Hi guys,

I know there are lot of people employed in the IT industry that frequent this forum, so I figured I'd throw out a question.

Essentially, my situation is that I'm working in a call centre job right now. We've found out we're being made redundant mid-late next year, and I'd like to actually attempt beginning a career at that point in time, rather than just bouncing from job to job really not gaining any valuable skills or bettering myself (or my pay, for that matter). I was wanting to get into IT, and essentially want to know the best way to "break into" the industry, so to speak. I was looking at doing System Administration.

Given that I'm the sole income earner for my family, going to Uni/Tafe to study fulltime is pretty much out of the question. I know that there are a lot of self-paced study options out there, but I have no idea where to start.

Essentially what I'm hoping for is this:

To have *some sort* of qualification to get my foot in the door in an IT job when we get made redundant next year. As I said earlier, I'd like to aim towards System Administration. I was hoping that people here would be able to point me in the right direction for undertaking one of these self-paced qualifications so that I can have a relevant "piece of paper" to obtain said job.

As an outsider, it seems that prior experience is the most important thing in the IT industry, so I'm essentially just wanting to get the correct certificate so I can get an entry level job and work my way up from there.

Any advice/tips on this would be really, really helpful. Thanks in advance.

just play cs and making a living there

yeah you could run cs lessons

Level 1 HelpDesk... basically any s***kicker jobs.

Also, 'IT' is a pretty wide field. You might want to narrow down what you're actually looking for. That way you can cater study/experence towards that end. Coder, Hardware Support, Software Support, Sys Admin etc etc.

I'm not in IT though, but thats how it works for the majority of fields.

Oh yeah, knowing people helps too. It's not what you know...

Take my job in PSTT when I leave in 6 weeks. Bam - 6 months of helpdesk experience.

Look at TAFE courses, number 1, fairly cheap and should give you the basics, as well as a cert to help you get a foot in the door.

Next look at entry level positions, Help/Support desk roles, mobile IT repair jobs, etc...

Play up your skills, if you know the basics, DOS, Windows, the difference between PCI and AGP cards, etc. this will give you an advantage, as will being able to set up a home network, install and configure Windows or Linux.

Never shoot for the high end jobs unless you have the experience they just won't look at you. Once you're in, then start finding a "specialty" something that interests you and you're good at, like me I work mainly with VMWare servers.

I started small about 10 years ago doing data entry and building my home system, later I moved into level 1/2 support, help desk roles, next I moved into more level 3 support roles, remote desktop support and then took a course to get that piece of paper that says I have been formally educated. 10 years later I'm now working as a Network Admin and looking to move my career further.

When you say you work in a call centre, is it IT related helpdesk type stuff or what are u actually doing?

Microsoft Certs is the way to go for entry level, go for Microsoft MCDST, starting at the Vista/Windows 7 exams and work up. Checkout the Microsoft website for the certification paths.

Depending on how many $ you have to spend, just study up and do the exams. The exams cost about $200 to do. If you want to guarantee to pass get something like testking for the exams you are going to do. I know alot people say its cheating, and it kinda is but at least you get a good idea of the sorts of questions they ask and know how to answer them in the microsoft way. And if you read through all the testking questions and answers, you will no doubt learn somethingh along the way. Get some books aswell for each exam so you can do some learning.

People wont expect you to be an expert even if you come in with an MCDST, IT people know the certifications dont realy show what you actually know, but the managers like them so they can show there managers they are hiring "qualified" people.

Dont worry about any other certs except for microsoft until you have a few years experience, then you will know if you are going to lean towards to cisco type areas, or the citrix/vmware areas.

Get vmware on your home machine (vmware workstation is only like $99 i think, vmware server is free) and start playing around with eval versions of all microsoft software you can get, server 2008/2003, exchange 2007/10 etc, set up a domain and go through all the setup and you will learn by doing.

If you can find an alternative industry, do that.. otherwise if you're still keen to get into IT then a good start is pick up a course like an MCSA or RHCT. You will more than likely start of in a help desk job ($30-45k) for 18-24 months before 'cracking' it into a sys admin role.

how old are you?
I hire helpdesk juniors all the time but we are looking for the most junior of juniors
ie, we provide every bit of training you need so we take anyone from fresh out of high school or even if you've worked on a helpdesk before etc

sturdy knees and a strong jaw

As mentioned above, look into the MS certs for the field you are going for. They are industry-recognised for Windows support / admin and are entirely self-paced so you can do the work in your own time before you get the arse.

Aside from that, acquire an MS server demo version ISO and try to build and maintain a basic server. Explore everything and learn as much as you can about sys admin.

Level One support is pretty basic s***, you're helping people with common error-between-keyboard-and-chair probs. In most organisations this will require knowledge about their software suite which you'll never know from the outside. Just skill up & cert as much as possible, take the s***tiest s*** kicker job that meets pay reqs for your team and go from there :)

Take my job in PSTT when I leave in 6 weeks. Bam - 6 months of helpdesk experience.

hahahaha... another PSTTer :P

How's Scougs doing?

+1 level 1 service/help desk.

Worked in a few - if you already have call centre background and basic PC knowledge you should be able land a job pretty easily.

hahahaha... another PSTTer :P

How's Scougs doing?

There's more than you think!

And Scougs is good.

If you can find an alternative industry, do that..

Also this :P

IT/Helpdesk is kind of like getting off smoking - You do your best to stay away and say you'll never go back, but somehow always manage to drift back towards it again.

yeah reckon, if something else interests you - have a go at it first

by the sounds of it you're on the bottom rung as far as IT goes anyway so your pay can't really get much worse by starting on the bottom rung of something else

Have a look at the Microsoft certificates. They are pretty expensive but in a few days you can have qualifications in SQL server, MS Exchange, Windows Server 2008. This will probably help you on your system administration career path.

I am doing a few training sessions in January from nhaustralia. They have a few training courses around 1500-3000 dollar mark depending on what you are doing. My company wants me to do implementation and maintenance of SQL server 2008 but technically you don't need to know much in the field to do these courses.

There's more than you think!

And Scougs is good.

Glad to hear it. Heard he has a a Scouglet running around now?

Also, what the hell is it with you all coming out of the woodwork? Which one of you is Tony and which one's Gary? The rest of you lot would've changed since I was there :P

Also, so to not derail the thread, if you've worked in PSTT or similar, you'd be reasonably well qualified for an entry level helpdesk position without any hassles at all. My brother's company are looking for a junior IT monkey, so if you feel that you fit that description, hit me up. I know what PSTT is like in terms of work type, workload and the number of f***ing retarded calls you have to deal with. I'd be happy to pass on your CVs etc to him.

I have seen a number of guys go from level 1 at my work to earning nearly twice me.
Few years experience, some good example documentation and project work.
And a good reference from their current boss.

You want to try and find a level 1 position where they encourage people to have a chop at stuff above their level. A level 1 being able to write they implemented a citrix farm and have a bunch of flashy documentation and a cert to go with it... Looks way better then "I answered phones at some huge company for 12 months".

Also, 'IT' is a pretty wide field. You might want to narrow down what you're actually looking for.

Agreed, you can't just say "I want to work in industry x" no one will take you seriously. Develop a specific skill and look for jobs specific to that, and don't say you want 'any' job in IT because people like that tend to be below average at anything they do.
I'm not saying you can't be brilliant at everything, but it's unlikely and they won't like that attitude when hiring. Then again some businesses might be happy to hire an all-rounder because they don't have any specific day to day tasks they need him to do. Usually small companies that just have the 1 'computer guy' to help out other staff that work with computers.

Glad to hear it. Heard he has a a Scouglet running around now?

Also, what the hell is it with you all coming out of the woodwork? Which one of you is Tony and which one's Gary? The rest of you lot would've changed since I was there :P

That he does - Cute little guy that looks a lot like him. And no, none of us on here are Gary or Tony :D

some businesses might be happy to hire an all-rounder because they don't have any specific day to day tasks they need him to do. Usually small companies that just have the 1 'computer guy' to help out other staff that work with computers.

Actually, if you're looking to get started in IT as a career as opposed to as a hobby, being a good generalist is really beneficial. I'd certainly prefer to take on a junior with moderate skills in a wide range of areas as opposed to someone with really detailed knowledge of something obscure. Start with a good general basis and THEN build towards a specific specialisation.

Our company is a managed services provider. Essentially we manage corporate networks for other companies who don't have their own internal IT department. Particularly for us (and there are lots of companies around like us), a wider skillset is an asset as you never know what you're going to be called on to handle next.

Well I guess it's good there are companies like yours willing to give untrained workers off the street a chance.

last edited by thermite at 16:32:18 14/Dec/09

And Scougs is good.

Its been over 4 years now since Iv worked with him , I do miss him telling me that my conversations are inapprioate for work :P

On track, MCSE is dime a dozen, its meaning less and less unfortunatly but its an option.
The problem you will face is that it is incredibly hard to walk into a sysadmin job with no experiance. Even more so now that there is so many unemployed people looking for sysadmin work.

Your best bet is too look for helpdesk roles, the fact that you work in a call center and have pretty good people skills (from what I remember) is a positive, because you cannot teach that, where as technical s*** you can. Unfortunatly, the helpdesk option will mean you have to take a hit in pay.

That said, do helpdesk, do your Cisco certs and/or Cisco IP Telephony course and you will find doors opening.

Best of luck with it though. Out of curiosity, what is your current skillset with MS Server 2003/2008 and exchange 2003/2007?

*Fake edit*

Another thought is too get an old server or a semi decent PC and install vmware ESXi on it and start playing with server and exchange so you get experiance in virtualisation and the MS platforms which are the most common.

Well I guess it's good there are companies like yours willing to give untrained workers off the street a chance.

You're not so good at that whole "reading comprehension" thing, are you?

Cabling license is a useful thing to have as well

I do miss him telling me that my conversations are inappropriate for work :P

You do have to admit that at times he was right... Also, you are still the only person I've heard use the term, "cum-guzzling thunder c***" in a call centre environment.

Just because it may have been inappropriate doesnt make it not true.

He didn't say anything when that couple was shagging on the balcony across the way.

start applying for helpdesk now -> get some MS certs -> kick ass at helpdesk -> move to desktop support -> kick ass at that -> get more certs -> become a sys admin -> find something you like (AD, storage, vmware, apps) whatever -> get some certs in that -> find a job doing just that -> earn good money.

He didn't say anything when that couple was shagging on the balcony across the way.

That's not true.. He said, "stop cheering and get off the balcony" :P

He didn't say anything when that couple was shagging on the balcony across the way.


That's not true.. He said, "stop cheering and get off the balcony" :P

I didn't hear him....I was distracted at the time tho.

Thanks so much for all the input guys, it really is appreciated. Sorry if I wasn't specific enough, essentially a Sysadmin job would be I guess you could say my "five year goal". I essentially want to know the steps to take to get there.

start applying for helpdesk now -> get some MS certs -> kick ass at helpdesk -> move to desktop support -> kick ass at that -> get more certs -> become a sys admin -> find something you like (AD, storage, vmware, apps) whatever -> get some certs in that -> find a job doing just that -> earn good money.

This was exactly what I was after. Thankyou very, very much.

Essentially the part I'm hazy on, is how do I go about getting MS certs? I understand they're self-paced learning, and that you pay to sit the exam at some stage, but I literally don't know where to buy the study material / how much it costs / what books to buy and study / where do I go to sit the exam etc. I definitely have no experience in the industry and understand there's work to be done, I just wanted to know where to begin. The way I see it, I could be earning $45k per year in some bulls*** call centre job wasting my time, or earning $40k per year in a helpdesk/similar role, but actually be working toward something.

Essentially, I want to start working on the relevant MS certs *now*, so that when I get made redundant, I'll have a leg-up on any entry-level jobs going.

Thanks again dudes, you all rule.

Well, you have a good attitude about it so youll go far.

My suggestion would be have a look at tafe (It really does hurt me to say this) but Iv seen a few courses do your basic IT diploma with a MCSE or whatever they call it these days.

What I did for my CCNA (Which I admit, I still have not done the test, but I have studied for it) is get the books off amazon, its cheaper than any store here and if in doubt which book to buy, read the reviews. There is a s***load of them out there. If you get stuck, ask us here.

When you can do the practice tests, then go and find the private schools that do it. Excom is one of them, but I hear they are average, but there is a whole host of them. I think your MCSE is going to set you back about 3k for the exam, but Im behind the times so that could be wrong.

Seriously, get some hardware with a VM running and build your own network with Active Directory, Exchange, Antivirus server and whatever else you can get your hands on. Love it, make it a passion, learn as much as you can and you will do pretty good I reckon.

I still reckon experiance over certs. After all, MCSE stands for Must Consult Someone Else :P

Remind me to tell you about Project Root tomorrow, sound exactly like what you'll need.

start applying for helpdesk now -> get some MS certs -> kick ass at helpdesk -> move to desktop support -> kick ass at that -> get more certs -> become a sys admin -> find something you like (AD, storage, vmware, apps) whatever -> get some certs in that -> find a job doing just that -> earn good money.

depends where you work, but essentially that is exactly how you would do it where i work.

http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en/us/certification/mcitp.aspx#tab2

Its not MCSE any more, there is new MS certs based around server 08, exchange 07 and Vista/Windows 7 now.

First do the MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator 7 as Windows 7 certs would be pretty handy by the time your are getting a job. Thats 2 exams,

Then do MCITP: Server Administrator, thats three exams, 70-640, 70-642, 70-646

You do the exams through someone like http://Excom.com.au they are about $200 for the exams.

Do as many practise exams as you can, get the testking practice exams.

Given that I'm the sole income earner for my family, going to Uni/Tafe to study fulltime is pretty much out of the question. I know that there are a lot of self-paced study options out there, but I have no idea where to start.

Going to Uni and getting paid a decent amount isn't out of the question.
Go to ADFA. They will pay for your degree and give you a guaranteed job starting at 55K or more.

with a chance of death ^

Its not MCSE any more, there is new MS certs based around server 08, exchange 07 and Vista/Windows 7 now.

First do the MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator 7 as Windows 7 certs would be pretty handy by the time your are getting a job. Thats 2 exams,

Then do MCITP: Server Administrator, thats three exams, 70-640, 70-642, 70-646

You do the exams through someone like http://Excom.com.au they are about $200 for the exams.

Do as many practise exams as you can, get the testking practice exams.

You are a lord. Thanks so much.

Just a question, is there generally a study guide book per certificate? As in, for MCITP: Enterprise Desktop Administrator 7, I'd buy a specific study guide for that cert, study hard, do practice exams, then pay my $400 for my 2 exams and get the cert?

Because if so, I can't seem to find a specific study guide for that cert on either Amazon or Fishpond. Or maybe I'm just doing it all wrong.

you're after what the company selling the exams offers, basically
a summarised view of the course & what you might expect on the exam?

http://unix.org.au/~brett/images/mcse.png

http://www.amazon.com/MCTS-Self-Paced-Training-Exam-70-680/dp/0735627088/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260789811&sr=8-2

Go to amazon.com and search for the specific course code.

valuable skills or bettering myself

Sounds to me like you've gained good customer service skills. These is a requirement for your average phone jockey helpdesk job.

You are a lord. Thanks so much.

You suck! I pretty much gave you the same advice earlier.

A lot of lvl 1 desks will take you on with no recognised IT qualifications. All in all going to get a degree can be a waste of time depending on how far you want to take things.

May be useful down the track in higher up positions but to start it really means f*** all.

As long as you can demonstrate you have some basic PC troubleshooting skills you should be able to land a bottom rung position easily.

It's a pity you didn't post this a few weeks back, we just had a big intake of nubes where I'm at right now. Considering how bad some of the useless plebs that work here are you'd be a shoe in :)

It is contract work but thats pretty much standard for starting off in bottom rung IT jobs. If you're keen let me know and I can throw your CV into the mix for next time they want people.

Let me know.

Thanks very much man. It won't be until I get made redundant however, which will be later next year. I'll definitely keep that in mind though :) Cheers.

The most important thing you can do in becoming a sysadmin is to find a good mentor ( preferably you want to work for them ) . All the certifications and books and learnings won't get you anything like the experience that having a good mentor gives you. Of course finding a good mentor isn't easy. I'm not a great mentor which I hate, as I would love to be able to pay forward the mentoring I got at crucial points in my career.

The next biggest thing is to tackle as much stuff as possible. Windows, Linux, Storage, Virtual, networking, firewalling, voip, etc. I think the best way to get a foot in the door at a good company as a junior is to know a little bit about everything ( and preferably a lot about at least a couple ).

This is the most important thing I look at when hiring as it not only shows a nice well rounded knowledge base, but also a keenness to learn and develop yourself.

Get a machine running VMWare and play with the following ( not a comprehensive list of skills by any means, but a good start, and any average sysadmin should have most of this list covered ) :-

Windows :-
- Set up AD with two DCs and an exchange server, learn how to manage users, email etc.
- .bat,.vbs,powershell scripting
- Group Policy
- IIS/DNS/DHCP
- Security Hardening ( read up on security hardening a windows installation + IIS )

Linux :-
- Install Linux distro ( CentOS for server, ubuntu for workstation )
- Install LAMP stack, set up mediawiki, phpbb, drupal
- Learn MySQL ( you'll already have SQL set up for above, learn about query syntax, creating users/databases/tables, master/slave replication )
- PHP ( learn basic PHP syntax, write some custom modules for above web apps )
- Postfix ( email, look up the postfix+mysql+courierimap+amavisd+spamassassin )
- Bind ( DNS server, setting up zones etc )
- Squid ( set up proxy server, ldap auth to active directory for bonus points, transproxy bonus points )
- SAMBA ( share folder to windows using AD auth )
- NFS ( share filesystem with other linux )
- IP Tables ( firewall, ACLs, etc )
- shell scripting, perl/python


Networking :-
- Vyatta ( opensource linux based firewall/vpn ), set up IPSEC/OpenVPN, routing, port forwarding, NAT, VLAN, etc.

Voice :-
- Trixbox/Asterisk ( opensource Linux based VoIP ), set up extensions, connect to a third-party VoIP provider, set up ring groups, IVR, connect two asterisk boxes via a trunk.

OpenSolaris :-
- ZFS! with excellent support for iscsi, nfs, smb and the various ZFS raid options and deduplication I think we're going to see a good uptake of ZFS.

FreeBSD :-
- a true Unix operating system, much like linux, just learn enough to be comfortable in front of a CLI ... many skills from linux above will be just as relevent here.

Storage :-
- failing a true NAS/SAN, you can use OpenFiler or FreeNAS, but I would suggest that the above OpenSolaris with ZFS would be just as good as either of those options.
- setting up iSCSI connections should give you a basic understanding of some of the concepts for SAN.



last edited by stinky at 10:07:24 15/Dec/09

Also if you're looking for one thing to learn to get you a good jump into the industry I'd have to go with networking. Get a Cisco CCNA and you'll get a good jump into the industry. I know a few people that did CCNA through Tafe and are doing quite well for themselves having used that ( and a lot of hard work ) as an entry to the industry.

The problem with cisco is that it's very difficult to learn and keep current without having access to physical gear. This means that a lot of sysadmins don't get much more than a passing understanding and skill with it and can give you an edge.

^ +1 to all that stinky said, especially the configuration and scripting side of things. Speaking as a developer who has instructed a few sysadmins on the benefits of scripting myself: One of the key things that elevates sysadmins to a greater productivity level is through scripting.

A system administrator who doesn't know better might spend 2 hours adding a few hundred users into a system through the GUI, whereas the smart ones will write a small script in 10-15 minutes and then feed a list of the required users into that script, all done.

A system administrator who doesn't know better might spend 2 hours adding a few hundred users into a system through the GUI, whereas the smart ones will write a small script in 10-15 minutes and then feed a list of the required users into that script, all done.

Or a sensible sysadmin might used an ldiff import tool and do 1400 user in say about 5mins.

In another life I would have become a sysadmin. I did work-experience in Year 10 at this ridiculously small software engineering firm in Hobart and I asked the guy (database designer), "So, what do you earn?" and he answered, "About $25,000."

It put me off programming completely as a professional option. I am by no means money hungry, but that's was just a ridiculous wage even that long ago.

Of course, my judgment based on that one guy working in Hobart was completely wrong. There is a lot of cash out there for such people but I just asked the wrong guy in the wrong area, clearly, and went on to become an engineer instead :-)))

don't you feel better you can call yourself an engineer as oppose to an IT guy?

It's simply a title, to most people who work in each industry it means near nothing. It's only to the people outside these industries do they mean something.

That's what I personally thing anyway.

don't you feel better you can call yourself an engineer as oppose to an IT guy?

Nah, not really. I'm sort of a half-breed programming engineer, although at one company they call me 'super-secretary', the secretary with some engineering ability, ahaha. That's life in a small company, you do everything. One day I work on the website, the next I size car boot flooring and do material testing. That's how I like it.

If I could do it all again I'd become an accountant actually.

oh right so a 'softwarefake engineer' :P

I use the term 'fake engineer' all the time, hehe.

I lol at people who get pissy when us IT guys call ourselves engineers
how many of you have ever "engineered" an environment capable of handling millions of emails per day?

yeah, that's what I thought

on this episode of 'build it bigger'

THE BIGGEST EMAIL SERVER IN THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE

f*** i'm excited

last edited by paveway at 13:58:23 15/Dec/09

my tertiary qualifications are in computer systems engineering
my role is systems engineer
explain to me how i'm not an engineer. just because i don't build bridges doesn't mean im not an engineer.

Heh I have the other problem - people raging when I have the audacity to very occasionally refer to myself as a 'scientist' or having a science qualification.

The fact that I have a Computer Science and Technology degree issued by the the Science Faculty at Sydney Uni with credits in Physics, Psychology, Mathematics and a couple of semesters studying science itself doesn't seem to matter.

All scientists go to work with white lab coats and work with beakers of frothing s***! I normally just say 'software developer' as its usually safe from pretentious arseholes who might be listening.

the knobs at work say you aren't an engineer unless you passed a bachelor of engineering at uq.. preferably with masters or phd :P qut... duzznt count, griffith... you're a hippy, not an engineer! associate diplomas = pretend engineers.

even though i do engineering work everyday i prefer the title 'cad-monkey' coz all the 'real' engineers at work seem like total toffs! they are geeks n proud of it :[[

Or a sensible sysadmin might used an ldiff import tool and do 1400 user in say about 5mins.

Useful if you're importing into a directory server maybe, but not so much if you're importing into say SQL server, or a bunch of other 3rd party software.

lols at pave, sniping away at our awesome IT careers

Customer Service Engineers

Customer Relations Engineers

demon i don't refer to myself as an engineer when talking to other people in the industry, but i got pretty sick of explaining what it is i actually do as a civil engineering drasftman as most people have no idea about chain of drafties, designers etc or whatever and most people then still then go on to refer to me as an engineer anyway

lol you reckon trying to say qut doesn't count? try and tell our 4 senior RPEQ engineers (one of which is the director) that

bzzt doesn't fly





last edited by paveway at 15:02:12 15/Dec/09

last edited by paveway at 15:03:09 15/Dec/09

hehe i think designing a WAN over a country the size of australia takes a little bit more intelligence than figuring out how to build a road or a house.

here here

My official title: Senior Software Developer

But I call myself a programmer. My QUT's degree said I've done Bachelor of Information Technology, Major in Software Engineering...

It's all pretty arbitrary IMO.

hear hear

Just sayin.

true, I don't care

I didn't go to uni but I still have the mad skills to land myself an IT job in the field I enjoy, not just in the field I studied (or didn't study, in my case)

hehe of course it does doob

but lets talk about a similar scale here, lets compare it to say a road tunnel dug under a river

or this http://images.businessweek.com/ss/06/01/wonders_bigdigs/image/millau_viaduct.jpg

hi guyz my email server is huge

Just in case I wasn't clear, I have a Bachelor of Engineering (Aerospace, Honours First Class) and a Master of Engineering. That makes me an engineer of the engineering variety that engineers.

However, as Opec said, it's semantics. Pieces of paper are nice, but at the end of the day they don't mean you can do anything tangible.

lol you reckon trying to say qut doesn't count? try and tell our 4 senior RPEQ engineers (one of which is the director) that

yah i'm just repeating what the knobs here rekn... coz they are all from uq :p personally i refer to all employees as either competent or incompetent... nothing else matters imo. :D

oh right yeah UQ wankers, we all know atleast one of them

how did you get from aeronautics to whatever is it which sounds IT related now pinky?

absolutely regarding it being arbitrary, my roll as far as the pay lady is concerned is drafty but i do all kinds of s*** your average drafty wouldn't do/isn't interested in doing but it's all depends where you want to go

last edited by paveway at 15:33:22 15/Dec/09

wow, a bridge based on a century old idea. lot of thought went into that

Additionally, what about (most) engineers who don't work on massive projects, and build the everyday s*** we pass off day in day out?

Are they not 'real' engineers, given that your benchmark is apparently whether you make big impressive s***?

Is the software that controls and provides communication to the Hubble or Mars not awesome as well?

last edited by Hogfather at 15:37:41 15/Dec/09

how did you get from aeronautics to whatever is it which sounds IT related now pinky?

The aerospace industry in Australia isn't exactly booming in case you didn't notice :-P We have one legit (entire) aircraft manufacturer, Gippsland Aeronautics. The other subsidiaries and contractors that we have just work on projects and manufacture bits of aircraft which are assembled elsewhere in the world. I've never had a massive driving desire to work in that industry. Aero is considered the 'crem de la crem' of engineering degrees though, so it's not a prohibitive degree to have - you can move into other industries. My stream is structural engineering but I'll give anything a go - dynamics & control, aerodynamics, computational fluids. S'all good, I'm flexible.

I'm what most would call a computational analysis engineering analyst (CAE analyst). CAD guy like demon gives me some IGES/STEP files, I mesh them up and analyse them (Finite Element Analysis) for common structural properties like vibration response, buckling, stress/displacement, etc - for dynamic and static scenarios. However, someone has to develop such tools. That's more or less what I do. So I program a lot compared to similar engineers in my field.

The only programmers who get to put on airs about being engineers are the 4 year BE (Software Engineering) course graduates. Just having the word 'engineering' somewhere in the degree doesn't count. :P

P.S. That's not me blowing my own trumpet, I didn't do that particular degree.

god i hate structural engineering, all the bridges and buildings and s*** are cool and the senior guys talking on the docos have sweet jobs but the poor bastards at the bottom detailing ever peice of steal or counting ever peice of reinforcement - forget that

that sounds rad should have gone and owned it up in the states for northrop grumman, lockhead martin or mcdonnell douglas

so you're not really in IT at all

last edited by paveway at 16:07:27 15/Dec/09

last edited by paveway at 16:08:04 15/Dec/09

so you're not really in IT at all

Not in the strict sense of the word. But in a small company someone does everything, so I'm the go-to. I manage our servers, network, VPN's, backups, website, etc. It makes me IT enough. I can't setup the biggest email server in the world though!!!111eleven

What about B.E (Electronic Engineering), are they considered engineers?

Or do you have build engines?

i have no gripe with any proper engineers :]

My understanding of the word 'engineer' is that it was f***ed up by English speakers. In German 'engineer' stems from the word 'ingenious' and not the word 'engine' like in English. So I reckon anyone with a bit of smarts is an engineer :-P

This is the most important thing I look at when hiring as it not only shows a nice well rounded knowledge base, but also a keenness to learn and develop yourself.

This. This is exactly how I got my current job and I love the fact that I am a jack of all trades. I don't really have a specialized knowledge in one area, I know a lot about different areas and I love it, because I get exposed to so much different s*** and so much variety.

My QUT's degree said I've done Bachelor of Information Technology, Major in Software Engineering...

Represent!

I've got a Bachelor of Science majoring in Biochemistry.

...

Wish I did Electronic Engineering. Next time gadget, next time.

man I hope you still lan Toll

Service Desk / Helpdesk is easy to land with the right attitude but easier to know someone that will give you the heads up etc first. I was lucky and skipped the whole lower level stuff and slid straight into a sysadmin roll (Although all my quals are in computer software development and database design).

Two important things ....

1. Always be willing to admit to someone that knows things that you don't but are willing to learn (this attitude will allow you to skill up quickly with people that have skill levels above your own without them getting the s***s cause you think you know everything ... )

2. Always instill in management that you are confident. s*** goes wrong in IT ... just make sure you have 2 roll back points for when it does and don't freak out.

I think something to consider if you wanting to progress via service desk to sysadmin is virtual desktops. I have my Citrix quals and are currently installing VMWare View 4 and I think virtual desktop and things like ThinApp etc are going to start to be in demand with all the different platforms around -eg- netbooks etc.