yeah from what i've read there isn't any one size fits all build orders - it all comes down to what your opponent is doing. sc2 = scoutcraft.

but seeing as i'm super nub i'm just working on getting a couple of versatile build orders down and then once i stop being superbad i'll work from there ^_^

yeah think i'll give this a miss, having the strict build orders and s*** i can't be f***ed with

i was never really good at warcraft 3 with all the build orders and s***

lulz
those builds only account for the first couple of mins of a game. They are the most efficient way of getting into a game. After that it is up to you to react to the opposition.

Eg. like if you go that void ray build and he scounts and gets marines and vikings... well blz you lose.

It sounds like its all about rushing, which is a bit gay. What happened to rushing being a lame, cheese, bulls*** strat? Now its like the only strat I ever see recommended. Doesn't sound like much fun tbh.

i'm pretty noob so i could be wrong, but rushing isn't a guaranteed win - especially vs good players.

some maps are slightly more rush-friendly, and some aren't. but i'd bet any decent player who scouts properly can see a rush coming and make arrangements to counter it.

if only i was that good to be able to pull that off all the time ><

Then dont rush. defend against the rush? scout it early? Rushes are popular in bronze and silver because it is easy if your opponent sits there teching up. No map control and less units. trying to build too much to account for every form of attack.

If you don't scout then you wont know whats coming so you have to spread your resources thin on variety of defense

Awesome, just installed SC2 and bnet is down. Can't even play single player, gg.

bnet is working fine currently?

Also, it's not about rushing so much as 'rushing' to get ANY army up for a defense.

If you think this differs from any other RTS then you are very misguided.

With most strategy games, the way to win is to defeat your opponent. If your opponent can't beat a rush, then you don't have a lot to learn from them. When you get to the better players who stop you in your tracks and turn the tables on you. You can analyse the game/replay and learn from it. You even eventually see where the strengths and weaknesses are in units and combos and what is more effective against what. As you get more skilled things like Scouting, Expanding and generally understanding the mindset of your opponent become easier for you. It's getting to that stage that is the tough part. But it's worth it as you see ultimately it should be about strategy not a cookie cutter rush strat =]

But the good news is that even a lot of losses help you improve your game significantly if you can learn from your mistakes and understand why your opponent beat you.

Rushing is effective only when don't know how to deal with it. A simple biuld order to 10-15 supply and you have an army capable of defeating a naive player who hasn't yet optimised their gameplay and doesn't know hw to defend a rush.

Its exactly like the original in this regard. I remember being on newsgroups (peopel used to talk on them!) and people saying that rushing was ruining the game blah blah. When you think about it though, what are tier one units for? The early game is just a stage, and aggression / combat is part of it.

Its easy to defend a rush and gain advantage from it when you start to understand the game mechanics. A person early attacking (I hate the term rushing) will be sacrificing income for the job. Usually they also need to travel across the map, so there is delay - and every second counts.

You also have your workers, which are instrumental to holding a rush. These are combat units! Learn how to use them in combat and how to delay and pick off the incoming zerglings with your few tier one units. The defender generally has the advantage when a rush arrives - its how to maximise your units in defence and then knowing how to return the favour.

Most new players just fall apart when they see a proxy pylon or early pool ling rush. Its this 'oh for f***s sake' moment that ends you - not the rush itself.

That 'oh for f***s sake' moment in 4v4 usually DOES end you since it often means death before you or anybody can respond, or at least total annihilation of your economy :/

ok maybe i'll give it a go

i did like warcraft 3 even though i was crap at it 1 on 1

i'm alright at teams though

see if i walk away from chermside with it tonight

With most strategy games, the way to win is to defeat your opponent.

Oh, that's where I've been going wrong! :D

Oh the rush thing, you'll find it's the most common strat 9/10 times when you first hit multiplayer. All you need to do is keep an eye on what they're doing and leave some well placed units between you and their base so you know what is incoming.

As Terran I usually pump out some supply depots on the path leading into the base, then bunkers behind that with marines inside. Attacking the supply depots is enough warning that you need to keep an eye on that area, move some SCV's in to repair the depots/bunkers and other units you have available can mosey on over. Once the rush has been dealt with you've hopefully got yourself in a position where you are able to counter attack with minimal higher tech units (a good mix up of units goes a long way here) as the other guy wasted all his resources trying to rush.

As hoggy said, it's the first stage in the war - if you can survive it and the other guy isn't a 12yr old who only knows how to do that and will quit the game when it fails, then you're in for a long enjoyable game.

i was alright at like 3 on 3 and 4 on 4 in warcraft, everyone masses 1 unit and you try and get a good mix

is that how it's done in the 3v3 and 4v4's in this?

i was alright at like 3 on 3 and 4 on 4 in warcraft, everyone masses 1 unit and you try and get a good mix

is that how it's done in the 3v3 and 4v4's in this?

Pretty much yes.

Also in W3 you could create unlimited profiles, so 'pro' players could recreate to be a 'noob' again and stomp people far below their skill.

In Starcraft 2 you get one profile and that's it (unless you buy multiple keys/copies), so once people settle into their proper spots there should be people playing people of their respective skill levels

i was alright at like 3 on 3 and 4 on 4 in warcraft, everyone masses 1 unit and you try and get a good mix

is that how it's done in the 3v3 and 4v4's in this?

It depends on your opponents, its a mix. An organised team will usually go for timed attacks with tier one though, because 4v1 is just so brutal.

In the random 3v3 and 4v4 at lower tiers it does tend to be about massing void rays and s*** though, because if you are not organised attacking four players on your own doesn't work very well..

ah that's awesome mephz

that is what s***ted me about playing 1 on 1 wc3

you'd come up against someone that is level 2 and that would be some korean pro and absolutely dominate you, my brother would be one of those c***s that was pretty good and would just keep starting new accounts trying to get to 100 wins and 0 losses

Is there a limit on the number of units that can attack a building? I don't know if it was a graphics thing or not but I had about 20 hellion's attacking structures but it seemed only about 12-15 were firing at it. The others would attack enemy units that got it range which seemed odd as they were supposed to be on the structure.

Depends, did you just click A+ move near the structure? if so, units will use their "AI" to change targets to enemy units over structures in this instance, particularly.

If you right mouse directly onto the structure the units should ignore all others and continue to attack.

All the units in range will attack anything you right click on. If they aren't in range then they will mill around and attack anything that gets close. If you attack-move then the units will attack other units first, then the buildings.

Tested this ticman and no, there is no limit for air units, for ground melee obviously the limit is how many units you can get around the building in melee range.

I did a right click on the structure, all the units were around it but a few just didn't seem to be attacking .. maybe it was the 1am I've been playing for 5 hours glazy eye problem.

Now I think about it..... why did you have hellions attacking buildings?! hehe

Are you sure a couple of the hellions weren't lined up with the firing ling and firing at identical times? this can make it look like they're not all firing.

Otherwise, not too sure.

last edited by Mephz at 11:32:48 29/Jul/10

For ranged units like hellions you can get more attacking if you force move (right click) them in nice and close before letting them attack.

The AI prefers to stay at range for ranged units which makes sense when fighting stuff generally, you can get a nice arc just a-moving and lay some smack the f*** down.

However for base razing you really want to right click your ranged (marines, hydras, hellions, marauders) in close so they all get to rip s*** up. In team games, don't sit on the ramp killing s*** ahile your friends mill around at the bottom - force move up and let the line advance!

Stalkers and their ridiculously annoying f***ing blink have other options ><

Now I think about it..... why did you have hellions attacking buildings?!

The day/night mission where you have to go attack during the day, defend at night.

I had a couple of successful Terran games doing a rushed Banshee attack. In one of them the other guy was rushing Battlecruisers. Not knowing the best counter to a battlecruiser I just built a couple of ravens too keep the cruisers occupied while the banshee's ran amok ripping up his economy.

It wasn't long before I pumped out a few battlecruisers of my own, I had about 30 marines by this stage and they just ran into his base and cleaned up.

Also I seem to do well with my starting resources I'm pretty much spending all my income, however about halfway into the game my income starts to outstrip my spending. So far this hasn't been a problem as generally I'm winning the game at this stage, however if it is an even game I would be in trouble.

Any tips on how to better utilize large amounts of income without taking too much time away from managing battles?

just comes down to macro, toll, and practicing it. i have the exact same problem - i have my early game down pat but when it comes to middle game if i'm not already winning then i run into problems.

Any tips on how to better utilize large amounts of income without taking too much time away from managing battles?

For terran, this is what I do:

Put all production buildings onto a single hotkey (I use 5). The you can tab through them to queue units -- so say 5, then tab to the barrackseseses, mash d for marauders and a for marines, then tab to factories, s for some tanks, then starport, d for a few medics etc etc etc. You don't need to leave the field to make sure you are queueing units.

It also gives you very fast access to scan, since command centers rate highest. Once you have enough income you can also switch to using CC energy for lots of scoutng and low-APM supply boosts.

I normally just do supply in a block these days in the midgame - select a bunch of SCVs and shift-click out 5-6 depots and forget about ti a while. Its probably not the most effiient way to manage resources but it works.

Any tips on how to better utilize large amounts of income without taking too much time away from managing battles?

Hotkey your starport/barracks/factory so you can select it and punch out more units with the shortcuts - also can help to get reinforcements by setting the deployment point inside the enemy base.

OK I'll add that to the mix.

With the SCV's building supply depots. You don't have to shift click.
Juts drag a selection square over your scvs collecting minerals selecting as many as you want.

Then press B,S and place building. One SCV will walk over to do it.
You can repeat the B,S part multiple times and it will only send over the correct amount of SCV for that many Supply Depots. Then simple SHIFT Right click back on the mineral line. They will finish building and go back to minerals.

You can do this for any buildings. Saves time if only a few milliseconds it all adds up.

So I had my first multiplayer game and went zerg with a mass zergling/roach build. Flooded into the protoss base, and then noticed he had 5 void reavers. tried to take out as much of his base as I could but when he killed half my army he flew them down to my base and managed to kill my spire 5 seconds or so before it finished going up, and then proceeded to wipe out my base. Epic fail moment. Had like 20 larva saved up for mass muta as soon as the spire finished. Oh well I learned never to go mass roach/zerg without first having a hydralisk den or spire up before hand. 49 more games in practice leagues to go.

I never played Starcraft1 so im total noob at this sort of game, so f*** im just playing SP until i have a clue what im supposed to be doing.

Any tips on how to better utilize large amounts of income without taking too much time away from managing battles?

Improving your apm will gradually let you do this. As said, hotkeying buildings will help you there.

Look over old replays and take a note of your average apm, if you're floating around <50 you will be struglling to multi task in sc2.

Ive found that people get a lot better when they realise what the game expects from people to be good, if that makes sense. Basically it doesnt tell you that 40apm doesnt cut it if you want to multitask. So I guess what i'm saying is...you want to get your apm to >70 at least (this is apm in sc2 replays, it is noted that sc2 records apm differently, its recorded lower than what the community is used to seeing back in the day of sc1 because it doesnt record mouse clicks and a few other things). So unless its up to that number i guess u shouldnt get your expectations up. Just comes down to knowledge of the game so everything becomes reflex and you dont have to think about what you build and have to do. *

*if you want to argue that apm is not important, dont bother. it is :P esp in the lower thresholds where if its <50 you really cant manage to multitask. If you can effectively micro and macro with 50.. you're doing more than 50!

yeah that's my biggest issue is multitasking which was why i was crap at wc3 1 on 1

Yeh GG last night CSIRAC ... not >< You guys are pretty good :) korn hasn't changed much in sc2, he was a cainer in sc1 too ><

Once the match maker becomes more mature and there are less placements floating around it should help as well. The idea is that once you get your placements done you should be fighting people of an appropriate skill level. There are a few tards who will throw placements to pwn up the ladder but as you only have one account this should be pretty rare in sc2.

Keep in mind that if the match maker is doing its job then you should be about 50:50 wins to losses, slightly higher if you are improving over time.

ehe gg. i killed 2 scv's with my probe! hero probe! yeah that was few of the ppl ive been playing wow/stuff with for the past few years. korn (i call him monte) has been doing pretty well in the aus tourneys.

Yeh I can't stand that f***ing probe harass. So annoying with Terran, you should have seen the pro response I came up with after we got owned! :P

Unfortunately I'm a huge victim for early harass, it just ruins my early game - build collapses, everythign just goes off track as we saw there, after that shake up it was just a clusterf***.

I think I need to play more (ok, any!) 1v1 as my game is heavily team flavoured and even in a 4v4 when you're confronted with a 1v1 mini-game like that you just don't have the moxy to back it up.

sounds like we have similar playing styles hog

I'm not sure you can describe what I do as a 'style'. We win more team games than we lose though so I'm hpapy :P

like you're pretty set in your ways, if someone messes you up early it screws you up

i was similar in wc3, f***ing hero harassing would give me the s***s sometimes if i didn't build quick enough

and you don't like 1on1

I would argue that APM doesn't matter in the sense you are talking about.

APM comes largely and by far comes from just spamming for 99.9% of anybody who isn't a pro.

You can easily spike 300-500+ Actions Per Minute as Zerg in just re-creating an army for example, Hell, you can crack 300 APM in the first 2 seconds without damaging your game at all just by spamming s + hatchery hotkeyed.

Your actual Thoughtful Actions related to what's on the field I'd argue wouldn't extend much more than say 50-60 Actions per minute if you counted it in terms of say:

Building 5 Marines off 5 Raxes as Two actions - Which really, when talking hotkeys, Pressing "X" + "A" For example, 5 times, is really only one thoughtful action, and thus only one action that is going to influence anything on the field (i.e. producing 5 marines).

APM should be renamed "Keystrokes/Clicks Per Minute".

last edited by Mephz at 13:42:55 30/Jul/10

Sorry, the other reason I forgot to mention that APM is largely and by bulls***, is that even pro's spam at the start when there is literally NOTHING you can do, and it's evenly openly admitted this is solely "to keep average APM higher", or otherwise argued as "It's easier to maintain spamming actions at the start so that when you need that APM later, you're already at that pace and don't need to ramp up to it"

I believe a comment like that has been mentioned on a HD Invitationals Replay quite a few times.

You can't tell me you are maintaining 150 actions per minute of any thoughtful relevance while waiting for the first drone/scv/probe to build, and all the starting ones are mining automatically..

I also forgot, having 150 APM against a 60 APM player isn't going to help you if your game mechanics are just plain wrong.

last edited by Mephz at 13:54:24 30/Jul/10

Oh Yet another post:

SC2's APM is a lot lower than SC1's APM calculation (apparently) just in what is counted etc.

Here's an example of what your Pro APM should look like, if your fingers aren't moving like this and your screen like that, but you've got a high APM, then sorry but your APM is useless spam:

Korean Gamers 300 APM, video of keyboard/mouse + screen Starcraft 1

so i've started playing online

i've been giving the protos a go

they're kind of s*** though i don't think i'm using them right, like what the f*** do i do against a good battlecruisers? they don't see to have anything that can really deal with them like nothing i could mass to counter that?

from the few friendly FFA's ive had with mates, my carriers always owned battlecruisers.. not something you can quickly pump out tho.

Pave: high templars feedback ability are perfect for battlecruisers + use stalkers with blink and blink right under the c***s so they cant escape.

god zerg are f***ed

Just bought this yesterday so only about 3 hours into the campain. The thought of online terrfies me, I would get pwned.

god zerg are f***ed

Zerg ftw.

Just need to stay 1 expansion ahead at all times, fast expand is a must.

i reckon zerg will be the reason i stop playing this game

7 probe gas then
8 probe pylon WUT?

Isn't the starting food pool out of 11.
I'm flat out building probes until 9 just so I can afford the pylon. All while still pumping out the probes.

Am I missing something?

Im very very early in, just did the mission where you have to defend at night and destroy the bases during the day. failed miserably, was f***ing hard, even on normal!

Yeah playing that mission on Hard I had to lift my buildings off then collect minerals and spam marines during the day from the resources at the top of the map.

i usually open with 9 pylon, and gateway at 11 or 12. i find even if a zerg 6 pools me, i can have a zealot out and another half built when they get to my base. a bit of probe micro/assistance and im in good shape with 2 gateways producing zealots and a 3rd not far away. For a zerg to 6 pool, it assf***'s their economy so i tend to counter pretty early with 6-8 zealots.

I always 8 Pylon and then usually Gateway at 11, or 10 if it's Zerg and they're not 6 pooling. If you scout a Zerg and they've 6 pooled, it's good to have 8 Pylon, then two Gateways before you build any more Probes.

i usually open with 9 pylon, and gateway at 11 or 12. i find even if a zerg 6 pools me, i can have a zealot out and another half built when they get to my base. a bit of probe micro/assistance and im in good shape with 2 gateways producing zealots and a 3rd not far away. For a zerg to 6 pool, it assf***'s their economy so i tend to counter pretty early with 6-8 zealots.

I think early pool only works because of players afraid to get their workers out and micro... it really is a terrible strategy that's easy to defend and leaves the zerg economy in bad shape for midgame unless they have amazing micro on the lings.

I ALWAYS drop a hatch/fast expand prior to pool, it's just very hard to beat an equivalent skilled P/T with an equivalent economy.

Hi guys, im new to this forum so nice to meet you all.

As this is my first time playing this kind of game i got a lot out of this thread. 4gate rush is helping me through the bronze league and I have my 1v1 win loss to nearly positive now after completely failing at the start :)

Keep the strategies coming!

hey noob question....how do you hotkey buildings?

the same way you hotkey units... control + 1 (through to 9)

Just bought this yesterday so only about 3 hours into the campain. The thought of online terrfies me, I would get pwned.

Ditto. Im not to bad at the single player but online? f*** that!

Im very very early in, just did the mission where you have to defend at night and destroy the bases during the day. failed miserably, was f***ing hard, even on normal!

I find sometimes its best to go do other missions, get different hardware then comeback to it. ie get tanks or something if you haven't got them, then set them up to be able to long range blast at anyone attacking while your marines in bunkers defend against anything that gets close to your tanks.

I had to do this for the last Haven mission.

reapers ftw on that mission btw

Don't stress about online, you will eventually end up with a 50/50 ratio due to matchmaking so you end up winning just as much as losing regardless of skill.

Best to jump straight into the placement matches, get steamrolled 0/5 and learn a stack just by losing, get placed at 100 rank Bronze and work from there.

last edited by CHUB at 19:17:35 23/Aug/10

I learnt quite a bit from playing coop which is fun. Sometimes I accidentaly click on the competetive games instaed of going into coop and am suprised that I win those ladder games.

Play in ladder matches. When you get rolled, watch the replay and find out why, usually it is pretty obvious. Then next game adapt your strategy to resist what happened, don't build to totally counter it as that will open you up to other issues. Instead just be aware of it.

Learn to scout as soon as your able, it pays HEAPS to send 1 scv/drone/probe to check out the other guys base especially on maps where there is more then 1 start location.

Sometimes if the other guy is Terran and isn't paying attention you can attack his scv that is building a barracks or supply depo with your scout unit and destroy it before it goes up, slowing down his opening economy.

Make sure you scout around your base near the start of the game. A popular strategy in silver/gold league is to sneak a builder into the other base and build just out of sight. Protos tend to build a pylon then plasma turrets, Terran tend to build a barracks and bunker, while zerg will drop that tunnel thing.

If you counter it easily then they have wasted a bit of cash doing that and you should have the advantage, so push them. Check if they have an expansion and bust it up. If they don't, don't let them get one while you do.

Once past the early game there are heaps of options, scouting their base regularly will show you what they are building and you can counter it, try to prevent them from scouting you.

O and when playing against Zerg I've found that I have to assume they are going to zerg rush me unless my scout shows otherwise. I still have a little bit of trouble defending against a zerg rush with those little bomber bug things. I'm fine once I get out a siege tank with siege mode, but if they bust up my wall before then I've lost.


last edited by Tollaz0r! at 23:15:30 23/Aug/10

banshees, build lots of banshees

Don't forget about micro too, even at a very low level play.

Last night I was 100% sure I was done but I managed to beat 4 void rays with 4 mutas + 1 hydras only losing 1 muta, then went straight for his mineral line and got the gg.

People can get into the higher leagues with good build orders/strats but still have very low APM/micro ability so play smart and never give up.