Descriptive thread title.

http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opinion/politics/how-rudd-the-dud-dropped-australia-in-the-alphabet-soup-20100221-ontz.html

Great article.

Bring on an election.

It took the previous government 10 years to dismantle the $96 billion debt mountain that it inherited. It took Rudd one year to build it back up again.

If true that is pretty f***in scary.

some of its cliams are a wank, they report a heap of things as fact without saying what data they used to deduce it. reporting for reporting sake and should be ignored.

The kruddle is on GNW tonight - going to be a laugh a minute.

If true that is pretty f***in scary.

Are you living under a rock?

The debt is up to 300-400 billion or so isn't it?

last edited by CHUB at 14:01:21 22/Feb/10

I don't follow aussie politics so yes. I have been.

It took the previous government 10 years to dismantle the $96 billion debt mountain that it inherited. It took Rudd one year to build it back up again.

I love how people always say this without any context whatsoever, one government was during 10 years of boom, the other one was during one of the biggest worldwide financial collapes ever.

And Labor in QLD managed to f*** both of them up...

As for the article, it's all technically true, but without context it's rather useless. Even the title is Bias... but if it can get bogans to not vote for Rudd, i'm all for it.

I love how people always say this without any context whatsoever, one government was during 10 years of boom, the other one was during one of the biggest worldwide financial collapes ever.

While this is true, was the GFC a blank cheque for the Government, or should they be held accountable for their reaction to the GFC? Did we get value for our splurge?

Given Australia's unique trade position with China, was it necessary, or could a more measured approach have achieved similar results even if we dipped into a technical recession without so much cash?

didn't you hear? krudd caused the GFC

And Labor in QLD managed to f*** both of them up...

Everyone knows labor QLD suck, its just that liberal/National sucked more during the same time. Pretty sure shes gonna get the arse next time though.

This should supply infi with at least enough rhetoric to get him through to the next election.

Not only the stupid amount of spending, but the retarded way they went about spending it. It was like those charities, you donate $1 but only 23 cents make it to the people that actually need it.

Not to mention the colossal f***up some of the other stimulus implementations have been (Re: Insulation etc)

im pretty sure the kruddler isnt done leading australia yet, im sure hes going to turn around some of those things!

i see that they have stopped the insulation deal already, no doubt because 99% of australia is insulated!

hurrah!

He's not done!@? You mean we are going to go into MORE DEBT!

and more dead bodies implementing the stimulus!

Everyone knows labor QLD suck, its just that liberal/National sucked more during the same time. Pretty sure shes gonna get the arse next time though.

It was more a National-led coalition previous to that, but yeah they were basically crims.

Labor has been more useless, just not as corrupt. Not sure what was worse.

The real problem with Queensland is that oppositions and minor parties are effectively redundant, except in the very rare case of a hung parliament. The very root of this problem is that there is no upper house at all in Queensland, thanks to a seriously dodgy bit of work in the 1920s. (Essentially the proposal to abolish the upper house was knocked back by a referendum, but at the time the senate wasn't elected, rather appointed. So an agreeable upper house was appointed and they agreed to vote themselves out of existence. The government at the time viewed it as undemocratic, which was true, as it was unelected, but voted to abolish it entirely rather reform it.)

No upper house means no "house of review", dodgy laws are pushed through simply because they have the numbers in the lower house. The federal senate as an example is tilted by the use of party quotas, so its harder to "stack". Also, swinging voters have a tendency tend to put an each way bet.

It means that governments effectively dominate the political process. Oppositions are emasculated and their power is limited to the occasional sound-bite on the 6pm news, usually after the government announces some stupid policy. Say, selling off all the state owned assets in a fire-sale.

No government has the balls to bring in an upper house, because it would take away the absolute power that they have. Yet it leads to terrible, absolutely s***e government. A good government needs a good opposition.

last edited by neffo at 15:22:24 22/Feb/10

Alcopops = FAIL
I.Filter = FAIL

incidentally check out the big anti-filter demonstration in Sydney.
http://tinyurl.com/yau9cov

With numbers like that surely the Guv' must take notice !

last edited by FaceMan at 15:26:20 22/Feb/10

Spends too much.

he was spending that money on me

Eats ear wax.

i scratch my nuts and sniff my fingers afterwards.

Looks like a poindexter.

jh

Spook's retorts make me laugh and cry at the same time.

Alcopops = FAIL
I.Filter = FAIL

pedo alert

what f***ing sucks about that alcopop thing

none of the prices on anything came down to anywhere near what they used to be or at all after the tax was removed

f***ing c*** bottle-o's

Keep up paveway, the tax was passed mid last year.

Is it true Rudd is going on Good News Week?

hahahaha

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Yeah, sounds like a disaster.

Edit: It's all lies:

Join Paul McDermott along with team members Mikey Robins & Claire Hooper as they decipher, dissect, deconstruct & hilariously misrepresent the news from the week. Tonight's guests include: Tom Gleeson, Stewart Francis, Corinne Grant, Tom Ballard & Tripod.

last edited by mission at 16:02:00 22/Feb/10

He got smashed in the Q&A session with 17-year-olds. The poor guy thought they actually liked him.

Liberals would have f***ed up just as good.

no doubt because 99% of australia is insulated!

and now electrified too. when garrett said they would "change it all" when Labor got in, I thought he was referring to more government debt and taking industrial relations back 50 years. in fact he was talking about electrifying perfectly good homes and shonky handouts to unlicensed insulators.

I'm inclined not to vote Labor next election due to Conroy and anti-nuclear energy policy, but most of that opinion piece is just pointless spin.

Given Australia's unique trade position with China, was it necessary, or could a more measured approach have achieved similar results even if we dipped into a technical recession without so much cash?

I suppose we'll never know will we. Its certainly not universally accepted that the government "overspent" to avoid recession.

have a read of all the comments on that article - just goes to show how much the aussie public got duped. They all ran scared from the small spider that was workchoices and ran blindly into a bear trap that is krudd.

I think the issue is the money isn't spent yet. Another $30 billion or so to go.

Hrm maybe I got it wrong but I thought tonight was S03E04 and there was this trailer on the GNW site.

I can't help but think this will do more for GNW's ratings than it will for Kev's.

Just another show for him to turn up on, touch his glasses and say, "You know what?"

I dunno I just copied off the Channel 10 site :/

http://ten.com.au/tvguide_synopsis.htm?id=Good_News_Week_3418365.xml

and now electrified too.

mmmm, so warm and toasty!

Just another show for him to turn up on, touch his glasses and say, "You know what?"

And he "makes no apologies for that".

last edited by neffo at 17:27:32 22/Feb/10

Pro and anti government propaganda is loltastic. I love it, what I love more though is how up in arms either sides supporters get swearing black and blue that whoever they are a fanboy of would have done a much better job after they've been voted out plenty of times before for f***ing up just as bad.

Seeing as both governments seemed to have/had hard-ons for increasing the population what's so bad about the migration? Is it only OK if they're little white babies?

Syco, everyone knows they'd have the White Australia policy back if they could

Just another one of those cool things you could do but now can't, like ride in a crane bucket etc

< /troll >

Heh, I'm surprised they posted this comment :

"It took 10 years for the Howard government to dismantle the $96 Billion debt mountain it inherited."
Says who Paul Sheehan ? You?
Stephen Mayne,founder of Crikey and The Mayne Report actually RAN against Peter Costello in his own seat of Higgins in 2007 on this very issue and says nothing of the sort.
The figure paid back by the Howard Government according to Stephen Mayne was $46 Billion which STILL left a debt of $50 Billion.
Furthermore,Stephen Mayne worked out that under the Howard government ,Credit Card debt went from $5 Billion to $45 Billion between 1996-2007,Foreign debt went from $196 Billion to $600 Billion between 1996-2007 and Housing/Mortgage debt went form $250 Billion to $750 Billion between 1996-2007.
Also Alan Kohler says in his article 'Hey,big ,big spender whats the next trick" published in The Age in 2006 ,that of the $177 Billion commodities boom windfall enjoyed by the Howard government, some $146 Billion of it was spent on tax cuts and vote catching middle class welfare.
Kohler described Howard's big spend as "gloriously irresponsible" and " amazingly profligate".Such action said Kohler " has raised the likelihood of large deficits and a budget crisis in future".Said Kohler also that "despite all the talk about the need to invest in the nations infrastructure,almost none of it was."
The Howard government's economic record didn't do this country any favors either buster so why dont you say so?

You know, I hope all of that guys (the one who wrote the article, not the one I quoted) figures check out or it might totally and utterly disprove there being anything wrong with Rudds leadership, just like a possibly botched figure totally disproved any human involvement in climate change in the eyes of the right.

a lot of the figures quoted have nothing to do with the government and have more to do with people's belief in themselves (debt for expansion)
so i don't really see it as all that damning at all

Pfft, $96 billion.

Queensland owes somewhere in the order of $80 billion. Add another $7billion a year in interest and deficits.

People who blame Garret for d******* insulators electrocuting themselves because they were too lazy to check for a wire before stapling the s*** out of some conductive foil are retards. It's called natural selection.

Rudd is a dud for many reasons but I wouldn't say his handling of the economy is a major contributor to the fact. Not that he did a brilliant job but I wouldn't expect the opposition to have done better.

He's a dud because he appointed Steven Conroy, because he is pushing his carbon trading idea, because he has made good on a grand total of f*** all election promises. Mostly he is a dud because he isn't a stud, Abott on the other hand you have to lock up your wives when he's around.

f***ing nancy country this place is.
I tolerate it so i can get enough money to retire in exotic asia and marry my 18 yr old thai girl, and society wont look down upon me for it! freeeeeeeeeeedoooooooommmmmmmmmm

Abott on the other hand you have to lock up your wives when he's around.

That f***er tried to have me arrested as a Terrorist by the AFP. Glad the AFP know him for the wanker he is.

^

wat

i see that they have stopped the insulation deal already, no doubt because 99% of australia is insulated!

nah, i don't think thats why they stopped the deal.

I wish Kevin Rudd would surprise me, and grow some balls and sack Peter Garrett.

It just goes to show, you can be an activist your whole life, like Garret, and ask, why the government isn't doing this and that. But finally gets put in the position of power, It isn't as easy as it sounds.

gonna go live in colombia, laters

People who blame Garret for d******* insulators electrocuting themselves because they were too lazy to check for a wire before stapling the s*** out of some conductive foil are retards. It's called natural selection.

Negative. The type of foil that has been allowed to be installed, is not designed for retro-fitting into a house that has been built. That particular foil insulation, that was used on 30,000 + Homes, is for New build homes only and is to be installed inbetween the tiles/tin and the roof trusses. NOT Laid ontop of the ceiling like is. This is where Peter Garret f***ed up, he should've read the fine print, and excluded this type of insulation from the scheme and specified that only Fibre Glass insulation or any Non Conductive insulation be used.

Even before this scheme come out, i was strongly apposed to installing this foil s***.

as an electrician, i have to crawl into these roof cavities, and deal with this insulation. It's unbelievably dangerous in my opinion and unsafe for me. for starters i cannot see where the timber is so how can i stand on it safely. I could stand on a cable, that is underneath this insulation, damage it and liven the insulation up. Once the insulation livens up the entire roof it will touch something else conductive, i.e. copper pipes. More people will die from this.

Here is what needs to happen, every house with this foil, needs to be tested. and once proven safe, it needs to be removed and replaced with non-conductive insulation.

If Peter Garrett, signed this agreement, without knowing about this BASIC problem, that every electrician, and anyone with a bit of common sense knows about. Of course he should be jailed.

I'm a licensed electrician, and if i kill someone, i go to jail. Why shouldn't he?

Because once we test the insulation, it becomes our problem. If someone in 5 years time, installs something a whirly bird, some sort of skylight, and livens that insulation up. I am liable.

Politically, this is where unions piss me off, cause unions have their hands in labors pockets and vice versa, the electrical union, is gutless as f***, this is where all electrical contractors shouhld band together against the government and refuse to test the foil insulation, and leave it as it is. It must be replaced. But it wont happen. However, im sure it would if the Liberals were in power.

It was Climate Change that caused that whole debacle.
Garret is gone.
Gone by the end of the week.
Its hurting the party.

Not the first head to roll from Climate Change and it wont be the last.

I don't follow aussie politics so yes. I have been.

and i was in london.

People who blame Garret for d******* insulators electrocuting themselves because they were too lazy to check for a wire before stapling the s*** out of some conductive foil are retards. It's called natural selection.

Everything that acetame said in response to this comment, plus the following:

Peter Garrett's department was warned multiple times that the insulation was being installed incorrectly or not at all by dodgy operators. The whole scheme was designed in such a way that it was easy for dodgy mobs to rort the system because the money was collected directly from the government by the installers, not as a rebate by the home owner. There are reports of installers rocking up to as many sites as possible and installing some insulation and just leaving the rest of the materials uninstalled in the roof cavity just so they could collect the cash and move onto the next job as soon as possible. There doesn't appear to be any inspection process and approval before the grant could be collected.

I was skeptical that Peter Garrett should go when this first surfaced, but it's now become obvious that this scheme was incredibly poorly planned & implemented and as such if the minister refuses to resign he should be sacked.

great post acetame.

to put things in perpsective:

when the whole kero baths thing in the nursing home happened under Bronwyn Bishop as then Minister for Ageing, the Man of Steel got rid of her. Now she wasn't even liable for failing to act, she hadn't been warned of these horrible incidences, she had no idea they occurred until after the fact. They simply happened on her watch and she had to go.

Garrett has full knowledge of this debacle in his Department for 10 month and failed to act. He simply has to resign or be sacked.

lol

X Y Z Generations X, Y and Z They will be stuck with the bill.

well it's nothing to laugh about really!

Garrett has full knowledge of this debacle in his Department for 10 month and failed to act. He simply has to resign or be sacked.

The electrocutions?

It was Climate Change that caused that whole debacle.

Yeah, he should listen to the bloggers and not believe in it! What's science know anyway?

infi: Garrett has a penis public presence with er.. someone that matters

Credit Card debt went from $5 Billion to $45 Billion between 1996-2007, Housing/Mortgage debt went form $250 Billion to $750 Billion between 1996-2007.

What the f*** has these debt's got to do with the government? Stupid.

Clearly the government should have been paying them off.

What the f*** has these debt's got to do with the government? Stupid.

consumer confidence has something to do with the Govt.. or something :/


I've never understood this because I am the only person in my family who doesn't leech work for the Govt at some level. these people are very interesting to view - though personally I find 99% have no f***ing soul after hearing their stories


I find it interesting coming from a family full of local/federal and state Govt peeps that live in every part of this nation and yet none of them vote...


except Dad - he's Liberal for lyfe... he pretends to be a senior at his Church too though ya have to if you live in a small Aussie city and expect your career to go anywhere.


people are stupid


meh - each to their own

last edited by koopz at 22:53:59 22/Feb/10

The electrocutions?

No of this dodgy installation method that should never have been granted government money. read a newspaper!

i work for the govt and it'd be within my best interests to vote labor, they cut far less public service jobs and are bigger pushovers when the mild union we have come knocking for a payrise

but i'll love liberal every time cos i'm not about whats in it for me right now, i can see the bigger picture.

I think the bigger picture doesn't involve Labour or Liberal at all hardy

haven't seen it all first hand though eh

No of this dodgy installation method that should never have been granted government money. read a newspaper!

I guess, DAMN KRUDD/PGARETT FOR INSTALLING IT ALL WRONG! You know any way it went down there'd be bitching. If he provided this and there was too much demand for the supply of installers there'd be screams, if he increased the cost to Australia by providing training for new people there'd be screams, if he made each one be inspected there'd be screams. The blame doesn't lay anywhere near the dodgy make-a-quick-buck operators.

And hey, I resent that, I do order a paper it's just it's the SMH, I need something to use when I run out of loo paper, I probably should read it first. If I read half the papers around I'd probably believe humans don't hurt the environment whatsoever and sleep easier at night I guess.

What if he hadn't gone ahead with something so ill-considered at all? Would there have been screams? Noooooooooope.

when the whole kero baths thing in the nursing home happened under Bronwyn Bishop as then Minister for Ageing, the Man of Steel got rid of her.

Thats what Kevin Rudd lacks. Some balls. I think the reason they even consider keeping garrett, is because of who he is, he is an environment activist, and makes Labor look "Green". I hope they keep him, cause hopefully it will turn off more voters this election. honestly, there entire front bench is a disgrace, Garrett, Wong, Swan, Gillard... When i hear these names, i burst blood veins in my neck.

i work for the govt and it'd be within my best interests to vote labor, they cut far less public service jobs and are bigger pushovers when the mild union we have come knocking for a payrise

people seem to forget the cycle, that when labor is in power, they piss all the money away that sends Taxes up to pay for their failures. Ultimately nothing good comes from it, and the country is still in the same shape it was in if not worse.

Imagine if the Liberals were in power for a solid 30 years. Australia would become an economic super power. Business would flourish. Workers would be looked after by the flourishing businesses. Infrastructure would be first class. Hospitals, Roads, Schools, would have so much more money to spend.

Once again, lets blame the govt for dodgy individuals behaviour. Just because some twits were getting greedy and cutting corners, the govt is at fault. Specifically, Peter Garrets fault. Our national expert on insulation.

*rolls eyes*

I loved this other story I read the other day. The wife of a guy who worked in construction, and died of skin cancer, got a 6 figure payout from workcover. Now I don't begrudge the poor woman some cash, her hubby just died... but seriously. The guy should have put on a f***ing hat, and if he didn't, then he gets skin cancer and dies. I imagine that the govt is responsible for skin cancer? And they will need to tell employers to put sunscreen on their brain dead employees, cause they're incapable of looking after themselves.

This sets up a bitchin' precedent as well. Watch the sunburnt kick down the door at workcover now!

This stuff seriously has to stop. People are becoming less and less responsible for their own behaviour.

"Oh sorry I broke your jaw, I was drunk"
"I was depressed"
"I was high on crack"
"My employer didn't tell me the big hot thing in the sky could burn me and give me cancer."
"I wasn't aware that metal insulation could conduct electricity cause the govt didn't tell me so."

*shakes fist*

We're going to be brainless blobs like in Wall-E!

Once again, lets blame the govt for dodgy individuals behaviour. Just because some twits were getting greedy and cutting corners, the govt is at fault. Specifically, Peter Garrets fault. Our national expert on insulation.


*rolls eyes*

yes, you blame the individuals for dodgy behaviour. you also blame the goverment for putting in place the incentive structure which encouraged the dodgy behaviour. both parties are liable.

you can't seriously be suggesting the government has no responsibility for it all..?

somewhat related tangent: do you agree with consumer protection laws?

Acetame, as an electrician do you believe that Peter Garret is responsible for dodgey work practices and unsafe materials used in the insulation industry for well over 15 years? Because as an electrician you should be aware that none of this s*** is news to anyone who works in the building industry.

Also, although some operators may have been incorrectly using anti-con, there is in fact a foil backed cardboard that works as an insulation by using the air trapped between the ceiling and the foil covering. The stuff I've seen was only single sided (only top side was conductive) but I'm sure there is probably some double sided stuff that could potentially liven up some copper pipes.

Also as someone who works in the building industry you're probably aware that the only time the Government implements safety regulations is when enough people have died. Which is why you are required to earth a plumbers installation because 30 years ago enough plumbers had died from live pipes to see some action taken.

Please don't feed the knee jerkers and Liberal witch hunters. This is an issue that has been around for a long time and has likely been brought to the attention of many a bureaucrat over the years. The Minister for the Environment is not to blame for dodgey work practices in the building industry.

Ok, everyone in this thread is missing the point, again. gg qgl (ausgames.com/forums).

There are two questions

1. Who is at fault for the electrocutions, faulty installations etc?

Clearly the installer bears direct fault.

2. Should Garrett resign?

I would argue yes for three reasons.
NECA and the electrical trades could have sworn that alfoil insulation in existing homes is an unacceptable high risk, in fact, the materials are not designed for that purpose.

Secondly, the Department had advice from Minters regarding the proposed rollout, and suitable checks and balances to ensure that works remained safe. Minters ultimately concluded that it would be extremely expensive to sufficiently monitor, audit and supervise the scheme. That scheme went ahead without the recommended protections.

Lastly and most importantly, the doctine of responsible government. Ministers are responsible for the actions of their departments, whether they had direct knowledge or not. Ultimately, someone has to be responsible to the people, and in our system that means the ministers and cabinet are responisble to the lower house.

Kevin Rudd talking tough to ... a 16 year old girl? wtf?



Every now and then a hint of the real guy sort of slips through.

http://operationeveryday.com/abandonthread.gif

people seem to forget the cycle, that when labor is in power, they piss all the money away that sends Taxes up to pay for their failures. Ultimately nothing good comes from it, and the country is still in the same shape it was in if not worse.

Imagine if the Liberals were in power for a solid 30 years. Australia would become an economic super power. Business would flourish. Workers would be looked after by the flourishing businesses. Infrastructure would be first class. Hospitals, Roads, Schools, would have so much more money to spend.

You were doing fine till this pile of drivel.

HAHA domino that is the best thing i've seen in a while

The libs need a decent marketing/advertising team to get all these fails out in the public consciousness. The great population (idiots) just forget about all these epic fails and huge wastes of money.

yes, you blame the individuals for dodgy behaviour. you also blame the goverment for putting in place the incentive structure which encouraged the dodgy behaviour. both parties are liable.

you can't seriously be suggesting the government has no responsibility for it all..?

I think I know where you're going here. The govt made it really lucrative to put in insulation, so a bunch of people jumped on the insulation train to make some quick cash and started cutting corners all over the place.

You can't seriously be suggesting that the govt is responsible for peoples greed?

somewhat related tangent: do you agree with consumer protection laws?

Yes. But please don't start telling me it's the same thing. You're going from the govt being responsible for incentivising insulation and "making" people do stupid things, to protecting people from dodgy practices.

That argument only works if you believe that they were responsible in the first place.

I was talking to a sparky today and he agrees with what Fade said almost to the word.
Clearly you guys need to appeal to a higher authority.
Today Tonight or ACA.

You can't seriously be suggesting that the govt is responsible for peoples greed?

You're still not getting it.

Fault != responsibilty when you're a minister.

The fault lies with the installer.

The responsibility for the actions of the department in failing to adaquately supervise the scheme, especially in consequence of the Minter Ellison advice, lies with the Minister. The Minister should resign.

I think I know where you're going here. The govt made it really lucrative to put in insulation, so a bunch of people jumped on the insulation train to make some quick cash and started cutting corners all over the place.

You can't seriously be suggesting that the govt is responsible for peoples greed?

The government, as you said, created the whole basis for it by creating 30 fold (I think that was the number I saw) increase in the scale of the market. They commissioned a report to see what the risks of this would be, they got a response that said, "it'll go to s***, properly". They ignored that and went ahead with it anyway.

Regardless, the only reason Garrett has kept his job is because Rudd can't stand to lose face at the moment. I would suspect if the polls were different he'd have been handed a luger already. (I can't even remember what Joel Fitzgibbon did, but I don't think it was as much of a f*** up.)

I still don't get how you think the minister for the environment is responsible for something that has been going on in the insulation industry for 15+ years? He has nothing to do with regulating the building industry and making sure safe work practices are adopted. How is it the fault of the scheme when there has been no regulation in the industry, ever? This isn't a new problem that simply occurred because the Govt had some dollars to spend, it was simply exasperated by it.

I totally agree that the whole scheme was a debacle from the start, but I don't agree in the slightest that Garret is in anyway shape or form responsible for any deaths or burnt down houses due to dodgy operators. In fact, the most appalling part is that they don't even have to be a dodgy operator in order to burn down your house as big companies like Cool 'n' Cozey will do a good job of that. I also think that Krudd has the burden of responsibility here, it's his stimulus and he was happy to tout the insulation idea when it wasn't a 3 day dead dog. If it's simple mismanagement of a really bad idea then he's where the buck stops.

What needs to happen is the use of blow in insulation and staple down conductive paper insulation needs to be outlawed, immediately. It should have happened 15 years ago when the first house was burnt down or the first staple happy insulator killed themselves. The politics of the whole situation can get f***ed.

I totally agree that the whole scheme was a debacle from the start, but I don't agree in the slightest that Garret is in anyway shape or form responsible for any deaths or burnt down houses due to dodgy operators.

No one is calling for Garrett to be held criminally responsible for the insulation deaths or loss of property. They're calling for him to resign because of the bungled scheme that was designed by him and his department that amounted to a massive waste of taxpayers money and that didn't have enough checks and balances to prevent fly by nighters swooping in to claim the cash.

I think I know where you're going here. The govt made it really lucrative to put in insulation, so a bunch of people jumped on the insulation train to make some quick cash and started cutting corners all over the place.

You can't seriously be suggesting that the govt is responsible for peoples greed?

read fade's posts (he's already articulated it far better than i could :D), comprehend, get back to me.

Yes. But please don't start telling me it's the same thing. You're going from the govt being responsible for incentivising insulation and "making" people do stupid things, to protecting people from dodgy practices.

That argument only works if you believe that they were responsible in the first place.

the reason i asked is i was trying to get a rough gauge on how much you feel a government should interfere in private transactions.

you are against institutions/government from protecting people from their own stupidity. you are perfectly happy with a government interfering in transactions to protect a consumer from a retailer/business. yet you fall back on 'caveat emptor' when it comes to protecting consumers from a dodgy, potentially harmful/lethal, insulation installation that has been mandated and paid for by the federal government.

does not compute.

deadlyf: your posts are usually right on the money, but you seem to be missing the point in this thread. dahzel summed it up perfectly.

Then why are people making an issue over the whole foil paper insulation electrocutions and house fires in parliament and the media and associating that with Peter Garret?

If it's a stupid f***ing idea to implement a stimulus package without any insurance that the money spent goes towards the desired goal, or to decide that insulation is environmentally friendly because it cuts a few kilowatts a year off of peoples energy usage without actually doing any research into the environmental impact of producing said insulation. Then yes I do agree, the whole thing is a stinking pile of horse s***. Personally I blame Krudd for it but if you want to go after Garret then be my guest. To be claiming however, that Peter Garret needs to resign in the same breath as saying how dangerous and reckless a lot of insulators have behaved and the materials they have used, is pure and simple dishonest politikin' and you can go and get f***ed for supporting it.

Then why are people making an issue over the whole foil paper insulation electrocutions and house fires in parliament and the media and associating that with Peter Garret?

because parliament is full of politicians.

i don't remember calling for Garrett to resign, so you can go and get f***ed yourself :).

the department in failing to adaquately supervise the scheme

This is the bit I have trouble with. Why would the govt think they need to supervise installers any differently than they already have been?

To me, that phrase means the same thing as "failing to adequately stop stupid people being stupid". Baldy Pete isn't responsible for stupid people.

massive waste of taxpayers money and that didn't have enough checks and balances to prevent fly by nighters swooping in to claim the cash.

Isn't that what a stimulus package does? :) You've gotta admit that there were a bunch of stimulated installers out there.

Personally I blame Krudd for it but if you want to go after Garret then be my guest.

Rudd isn't the Minister for this particular portfolio. See my post above re: Responsible government.

Peter Garret needs to resign in the same breath as saying how dangerous and reckless a lot of insulators have behaved and the materials they have used, is pure and simple dishonest politikin' and you can go and get f***ed for supporting it.

Out of bounds on the full with this one, son.

There are TWO debates.

Yes, the installers are responsible, liable, etc for the faulty installations.

But the system itself also suffered a catastrophic failure. See my earlier posts regarding Minter Ellison advice.

For the system failure, the minister must go (again: responsible government). The fact that the system failed as an indirect result of cowboys in the industry is irrelevant. The direct cause was the failure for checks, balances, audits, training and qualification requirements, limitations of insulation materials, i can go on, and Minters did in details.

And for the minister to saay, oops. I didnt read the expert advice that my department had commissioned for the purpose of implementing the scheme whilst I was implementing said scheme is not good enough as a minister and he should resign.

This is before you even debate waste of public monies about to be spent auditing the debacle and fixing the faulty installations.

Both alone are the Minister responsibilty to parliament and sufficent cause for him to resign.

If you don't get it now, you never will.

devil's advocate (poor analogy) question time:

if the government changed the speed limit outside your house (let's assume a normal, residential street) to 100km/h tomorrow, contrary to advice given by a report commissioned specifically to analyse that particular speed limit, and a motorist ran over your child going 100km/h in an accident that could have been prevented at 50km/h - do you blame the motorist, the government or both?

edit: \/ fpot made a funny!

last edited by taggs at 18:56:29 23/Feb/10

It is obvious to me that you are all wrong.

The Government has strongly pushed for insulation. But not just regular insulation, FOIL insulation. And what do people make hats out of? Foil.

We are through the looking glass here people.

edit: ^ taggs analogy. I think a key ingredient missing from that analogy is that the motorist isn't doing anything unethical or illegal doing 100km/h, whereas the dodgy insulation installers are.

PS - I haven't read the thread so maybe what I said there was irrelevant.

last edited by fpot at 18:58:14 23/Feb/10

Taggs - thanks for the love.

This is the bit I have trouble with. Why would the govt think they need to supervise installers any differently than they already have been?


To me, that phrase means the same thing as "failing to adequately stop stupid people being stupid". Baldy Pete isn't responsible for stupid people.

Why different supervision?
1. Public money
2. new service providers are inexperienced and in the field for a quick buck
3. minters report

Take up your issue with the concept of responsible government which has served this country well since 1901.

Ministers = if your department makes a mistake on your watch, you fall on your sword. I don't think it can be an simplier.

As for whether the department makes a mistake. When you commission an expert report (Minters), and then implement the scheme ignoring the expert report (or in PG's case not even reading it), and the expert report turns out to be bang on the money. I consider that a mistake.

do you blame the motorist, the government or both?

There you go again. Why is it always someone elses fault? I'd blame myself for not supervising my kids near a road with a 100km limit.

Of course, I'd be pissed at the govt for making my street a freeway as well, but the analogy isn't the best.

yeah it's not a great analogy because anyone can see the danger in letting a child play near a 100km/h road. i'd seriously doubt that most people could spot a potentially dangerous insulation installation... could you?

how do you blame yourself for not having enough electrical/trade knowledge to see a dodgy insualtion installer or a dodgy insulation installation for the potentially dangerous situation it could create?

To be claiming however, that Peter Garret needs to resign in the same breath as saying how dangerous and reckless a lot of insulators have behaved and the materials they have used, is pure and simple dishonest politikin' and you can go and get f***ed for supporting it.

The two are related. The government created the incentive for loads of fly-by-nighters to enter the industry. This meant people who had no idea of what is safe or not were installing insulation. Could have been solved with training and regulation. Say, no foil insulation in existing houses, require a safety assessment of a house prior to insulation installation. They knew of both these dangers prior to going ahead with the scheme, they did it anyway. They could have introduced these measures later, the predictions of trouble were shown to be correct. They didn't.

politicans.

Heh, we can talk eh dRanged?

I find garret responsible but that's because I see government as a black box. Garret has a bunch of levers that he can pull and this causes stuff to happen. He pulled a lever and this caused a bunch of people to die.

we're no different... almost every geek I know or worked with has jumped into the roof cavity of his house to run CAT5 without so much as a thought about what live wires might be up there.

there's prolly even sparkies reading this who use crappy torches while they drill instead of lighting up the area adequately.

it's a case of natural selection imo.

the federal Govt isn't really that smart - regardless of which political party is seen to be 'running the show'

Global Financial Crisis people. They done pretty well to keep our heads above water, still I aint gunna vote for him. And Tony Abbott? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Simply a joke! A scary, egotistical, maniacal, narcissistic joke, but a JOKE NONE THE LESS.

I find garret responsible but that's because I see government as a black box. Garret has a bunch of levers that he can pull and this causes stuff to happen. He pulled a lever and this caused a bunch of people to die.

Natural Selection. The ppl who died had a responsibility to themselves. I got my insulation. BUT, I got 3 quotes. one quote was $200 above the then $1400 rebate. One was $4 dollars below the $1400 rebate and the third was $200 below the $1400 rebate. I informed these installers that I was getting multiple quotes. I also chose installers that were in the industry prior to the rebate.

The installers that ripped off the system are to blame for the collapse. Inexperienced, unsupervised and rushed workers died.

Natural selection sees my family and home safe. And sees that I am not out of pocket.

You know what, you don't seem all that friendly, stranger.

I agree with the stranger.
We are no longer taking responsibility for our own actions.
The road rules and safety standards are evidence of that.

Let nature take its course.

i don't remember calling for Garrett to resign

ok i will then. garrett was sloppy and lazy, didn't ask the right questions and let his public servants fool him.

he has failed as a minister, people have died as a result, and he should resign. and rudd is now just as liable for leaving him there to implement the next scheme.

Rudd's ministers aren't particularly autonomous anyway.

I suspect he didn't ask particularly tough questions because it was the prime minister's department doing most of the running of the show.

ok i will then. garrett was sloppy and lazy, didn't ask the right questions and let his public servants fool him.

Maybe Rudd should do the ole Howard trick. Whenever a Minister was found fraudulent, incompetent or just plain stupid he'd do a reshuffle and move the dickwad of a failure to another portfolio so they had time, before they'd stuff that up and require another deck chair reshuffle, the public had either forgotten about or gotten over the previous reshuffle.

Unlike the Labor technique, which involves giving them a cushy diplomatic job instead?

^ I think you'll find that Howard did exactly the same. How we forget so quickly.

I think you'll find howard wasn't an incompetent moron.

I think you'll find he was... Just like any politician

I think you'll find howard wasn't an incompetent moron.

Two comments on this. Howard as a Treasurer was an abomination and utter failure.

Howard in is his first term as PM was a lame duck. It wasn't until later terms things started to happen. Most of the reforms were already initiated before him. His own reform agenda only started to take shape in the latter part of the 2nd term and then the 3rd term and so on being capped off with running amok on an ideological tangent in his last term.

I'd be more inclined to say the real shining light of the Howard era was Peter Costello. I'm not a Howard man period. I lived through the Frasier/Howard years from a young man into my twenties trying to make a living and it was tough and the country was left in a shambles.

I'm over this partisan sychophant s***. Liberals are poor in some things, Labor are poor in others, but I have learnt from living through more Govts than you can poke a stick at that in their first term they generally talk big but try to change little. It's only been two Govts that reformed a lot in their first term, Gough Whitlam, cause at that time the Country sucked after coming out of a Billy McMahon lead govt that sucked even bigger and we needed massive change, alas he didn't know how to go about it and had poor troops to back him up. Then Hawke and Keating, for all their failures in later years in their first two terms they were outstanding and took the country forward by a huge leap. We went from being an inward looking nation to one looking outwards.

Now in all the Liberal Govts I have lived under Gorton's was my favourite. Everyone on both side of politics and their supporters liked the man and he was a fair dinkum top bloke. A pity Billy McMahon and his numbnuts stabbed him in the back.

EDIT: BTW my favourite Liberal during the 80's was Andrew Peacock, alas Howard the backstabbing prick of a man saw the end to a top bloke and his political career. I wouldn't have had one problem with Peacock running the place. A far more progressive, switched on, compassionate man then any other liberal of his time.

last edited by Some Fat Bastard at 01:36:41 26/Feb/10

Ahh, I knew I'd get a response full of bulls*** from you. Have fun.

^ f*** you're a knob, nuff said.

One last thing, I think there are no great politicians in parliament today on either side. IMHO the great ones are either dead or left cause they saw the way things work today stifles any lateral thinking. That's both State and Federal.

The only politican I have some semblence of respect for of late is "Can do" Campbell.

last edited by Some Fat Bastard at 01:48:06 26/Feb/10

Ahh, I knew I'd get a response full of bulls*** from you. Have fun.

you are a f***en d*******

you look like a total pissant if you don't at least try to bring some semblance of a counter-argument to the table when delivering a reply like that

The only politican I have some semblence of respect for of late is "Can do" Campbell.

I agree with you there. Pretty sure the whole political debate thing has been done so many times on this forum I really don't give a s*** anymore, though making SFB fire up is always entertaining.

^ I like reading "infi" posts too. I always get a laugh when he can't think outside of a bermuda triangle. Like I said I'm over the whole Liberal vs Labor s*** too. As long as they do a good job I don't care where they come from - Mars even.

last edited by Some Fat Bastard at 02:16:38 26/Feb/10