at straws. Also fade's argument is strawman to the bone and is merely just disagreeing/trolling with me for the hell of it.

I googled "mass graves in Iraq" and all I got was this page about Saddam's atrocities.

BigZub/Fixah/suhiab.. I get confused. How about not changing your handle so we can keep track.

or change your name to TokenMuslimGuy for luls

BigZub/Fixah/suhiab.. I get confused. How about not changing your handle so we can keep track.

So you can keep track of the posts we make and every time you feel like disagreeing you say "no you're wrong you said this random comment 10 years ago"?

Seriously dudes, find something more useful to do with your lives.

p.s. I might change it to Fixah to keep it short, but rest assure it'll remain that so you can 'prove' me wrong in the future when you feel like you're losing an e-battle.

Faceman have you ever travelled beyond the f***ing bubble you are trapped in ...

I supposedly made 1 far fetched claim and gronks get on their high horse every time i open my mouth. I can't imagine faceman ever being able to redeem himself around here, and he's not even muslim/arab haha..

Im not really concerned with winning popularity contests on QGL.
I seem to be targeted a lot just because i bother to look a little deeper at certain subjects.

The angry attacks directed at me are more likely to come from people that are confused by having to read opinions other than thier own GroupThink.

I seem to be targeted a lot just because i bother to look a little deeper at certain subjects.

It's not because you bother to look, it's the views you then form that you get targeted for.

Look the numbers are going to be disputable but so far there are well over 4000 deaths that have been reported, and i believe there would be more. You'll also find that not once did I even mention 'Mass Graves' in the thread that fpot/taggs likes to pull up everytime they feel like they need to discredit me.

...

Now for my own spin on the matter: They're doing all of the above cause they're f***ing pussies and it's evident by the number of casualties that they've suffered. 2500 soldiers they reckon ? aha, how about you multiply that by 40. That's playing at safe and a minimium figure too.

the reason i asked in the previous thread is i was genuinely interested as to whether you still believed that. chill out with the persecution complex bulls***, it's pathetic.

the reason i brought it up in this thread is you didn't answer in the previous one. i'm also betting you won't answer it in this one. you cry about people trying to discredit you, but how could someone asking for your opinion on something discredit you in any way except if the opinion itself is retarded? saying something like "the numbers are going to be disputed" is complete cop out bulls*** because no one is disputing the numbers to the extent you are.

so i'd be super happy if you'd just answer in a straight forward manner whether or not you still believe that the US has covered up 100,000+ deaths of US soldiers in iraq as you have previously claimed on this forum.

Im not really concerned with winning popularity contests on QGL

Ditto. Except i've won the popularity contest (for the wrong reasons).

20030826 - President Bush's Speech to the ALNC

Iraq's progress toward self-determination and democracy brings hope to other oppressed people in the region and throughout the world. It is the rise of democracy that tyrants fear and terrorists seek to undermine. The people who yearn for liberty and opportunity in countries like Iran and throughout the Middle East are watching and they are praying for our success in Iraq.

More progress will come in Iraq, and it will require hard and sustained efforts. As many of you saw firsthand in Germany and Japan after World War II, the transition from dictatorship to democracy is a massive undertaking. It's not an easy task. In the aftermath of World War II, that task took years, not months, to complete. And, yet, the effort was repaid many times over as former enemies became friends and allies and partners in keeping the peace.

Likewise, the work we do today is essential to the peace of the world and for the security of our country. America is a nation that understands its responsibilities and keeps its word. And we will honor our word to the people of Iraq and those in the Middle East who yearn for freedom.

20031106 - Speech to the 20th Anniversary of the National Endowment for Democracy

Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe -- because in the long run, stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty. As long as the Middle East remains a place where freedom does not flourish, it will remain a place of stagnation, resentment, and violence ready for export. And with the spread of weapons that can bring catastrophic harm to our country and to our friends, it would be reckless to accept the status quo. (Applause.)

Therefore, the United States has adopted a new policy, a forward strategy of freedom in the Middle East. This strategy requires the same persistence and energy and idealism we have shown before. And it will yield the same results. As in Europe, as in Asia, as in every region of the world, the advance of freedom leads to peace.

20031107 - Some more highlights from that speech in a writeup in the BaltimoreSun

President Bush laid out a broad vision Thursday of an American mission to spread democracy throughout the Middle East and the rest of the world, saying, "Freedom can be the future of every nation."
...

The United States has long supported authoritarian regimes in the Middle East, partly because of the nation's need for oil from the region. Several countries in the region were also seen as allies in the superpower competition with the Soviet Union.

Bush took the uncharacteristic step of implicitly criticizing his predecessors, saying that previous policies were shortsighted.

"Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe, because in the long run stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty," the president said.

Bush went further than he had in the past, singling out countries for criticism or commendation. He challenged Egypt, a key U.S. ally in the region, to embrace democracy and praised other Arab allies -- Morocco, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, Yemen, Jordan and Saudi Arabia -- for taking first steps toward political reform.

20050225 in an article titled Democracy in Iraq by Col Stephen Schwalbe

" As there are no Arab liberal democracies of any kind in the Middle East today, the Bush Administration envisioned that a successful implementation of democracy in Iraq (what President Bush often refers to as “freedom”) would spread liberal democracy throughout the Arab world. This foreign policy objective is clearly articulated in the 2002 National Security Strategy of the United States of America (NSS)"

I haven't read the full 2002NSS but parts of it are quoted there.

20050120 - Bush pledges to spread democracy

"It is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world," Bush said in his inaugural address after his swearing-in ceremony.

"We have seen our vulnerability, and we have seen its deepest source," he said. "For as long as whole regions of the world simmer in resentment and tyranny -- prone to ideologies that feed hatred and excuse murder -- violence will gather, and multiply in destructive power, and cross the most defended borders, and raise a mortal threat."

Bush said that his primary responsibility was to protect the nation from attack and that "the force of human freedom" was the greatest weapon against tyranny and hatred.

"We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands. The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of freedom in all the world.
...
The president pledged to continue efforts to spread democracy throughout the world. "We will persistently clarify the choice before every ruler and every nation -- the moral choice between oppression, which is always wrong, and freedom, which is eternally right.

You can believe if you want that Egypt would still be in turmoil now if Iraq wasn't democracy and Saddam was still in power, and that people still would've revolted in Iran, and that it's all because Wikileaks published some documents showing that corrupt dictators are really corrupt dictators, if that's what you want. Change takes time, and no where in any of these speeches does Bush say it'll happen in a short time, he speaks of it taking a long time, and makes it very clear that he's ashamed of the support previous American governments have given tyrants and undemocratic governments in the past and that they will not be supported going forward.

am i reading this right ?

You think America strives for Democracy ?
America approves of Countries following its Foreign policy like we do.
heres a list of a few of Americas non-democracies that they funded.

Abacha, General Sani ----------------------Nigeria
Amin, Idi ---------------------------------Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo ----------------------Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio ------------------------Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal ---------------------Brunei
Botha, P.W. -------------------------------South Africa
Branco, General Humberto ------------------Brazil
Cedras, Raoul -----------------------------Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio ---------------------------Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek ---------------------------Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo --------------------Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo -----------------------El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn ----------------------------Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel -----------------------Liberia
Duvalier, Francois ------------------------Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude----------------------Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King ----------------Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco -----------------Spain
Hitler, Adolf -----------------------------Germany
Hassan II----------------------------------Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand -------------------------Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez ---El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko --------------------------Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel -------------------Panama
Ozal, Turgut ------------------------------Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza ---------------Iran
Papadopoulos, George ----------------------Greece
Park Chung Hee ----------------------------South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto -----------------Chile
Pol Pot------------------------------------Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni ------------------Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios ----------------Guatemala
Salassie, Halie ---------------------------Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira --------------Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr. ---------------------Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr. --------------------Nicaragua
Smith, Ian --------------------------------Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo -----------------------Paraguay
Suharto, General --------------------------Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas -----------------Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael --------------Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed ----------------------Pakistan

looks pretty real to me.

The Egyptian military has called for an end to more than a week of demonstrations after Hosni Mubarak, the president, said he would step down in September after nearly 30 years in power.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8298021/Egypt-military-calls-for-end-to-protests.html

Starting to look ominous.

Starting to look ominous.

Maybe, or maybe the military realise they've let things go far by saying they wouldn't use force against protesters at the start of the week. By saying that they all but supported the protests, and in the face of the violence we've seen they may feel they need to walk that back a bit and give themselves more options to break up genuinely dangerous situations. Only time will tell because I'm pretty sure the protests will continue until Mubarak steps down or there is a violent crackdown.

The latest is there is another big standoff between pro-democracy and pro-Mubarak forces forming with the military seemingly trying to get in the middle of it.

Machine gun fire has echoed around Cairo as military forces try to stop skirmishes between protesters from turning into pitched battles.

Link

Edit: Not exactly heavily armed -

The intensified military action comes as pro-democracy protesters have reinforced huge defensive barricades in Tahrir Square, where they have stockpiled stones for ammunition.

Supporters loyal to President Hosni Mubarak were earlier spotted amassing in the district of Giza, armed with knives and sticks, and preparing to move in the direction of the square.

But dangerous enough so we'll see how far it goes and in what manner the military will step in.

last edited by Chakas at 02:29:22 04/Feb/11

Imagine if this happened in china

Imagine if this happened in china

Tiananmen Square massacre all over again?

Faceman,

Its obvious from your copynpaste response that no, you are not reading my post right.

Imagine if this happened in china

It has before. Google Tiananmen Square. Just not from google China.

Im not really concerned with winning popularity contests on QGL.
I seem to be targeted a lot just because i bother to look a little deeper at certain subjects.

The angry attacks directed at me are more likely to come from people that are confused by having to read opinions other than thier own GroupThink.

I for one find your posts quite interesting, some of it I agree with, some of it I disagree... . unfortunately its just that people can get quite touchy and have very strong opinions on the subjects you post about and that's why ppl flare up.

We all get things wrong, have our own opinions and think differently. Keep contributing M8. f*** what everyone else says.

That's the thing, you may say one thing that's incorrect in the eyes of others and everything else you say from there on automatically gets written off, correct or otherwise.

f*** the people and fight the power. Ain't that right facemask.

nothing faceman does annoys me more than his leaving a space after the last letter in his sentence before the question mark. like this, 'why is FaceMan such an insufferable Twat ?'

needs more rogue capital letters funky

Faceman tries to be like Mikey, what if guys, what if? But is more like Chunk not playing the game and not wanting to do the truffleshuffle.

So here's a question:

If you're a real democracy (and by 'real' I mean you have free, fair, and open elections), what do you (if you are a government) if you have a similar thing happen?

Say we had hundreds of thousands of people pissed off at something here, to the point where they were in the streets in front of Parliament House in all the major cities.

The really only "correct" action I can think of to take is not for the government to step down, but for them to call another election. So if they believe there's a significant proportion of the population that is really, really unhappy with the government to the point where it is destabilising the country in a major way, they could call another election.

We, as free-thinking democratic citizens who love democracy and realise the benefits of the democratic process, presumably would accept this gracefully... right?

And if it was revealed that, despite the protests and claims of the protesters, the democratic process resulted in keeping the current government in power, would everyone quietly accept it and move on? Or would protests resume even stronger with claims of rigged elections, etc?

I don't think political leaders should be blindly bowing to the will of the mob, because mobs are often dumb. So by that logic, I have to think that Mubarek should not just be stepping down in response to the unrest - he should be calling for a free and democratic election, and that should be the only view that other international governments should be supporting.

The problem is that he has already proven himself incapable of running free and fair elections. A win for Mubarak's party would now carry little credibility.

Mob wouldn't care. It would be a lose/lose situation.

We, as free-thinking democratic citizens who love democracy and realise the benefits of the democratic process, presumably would accept this gracefully... right?

^That directly conflicts with this:

because mobs are often dumb.

However, I would replace 'often' with always. When it turns from a demonstration (Set time, few hours or 1 day) into a raving mob (destruction, violence, long lasting) I think they cross the line from protesters to 'Mob'

In the end though. We (and by that I mean 'I') have been brought up in a wonderful, peaceful (withn borders) country with free/open/fair elections. So we (I) have abso-f***ing-lutely no idea just whats going on in their lives. If I lived a life of oppresion I might just be ready to snap and stab someone too. Hopefully, I'll never know.

The problem is that he has already proven himself incapable of running free and fair elections. A win for Mubarak's party would now carry little credibility.

Yep - I think for anyone to take it seriously he would have to let a third party (eg, the UN) run the election.

Mob wouldn't care. It would be a lose/lose situation.

That's what I fear as well :(

The Country's welfare must be above the Government.
Mubarak places himself beyond the people and above his Country.
He should stand down for the sake of Egypt but he wont.

Many times you will see someone step aside as Ledaer from a Political Party, like Rudd did because the Party always comes first. There is no real Party in Egypt, Mubarak Is the Party.

Israel could have stepped up and told him to go and the people of Egypt may have welcomed that support, instead Israel has decided to keep yet another Arab Country in a decrepid state. All of Egypt will now see that Mubarak is a puppet for Israel, increasing their anger.

So here's a question:

If you're a real democracy (and by 'real' I mean you have free, fair, and open elections), what do you (if you are a government) if you have a similar thing happen?

Say we had hundreds of thousands of people pissed off at something here, to the point where they were in the streets in front of Parliament House in all the major cities.

The really only "correct" action I can think of to take is not for the government to step down, but for them to call another election. So if they believe there's a significant proportion of the population that is really, really unhappy with the government to the point where it is destabilising the country in a major way, they could call another election.

We, as free-thinking democratic citizens who love democracy and realise the benefits of the democratic process, presumably would accept this gracefully... right?

And if it was revealed that, despite the protests and claims of the protesters, the democratic process resulted in keeping the current government in power, would everyone quietly accept it and move on? Or would protests resume even stronger with claims of rigged elections, etc?

I don't think political leaders should be blindly bowing to the will of the mob, because mobs are often dumb. So by that logic, I have to think that Mubarek should not just be stepping down in response to the unrest - he should be calling for a free and democratic election, and that should be the only view that other international governments should be supporting.

Right. If an angry mob demands change, but the majority vote the same, the mob has the same obligation to respect the mandate as the government would have if they lost. They have every right to continue to peaceably protest, but once it steps over the line, I don't think any sensible argument can protect them. They ought to be arrested immediately.

Didn't he already say he was going to step down? I agree that at this point, he should move that date much further forward.
I imagine there would be a pretty big logistical problem if his entire party was ousted though. Who would be in charge, who would run what? You cant just install a new set of people over night and expect everything to continue on like nothing happened.

Um... Rudd didn't really 'step aside' he realised he was totally f***ed and tried to save as much face as he could.

Israel did seem to play a very poor hand, time will tell how much that gets blown back in their face.

Dictatators always say they are gonna step down.
Then "something happens" and they stay on.
nah, he has to go, right now or it will never happen.
Just imagine the crackdown if he now stays, The Police will attempt to arrest anyone who protested, anyone whos face was on TV.

I was reading somewhere that he has survived something like 20 assassination attempts LOL GET THE HINT >?

If you're a real democracy (and by 'real' I mean you have free, fair, and open elections), what do you (if you are a government) if you have a similar thing happen?

Mubarek should not just be stepping down in response to the unrest

Not sure if read that right but Egypt has no real democracy or any sort of democracy whatsoever, so i don't see how your question would apply to Mubarak's regime/dictatorship. He's been there for 30 years with the aid of the US and Israel against his people's wishes. A true democracy would have this guy shooed off like a fly a long time ago.

Time to go, and now.

Well Egypt has no real democracy or any sort of democracy whatsoever, so i don't see how your question would apply to Mubarak's regime. He's been there for 30 years with the aid of the US and Israel against the people's wishes. A true democracy would have this guy shooed off like a fly a long time ago.

Time to go, and now.

It doesn't - I was asking a hypothetical about how it would apply here under similar circumstances and then extrapolating out the logic that I had about how I think it should/should/could happen here into how it could happen there.

Also, are there any "true democracies" in the Middle East? Or in Africa, for that matter? I honestly have no idea.

It doesn't - I was asking a hypothetical about how it would apply here under similar circumstances and then extrapolating out the logic that I had about how I think it should/should/could happen here into how it could happen there.

Also, are there any "true democracies" in the Middle East? Or in Africa, for that matter? I honestly have no idea.

in terms of transparent elections; perhaps only Israel.

According to the "Democracy Index" (published by the Economist, a neo-liberal British journal), in 2010 The Middle East does not have any "established democracies". Israel has the highest score in the region with a score of 7.48, corresponding to the status of "flawed democracy", the only one in the region. The highest scores of countries of the Islamic countries of the region are held by Lebanon (5.82) and Turkey (5.73), classified as "hybrid regimes". Also in the "hybrid regimes" category are the Palestinian territories, Pakistan, Armenia and Iraq. The remaining countries of the Middle East are categorized as authoritarian regimes, with scores below 2 held by Libya, Iran and Saudi Arabia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_the_Middle_East

I'd be interested to know fixah, do you think a western style democracy like we have in Australia would work in the arab countries?

I'm happy to be wrong but I reckon that given the opportunity Arab nations would vote in Shariah Law pretty quickly - abolishing democracy for theocracy.

We're seeing Iraqi politics being massively dominated by theocratic issues around the Sunni-Shia division, making the country almost a theocracy already before the yanks even leave!

I'd be interested to know fixah, do you think a western style democracy like we have in Australia would work in the arab countries?

Maybe some, but not for most. Wouldn't work in Iraq, IMO.

Maybe some, but not for most. Wouldn't work in Iraq, IMO.

What's stopping it from happening?

What do you think would work? Is it a desirable outcome for Iraq to be a democracy in your opinion?

(oh and its not a tarp dude, genuinely curious as to a 'local's thoughts, most commentary is from Westerners who assume democracy is best...)

Huge protests happening now and the threat of the Army taking action has passed.

http://english.aljazeera.net/

http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/imagecache/318/480/mritems/Images/2011/2/4/201124112724544797_20.jpg

In a democracy when people protest in the streets en mass, the government either reconciles with them or puts up with the protests until the next election.

These people are protesting in the streets where there aren't free elections, so they protest until the government flees or crushes them.

This article paints a sad picture about what's happened in Egypt, claiming that the army has already won by siding with the protesters and being accepted now as their defender: Game Over: The chance for democracy in Egypt is lost.

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/02/04/1226000/452112-brisbane-egypt-protest.jpg

100+ ppl marched today in Brisbane.

It's interesting to note that the good ol' us of a is only ranked the 17th most democratic country in the world.

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/02/04/1226000/452112-brisbane-egypt-protest.jpg

100+ ppl marched today in Brisbane.

Haha that's my mate in orange!!! so sending him this pic.

Also hoggy i'm not sure what would work. Democracy doesn't work when you have a country divided into sects and factions with completely different ideologies. A dictatorship does keep a country together but at the cost of people's freedom. Then there's the idea of breaking up Iraq into Sunni, Shia, Kurd, Miscellaneous section and then gradually establish some sort of democracy within each region but yeah good luck to whoever is going to attempt to manage that. Sadly i think dictatorship worked in Iraq in terms of establishing national security and thus eliminating sectarian violence, which is key in any country. That alone though is not enough for a country to prosper and move forward. I'm not a political expert by any sense of the word and I don't have the answer. If i did i wouldn't be posting about it on a forum and instead be out there earning the big bux.

It's interesting to note that the good ol' us of a is only ranked the 17th most democratic country in the world.

NZ and Aus do pretty damn well compared to a lot of places.

5 New Zealand 9.26 Full democracy Constitutional monarchy and parliamentary democracy, unicameralism, semi-direct democracy
6 Australia 9.22 Full democracy Federalism, constitutional monarchy and parliamentary democracy, bicameralism

divide and conquer...hopefully the Egyptians realise this and actually start uniting once this problem has been dealt with.

I am surprised the military haven't thrown him out yet. They have to realise the jig is up.

There are some disturbing rumours doing the rounds.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/american-warships-heading-to-egypt.html

One being a report that America is sending some troops to Egypt, more so the Sinai.

http://www.businessinsider.com/senior-us-marine-says-multiple-platoons-are-headed-to-egypt-2011-2
The other is that America is sending in some Warships allegedly only for an Evacuation emergency but the Warships carry some useful Attack aircraft and possibly some tanks and tropp carriers etc...

Maybe they are concerned about the Suez Canal ?

If a Muslim Brotherhood government takes over they want no US Troops in the Sinai. Interesting developments.



last edited by FaceMan at 23:30:01 07/Feb/11

anyone taking bets on who's next?

http://media.economist.com/images/images-magazine/2011/02/05/fb/20110205_fbc110.gif

source: http://www.economist.com/node/18065663