So you mutually decide to call of the engagement with your partner.... your going your seperate ways. Should the lady return the ring to the fella or does one consider it a gift. What would you expect?

Do opinions change the higher the cost of the ring?

Surely the guy would not have contemplated it ever coming back to him... so should he really expect to see it again if you've broken up? If the guy was a wanker i would def keep it but when your on good terms it seems more appropriate to return it for some reason.

Surely the guy would not have contemplated it ever coming back to him.

He probably contemplated like you know... getting married as well.

If the woman breaks it off, she gives it back. If the bloke breaks it off, she keeps it. But then again, I think you will find most guys wont want it back and and come girls dont want to keep it.

Both decide, then in my opinion it should be talked through. Essentially it is the ladies ring but why would she want to keep it? Unless she is a money hungry sod who wants to pawn it - or even worse, "remember".


last edited by Kat at 15:26:58 03/Nov/06

well regardless of whether he's a wanker or not you should return it. For one if he has any hope that you may reconcile, giving him back the ring should shatter it.

isn't the ring spose to get thrown into the ocean in a dramatic scene?

He probably contemplated like you know... getting married as well.

obviously

For one if he has any hope that you may reconcile, giving him back the ring should shatter it.

haha thats awesome.

last edited by Velvet at 15:28:36 03/Nov/06

haha thats awesome.

One scorned woman right there

I let my fiancee keep her ring (man am I glad I dodged that bullet)
She got the ring, I got to keep the debt..
It was a good deal actually
what? no wait...

Just watch judge judy, the ring is the mans unless they get married at which point it becomes the womans as she has fulfilled her half of the contract.

One scorned woman right there

Didnt you see the velvet edrama thread? (I think loki was the other half in that drama)

last edited by Bah at 15:33:09 03/Nov/06

haha thats awesome.


One scorned woman right there

I dunno I thought it was pretty funny too

Refusing the gift

Women traditionally refuse offers of marriage by refusing to take the offered engagement ring.

In the United States, engagement rings are considered "conditional gifts" under the legal rules of Property. This is an exception to the general rule that gifts cannot be revoked once properly given. See for example Meyer v. Mitnick, 625 N.W.2d 136 (Michigan, 2001), finding the following reasoning persuasive; "the so-called, "modern trend," holds that because an engagement ring is an inherently conditional gift, once the engagement has been broken the ring should be returned to the donor. Thus, the question of who broke the engagement and why, or who was "at fault," is irrelevant. This is the no-fault line of cases."

Tradition generally holds that if the betrothal fails because the man pursues other women or himself breaks off the engagement, the woman is not obliged to return the ring. Legally, this condition can be subject to either a modified or a strict fault rule. Under the former, the fiancé can demand the return of the ring unless he breaks the engagement. Under the latter, the fiancé is entitled to the return unless his actions caused the breakup of the relationship, the same as the traditional approach. However, a no-fault rule is being advanced in some jurisdictions, under which the fiancé is always entitled to the return of the ring. The ring only becomes the property of the woman when marriage occurs. An unconditional gift approach is another possibility, wherein the ring is always treated as a gift, to be kept by the fiancée whether or not the relationship progresses to marriage. [1]

Wiki knows the truth!

Didnt you see the velvet edrama thread? (I think loki was the other half in that drama)

how long ago? I haven't seen any lately

last edited by Kat at 15:36:33 03/Nov/06

sif marriage

One scorned woman right there

aawww come on... it was funny!

I was always under the impression it should be given back if the engagement is to be called off by either party.

How rude would you have to be to keep a thousand dollar ring that was signifying love if your relationship with that person was ending?, your either spiting that person badly or just a whore.

if it was a mutual breakoff, i dont think he should request the ring back. if it was the girl, yes he should. if he was the one that broke it off, then no.

thousand dollar? thats way cheap...

I was being conservative, plus I don't think I could afford a several thousand dollar ring for some time :/, that makes the point even more poignant then as the price scales, should he give her the keys to his car and house too?

yeh i think it is more admirable to give it back.

I'd tell her to keep the ring but her other ring will always be mine.

Ba dom tish.

2 months salary boys, thats whats expected :o

Expected by who? Some stupid money hungry $ sign whore?

yeh i think many women don't "expect" anything.

onion rings for j00

*Xy's respect for Kat and Velvet jumps up a notch or three*

In my opinion if a man (or woman) wants to propose the first question in relation to the ring should be "What would s/he like? What style/cut/etc ring would they be happy with wearing for the rest of their life?" not "Okay, I have $xx amount to spend"

Yes, sometimes the perfect ring is expensive but price shouldn't be the first factor.

The ring is a symbol of commitment and a contract of marriage. It shouldn't be about how much money you can wear around on your finger

i basically chose the ring and picked what i wanted, and the price was secondary to that

With a house and renovations I can hardly afford to anything atm, let alone spend that much cash on a ring :(

well the one thing we said was that even if we had a much larger budget, i dont think we wouldve gone any bigger than what we did, it ended up being a perfect size and proportion. but so many people told me that it had to be 2 months slary, sif i can save that much :)

Roight.

The purpose of a ring is not to show how much you love the person you are proposing to. Despite what purveyors of jewelery would have you (and more importantly, the girl) believe.

Engagement rings are a modern practice (20th century), started in the US.

Prior to some date I can't be arsed to recall - if a man broke off an engagement and the couple had already consummated the relationship (yes, young people have always done that before marriage) then the would-be bride could sue the would-be groom for Breach of Promise because it could be reasonably argued that he had damaged her prospects of a later good marriage.

When the ability to sue for Breach of Promise went out the window the custom of presenting a girl with an expensive gift (a ring became the "in" thing and stayed that way) appeared. The idea of course being that if the engagement broke off she could sell the gift and recoup some losses. Custom was (and I guess still is) to buy the most expensive ring you could manage to afford. Is this the best thing that ever happened to jewelers or what? :)

Personally I think that people shouldn't give engagement rings anymore because:

A.) The Americans came up with it, thus it is an American custom.
B.) It is is ludicrously old fashioned. Breach of Promise my arse. I bet it was the girl who instigated it half the time.
C.) It is just generally embarrassing. Especially when both couples wear rings. Again, Americans there.

As for the OP's dilemma, by custom if you had sex you get to keep it. But then you probably had a job before you got engaged and still do now so you never really needed the ring in the first place. And, though I have no f*ing idea who you are you likely weren't a virgin before getting engaged. And who wants a reminder of a failed engagement to wear all the time?

So there. Give it back and that way there will be less ill feeling afterwards and you can claim to be a modern woman.

I can think of many things better to spend that much money on, like a house deposit, or the actual wedding. Why should the guy have to fork out so much money for a ring that only benifits one person? (Yes, I am single atm)

It really depends on who pulls out.

Nothing is Mutual.

Chick should DEFINATELY give it back. I've heard of heaps of whores who try and keep it though.

2 months salary boys, thats whats expected :o

Holy crap, who comes up with these rules of thumb!? I almost had a heart attack when I read that. (Reaction: "20 GRAND!?!?!? ON A FSCKING ENGAGEMENT RING!?")

2 months salary boys, thats whats expected :o

you are deadset on crack tung baby

i could think of a million things way more important to spend cash on

if my girl expected that much spent on a ring, id axe her

Holy crap, who comes up with these rules of thumb!? I almost had a heart attack when I read that. (Reaction: "20 GRAND!?!?!? ON A FSCKING ENGAGEMENT RING!?")

I almost had a vomit attack when I read that

huh?

I think he meant.
This is a thread aobut returning engagement rings.

Not 'tell us how big your e-penis is by quoting how mcuh you supposedly make a year' thread,

Good thing I just picked an arbitrary figure out of thin air then hey (at least for what I posted here)?

This is the first thread I've ever read that I haven't thought Kat was a stupid whore.

I almost had a vomit attack when I read that

He spelt "f***ing" wrong... "fscking" isn't a word! That's why I almost vomited. That and the M&Ms I've been eating all afternoon...

Yah i have to sat, dice has overtaken kat in my qgl most hated polls. In fact, kat isnt annoying me at all anymore...must be cos she's stopped posting crap threads. props to her. Dice on the other hand, is a stain on this forum.

While we're on this topic (or rather, to try to get the conversation remotely back onto the original question), am I the only one who doesn't see what there is in diamonds? I mean, ultimately most girls are going to prefer diamons, but personally I find things like Emerald, Ruby, Saphire, Topaz etc to be far more interesting. Has anyone here ever given/received a ring that's anything other than diamond?

My wifes engagment ring is a sapphire with diamonds around it. I don't understand the fascination with the clear diamonds stuff either...

Once upon a time the gift of a ring as a proposal of marriage actually conveyed meaning, now it "yo bitch, I know you ain't no hoe but how much to rent you for the meantime"

It's the engagement presents that your DEFINATELY sposed to give back (if you had an engagement party)

2 months salary, what the f***.

That's $2000, and I work 12 - 14 hours a week at IGA.

My theory. If the guy breaks it off, the women can either keep it or return it. If the girl breaks it off, she can DIAF if she wants to keep the ring (unless the guy says she can have it).

.It's the engagement presents that your DEFINATELY sposed to give back (if you had an engagement party)

I HATE THE DRAKE!!

Yeah the whole diamond thing is retarded. Anyone who knows anything knows that diamonds aren't as rare as say, rubies or emeralds, but they have been brainwashed into believing that they are the duck's nuts of gemstones.

DeBeers own everyone for successful marketing. Personally I think emeralds and sapphires are the best looking stones.

lol can i just say tung's idea of 2 months came from a magazine, not from me :P i requested that less than $1000 be spent because I thought it was a waste of money..

also chicks should give rings back. it's a conditional on marriage, and if you don't get married you give it back. someone said that already.

For anyone a little curious about how DeBeers operate and some synthetic diamond info, this article would have to be the best article I've ever read, period :)

Wired Magazine - The new diamond age (Joshua Davis)

i spent nealy $3k on our engagement ring. But i also imported it from her home country (south african diamonds and gold top notch) and also designed it. Then i got it made by the same jeweller that made her mothers engagement ring. This all ment something to her not the price. i paid $xx its worth nearly twice that now after i had it evaluated for insurance.

do something that means something to both of you and it will mean more. money isnt that important. look at it this way $3k / 30+ years of marriage = $100 or less. thats cheap as chips. the sex you get for a special ring, PRICELESS!!!

you want to get the ring back so you can use it on someone else, dont let some filthy 2nd grade bitch keep it, if you have trouble getting the ring back threaten to take the kids, its just a threat cause duh asif you want them and needy bitches are all clucky and love kids and will take kids over the ring any day. if you dont have kids then i dont know why the f*** you would be getting engaged anyway so your on yoru own. f***ing gimps

give it to your favourite hobbit and let them take care of it

Sif have kids before you're married.

Seriously though, once a relationship is over what girl would want to keep the ring that means so much. I cant imagine ever wanting to wear a ring that is a constant reminder of a failed relationship.

That cant be healthy

what would miss manners do?

Sif have kids before you're married.

Edited for truth

if she breaks it off or its mutual then give it back. at contract law this is void abinitio.

if he breaks it off it's hers as monetary damages. it's all about the contact law really.

last edited by infi at 23:37:25 03/Nov/06

once a relationship is over what girl would want to keep the ring that means so much

They would want to keep it to screw the guy over I imagine, as he msot likely paid for it.

^^ and is most likely still paying it off in some cases with big rocks to impress gold diggers

if ur a broke nigga

In my opinion if a man (or woman) wants to propose the first question in relation to the ring should be "What would s/he like? What style/cut/etc ring would they be happy with wearing for the rest of their life?" not "Okay, I have $xx amount to spend"

What a cop out. If you don't even know what ring would blow her off her feet and you can't suprise her out of the blue she aint the one for you.

The big issue is how do you feel about diamonds and giving in to the debeers cartel since the whole 'diamonds are forever' thing is just advertising and the diamond trade has significant involvement in funding wars and bringing harm to people. But diamonds are impressive and a diamond ring makes an excellent engagement gift.

If you are a guy about to 'invest' in a ring, checkout GoldeNet.com.au, you won't find prices anywhere near that retail, and they provide quick service. Just ensure that they don't engrave the ring, the one i got had the company name engraved in the band and i had to get it taken off, but otherwise, you've got a saving of $1000-$2500 depending on what you looking at, over normal retail 'for you only' prices. So you can go up a grade, i.e. if you were planning on getting a half carat ring you can now get 3/4 carat for roughly the same price.

With it costing me $58 to have the ring re-sized and the engraving removed, that's a significant saving over every store i went to in Canberra and the best price i could get on the type of thing i wanted.

heh I didn't know what ring would blow my wife off her feet when I was buying an engagement ring. Our 17th anniversary is coming up in January, but maybe she aint the one for me :)

The ring is ment to be a symbol for the eternal, never ending love you have for someone. If you truly love someone then it should be unconditional, meaning that no matter what the other person does, you will always love them. Even if they end up hating you, your love should still be there as it is unconditional. You can move on and love another in the same unconditional way, the heart is mighty big for that.

That being said, the ring is still doing its job weather the engagment is off or on, so she should keep it and do whatever she wants with it.


As an aside,

Spending $1000 or so on a ring is so a lazy mans way of doing it. 'Hi I spend this money that I worked for on your ring, which I was going to earn anyway so it was no real effort, yer I spose I could have spent that money on myself and that is the only sacrifice I could be bothered to do.'

To me, working hard for money, then using that money to fund a trip where you mine your own stone, cut and polish it, have it set, design the ring, have the ring built then give it to her shows waaayy more commitment then simply buying a ring.

hey good idea
where were you 17 years ago, damnit!

if a woman's love is unconditional then a crappy ring should not matter :D

What a cop out. If you don't even know what ring would blow her off her feet and you can't suprise her out of the blue she aint the one for you.

I agree, my comment was that the style of the ring and the symbol should be the first thought and the 'amount' should come a distant last.

If you truly love someone then it should be unconditional, meaning that no matter what the other person does, you will always love them.

What rubbish. Put down the Mills & Boon and get with the real world. You've obviously never had your heart ripped out by a woman (man?).

Man this sounds like it is going to be sooooo much effort.

What rubbish. Put down the Mills & Boon and get with the real world. You've obviously never had your heart ripped out by a woman (man?).

Sure have, like most people.
I've learnt from it tho.

where were you 17 years ago, damnit!

Still in his daddy's vans deferns

Haha my g/f just said she'd give it back... UNLESS... she said if she got screwed over she woudl sell the ring for $1 and then give her ex 50% of the profit:D

You have been warned Billy.

So Billy's gonna get 50 cents.

^ Maybe that's how 50 cent got his name? :P

The connection is uncanny!

Where can i buy one of those man-made diamonds in the article?

http://www.diamondnexuslabs.com/jewelry/index.php

sweet ha! and she'll neeeever know...

last edited by Le Cock at 19:15:34 04/Nov/06

Still in his daddy's vans deferns

Well actually that would have been about 10 years prior to that 17 years ago, well more so in the testies, dont spend too long in the ductus deferens. :/

A girl I know's best friend was engaged to this guy and she broke off the engagement with him and kept the $15k engagement ring.

A year later they ended up getting back together and he proposed again (how stupid is he) and she asked for another ring, at which time he reminded her that she already had the first ring.

She then told him that that ring was for their last engagement not this one. He then tells her he doesn't have the money to buy another ring so she then tells him, wait for it, TO SELL HIS CAR to buy another.

At this point i asked my friend to stop telling me the story, because i just didn't want to know how it ended.

Suffice to say, her friend was a money hungry material girl.

if it was a mutual breakoff, i dont think he should request the ring back. if it was the girl, yes he should. if he was the one that broke it off, then no.

I agree.

But the ring is symbolic of the impending marriage!!! If there's no marriage happening anymore, then the meaning of the ring is totally lost and it is reduced to being a valuable rock set in a valuable band ie. it has monetary value only. Thus, being reduced to nothing more than a material possession it should be returned to it's rightful owner - the person who paid for it.

I see the woman keeping the ring is conditional on her actually marrying the guy who gave it to her. Don't care who calls it off.

Why would a chick want to keep a ring if the wedding wasnt gonna happen anyway? There is absolutely no reason unless she's a greedy money hungry gold digging bitch.

^Or the guy has screwed her over by cheating on her or something.

Otherwise, I agree with u.

All I can say is.. .if you buy a ring that can easily be bent out of shape, oor by say, biting it?, then it is your own fault for not buying one of good enough quality

As for being a greedy money hungry gold digging bitch, most women are

But the ring is symbolic of the impending marriage!!! If there's no marriage happening anymore, then the meaning of the ring is totally lost and it is reduced to being a valuable rock set in a valuable band ie. it has monetary value only. Thus, being reduced to nothing more than a material possession it should be returned to it's rightful owner - the person who paid for it.

Hmmm, I guess I would see an engagement ring as having more of a sentimental value. Anyone you get engaged to is worth remembering and I'd see it as a token of all the happy memories you had. Having said that, there's not one solution for all couples, there's a right thing to do for each couple and their unique situation.

I see the woman keeping the ring is conditional on her actually marrying the guy who gave it to her. Don't care who calls it off.

If the guy cheats on the girl or breaks off the engagement I dont understand how he could believe he has any right getting the ring back in the first place. He shouldn't have proposed to begin with.

The ring is for the engagement, if the engagement is broken off, the ring goes back. Simple as that.

Corrupt wins.

If there's no ring there's no engagement.
If there's no engagement there's no ring.



and

If the guy cheated then the ring would have even LESS sentimental value to the chick so there'd be definately no reason to keep it other than wanting a big shiny expensive rock that u didn't pay for.

Marriage is a three ring circus: engagement ring, wedding ring and the suffering.

I get to keep the engagement and the wedding rings, she can keep the suffering and her butthole.

Gee, original much?

U should have said "butt ring" instead of "butthole"

As for being a greedy money hungry gold digging bitch, most women are

wow Kat, thanks for proving again how clueless you are. Every now and then you make an intelligent comment but you are kind enough to back it up with something like the above, just so we don't forget your true nature.

That's what makes it original, KAT

wow Kat, thanks for proving again how clueless you are. Every now and then you make an intelligent comment but you are kind enough to back it up with something like the above, just so we don't forget your true nature.

See, normally I would bother entering into a discussion here but the fact you have 11 posts, pretend that you have a clue about who I am, and that your post makes no real sense - just not worth it.

here have a cookie instead

That's what makes it original, KAT

Don't hate :D

Yeah seriously if the woman decided for some reason she was gonna keep the ring I would do thousands of damage to her car/house.

We're not talking chump change, for alot of people they spend well over 10k of hard earned money. Women are mostly f***ing slags anyway though.

wow, feeling the love there from spoon.

Seriously it's not worth it, one would argue if you were willing to do something so spiteful to someone more fool them for going out with you in the first place.

Learn your lesson and move along.

As far as the ring thing goes, pretty much what was said above, but it is unique to each situation. If you cheated on your partner and then demanded the ring back, you are a lowlife.

I know I wouldn't go asking for it back in either situation as it is

I know I would be pretty sure of who I gave a ring to it would be a sign of some level of commitment, and I would like to think I wouldn't end up going out with a clone of the same person afterward, such that they would necessarily want exactly the same ring anyway.

However, that is not to say I would not be somewhat disappointed if they didn't at least offer it back ;) But once again more fool me for being such a bad judge of character for that to be the case.

last edited by Predator at 23:57:49 05/Nov/06

the fact you have 11 posts

kat, you are a perfect example of post count not equalling a clue.

the two are not connected in any shape way or form.

Why spend a fortune on the rings ?

Can you live in the ring ?
Is the ring some cool overseas destination that you can experience ?

Or is some random pieces of minerals that have been given some arbitary value that if you go in to debt for actually increase the stress of marriage and actually increase the chance it will fail ?

The whole wedding industry is a rip job, most of the traditions are new.

In Braveheart they exchanged some crumby little embroidered things and stuff!

hey kat:

All I can say is.. .if you buy a ring that can easily be bent out of shape, oor by say, biting it?, then it is your own fault for not buying one of good enough quality

actually the more valuable the ring the softer it is. it shows more purity of the gold, or platinum used in the band - so your point is moot :)

the higher the carat the softer the metal yes.... but if the band was thicker and it had stones in it, it would be a lot harder to do

moreover its a lot harder to do significant damage, even with a thick shoulder part to the band, you can still slightly egg shape a ring and score marks are still easy

late weigh in, but basically I'd expect the ring back

trog proposed to me once but then cheated on me with jim so i kept his bandana

and then I saw it on ebay :(

what would happen on the OC? that is basically real life.

There would be a lot of sullen moping, then Ryan would hit something causing bleeding somewhere, Seth would make a joke, and Summer would continue to be f***ing sexy.

nice summation nats!

someone watches too much oc.. aye aye aye

Wait wait wait everyone, I've seen a tv commerical about this..

She takes your ring to cash converters, and buys a new dress with the money, then goes to a party and picks up a new guy (they have sex, you don't), and she feels smart and clever. Her and cash converters profit.

hahahahaha

LIFE IS GOOD.

If either party cheats and the engagement is off, ring still goes back to buyer.

Whow.

Ok, Im going to attack this from a sentimental perspective, which I think we can do because the bottom line in the scenario is two people who love one another making the promise to be together.
Im with the person I know I want to spend my life with. Id like there to be an 'exchange' of rings in this little premarital commitment. If the whole modern symbolism is the ring as a sign of commitment and eternity or whatever then why should the woman be the only person so have this prior to the formal marriage?

I dont believe in spending a rediculous amount of money on a ring, but I will say this - If that ring is something that I am going to wear every day for the rest of my life, then I want to be happy with it, which isnt unreasonable. Sentimentality over $$. A ring that meant something like a family antique or was designed for me or whatever would mean alot more then how much moola was forked out.

In keeping the ring. If I was engaged to someone, and thought that I was going to spend my life with this person, and then they cheated on me, I could totally see myself being vindictive enough to want to keep the ring to sell or something. Or on the other hand I may be so hurt I want nothing to do with it.
If I were the one to break it off and the ring had been bought for me then it would be returned without hesitation. If it was an absolute and purely mutal agreement, it should also go back to the buyer.

As for all woman being dirty gold digging whores... STFU and stop being so retarded.

but they are

I am a female and even I agree that 99.9% of women are.

99.9% isn't ALL. I am submitting that ALL are.

I'm guessing you're including yourself as part of that statistic kat?

What I think doesn't matter, when it comes to issues like that it should be taken from the boyfriends perspective.

He would put me in the .01%

If 0 = minimumal then 99% = ALL...

But then I strongly believe 0 is no apples and 1 apple is the minimum ammount of apples. Well maybe less if you are going to apply a decimal value to part apples, but there still has to be some apple.

0.9999~ == 1 apple.

0 is maximum amount of engagement ring any woman should have.

I am a female and even I agree that 99.9% of women are.

He would put me in the .01%

hehe

I can claim that I didn't put enough 9's or claim I put in a 0 when I didn't mean to.

Either way I am stuffed, so flame away

20 May 2007, Courier Mail

The New South Wales Supreme Court has ruled that Vicky Pappas must repay her former fiancee, Andrew Vacopoulos, $15,000 after she threw the engagement ring away following the end of their engagement.

The engagement lasted one day. In a bid to salvage the relationship Vacopoulos said:"I do not want the ring. It is a gift for you, you can keep it." Then several months later his lawyers wrote to Pappas seeking the ring back.

Acting Justice Rex Smart said the principles of law dictated that Pappas should have returned the ring upon her decision to end the relationship.

Makes sense to me

http://www.hhcc.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/Back_to_the_Future.jpg