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Opec
Posts: 6150
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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You may have heard in the past week another attempt of terrorist's plot to blow up a commercial airliner using liquid explosive was foiled in the US.
Bruce Schneier had written an opinion piece on aviation security measures etc., good read as per usual.
Is aviation security mostly for show? |
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| #0 11:42am 30/12/09 |
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BillyHardball
Posts: 9885
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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Not going to do any editorializing here; just going to do some non-fancy math. James Joyner asks: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/12/odds-of-airborne-terror.html |
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| #1 11:54am 30/12/09 |
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CHUB
Posts: 5973
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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Good one Billy :D
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| #2 11:56am 30/12/09 |
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imitation
Posts: 3281
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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Good article |
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| #3 01:35pm 30/12/09 |
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sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 4632
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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Yeah good one Billy.
I like it when things are brought down to the bare facts. As it is hard to argue against mathematics and statistics. |
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| #4 10:09pm 30/12/09 |
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fpot
Posts: 16773
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
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I don't understand how odds can be used to represent the chances of being involved in an airplane related attack. I mean certainly your locality, what airline you're using, what time of year it is and a million other variables will have some influence on those odds and will affect them.
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| #5 10:36pm 30/12/09 |
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greazy
Posts: 2617
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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It's an extremely rough estimate and not really accurate representation of terrorist acts. Still, even if you include all those variables, the odds are extremely low and you have a better chance of dying from being shat on by Kim Kardashian.
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| #6 10:42pm 30/12/09 |
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fpot
Posts: 16774
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
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Well the odds of winning the lottery are higher (or is it lower? heh) and that happens every week :P
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| #7 10:49pm 30/12/09 |
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neimad
Posts: 578
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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Why the US Government hasn't hired Bruce Schneier to head up Homeland Security is beyond me. The man has common sense pouring out every orifice, and you get the feeling that the numerous security agencies would have produced far more efficient and effective results.
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| #8 11:24pm 30/12/09 |
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natslovR
Posts: 6448
Location: Sydney, New South Wales
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There's a big difference between the good work the security services do day in day out and the ones they have to do for political feel-good reasons.
On average one significant extremist plot is dismantled every week by western security forces. As far back as early 2007 MI5 was disrupting a significant terrorist plot every 6 weeks in the UK alone. In November 2006 they revealed they were actively tracking 1600 extremists in 200 networks (original link, i think it's dead but i can forward it to anyone that's interested.) and I've read somewhere it's now much higher (but couldn't find the article). They may have to run the charade that is airport security for all of us to endure, but I think the description of the attempts on aircraft as "clownishly inept" is extremely dishonest. If the 19 men with their box cutters had failed on 9/11, would that have been described as "clownishly inept" too? There's nothing clownishly inept about taking out a plane with explosives. It's just much more difficult now for four guys hell bent on killing infidels to get on the same flight with weapons, so it's left to individuals to carry out these acts. In the past a guy with explosives in his crotch or shoe would declare his position and take control of the plane. Now he's got to ignite it as quickly as possible before the passengers beat the s*** out of him. |
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| #9 12:39am 31/12/09 |
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nF
Forum Hero
Posts: 16172
Location: Wynnum, Queensland
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I like it when things are brought down to the bare facts. As it is hard to argue against mathematics and statistics. What is the argument? That the threat of terrorism is exagerated or that the TSA/HS/FBI are doing a really good job between them of stopping attacks? Seems to me that its the later. |
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| #10 01:16am 31/12/09 |
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fpot
Posts: 16776
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
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Could be both.
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| #11 01:18am 31/12/09 |
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imitation
Posts: 3285
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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What is the argument? That the threat of terrorism is exagerated or that the TSA/HS/FBI are doing a really good job between them of stopping attacks? I'm going to say the second when you consider If we can’t catch a Nigerian with a powerful explosive powder in his oddly feminine-looking underpants and a syringe full of acid, a man whose own father had alerted the U.S. Embassy in Nigeria, a traveler whose ticket was paid for in cash and who didn’t check bags, whose visa renewal had been denied by the British, who had studied Arabic in Al Qaeda sanctuary Yemen, whose name was on a counterterrorism watch list, who can we catch? from NY Times piece |
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| #12 11:36am 31/12/09 |
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Some Fat Bastard
Posts: 747
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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Why worry about terrorist attack, just fly with Garuda or Southern China Airlines and you've just put your lives at higher risk than any other reason.
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| #13 02:34pm 31/12/09 |
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hast
Posts: 1104
Location: UK
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i think bruce ignores that security theatre might be important. if people need to feel safe then maybe security theatre might be the most effective way of making people feel safe. more people died from choosing to drive than to fly post 9/11 than in the 9/11 attacks themselves. security theatre can save lives just not in the way that you think. sucks that governments go for theatre which is expensive before trying to convince us with statistics/propaganda which are cheap :(
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| #14 02:46pm 31/12/09 |
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greazy
Posts: 2623
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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f people need to feel safe then maybe security theatre might be the most effective way of making people feel safe. more people died from choosing to drive than to fly post 9/11 than in the 9/11 attacks themselves. gonna need a source for that hast. |
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| #15 02:53pm 31/12/09 |
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fpot
Posts: 16780
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
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No he doesn't?
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| #16 03:16pm 31/12/09 |
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imitation
Posts: 3287
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
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greazy obv everyone knows flying safer than driving
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| #17 04:01pm 31/12/09 |
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hast
Posts: 1105
Location: UK
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flying might be safer but i guess it isn't very obvious that enough people chosen to drive that 2973 extra people were killed. my source is Dance with Chance. in 2001-2004 128,525 people died in car accidents in the US and statisticians have found that this was 5% higher than expected or around 5000 extra deaths (numbers don't add up for some reason :)). i have found other references as well:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/4014922 http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=677549 which put the extra road deaths at around 250/month last edited by hast at 16:23:52 31/Dec/09 |
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| #18 04:23pm 31/12/09 |
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