From my memory there's a few guys on QGL that have some serious aquarium setups and I assume a decent collection of knowledge on the subject.

Ideally I would like to chat over MSN, because I have so many questions that a QGL thread or even a PM convo would be insufficient... though any help is better then nothing.

I predominantly need help on the various physical components of the tank setup and some estimate on a price range, trying to find the right setup for a relatively exciting environment... looking at starting to purchase the gear in 2 weeks tops, so if you fish nutters can help me out asap that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

How big are you prepared to go, how much are you willing to spend, and any idea on what species you wish to keep?

Not very big :S Enough to fit on a standard dresser, so only like 30cm deep, 30cm high and maybe 60cm long.

I only have 400 - 500 to spend right now, but I'm looking at possibly building it up so I will be adding to it slowly over a few weeks/months... I wouldn't expect to have any sort of live organisms with that starting cash.

Unleash Hermi onto this thread!

paging Hermi to this thread

First of all go and work out what you want to keep, as that effects all other considerations.

Second borrow or buy a book. You will need to know how to treat certain conditions (algae blooms, white spot, worms, TB) when (not if) you stuff up. And there is a moderate ammount to learn.

Third find a good local fish store, one that doesn't talk bulls***.

But ok, I'll assume given your budget small tropical and you have done some reading (on water chemistry, nitrogen cycles as a minimum).

Tank, don't go any smaller then 2*1*1 (60*30*30). Bigger is better.
Filtration ... depends on what you are keeping. For a reef 20 times an hour is not that over the top, for standard tropical freshwater 4 times is fine.
Heater, yes for most fish, even in Brisbane.

Gravel / sand ... well bare is ugly but clean, very deep beds are sometimes used to denitrify a tank (in theory).

Lighting, another complicated problem. Fish only ? ... just what you need to see it. Live plants, minimum 2 fluro tubes of appropriate colour temperature and spectrum (tubes = same length as tank). Reef halides or lots of fluro.

Decoration, personally I go for a natural look. You however are more then welcome to put whatever crap you like.


Personally for a beginner with your budget.
2*1*1
heater
filter (3-5 times an hour turnover, any style is ok each has its pro's and cons)
a little sand/gravel (no more then 1 cm thick)
plastic plants.
a light fiting.
dechlorinator
net
a bucket
a gravel cleaner/syphon
food
(Use ebay and the tradding post to get bargains, but know things values and always ask to see a tank filled if second hand so you know its not leaking)

As for fish. Find stuff you like, then go read about it. Alot of fish stores will say anything to get you to buy it.

Personally. In a tank that small. 1 or 2 convicts(or other dwarf cichlid) OR a few native rainbows OR a few live breeders (mollies, sword tales, platties, guppies). To start with. Then leave em and see how things go. Whenever you add stuff do it in small ammounts.

After you add water, try to leave it for a week. 2 is better. I usually leave a completely new setup for 4 weeks.

Other things I try to do in freshwater.
1. Get your fish used to your tap water, you can keep almost anything in brisbane water onces its been declorinated. Water conditioners are expensive, and mostly pointless.
2. Once things are stable. Do not over test water, once a week absolutely max. I only say this because if you are testing there is a tendancy to randomly add chemicals to correct stuff. Once your cycle is complete stability is more important then any particular number. IN a small tank with out plants your will have to be vigilant with water changes.
3. Do not over feed your fish. Your fish will survive a week or more with out you feeding them. They have small stomachs (well the stuff in a 2footer will be small).

Awesome post obes.

First what I want to keep... I'll give you my "dream" tank and you can rip it to bits and shoot it down because it just won't work (or I'm too poor) :). I would like to have as much variety as possible, not just fish. I would definetely like to have live plants... I would like to have some snails in there too... I would LOVE to have any sort of invertebrates in there. I would like a natural environment, something that is more dynamic then a fish only tank.

Book, yep, goes without saying that I will read as much as possible. I will have to get some basic aquarium specific knowledge... but I've got basic chemistry and biology knowledge from Uni, so nitrogen cycles and water chem I can handle.

Fish store, I'll get searching after I have some sort of general idea so it's not a complete waste of time.

Filtration, check. Heater, check. Sand/gravel, definetely as I want the environment to be as natural as possible.

Lights, I will have to look into how expensive they are, how much they cost to the run... plus in general how I hook them up above a tank (hood?).

Alright, to finish it off, a complete farking noob question. How do you change the water in a tank (and how long does it take)? I'm trying to think, but all I can think of is either tipping it out (not likely??) or having a special pump that takes it out. If so, do I just net the fish and transfer them to a bucket with the appropiate water?

do you really have time for a new hobby chubs?
really hmmmm?

It's not a new hobby, I'm replacing my TV with some funky little sea creatures.

Less Big Brother, more mini-ecosystems.

CHUB just wants fish so he can practice stabbing on a moving target.

fish will be an extremely poor replacement for big brother

i can tell you that now

Water changing depends on the tank size.

For 2*1*1 and bigger... siphon a third out and replace it via a bucket.

In winter need to be careful of temperature (not so much of an issue here).

That said. If you make a balanced ecosystem, you can seriously go months with out water changes (low stocking levels, some form of denitrification or nitrogen export my 2 fish tanks both small, have been 3 months without water changes and have NO2 levels less then 10ppm).

Lighting needs is determined by your live plants.

Inverts in freshwater generally suck.

As for your tank.
You can design a biotope, Or you can go random.

Most people do actually do a rough biotope effort.
ie. Rift lakes, black water, central american or native.

Cool Obes, sounds good!

Lighting needs is determined by your live plants.

Inverts in freshwater generally suck.

Well I definetely want live plants, I guess I need some more knowledge before I suss this out... surely running lights 24/7 is expensive though :)

So I will just have fishies in a freshwater? No other little critters wobbling about? :(

Can't even get some snails? :)

just knife the guy at the pet shop for some fish

Well I definetely want live plants, I guess I need some more knowledge before I suss this out... surely running lights 24/7 is expensive though :)

Who said 24/7 lights ? ... that will stress both your plants and critters.
By lighting requirements I mean, spectrum/colour and wattage. Lighting period will generally be between 8 - 14 hours (buy a 9 timer from Bunnings). Some plants have low lighting requirements eg. Java fern, some have higher ones. Roughly 3-5 fluro/halide/led watts per US gallon. But depth of plant does effect that. Some fish are totally incompatible with plants (most cichlids).
Power Costs ? ... yup it costs.

So I will just have fishies in a freshwater? No other little critters wobbling about? :(

Crabs/Crays/Yabbies are food or eat your fish. But you're welcome to try. Clams and mussles are great right up until they die and crash your tank. Freshwater sponges are RARE (in Australia)... they come only from the rift lakes AFAIK. No freshwater corals or anenomes. So yeah freshwater inverts either suck or are boring.

Can't even get some snails? :)

Fine, but boring. Personally I only like marine snails.

On a side note.
You could actually buy the gear, then go collecting native fish (with in the laws).

Just get a bigass tank & keep lobsters. At least then you can stab them and eat them.

So I'm going to take a wild guess here and assume a saltwater tank is way out of my league?

You've cleared up a lot of things. I need to start reading about some fishes and plants... see what works together, how much lights cost to run 8-14 hours a day and start browsing for a 2x1x1 tank (perfect size for my dresser).

Saltwater is a heap more learning. pH, Alkalinity, nitrogen cycle is hugely more important, mg, ca, salinity... and how each interacts with the other. Not to mention they are extremely sensitive to things like copper. Filtration in saltwater is a huge arguement in itself.

Buckets of money... buckets & buckets... A good skimmer is minimum $200, a crappy chiller $350. Lights even on a 2*1*1 is going to cost you $200.

Skimmer, heater, chiller, much bigger lights, live rock, heaps more water pumps... more test kits, extra water storage for emergencies.

I'd suggest a good 12 months keeping freshwater stuff alive before considering marine.

That said they are awesome. Even marine pests like the Mantris shrimp are uber.
http://www.eco-divers.com/peterlange/15.jpg

... must resist temptation to s*** stir chub ...

I would say also that in a small tank less is more. Although it's tempting to pack it with all sorts of little bits and pieces (animals, plants etc) keeping things relatively simple will ensure you learn as you go. Too many variables means that if something goes wrong it is much more difficult to trouble shoot.

If you are planning on having more than one species you will need to know whether they are compatible.

Also it's best to choose hardier breeds when starting out. Then you don't have to worry as much about chemical balance etc. You will need to talk to your aquarium people about the best fish in your price range for your tank.
Keep in mind how big they will get and which fish suit your style of tank.

I recommend visiting the Aquarium on Old Cleveland Road just after you go through Stones Corner there on the right hand side up past the NAB. I think it's still called "Annerley Aquarium" (cos they used to be in Annerley). Nice bunch of people who will give you honest advice.

As for snails, I usually have a couple in there just for s***s and giggles. They don't live long though.


Make sure you post some pics of your tank when set up.

Also fluro lights cost f*** all to run. With a tank that size 2ft x 1 x 1 it doesn't even come into the equation.

Also get an air stone or something to aerate the water, as well as a filter. Looks good and helps yer fish breathe.

Cheers guys, if anyone has any more tips, feel free to post them.

I'll post a thread in a few weeks once I got it working :)

So I'm going to take a wild guess here and assume a saltwater tank is way out of my league?

For anyone on a budget, most definitely!

Also fluro lights cost f*** all to run

A watt is a watt regardless of what draws it.

eg. On a 2 footer, you could go 2 55 watt power compacts. That's 110 watts. A single 75 watt metal halide will actually draw less power. Heck on a reef you might even go 4 55 watt PCs.

So what's CHUB's story with the knife?

I read thru it.. but it didn't make sense to me :/

all I saw was a bunch of online geeks being made uncomfortable

I'd suggest a good 12 months keeping freshwater stuff alive before considering marine.

and dont plan on moving in the next 5 years!

So what's CHUB's story with the knife?

I carry around a large hunting knife on my belt for self defence.

Now gimme some extra advice Hermi dammit!

Anyone know any real close petstores near Wynnum that I could check out today before I make a bigger trip to the better ones.

i did what you're about to do a few months ago
my wife wanted a friggen fish so i had to get some friggen fish

got two commet goldfish and they're resilient little buggers
but f*** they s*** alot

my setup was about $400 in total, for 70L tank, filter, live plants etc

i would say the novelty is wearing off, every weekend i spend about 20 minutes syphoning their s*** from the tank

did i say they s*** a lot?

tank is looking disgusting now, green algae everywhere and plenty of fish turd stuck in the plants/decorations

seriously, they do s*** a lot

it is funny though, watching them swim around with this huge turd hanging out their arse. it then finally drops and the dumb fish f***ing tries to eat it like three times as it floats about the tank. sometimes the turd is so massive that i start to think its their intestine coming out

20 minutes? That's no problem :)

Did I mention I'm a student that doesn't have a job? All I got is free time, I'm overflowing with free time.

$400 for goldfish set up?

What a noob.

Also don't get goldfish etc. They are dirty and boring.

I suggest you look at some sort of pleco or bristlenose. They are bottom feeders/sucker fish and although they don't "clean" the tank as some people would have you believe, they do eat some of the crap and they are pretty cool. They don't do much but they can be put in with most other fish.

As far as your main fish maybe look at Gouramis. I found them to be pretty hardy. Clown loaches are pretty cool, although a bit more on the delicate side.

Depends on the fish as to how much water prep etc you do. I have Oscars and they are tough as nails. I have never checked pH etc and they are fine. However they need a much bigger tank. eg 3-4 foot.

Did I mention I'm a student that doesn't have a job? All I got is free time, I'm overflowing with free time.

ffs get a job then.

strange rash, if yur goldfish are s***ting too much you are feeding them too much &/or too high protiens. one problem with goldfish are they are so lacking in personality & boring that all they do is beg for food... so you feed them heaps & the tank gets dirty. lots of algae could be an indication of high nitrate levels in the water, or too much light & overfeeding. as obes n incredible_veg sed ... you don't have to get boring goldfish just coz they are resilient to bad conditions... lots of much more interesting fish are just as resilient.

i had a 2'x1'x1' tank for about 4 weeks before i wanted bigger tanks :] i got a 285litre 4'x18"x20" for $250 2nd hand with all the shiz (heater, filter, airpump, tubes, etc..) from queensland aquarium forums & have since built up another 4' tank by buying bit's n pieces 2nd hand... the 2nd system prolly cost me $400 all up but that was mainly coz i bought a brand new aqua-one canister filter. i spend about an hour every 2-3weeks doing water changes & replacing filter wool... & about 2-3hours a day just sitting watching them... ahh the tranquility ;]

i dont have much to add to obes n vegetables advice except to say that just because a fish will tolerate bad water conditions doesn't mean that it isn't doing the fish any harm. high nitrate levels n the water are not toxic until they get to like 1000ppm... but levels over 100ppm will have detrimental effects on the fish's longevity.

some fishpyx :]
my 4' tank with american cichlids ....
http://dem0n.qgl.org/images/fish/americans.jpg

my 4' tank with african cichlids ....
http://dem0n.qgl.org/images/fish/afriknz.jpg

a mate's 5' tank with natives' & tropicals ....
http://dem0n.qgl.org/images/fish/dethons.jpg

oh yeh... & i have a brown back crab in my african tank & it seems fine (had it for 2 weeks now) but the water in my african tank is brackish as freshwater crabs require.

Cheers veg and demon.

Those bottom feeders look funky, I would definetely like one to chill around eating stuff! I would love to get a bigger tank, but I live in shared housing so it wouldn't be very practical if I have to move around.

Well I'm not so lost now, I guess I just got to start sussing out my physical components while looking at what fishies to get. Thanks for the species advice veg, if anyone else can recommend some species to look at that would be greatly appreciated.

My 80L nano reef.
http://lh4.google.com/obes.au/RgXmJzerfiI/AAAAAAAAAoc/xtD8k3nA6Ss/s144/IMG_0002.JPG

That looks awesome Obes! That's ideally what I want to create in the future... marine just seems so lively.

How stable is that environment in a tank that small though?

No water changes for 3 months. Nitrates under 10ppm. Nitrite, Ammonia 0ppm. Alkalinity and ph are slightly higher then natural levels, but that's on purpose. I have 190L of water on hand in case of a crash (that's 2 complete tank empty and refills).

Its only a young tank. Just on 6 month.
Using natural sea water, And sea chem reef builder and calcium +3. Filtration is a DIY co-current skimmer (don't want to over skim) live rock, GAC and purigen. Flow is 19 times an hour. Lighting is 3*24watt PCs on a staged 13 hour lighting period and a CCF moon light (16hours a day). All LPS, softies and coralmorphs. With a rogue mantis somewhere...

I am a beginner at marine. So far I have found too many zealots in marine, everyone has a different "system", and as far as they are concerned there system is not only the best, but the only one that works.

the knife must surely come in handy for filleting too.

19 times per hour!#!@ :P it must be a frign whirlpool in there ;) my tanks only flow about 4times per hour n they both have a decent current in them! i know what ya mean about the zealots.. even though freshwater has less of them... you still get a lot of false or misleading information from kooks that have always done something a certain way & any other way must be wrong, & stupid. ;p

I had many fish, it was cool having them in my computer room, untill i could tell they didn't like the bass of some proper dnb, so had to move the fishies out :(

doh well.

I'm running a 3' fresh tank. Cycling at 4 per hour. I got Silver Sharks, Angels, Ruby Tetras, Rainbow Sharks and some Cooli Loaches. Once you get the water right as long as you swap out about 1/3 per month you'll find you won't have a problem. Couple of snails and the odd loach are good for keeping down the algae. As long as you get the right mix of fish they should be fine. I got enough of each type that they don't tend to bother with the others......only the Rainbow sharks get a little frisky, they seem to like chasing the angels every now and then. I leave the light on for about 10hrs each day, heater set to 26.

My next project will be to give marine a go, does seem a little more complicated but I thought that Fresh water would be after reading all the s*** that people post on the web. Might have to goto the obes fish school before I start.....

Alright, heading out today to buy my tank at least, going to check out some fish but probably won't buy.

http://www.aquariumwarehouse.com.au/

Hitting this place up first because it's really close, anybody had experience with these guys at all?

yeah, maybe buy ur fish only after the tank has settled/cycled

Yeah, realised that now :) Both stores I went to said a full 7 days with the filter running before I add any fish, and even then only add a couple to start off with.

I ended up getting a 12 x 15 x 12 glass tank... the extra height makes it look a bit better... I've washed the gravel and added it to the tank (did about 6 - 7cm).

I got filter, heater, and a double fluro light fixture for when I put some plants in.

Now I got to add in the water and neutralise the chlorine (as I understand it?).

yah add the right amount of chlorine neutraliser for your water capacity (the bottle will have the right ratio on it). turn your filter on & get the water cycling. invest in a cheapo thermometer & make sure your heater is keeping the water around 25c... dont just trust the marked heater thermostat as they can be dodgy. you dont have to wait for plants... they can go straight in. on a brand new system it's also a good idea to get a bottle of stuff called 'cycle' that promotes the growth of the correct bacteria in your filter to break down fishy wastes. shop guys will say wait a full 7 days for the fish but i never do :P just get something thats tuff n it'll be fine. i put a jewel cichlid in my brand new system after about 4hours of cycling & 2years later it's still a fat ugly healthy jewel cichlid :P

http://dem0n.qgl.org/images/fish/jewel640.jpg

based on my research, an ammonia test kit is critical for anyone starting a new tank...
definately don't put any fish in until the ammonia has been completely decomposed

unless you want to torture ur fish

of course i'm only regurgitating what i've read on the net:)

Alright, tank full, 54 drops of chlorine stuff in, filter going, heater cranking at 25 degree's, I got one of those black thin thermo's that you just stick to the side of your tank.

Lights hooked up, very bright :D I just need to find some natural decorations that will cover up the cords/heater/filter.

Now I got time to think about what fishies to get... a lot of the cool fishes today that the lady was showing me were a nice size (50 cent piece size), but then she would go "well that grow up to about 20 - 30cm". :S:S:S

I saw some very bright yellow mollies (I think that's what they're called?) that have like a beer gut on them, soo cool looking, will grab some of them at least :)

How big do the bristlenose grow to?

How big do convicts grow to also? They looked pretty cool.

Also I'm WELL under budget ($180 for everything minus the fish/plants).

Can any of you guru's recommend me a really good aquarium book so I can do some reading?

you usually only suffer nasty ammonia spikes if too many fish are added at once. i have a full water test kit & honestly i have never detected ammonia in any of my tanks. even with the water happily cycling through the filter the bacteria required to break down the ammonia won't start growing till it has some ammonia to eat (or unless some cycle is used). so i usually get a cheap tuff fish (like my jewel for $4) & it starts eating & s***ting & pissing... & that creates the ammonia which starts the bacteria growing & so the cycle of life begins ;p~

yer it can be a tuff decision of what fish to get for such a small tank... you definitely don't want fish that'll outgrow the tank. if you like mollies they would def be suitable even though i rekn they are boring & suck :D
bristlenoses grow around 15-20cms from memory but they grow pretty slow & don't mind crowded conditions coz the fukrz just hide under stuff all day anyway.
convicts grow to about 20cms as well... & they grow fast & will kill & eat yur mollies in no time :P

[edit] i wouldn't really bother with fish books unless you plan to get them at a library... they go out of date really quickly & all the info is on the mighty inermahnets anyway. i do recommend getting (torrenting is easyest) a dvd called 'instructional cichlid aquarum guide' by paul talbot. has all the useful info in easy to understand jargon... even tho the presenter is a bit of a fairy. ;p

last edited by demon at 16:43:12 20/Jul/07

imo, Honestly, don't waste money on any "bacteria" in a bottle.

Most of it will be dead. And more then likely it will be the wrong species of bacteria. Apparently bottles usually have Nitrobacter sp. (europea and winogradskyi), not the Nitrospira sp. that actually are what you need. Not to mention they pretty sensitive to light, temperature, water conditions etc so what's in the bottle may not survive in the tank. what the krib has archived

All you need to get the cycle happening is some form of nitrogen. A pinch of fish food will do, and time. Keep It Simple Stupid. Its a small tank so whatever you do, take your time.

Bristlenose 2-4" depending.
Convicts, 15cm would be a large one. Females tend to be smaller etc etc. (very territorial)

All you need to get the cycle happening is some form of nitrogen. A pinch of fish food will do, and time. Keep It Simple Stupid. Its a small tank so whatever you do, take your time.

Wait, what? I should put some fish food in now without any fish?

I don't think I want a 15cm fish that gobbles up all the other ones :( Seems like that would be too small for a 2 foot tank anyway. Are there any good "main" fish that will stay around 7 - 8cm max?

What about those tetra's? Do they stay really tiny like they are at the petshop?

Can I mix some tetra's, some mollies and some of those little sharks?

Wait, what? I should put some fish food in now without any fish?

Yup, it will help start the cycle. Some people would argue feeding the tank everyday as if it had fish during the cycle. I don't, i just feed once or twice to put a bio load in it.

I don't think I want a 15cm fish that gobbles up all the other ones :( Seems like that would be too small for a 2 foot tank anyway. Are there any good "main" fish that will stay around 7 - 8cm max?

Well "main" fish is subjective. You could go natives/rainbows heaps of choices there, but they are "low personality" fish.

Personally I'd go any of "dwarf cichlids". Apistograma, microgeophagus, nanochromis, neolampralogus/lampralogus, juliachromis, pelvicachrois are all suitable (excuse spellings).

Hemichromis (Jewels) imo get a bit large and a bit territorial.

ps. sharks (even the freshwater things that aren't related at all to sharks) are not little.

Mollies... honestly I only ever kept live bearers as feeders

Testra's sure. 2 Dwarf chichlids and a small school of tetras with a bristle nose would be fine (but take your time).

Alright awesome Obes! That sounds like an ideal tank for me. I'll add in the Cichlids last, I'll find a decent place (this place didn't a big variety of Cichlids).

So with the Tetra's, after I cycle for the 7 days how many should I add first off? Like 3 or 4? How long would I wait till I add more fish, another 7 days?

How many fish would you expect to have *eventually* in a 2 foot tank? Like 2 Cichlids, 8 - 10 Tetra's and like 2 (or just 1?) Bristlenoses? Does that seem that a decent mix with a few live plants... they won't be over crowded?

Well .. it depends on the cichlid and the tetra.

Hmmmm...

Well all the Tetra's I saw looked extremely tiny, I have no idea how big they grow :)

Google says the Dwarf Cichlids only grow to around 10 - 12cm, I would be right having 2 in the tank just from a noob guess? Wouldn't they get a bit lonely if you only had 1?

Get some convicts, they rock!

Could also get some Jack Dempseys too.

I don't like the idea of a 20cm fish in a 60cm long tank, just seems like too much of a squeeze.

Ok I'm looking at decorating my tank... I want some rocks (the ones that are semi/smooth and have lots of holes in them.. reddish, near the beach).

Is there anything I need to know? Can I just grab stuff off the beach and run it under water and scrub the s*** out of it?

Otherwise, where's the best place to get rocks? All the petstores I've been to, it costs like $70 for a decen sized FAKE rock... f*** that.

I've always found the best way to cycle a tank is a couple of hardy animals, like a feeder goldfish, or some baby redclaw. Some would argue that it unduly stresses them, but thankfully goldfish only have 20 second memories :P

When the tank is cycled just bury the goldfish under a basil bush or lettuce or something, yum charlie carp!

Well it's going to be 8 days anyway till I head back out to Underwood to the aquarium store to get my tetra's (they had about 10 - 15 species of tetra's there, seems like a nice selection)... so no rush really.

Can I mix tetra's? Or should I put all 1 kind in?

I'm mainly looking at doing the rocks this week, the tank looks so bloody plain... it's nice and warm though, I wouldn't mind being a fish, 26 degree water is mmmmmmmmmmm :D

Tetras are usually fine to mix. I found the staff over at the Underwood store to be a pretty good source of fish mixes. You should think about some Clown Loaches, they don't grow too big and are quite attractive. Angels are also nice, I bought 2 very small angels about 12mnths ago (about $8 each). They are huge now and thriving. Do stay away from annoying fish like tiger barbs as they will chase and annoy your other fish, also watch for any nippers that might go after the fancier fish tails, fins etc. I've always found that as long as you get most types of fish in groups of 3 or more they tend to leave the other fish alone.

Last time I'm bumping this thread, just hang with me.

Ok I'm buying my first fish on possibly tomorrow or on Thursday at the latest.

I've been looking at a few stores and the simple little Neon Tetra's look funky and only grow to around 3cm or so (the aquarium people have been saying, google seems to back it up)... this would mean I could have a nice little school of Neon's instead of a smaller school of larger 5 - 7cm Tetra's. The ones I've seen at petstores seem to really zoom around the tank and follow eachother about, seem like a pretty fun fish... any comments on Neons?

Now I checked out what was called a Dwarf Gourami, these guys looked really cool, they seemed a lot more relaxed then the Neons. Google says they only go up to 5cm, which would be a nice size to have 2 (or maybe 3?) in with the Neons, so they're not big enough to harm the little Tetra's. Any comments on this combinations?

I haven't seen any Dwarf Cichlid breeds around any of the stores, I'm wondering if I should put in the effort to find some? Will they be a good size for the tank (2ft) and will they get along with tiny Neon Tetra's?

So for a 2ft, a school of Neon's, 2 - 3 Dwarf Gourami and a Bristlenose... will this work with a planted aquarium? Will any of this species rip up my plants? What sort of food would I feed this setup? How many Neon's can I add initially to a tank that has been cycling by itself for 7 days?

Also, what do I look for at Bunnings in terms of a siphon and those timer things (is there something that will switch my hood lights on for 8 hours a day?).

Dwarves are fine with tetras.
Neon and cardinals are fine. With them more is better then less. They really need a school (5+).

The most common dwarves you will find in Brisbane that are suitable for the tank you are describing imo are (blue/gold/german/wild) Rams(sometimes called butteryfly, bolivian butterfly/ram, Kribs/Kribensis, Apistograma sp. (frequently sold with weird common names eg. Checkerboard).

Gourami's will also work. Some individuals can be bullies, but with enough of a school its a non issue.

A siphon is a piece of silicon tubing. Honestly get a gravel cleaner and replace the hosing. (Don't bother with self priming, in my experiences they don't work, well they do but they break eventually)

You can by a timer switch again from bunning for the $5-10 mark. The digital ones are cool etc etc, but they don't last as long as the mechanical ones.

ps. if you have any question on cichlids I have a heap of books, and about 10 years of the American Chichlid Association journals. So if you have questions about specific species I can find you a metric tonne of info, that said you mostly see the same few species.

*edit* avoid loaches. They are not a good beginner fish. They grow to 16" (most aquarists kill them befor they reach 6") and are a schooling fish (5+), like all members of their family are quite open to eating smaller fish (tho they are less likely to do it then most of the other members of their family). They are prone to ich and due to their "skin" aren't easy to treat. Not to mention really needing a small grain substrate (sand) and are naturally nocturnal (ie. they'd rather be in the dark sleeping during the day. That said they are a cool fish.

Wild angelfish eat neons ... but that's mostly bread out of domestic ones. And in the wild some species grow to 30cm+ tall, but the captive bred ones come from smaller species, Be lucky to hit 20cm tall and 15cm long.

Also some fish are definately 1 of that species per tank, eg. most territorial open spawners.
Some are pairs only eg. most american cichlids.
Some are schools eg. some african cichlids, most tetras.

last edited by Obes at 20:50:57 24/Jul/07

Ok awesome Obes! Well I still have a few weeks to sort out the Dwarf Cichlid or Gourmari situation, so I'll spend some time trying to find the right species for me.

So for the immediate future.

So I'm pretty set on the Neons that I'll be picking up tomorrow/Thurs. Would it be alright to put 5 or 6 in straight off into an empty tank? Is that too much of a load? Anything special I need to know here, or can I just open the bag and let them in?

What's the deal with aquatic plants? Do they just have a root system that you bury into the gravel? Do the aquarium places just pull them up and give them to you in a bag full of water? No problem adding plants the same time as the Neons?

They'll put the plants in a bag, but not full of water. They'll live until you put them in the tank.

You will probably need something to weigh tha plants down so they don't float to the top. You can get little 'sticks' (made of flexible metal stuff) which you can wrap around the base of the plant to keep them down.

Plants at the same time should be fine, at least it was for me.

My only advice is don't go the weak tropicals such as Neons, gouramis etc... go cichlids. Much hardier and more fun too :). Probably will need to go Africans if your gonna stick with a smaller tank.

my american tank. More shots here: http://members.optushome.com.au/exz0r/web/
http://members.optushome.com.au/exz0r3/resize

That's massive though :)

My tank is only like 60L.

I still recommend baby africans or something.. get a heap of eletric yellows, blues, lombardios etc.. ?

A heap of 4 to 6 inch fish in a 60l tank ? .... great advice.

(Could go a heap of dwarf africans tho ... shell dwellers are cool)

So Obes, 5 to 6 Neon's, I can just open the bag and let them swim in? That's not too many fish?

I don't want them to be loney :)

Leave the bag done up and let em float for 5-10 mins or so (temp balance)
then open the bag and mix some tank water in, a little bit every couple of mins, do that a couple of times (chem balance). You can go even further and use drip methods (seen it done for expensive marine stuff).

Or just pour them in (1 big shock vs. lots of little ones)


Personally I vote (and use) the first method, but the second probably is just as logical.

Excruci@ting, damn dude!
Your tanks come a long way mate :) Looks a bit familiar tho ;P

ps, My Saratoga (70cm) just ate one of my edit Jack Dempseys damn you step, you know I always confuse the names of fish you dump in my tank! Texas (approx 6" long)!

One of my juv Festaes has developed a togar mouth sized scar that is almost 4" in length!

last edited by HERMITech at 00:04:59 26/Jul/07

ps, My Saratoga (70cm) just ate one of my Jack Dempseys (approx 6" long)!

Um you mean one of the Texas cichlids?

ps, My Saratoga (70cm) just ate one of my Jack Dempseys (approx 6" long)!

wicked! good to hear the little fella is doing well :)

I'd love to do a big native tank.
Saratoga, Jack, Grunters, etc Only problem is they are all aggressive carnivore/piscavores.

Yay! 1.5 weeks and a few dollars later with the help of my QGL comrades!

Got some nice looking plants in my aquarium now.

Also got 10 little/young (probably 1cm) Rummy Nose Tetra's :D

Mega thanks to Obes especially, also to Demon, Incred Veg and anyone else that helped out :D I'll start another thread in probably 2 - 3 weeks when I plan to start adding another species!

nps chub. rummynoses are pretty cool tetras... a mate used to have a big school of 'em but they dwindled away due to a fast growing blue acara & some odd parasite we called 'bungeye' coz it made thier eyes bulge out!
http://dem0n.qgl.org/images/fish/bungeye.jpg

I'd love to do a big native tank.
Saratoga, Jack, Grunters, etc Only problem is they are all aggressive carnivore/piscavores.

that's a problem? ;) i call it a biological solution to overcrowding ;D my american cichlid tank is currently too overcrowded & my biological solution (in the form of a dovii cichlid) isn't growing fast enough damnits ;p he'll get there tho! he has doubled his size in 2weeks!@$#! :D

(in the form of a dovii cichlid)

So would love to see him in action.

Was so tempted to buy two little ones when Pet City had a bunch, but decided against and in an attempt to breed these bloody festae (which I have given up).

The Rummy Noses are being noobs :)

The sides of the tanks are reflective so it looks like there's more tetra's and they're grouping up :P

I'd love to do a big native tank.
Saratoga, Jack, Grunters, etc Only problem is they are all aggressive carnivore/piscavores.

It's totally doable, I had a Saratoga, 2 barra, and a Murray Cod in my 6' tank. it worked because the saratoga stays at the top, the barras in the middle and the cod down the bottom ( he needs structure though ).