Well, it's hardly a surprise to hear that the Judge in the Dover intelligent design trial has rules that ID is nothing but rebadged creationism and has no place in science class.

source

The judgement was particularly scathing of the fundies on the school board, and used the phrase "breathtaking inanity" to describe the tennants of ID.

link to .pdf of actual ruling

this is a good day for science, education and rationality. Lets keep bronze-age mythology where it belongs: church and philosophy class.

KO.

Where is your god now ?!?

Amen to that.

CNN:

In an opinion issued Tuesday, U.S. District Judge John Jones ruled that teaching "intelligent design" would violate the Constitutional separation of church and state.

"We have concluded that it is not [science], and moreover that ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents," Jones writes in his 139-page opinion posted on the court's Web site

Emphasis mine - not sure what [science] was before it was edited in the CNN document though.

last edited by trog at 11:15:21 21/Dec/05

I think it was 'true'

commonsense prevails!

How can anyone claim that saying things are created by a higher power is science?

Stoopid!

This is what happens when someone like Bush get's in power.

Now that cannot start upo their ID universities and ID degrees. One less scam for the church.

thank god

Next task: Dismantling the church.

These people are scum, no better than Scientologists, brainwashing people from a young age when they can't believe reason.

These people are scum, no better than Scientologists, brainwashing people from a young age when they can't believe reason.

matey, thats religion

I knew this would be the result due to my aggressive quantum superpositioning manipulating the waves of possibilities into a hard, testable particle of experience. :D

ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

i've been reading throught the full ruling, have a look at this little bit

In the midst of this panoply, there arose the astonishing story of an evolution
mural that was taken from a classroom and destroyed in 2002 by Larry Reeser. Reeser asked Buckingham where he had received a picture of the evolution mural that had been torn down and incinerated. Jen Miller testified that Buckingham responded: “I gleefully watched it burn.” (12:118 (J. Miller)). Buckingham disliked the mural because he thought it advocated the theory of evolution, particularly common ancestry. (26:120 (Baksa)). Burning the evolutionary mural apparently was insufficient for Buckingham, however. Instead, he demanded that the teachers agree that there would never again be a mural depicting evolution in any of the classrooms and in exchange, Buckingham would agree to support the purchase of the biology textbook in need by the students. (36:56-57 (Baksa).

I am gleefully reading about these f***ing idiot fundies get their self-righteous arses kicked.

Taken from the Wikipedia article on the case -

Closing arguments were made on 4 November 2005. Upon completion of the closing arguments, Mr Gillen asked Judge Jones, "By my reckoning, this is the 40th day since the trial began and tonight will be the 40th night, and I would like to know if you did that on purpose." To which the judge responded, "Mr. Gillen, that is an interesting coincidence, but it was not by design," eliciting laughter and applause from those present.

If god exsists then why hasn't it shown itself?

I believe we originated from pond scum.

Where is your god now ?!?

killing 11 people

trog when things are in brackets like that it means he was answering a question like "is ID science?" so the [science] is included for contextual reasons

So funny that they say there is no proof that it exists... wtf ? thought that was darwinism.. thought that was the bible.. thought that was me and your mum last night?!

meh.. all a load of s*** right?

thank god

i see what you did there

couldn't have said it better myself persay.

trog when things are in brackets like that it means he was answering a question like "is ID science?" so the [science] is included for contextual reasons

I know - but my point was its not what he actually said, and "its not science" is a pretty serious thing to say about it - I'd love it if he did though

This is what happens when someone like Bush get's in power.

VOTE BUSH OFF THE SCHOOL BOARD!

you can't totally discount religion. its not a bad thing to have certain values in life. the 10 commandments are ideals to live life by, for yourself and your community. they provided guidance for the community and people were/are reluctant to break them. alot of them also form the basis of our common law today.

its not religion that is the problem, its how people interpret it and how they use it to control others decision making that is the problem, which gives it a bad name.

Hallelujah, praise jesus for his everlasting wisdom in shooting down the churches and all their brain washing money making ways!

"Go forth and use your brain" should have been a commandment >:/.

the 10 commandments are ideals to live life by, for yourself and your community.

that's not religion. that's morality. i agree the 10 commandments are a great way to live from a moral point of view. religion just puts this grotesque and unbelievably inflexible dogmatic spin on living.

If all we had to get by on was the 10 commandments that would be ok but religion turns it into a big deal. Why can't just love thy neighbour and leave it at that?

last edited by infi at 16:11:11 21/Dec/05

10 commandments? what a looooad of crap.

How about having ONE rule to live by? Do to others only what you want done to yourself.

that's not religion. that's morality.

That's funny I swear the 10 commandments were a religious ruling passed down from biblical times.

Why can't just love thy neighbour and leave it at that?

I would have loved to have loved my neighbour but she believes in god and her church teaches no sex before marriage so that sucks!

Why can't just love thy neighbour and leave it at that?


I would have loved to have loved my neighbour but she believes in god and her church teaches no sex before marriage so that sucks!

Hmmm...I wonder how one is to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" in this situation...

Universal morality...hmmm...

Respect for other people and their beliefs (with the hope that they will offer you the same respect for you and your beliefs/lack thereof), maybe...

That's funny I swear the 10 commandments were a religious ruling passed down from biblical times.

true, but they address the way people should live, and don't actually make any religious statement, thus can be of universal application.

1. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

3. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long.

6. Thou shalt not kill.

7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8. Thou shalt not steal.

9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.

actually ... they seem pretty religious to me too ... have no other gods? it's only the ones after 5 that aren't too religious, just ways of living in accordance to prosperity as a society

Respect for other people and their beliefs (with the hope that they will offer you the same respect for you and your beliefs/lack thereof), maybe...

Untill someone belives they should have total power over everything and raise an army, destorying anyone who opposes them. That'd be hard to respect. :p

Do to others only what you want done to yourself.

So it is ok if Timmy kills and steals from people beliving that he deserves it if someone gets the better of him?

last edited by Tollaz0r! at 17:39:25 21/Dec/05

nor his ass

lol

Any second e4uiaiaia or whoever he is will come in and and say that the earth is 6000 years old, and that camelot mistook dinosaurs for dragons. Then he will try and validate those claims by posting links to longer versions of his bulls***.

respect other people's stupid opinions pls fpot.

respect other people's STUPID opinions pls fpot.

Haha - "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"???

Do to others only what you want done to yourself.

It doesn't work, no matter how many people you rape, you'll never be raped (prison doesn't count).

A victory for common sense and logic.

pls do un2 others wat u would have em do un2 u ok bi

Religious people give me the s***s when they assert or imply that they somehow have a monopoly on morality

It is relatively simple using pure logic such as game theory to demonstrate that allowing murder, theft, crimes of dishonesty, et caetera, is bad for society and by extension bad for individuals, even those individuals committing the crimes

Thus we would have evolved laws dealing with these crimes even without the concept of a hebraic creator-god handing down those laws, and all other laws should be written with "if it harms no one, do what you will" in mind (it must also not harm society)

As for no sex before marriage, there was at least one pastor at my school who was of the opinion that it is okay - it is simply a tradition from times where girls were married in their early teens, and hence it would be dangerous and ill advised for them to root before then.

Ahhh that last paragraph is good insom ... that law makes so much more sense now.
Just like all the other laws I knew there had to be a reason for it but for the life of me I never understood why.
Thanks for the heads up :)

p.s I'm not religios nor have I done extensive study into it.

Just remembered a line from the Island (movie):

Lincoln Six Echo: What's a God?
McCord: You know when you want something and you wish for it? God's the guy that ignores you.

heh I thought that was quite amusing :)

THE PLANE WILL NOT TAKE OFF

the 10 commandments are ideals to live life by, for yourself and your community.

you haven't seen my neighbours wife

hi cs_master asl

you definitely haven't seen my neighbour's ass

No sex before marriage? I figured that was more of a protection rule for the females so they didn't end up with a child and no father around to take care of it / her ... contraceptives back in those times weren't exactly easily accessible

Any second e4uiaiaia or whoever he is will come in and and say that the earth is 6000 years old, and that camelot mistook dinosaurs for dragons. Then he will try and validate those claims by posting links to longer versions of his bulls***.

I too am eagerly awaiting the arrival of eu4ia & co. After his last "6 year war over evolution drawing to an end" drama-bomb thread from a few weeks ago, i'm interested to hear his take on this. Was it a left-wing activist judge ? a jewish conspiracy ? an insidious evilutionist plot to keep christians down ?

It's pretty easy to see that people rooting for ID in this case are fundie christians with weak faith and they require some form of validation. Deep down, they know evolution makes sense, and that scares them.

last edited by korbs at 20:41:37 21/Dec/05

Deep down, they know evolution makes sense, and that scares them.

you give them too much credit. deep down they suck at life, but they don't know it.

also, wasn't there a study conducted which found humans were hardwired to believe in a god? gives credit to the idea that our brain structures come from our ancestors, if they believe something thoroughly enough, the brain forms the necessary paths, and they are then handed down through the generations. ever wondered where talent comes from? like father like son.

also, wasn't there a study conducted which found humans were hardwired to believe in a god?

I've never heard of such a study,and it reeks of bulls*** to me. If you could post some links i would be most interested, though.

last edited by korbs at 21:14:12 21/Dec/05

what about atheists?

the island was a great movie
scarlett rules

atheists don't believe in god so it doesn't matter...

there have been a few doco's about studies in neurology that concluded that there is a physical part of the brain that handles unsolvable problems. in some people this may explain religious fervour while in other people it acts as a sort of a 'fudge factor' where the brain resolves to the nearest currently believable memory that fits the unsolvable problem at hand. i am assuming this is what dice meant.

last edited by demon at 21:29:45 21/Dec/05

Cool, thanks for that demon, now i have to find a way to watch it...

Sorry for calling bulls*** on you dice, i guess i'm a hardwired skeptic :P

http://atheistempire.com/reference/brain/main.html

A group of neuroscientists at the University of California at San Diego has identified a region of the human brain that appears to be linked to thoughts of spiritual matters and prayer. Their findings tentatively suggest that we as a species are genetically programmed to believe in God.

and so on

makes sense, i don't care enough about this to read all that, but i just heard it along the line somewhere and thought it was worth a mention

when they start following the theory that neural structure is also dependant on genes, then i'll start being interested again, coz i'm pretty sure that i'm right about that one, but, it's theory, so don't get too excited about opposing it yet, coz i'm so not going to waste my time debating it. wait for an actual study.

nps :D i don't think the bbc show i linked was the doco i saw... which i think was an abc production, but i can't find an url for it :/ i watched it on television a few years ago & it was a bit different from that bbc article but with similar concepts. they did experiments like hooking up buddhist monks, catholic priests & poindexter scientists to the machines that scan the electrical activity in the brain (eec?). all the spiritual types heavily used a particular part of the brain when they meditated whereas the scientists didn't use that same area at all while meditating but did rarely during other various activities.

well i think its good that it isnt forced upon people at school, but also i think religion is something very personal to alot of people, and you cant go around telling people that their chosen religion is a load of s***. its akin to someone telling you your mum is a filthy prostitute who was the bukkake queen of 1972 and took 300 cocks in 4 hours live on tv, and your dad is your brother.

so in essence, believe what you want to, just dont go around telling others of your own opinions, because thats what they are, the world being flat was a fact once. that may also be the future view on evolution in 2000 years time, you never know. just let people figure it out for themselves.

ps i'm atheist.

believe what you want to, just dont go around telling others of your own opinions

STOP TELLING ME YOUR OPINION

just let people figure it out for themselves

omg ... why didn't YOU let ME figure this out??? you might as well have just told me that Vader is Luke's brother in law, way to spoil the ending

damn wise men.

you are an idiot.

micro evolution exists.

macro evolution is only a theory and has not had any scientific proof :p

besides, everyone knows that life on earth began with panspermation.

What does panspermation mean? It doesn't come up in google or dictionary. I assume it is some clever literary reference you know from an author you read before they were cool.

last edited by fpot at 09:33:13 22/Dec/05

panspermia i think the real word is

being seeded from externally

basically life is on an asteroid/meteor, and hits earth and seeds earth with life.

its a theory that mars had life before earth did, and traces of the early organisms may have seeded earth. its a bit early and im not making much sense but hey

also fpot, whats your msn these days?

I say we're all Waiting for Godot.

the 10 commandments are ideals to live life by, for yourself and your community.

The famed ‘Ten Commandments’ – even today erroneously accepted in the popular mind as absolute and universal rules to live by – are nothing other than a codification of Jewish male property rights.

In their original full versions, two of the commandments endorse slavery; the taboo on adultery was an attempt to stop polygamous Jewish males taking each others wives (‘foreign’ concubines and wives had no rights); the ‘honour’ to be accorded parents merely endorsed a draconian patriarchal social structure; even the taboo on murder was open to interpretation, since the slaying of enemies and wrong-doers would not be ‘murder’ but the Lord’s will!
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/brutal.htm

Here is some more insight into the commandments and their original intention etc...:

http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/tencommentary.html
http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/tencommandments.html

how can i subscribe to your publication/newsletter/cult?

I don't use msn :P

Yes I have read before on the reputable source of the Internet that the whole Christian faith was deisgned by Jewish rabbis/pharisees whatever you want to call them to keep the new converts in check an inferior cultural groiup to the Jews.

Particularly if you compare many of the living rules of Jews to those of Christians, Christians are required to be much more virtuous and Jews were permitted to live a lot more liberally.

I find this comparison between Jews and Christians very interesting because they both existed in the same oppressive times. You would expect them to band together but they were quite distinctive in their beliefs.

Even different groups of christians would fight each other over who had the right version of jesus...

first, i'll begin by saying how very dissapointed i am, that i have not even gotten one single mention as a religious nut! I'm insulted!

second off, the ten commandments could all be used as a good basic guide to living. it all depends on who you consider your god? athiest = themselves ofcourse

1. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

3. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.

4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

1, don't put someone else before yourself.(ie look out for "numbr one")
2, don't say negative things about yourself.
3, don't define yourself by physical things, as in the things you own, the money you earn. etc,
4, make sure you take a day off atleast once a week to relax and to treat yourself

thirdly

Here is some more insight into the commandments and their original intention etc

i think this holds as much truth as any fanatically-relgious / anti-religous dribble on the net today.

and lastly, even if we did come from mars, that doesn't really help explain where we came from.. that just changes the location.

besides, everyone knows that life on earth began with panspermation.

o rly? No seriously, really? I would've thought thats just a theory?

first, i'll begin by saying how very dissapointed i am, that i have not even gotten one single mention as a religious nut! I'm insulted!

Well, you're more of a moderate christian. You're certainly not in the same league as fundieu4ia.

second off, the ten commandments could all be used as a good basic guide to living. it all depends on who you consider your god? athiest = themselves ofcourse

athiesm is an absence of belief (in the same way that asymmetry is the absence of symmetry) and you would not find many athiests (outside mental institutions) who consider themselves 'god' (even in the metaphorical sense).

1, don't put someone else before yourself.(ie look out for "numbr one")

I think you're trying to paint athiests as selfish, which just isn't true. Surely you don't think that christians have a monopoly on kindness and altruism.

the absence of belief is called "weak" atheism. "Strong" atheism is the belief that no god exists.

"Strong" athiesm is called common sense.

second off, the ten commandments could all be used as a good basic guide to living.

How f***ing brainwashed you are! What a load of crap! Why the hell do we need rules, that, for a start, refer to a god that doesn't even exist! Secondly, why do we need ten rules - why not one!? - "Do unto others as you would want done to you"?

While I don't believe in Karma, I certainly believe it's a good idea, and anyone who treats others like s*** deserves whatever karma comes of them :)

so what does a 'weak' atheist believe!? NUTHN!? :P i rekn you just made that s*** up.

ok, i admit i had to f*** around with the first one.. other than that though. im not saying thats selfish.

raven, how f***ing shallow are you? what a load of crap! what do you think would happen if people didn't know the basics of living together? and one rule? that rule won't work, not ever, because people are different. peoples morals are different.

also. i'm far from brainwashed raven. can't say much for you though.

raven, how f***ing shallow are you? what a load of crap! what do you think would happen if people didn't know the basics of living together? and one rule? that rule won't work, not ever, because people are different. peoples morals are different.

That is the only moral you need. Those who can't fathom it are usually selfish/self-centered pricks. Or religious f***tards, who make up religions and beliefs to control society and create a heirachy giving them control of others.

I can actually think for myself rather than needing to do what a book (or 'god', though psychologists have a lot to say for people who have voices talk to them) tells me. Not only that, I can decide for myself what is 'moral' based on how a person will be affected by my actions. You on the other hand justify your actions based on ten divine commands. That's thoroughly f***ed up.

Simple fact is, there's a large number of people in the world who should just be euthanised, and the world would be better off without.

That is the only moral you need. Those who can't fathom it are usually selfish/self-centered pricks.

and the world is full of these people, which is why you need more than just that one moral.

Not only that, I can decide for myself what is 'moral' based on how a person will be affected by my actions.

so you concede that morals are completely arbitrary and vary from person to person. So what about the people who think genocide is morally justified ?...like you (see below)

Simple fact is, there's a large number of people in the world who should just be euthanised, and the world would be better off without.

yeah dude, do unto others....

maybe it's not such a bad thing they added that 'thou shalt not kill' so twats like you wouldn't start putting their opinions into practice.

last edited by korbs at 12:19:06 23/Dec/05

I didn't say I'd do it. I said I think it's a good idea and would make the world better. But I don't condone it. There's a big difference.

...

raven, i have nothing to add. your making a bigger moron out of yourself than anyone else could.

well done

you are an idiot.

if you didn't understand what i was implying, then i'm afraid i'm not the idiot here

damn kids

your making a bigger moron out of yourself

Well said, get an education. Then move out of your religiously blinded fantasy world. Then actually read what I post, and spend seven seconds to attempt to get your brain around it. Please do not attempt to contribute more to this conversation until you have completed all these steps.

If you think I'm making a moron out of myself because I can actually form coherent arguments, and can base my arguments on fact not fiction, and, not only that, but can think for myself and not make s*** up, then I'm clearly not the moron. Hands up those who actually believe forming an argument based on a fictional book makes you right - or appear even remotely smart? Anyone?

last edited by Raven at 12:59:14 23/Dec/05

I'd say there's a little more to moral decency than one rule ... that 'do unto others' thing only works if everyone is on the same wavelength. Some people will think it right to steal if they are in need and the other person has an abundance, and humans being desire-driven as they are, would of course come up with a million arguments as to why they're justified and even go as far as saying "I'd expect a poorer family to steal from me if I had abundance as well".

That's if they actually thought ... fair few deadbeats out there driven by little more than impulse.

edit: sp

last edited by dice at 13:37:56 23/Dec/05

as if raven your arguement is terrible and white wolf knows alot about religion man look at the past threads. hes right your making a fool of yourself raven.

Whitewolf > Raven.

haha, even the athiests that are normally against me say your owned raven, your argument against me is more based off a "fictional book" than you realise, your simply saying im wrong, because my idea is from the "fictional book" without actually look at what i said.

What?

Just me or did Whitewolf own himself?

last edited by shad at 15:12:37 23/Dec/05

i dont know what just happened... hold me shad :(

I'm just sitting here, looking at the screen, trying to figure out what just happened.......
What do I have to pray to, to get an answer..?

you're = YOU ARE (you're hopeless, you're a tool, you're wrong)

your = related to possession (your mom, your bf, your argument is wrong)


edit: ps, whtiewolf, being right about raven in this argument is a small victory, why don't you go get half a clue about something worthwhile instead of talking it up

last edited by dice at 16:13:45 23/Dec/05

raven, which day of the week do your hitler youth meetings happen on? i am mildly curious in attending the book burnings. thxbi

to be fair not all humourless atheists are nazis

To be fair, Hitler had some f***ing brilliant ideas. He just went a little overboard.

NB: Anyone who wants to call me ... whatever... go do some reading of the history post WW1 and pre WW2.

last edited by Raven at 18:21:48 23/Dec/05

What dice said. Do not even ATTEMPT to get into an argument - and certainly don't call someone a moron, if you can't even get something right that's taught in grade two.

My logic isn't wrong - there's nothing wrong with it, if people followed it. I don't deny that people will have different morals, and refuse to follow it - but how is that different from ANY set of morals or ethics, including your divine command theory (10 commandments + bible).
Every ethical theory that I've come across (despite the fact that Kantianism and Altruism (much like Utilitarianism) are reasonable) has its flaws. Situations typically applied almost always have exceptions.
Same thing with DCT. "Do not steal", fine, that's all good, but if you then as a result of not stealing fail to prevent someone from dying, that may as well be you breaking "Do not kill" as far as I'm concerned. Even Kantianism first categorical imperative, which works on the basis of "If an action were to be taken universally, would it be a good thing" while sounds good in theory, needs exceptions.

What I find funny though is how desperate the Christians and Catholics are to make sure they're considered right on Intelligent Design. Because lets face it, without a creator there's no basis for the story in the bible, and with the bible being completely rejected you're even more of a f***ing joke.

yeah hitler did have some good ideas, but who doesn't? i'd say it's impossible to be wrong about everything

also, it's very easy to go crazy at christians and other religions, but when it comes down to it, most people are decent, and as long as they're not extremists, they're usually fun to hang around too. in other words, why not try cutting each other some slack and just accepting that you have made different choices in life and follow different paths. if we all followed the same path, there'd be very little growth ... you're gamers, you should know most of the cool stuff in games is found out by accident because people play so differently, life isn't all that much different. take it easy

/end preachy suggestion