I booked a soccer coaching course in September 2009 with the Football Federation of Victoria. They charged my credit card $135.

The course was immediately canceled and I was informed I should rebook, which I intended to do.

Due to this and that I couldn't find a course (it runs over two weekends, which is particularly hard to schedule).

Anyway, so just now (yep, 6 months later) I asked them to refund me because I can't find time.

The reply:

Hi Pinky,

Unfortunately we have a no refund policy as outlined on our payment form so we are unable to process a refund.

The funds can be used towards any coaching courses or related FFV event. If you are unable to attend a course yourself, perhaps someone else at your club can attend instead?

Regards,

Andrew

I'm so sick of companies that think they can pull this s***.

And I've had a really friggin bad week which doesn't help my attitude towards them. My reply:

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the quick reply.

FYI, I believe your policy contravenes the Fair Trading Act of 1999.

I still politely request a refund and also suggest that you read this Act and amend your policy.

Specifically, I believe in this case the customer has the right to request a refund for the service which was not provided as described.

Under this Act the customer has the right to choose a refund or they may choose to have credit as well - but I am choosing a refund because I do not have the time available to attend another course since I'm training/playing football now until September.

I hear what you are saying about sending someone else but I'm very time short with my current commitments to the club.

Kind regards,

Pinky

My subsequent email to consumer@justice.vic.gov.au :

Dear Consumer Affairs,

Can you please look at below and see if I qualify for a refund (as I think I do).

In September 2009 the Football Federation of Victoria (FFV) charged my credit card $135 for a coaching course that was immediately canceled.

I was informed immediately of the cancellation and told that I should rebook (which was what I intended to do).

Unfortunately due to circumstances I haven't been able to rebook, and I have contacted the FFV and requested a refund.

They have informed me that a refund is not possible under their 'no refund policy'.

It seems quite clear to me that I should be refunded in this instance.

Kind regards,

Pinky

Normally I wouldn't take this action. I hate complainers. But this is just so bloody stupid. I figure in this case that I can probably help a few more subsequent people if Consumer Affairs send the FFV some correspondence as well and the result is that they change their 'no refunds' policy.

Addendum: FYI this kind of behaviour is rife with computer parts and mobile phone retailers. In particularly when you buy a faulty product and they want you to put it back in for repair. You have the right to request a replacement item or refund on the spot - and Consumer Affairs deal with issues like this all the time.

Even if the follow up from Andrew is, "Ok, sorry, we will refund you immediately." Consumer Affairs will still be interested in this and will still contact the business.

yeah I've used the fair trade act to get a refund before, it's pretty clear cut
if its within 12 months of the transaction and you have reasonable grounds (ie you didnt just change your mind) and it hasn't cost them any money (ie it wasn't a special order item etc), you should be fine

It was my understanding that if it is in the terms and conditions (i.e refund policy) and issued prior to you accepting the purchase then not much can be done.

I'm basing this on my TPA uni subject which I did a few years ago... so I wouldn't substitute this as fact. (uni is a blur)

s*** effort on the companies behalf though. Let us know how you go!

EDIT: They have the exact same "terms and conditions" listed for the Moonlight Cinema with a 6 month period if the weather is bad. No refund. Don't know if they can get away with that.

nope, refund law states that you can't say "no refunds"

http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/CA256902000FE154/Lookup/CAV_Publications_Business_Information/$file/refundposter.pdf

Haha that pdf is sweet, Pinky just forward that poster to them and then say you're going to call your lawyer. (pronounced "loyer")

EDIT: would be better if they quote the exact paragraph from the refund act though so that there is no confusion. oh well.

Yeah let us know how you go. It's BS that companies roll out the no refund crap.

I await this decision. I requested a refund from CDWOW on Monday and they cancelled my order but I still have not seen a dime.

I have always found that small business’s tend to have s***ty refund policies. They see every refund as a loss without the foresight to see how refusing refunds affects their image in the long term.

If you can't deliver the goods or services as described then you must offer a full refund. No agreement hocus pocus can change this.

How the f*** this is a surprise is boggles my minds!

Im pretty sure, if it's stated no refunds...

Then you are s*** out of luck.

One of those, you've missed the "FINE PRINT" things heh

was it a deposit or booking fee?

Deposit can be refunded, but not a booking fee

I once ordered a camera from a site online, and when they didn't send it to me after constant harassment and after 3 weeks I asked for a refund. They then claimed that they would keep 10%, which it total bulls***. No camera = no money.

I was lucky though because the payment was done through paypal using my CC, so I could raise a dispute on the order. The camera turned up 2 days after I lodged the dispute with some written apology from the manager.

I'm on Pinky's side here too guys, but I'm interested if there is more of a grey area than most of you might initially think.

Pinky may have been entitled to a refund had he asked for one straight away... but if he booked a new time then maybe he's out of luck (because not being able to make a time legally precludes a refund).

I guess the question is, Pinky, did you book a new time immediately, or just not respond to the first instance of them saying to rebook??

As previously stated the fine print is often a load of s*** (not adhering to the fair trading act) and will not hold up in court, but because the amount is often so small these dodgy businesses often get away with it (definitely worth complaining over though). Saying no refunds in the fine print is akin to them saying they are allowed to rape you if you want a refund.

Terms and Conditions does not affect your Consumer Rights under Law.
If they did the Laws would be pointless.
They even gave you evidence of their refusal.

You are entitled to a refund. The product is unavailable.
It is your choice for Refund or Replacement not theirs.

Isn't there actually fines involved if you state no refunds? I remember reading that you can get a fine if you put up a sign in your shop that says no refunds but not sure about a ToS.

This is clearly a scam by Soccer Victoria.

...because who wants his bank manager to know he plays soccer when he isn't paying in cheques.

While it sucks, that pdf says

You are entitled to choose a refund OR repair OR exchange
OR credit if the products you’ve bought are:
• faulty
• significantly different to those shown or described to you
• not doing what they’re supposed to do.
When you buy, you should choose carefully. You don’t
automatically get a refund for simply changing your mind,
unless this was a condition of the sale or part of the seller’s
advertised policy.
Please keep

I don't really think pinky fits any of those 3 categories. He 'doesn't get a refund for changing his mind' which is essentially what he's done.

I got the impression they cancelled it on him. Now they're saying he has credit with them to do another course, which he doesn't want to do.

He 'doesn't get a refund for changing his mind' which is essentially what he's done.

Nah they cancelled his first appointment which means it's not doing what it's supposed to do.

Oh snap, missed that. But still, anything to make pinky post less.

Yeh they canceled on Pinky. Like I said, though, I can see a problem for Pinky if he initially signed up to a different session.

Victoria, the place to be?

Maybe not if these shonky operators er...operate in Victoria.

Pinky, I like how you write Fair Trade Act of 1999 instead of how Fair Trade Act 1999, minor quibble.

either way, even if it was an insignificant amount - throw up a stink and see where you land
what do you have to lose by saying your piece?

I chased backloads.com for f***ing ages and they actually called me a consumer terrorist by the end of it, but I got some cash out of them

http://www.lampnight.net/ <-- read about it on their website

sooking to Consumer Affairs instead of doing what most people do – just dropping the matter as not worth while from the start– its no one's fault after all

Hah I'd hope that if I contracted a mob to take s*** from one place to another and the s*** ended up damaged by the time it got there they wouldn't just say something like "oh well, no one's fault. it's not worth your while to even have a sook to consumer affairs?"

From what I can gather from their own website, their driver f***ed up and then they wanted to wash their hands of it. Those guys made themselves look like the main reason there IS a consumer affairs.

So that .pdf from Consumer Affairs Victoria - does that work up here? Or do we have Consumer Affairs Queensland with different rules?

Edit: Holy f***ing s***, Teq. That is the most glorious display unprofessional business conduct I have ever seen.

last edited by Pharcyde at 21:15:45 11/Mar/10

www.f***backloads.com <- the full story

tell your friends/family to watch out for this company - I'm quite serious

So he's gone sooking to Consumer Affairs instead of doing what most people do – just dropping the matter as not worth while from the start– its no one's fault after all, or ringing up and saying something like “ The driver had some bad luck, and look can you send us a couple $100 or and EB Games voucher for cleaning up the beds and that.”

haha.
theres so many things wrong with that statement.
No wonder so many businesses fail.

their description of the truckie makes him sound like that Pilot that landed on the Hudson River.

So that .pdf from Consumer Affairs Victoria - does that work up here? Or do we have Consumer Affairs Queensland with different rules?

Fair Trading QLD perhaps?

Of course :/.

Pick a proper f***ing sport poof!

if pinky booked a course on a specific date(s) and they cancelled then it's pretty clear imo that the service can't be provided as described - based on the limited info available.

ACCC/fair trading usually want to see that you've exhausted all possible internal dispute resolution processes (lol buzzwords) before getting involved though.

Nah I didn't sign up for another session, I have just done nothing.

I'm just angry at their stupid policy. Also, as far as 'small print' goes (@rawb) it doesn't matter. You can put anything you want in a contract - doesn't mean it's legal! You could put in an employment agreement that upon resignation the employee shall pay the employer $1mil dollars within seven working days. Good luck trying to defend that in court. I bet I could get an employee to sign the agreement still though!

This is absolutely clear cut. I'm just going through the process now to make them fix it for other people, because this sort of thing would have happened to a lot of people at the FFV.

@FraktuRe: the wording is for a 'product' but it also applies to a 'service' as well. Obviously you would write those sentences a bit differently if you were wording specifically for a service, but the same concepts apply.

My mate joined fitness first. Did their $75 3 personal trainers thing. He hurt himself badly a week later and was out of action for about 3 months. After that he tried getting the 3 training things rescheduled but it just never happened. Now he's cancelled his subscription and is trying to get the $75 back. I think he's going to be in for a ride with them..

Hey teq have you thought about using a blog theme with lightbox/gallery support showing images of the damage.

Best of luck with your $135 pinky

Fair Trading QLD perhaps?

Of course :/.

Sorry dude, I just re-read what I said and it made me sound like a tard.

What I was meaning was: Is the Fair Trading QLD position basically the same as the VIC one?

I'm just angry at their stupid policy. Also, as far as 'small print' goes (@rawb) it doesn't matter. You can put anything you want in a contract - doesn't mean it's legal! You could put in an employment agreement that upon resignation the employee shall pay the employer $1mil dollars within seven working days. Good luck trying to defend that in court. I bet I could get an employee to sign the agreement still though!

Pinky, I think rawb was completely agreeing with you. He was saying that using fine print to say no refunds is like saying they can literally rape you - it's nonsense.

Sounds pretty clear cut though that you should be entitled to the refund. Good luck and keep us informed!

I'll try address this when I get home as I've had a lot of experience with this, but no, the wkd and nsw laws are different to vic laws in thus regard.

Yeah I feel a bit guilty now. I'm at the end of a shocking week. Next week will improve.

Their policy is still stupid though.

what are you jewish?

you're entitled to it, it's yours

guilty for what? f*** that s***

make these f***ers pay

in blood if you have to

Hahaha, paveway. Yeah, I know that any guilt is irrational - I was just having such a f*** of a week and they copped my wrath. Better them than the missus I suppose :D

I think he's going to be in for a ride with them..

So are fitness first, universally, the biggest f***ing pirates around? Who the hell owns them and how have they gotten away with all their alleged s*** for so long? (not to thread derail).

I reckon their bread and butter must come from bringing in the fresh meat and burning them.. I predict franchise collapse and rich f***ers in elizabeth bay cackling hysterically about it!

So are fitness first, universally, the biggest f***ing pirates around? Who the hell owns them and how have they gotten away with all their alleged s*** for so long?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BC_Partners

Here is a description of them:

BC Partners is a private equity firm specializing in buyouts and acquisitions financing in Europe and the United States. The firm invests across all industries

Doesn't really sound like a group of people that care about customers, whether or not their businesses have any longevity, or have any clue about any particular industry other than padding their own pockets.

Better them than the missus I suppose :D

it's not like you beat up on a chick

she knows it's her fault

Update. Reply from Consumer Affairs (embedded links removed):

Dear Pinky

Thank you for your enquiry lodged through the Consumer Affairs Victoria (CAV) website.

You can find advice about your consumer rights about refunds on the CAV website. This information can help you decide whether you would be entitled to an exchange, repair, refund or store credit for the product or services you have purchased.

If the trader is unwilling to negotiate with you regarding this matter, you should write a formal letter to them. For assistance about what to include in your letter please see the Sample Letters of Complaint provided on the CAV website.

To discuss further options available to you or clarify the information, please call CAV on 1300 558 181.

Please note that the information contained in this email is of a general nature only and should not be regarded as a substitute for legal or professional advice.

Yours sincerely

ENQUIRIES BRANCH | CONSUMER AFFAIRS VICTORIA
Department of Justice | 113 Exhibition St Melbourne VIC 3000 | GPO Box 123 Melbourne VIC 3001 | p. 1300 558 181 | f. 03 8684 6001| e. consumer@justice.vic.gov.au | www.consumer.vic.gov.au

(available Monday-Friday, 9am-5pm except public holidays)

The sample letter of complaint is almost identical word for word to what I have written to them originally.

^ canned reply

Pinky they're pretty busy, I know my mother has at least 3 actions pending with consumer affairs. Tends to be when you build a house using contractors when s*** goes wrong they NEVER want to fix it no matter how clear the contract was when they took the money.

Just keep pressing both ends. Don't let this s*** happen, I don't, it's how I was raised.

Oh and for most people's information - you can't change law just because you tried making an unlawful agreement in the terms of purchase.

Speaking of fitness first, the part in the contract where it says if you cancel you will be charged the full amount, is that legal?

Yeah, I've just cut and pasted my email and put it in a letter. Will post it on the way home. All in a day's work for me as an office bitch.

Speaking of fitness first, the part in the contract where it says if you cancel you will be charged the full amount, is that legal?

It's very contentious. Nice issue for Consumer Affairs.

As my lawyer says, half of a contract is 'bluff & intimidation' - you never know what will stand up in court, because hardly anything is ever tested in court in these kinds of contracts.

We had a long discussion about it because I was getting our employment agreements redone and he put in there a 2 month notice period if the employee wants to leave our company which I thought was pretty ridiculous, so I questioned why he put that in there.

Speaking of fitness first, the part in the contract where it says if you cancel you will be charged the full amount, is that legal?

IANAL; but I'm pretty sure since that's pretty 'unfair' it may not be enforcable.

if u buy a cake and eat half a cake are you allowed to return the rest?

Speaking of fitness first, the part in the contract where it says if you cancel you will be charged the full amount, is that legal?

your are not entitled to a refund if you just change your mind or unwilling to use a service

last edited by myWhiteWolf at 23:35:12 12/Mar/10

bumping this thread to find out what happened pinky (and to get my question answered).

if u buy a cake and eat half a cake are you allowed to return the rest?

I love analogies. A better one would be if you agree to buy a cake a day for 6months and after the first month you change your mind, do you still get charged even though they haven't made you the cakes for the 5 other months?

your are not entitled to a refund if you just change your mind or unwilling to use a service

this has nothing to do with refund. I haven't paid 6 months worth of cakes yet, but if i opt out at half way, according to the contract I have to pay for the the rest. Even though I haven't used their service.

The update is they are ignoring me. The problem for them is that I love a personal challenge and I am still able to find free time.

I'm only posting my official written letter today. I wrote it the other day but didn't print it. It's good to go now though, so probs have another update in a week or two from now.

The answer to your question is that the Fitness First policy is very disputable - if it's affected you personally I would dispute it ASAP.

I await this decision. I requested a refund from CDWOW on Monday and they cancelled my order but I still have not seen a dime.

This is why I don't use CDWOW and instead use GAME UK, I have to pay postage but their system is so much better, money is not taken untill your order is dispatched. But I should add that the 2 orders I have canceled via CDWOW were refunded in full.

this has nothing to do with refund. I haven't paid 6 months worth of cakes yet, but if i opt out at half way, according to the contract I have to pay for the the rest. Even though I haven't used their service.

This is what telcos do with mobile phone contracts... I have always just taken it up the tailpipe assuming it was legal for them to do it.

This is what telcos do with mobile phone contracts... I have always just taken it up the tailpipe assuming it was legal for them to do it.

I have a mate who has fought telcos on these issues and he's been very successful in getting what he wants, so I wouldn't just cop it mr hardware style, take it to the man!

Also, I had to take an issue to the Energy Ombudsman once and they solved it immediately without any further input. I collected all records, dated them, scanned them and wrote a letter and scanned that too - whacked it all in order in one PDF file and emailed it to the Ombudsman.

Basically two energy companies were rorting the privatised elec provider situation we have here in VIC. That was for my friend's wife though, not me. She's not so crash hot at English so I offered my charitable services.

They cant win.
Go find a barrister and then bill them for the legal fees.
You already have enough evidence.

nah just kidnap their children and refuse their release until you get your refund.

Winrar.

Hi there Pinkbits!

There is no time limit on when a person can undertake a course, so you are more than welcome to complete a course at season’s end, or alternatively we also run courses on weeknights if that suits you better. Our coaching course calendar can be found at the following link: http://www.footballfedvic.com.au/content.aspx?file=7250|19616k

To our knowledge we are not breaching the fair trading act as this has been company policy for quite some time, not just for FFV but many other organisations, however, because the course was cancelled by FFV, we will grant you a refund on this occasion back to the credit card that you had paid with. Please allow 72 hours for this to hit your credit card.

Kind regards,

Andrew

They blinked.

good work pinkster. way to stick it to the man!

Nice work, love this line though.

To our knowledge we are not breaching the fair trading act as this has been company policy for quite some time, not just for FFV but many other organisations,

So because they have been doing it for a long time and other people do it, its legal? wrong answer.

Good you got your refund. Too many people just take it when dealt with things like this, not me though.

Yeah I was waiting to see what you guys think before I commented - but I agree with you, he faltered because he wasn't so sure anymore since I was quite aggressive (but hopefully not over-the-top aggressive).

Aggressive?

I still politely request a refund and also suggest that you read this Act and amend your policy.

You beast!

:P

Good work :)

yeah thats pretty weak, I got called a consumer terrorist after months of emails/phone calls/letters demanding my money

yeah hows that going teq

You should post on a forum that is used by other people like yourself that would have also been inconvenienced by the rescheduling.
I doubt you were the only one complaining.

faceman most of the time you seem to not actually be talking to anyone, just talking.

it's bizarre

yeah hows that going teq

www.f***backloads.com

nice work pinkeh.

you taken those r-tards to court yet teq?

Dude you're f***ed. Apparently Garry's a really top bloke!
It's astounding that they created an anti BJ website in response to yours.
Pretty epic saga.

Pinky, you were being assertive, not aggressive. teq was being aggressive :O

^ what BillyH said.

I was trying to be assertive, so thanks, I guess it worked ;-) It's a fine line.

lol tequila, seriously - didn't fade give you a good contact? It's small claims court all the way.

didn't fade give you a good contact? It's small claims court all the way

I think he didn't turn up at the hearing to show them he meant business ;)

It's astounding that they created an anti BJ website in response to yours.

Haha the anti BJ web site makes me not want to use them even more than f***backloads.com does.

The anti BJ web site is clearly a violation of privacy. They posted your residential address :-/

old addy but still, they did post private details that they shouldn't have
I did end up getting some cash out of them

I only created that website because they threatened trog regarding my posting a thread about them (way back when it was originally going down)
they said take it down or else, yet the thread was ancient and hadn't had a reply for months .. so they should have let sleeping dogs lie
it did show up if you google backloads though, thats why they're pissed :)

i suppose backloads is hoping that if you google backloads now that teq's website named f***backloads.com doesn't come up if the word of the removalist company in brisbane queensland and victoria named backloads is entered into the search engine.

I heard they take it up the backload

Brett johnson!

Ripples

[img-brett johnson]

If you can't deliver the goods or services as described then you must offer a full refund. No agreement hocus pocus can change this. How the f*** this is a surprise is boggles my minds!

That didnt stop telstra wholesale charging my ISP $50 when they connected the phone line to the wrong building on my property (at their own fault) then wanted more money to reconnect it to the correct building. I flatly refused to pay and my ISP waivered the fee for me.

Telstra are a$$holes

I heard that Steak & Brett Johnson Day was last week. Anyone get a Brett Johnson?

weedy, sounds like that's what your ISP was telling you. Maybe they stuffed up (hence why they would 'waive' the second fee)

nah if telstra did that to any of my customers i'd eat that cost and chase telstra myself
i honestly believe telstra are difficult and f*** up bills on purpose in their favor because lots of people just wouldn't bother chasing them up