http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2010/jul/26/afghanistan-war-logs-wikileaks

In one of the biggest leaks in US military history 90,000 files reveal blow-by-blow account of what the Guardian describes as the failing war in Afghanistan, including the death of hundreds of civilians and a steep rise in Taliban attacks despite the efforts of a covert unit set up to kill or capture Taliban leaders without trial.

This is big news and hopefully will spark the withdrawal from this conflict. Unfortunately nothing new or unexpected really seems to be coming out of these leaks.

It's actually only 75k of pages they've withheld 15k for future release.

Having read some of the messages I very much doubt the "uninitiated" here will be able to get much out of them other than casualty reports. You can download a 75mb file of all the messages with google map locations for each message from the site. Use http://bit.ly/9RlJQA link as their site is grossly overloaded.

Already talking about warcrimes and the like,Pakistani intelligence helping the taliban and so on, things that i already knew but know docs with names and organizations,about time i say.

these wikileaks guys are gonna get boned soon.

They leaked information about undercover US spies working with the taliban to plot attacks against their own people.

a) the fact the US would allow this in the first place kind of makes me feel ill, and confirms to me the many reasons why i hate the USA.
b) sucks to be those people who were once suspected of being undercover spies in the taliban, bet they get shot in the faces.

I'm really surprised this site is still around. I would of thought they US government would of gone ape s*** by now and try to shut them down, charging the people who work there with treason or something to make an example of them. Good on them I say for leaking this stuff.

these wikileaks guys are gonna get boned soon.

Aye, page 89,999 of the documents reports:

Covert ops units ready and deployed outside Julian Assange's house.
Projected casualty figures for the sortie ahead: 1

Yeah, leaking documents which breaches national security is pretty awesome RIGHT.


d*******.

Wikileaks don't leak anything, other people leak to Wikileaks.

Yeah, leaking documents which breaches national security is pretty awesome RIGHT.


d*******.

Hahaha you Americans...

*puts on tin foil hat*

leaked by the USA Gov and friends to help legitimise a 2014 withdrawal from Afghanistan?

conspiracy theorists?

All governments work like that casa

Thats what they do they rule through legislature (gobbledegook)

They leaked information about undercover US spies working with the taliban to plot attacks against their own people.

Or so the media reports. Kind of like 'climategate' with all the "OMG THIS IS THE PROOF ITS ALL FAKE" shouts that never eventuated with anything. I'll wait till there's been some investigations and whatnot, it's a lot of stuff to read.

also like the raping and pillaging that happened according to fox news after hurricane katrina - which according to locals didnt happen.

This is all covered in that South Park episode about 9/11.

fox news

news programs like to draw conclusions about evidence for you.

Wikileaks has supplied all the evidence and left it up to you to draw conclusions.

i can tell you which type of journalism would more accurately represent what is actually happening.

Wikileaks could have brought the war to a halt by releasing all the stuff they had. By releasing some of it they have in fact Censored the material.
We dont know what was censored and as such cant be sure of the reasons, excuses.

The Military censored the War
The Governments censored the War
Wikileaks has censored the War

The truth needs to come out about Afghanistan.
It is a Crime against Humanity.

What is your point exactly? that the Taliban are good?

Wikileaks could have brought the war to a halt by releasing all the stuff they had. By releasing some of it they have in fact Censored the material.
We dont know what was censored and as such cant be sure of the reasons, excuses.

Wikileaks' (or at least, Assange's) process when leaking information is to do it in a structured, planned way so that each step of the way has maximum impact. AFAIK they have no plans to 'censor' material by leaving stuff out - the plan is, always, to release ALL of it, just in a structured way so that the media isn't overwhelmed and can focus on key things.

It makes perfect sense to me to do it that way

What is your point exactly? that the Taliban are good?

America funded and Pakistan created the Taliban.
Are you saying they did a bad, bad thing ?

Like my mother always said to me as a child, 'I brought you into this world, and I can take you out too."

Julian will be interviewed tomorrow night on ABC Lateline (Thursday).

Like my mother always said to me as a child, 'I brought you into this world, and I can take you out too."

i use a similar cold line when my boy gives me s*** about being old and stuff.


i brought you life... i can take it away.

that is child abuse

i brought you life... i can take it away.

but really, you can't. unless murder, manslaughter or gross negligence is your kind of deal.

well it wouldn't be the first time. afghanistan is just a pawn to the US. its dirt, rubble and demolished buildings.

but really, you can't. unless murder, manslaughter or gross negligence is your kind of deal.

I am kinda into gross negligence.

Look where it got you fpot.

so anything juicy come out of it?

Why did he mention the 9/11 Truth Movement annoys him ?
I smell something.

Julian Assange is about to be interviewed on LateLine.
On now !

wow that was boring -_-

last edited by FaceMan at 23:02:59 29/Jul/10

How is this Julian Assanges fault at all, he's just doing what the government should have been doing
imo they're far too secretive on just about every military issue, why not keep the general populous more informed, even it means we're more scared etc

it's better than having s*** leaked, if we knew what was going on we'd probably be more in touch with the real world at the very least
hell it might even make us less likely to be consumer drones/whores if we werent being treated like mushrooms and had an understanding of the bigger issues that are really going on in this world

Julian will be interviewed tomorrow night on ABC Lateline (Thursday).

is it up on the Intertubes anywhere?

http://www.abc.net.au/iview/?series=2520789#/series/2520789

ta - starts around 14:40 for those interesting (this is my first time using iView! I'm excited)

what a champ, his balls must be huge

he knows that politically speaking if anyone f***s with him, it won't go down well

edit: interesting tidbit, watching that video from 14 minutes in used just over 100mb of tethering data :s


last edited by tequila at 11:13:51 30/Jul/10

Theres no way to know if its a disgruntled Military person that leaked him the stuff or its The CIA using him, without him knowing, to plant stories to pressure Pakistan/Afghanistan. The reports of miltary gunfights, civillian deaths, IEDs etc should be seen differently to Intelligence Reports that aim directly to discredit Pakistans ISI. Yet there are no reports of American Intelligence interacting with Taleban/insurgents, maybe they are in the unreleased stuff.
Not knowing who leaked the stuff makes the source questionable but guarantees security of the leaker. Thats a lot of material to collate. Cant be many with that capability.

He sent the stuff to the New York Times/ The Gaurdian and der Spiegel before releasing it. The New York Times met with US Government officials before the story was released. The Internet is the greatest printing press ever invented so what was the point of giving it to the 3 Media groups ?
Is WikiLeaks independent of the Media empires or is it attempting to become part of them ?
Did the person who released the stuff request it be done this way ?

Quite a few of the Alternative media sites have busted a blood vessel over his 9/11 comments.

over who's 911 comments?

Yeah, leaking documents which breaches national security is pretty awesome RIGHT.

No but leaking documents that proves the us has committed war crimes and should be tried is AWESOME!

Leaking documents that proves the war is a fabrication created by US involvement at all levels including the Taliban... f***ing AWESOME!

Hopefully the full truth will come out and all those god fearing, flag waving Americians can see just how corrupt and f***ed you really are.

These leaks could put our troops in danger according to top brass here in Oz and thats s***.

Those guys doing it tough over there already have enough on their plates.

edit: after reading some of the leaked material I can understand the concern.. he is still sitting on more, possibly more dangerous material. Surely he wouldn't release it if it was to directly affect the safety of troops on the ground ffs.

last edited by NoLogic at 16:51:28 30/Jul/10

Dateline SBS 8:30pm Sunday night has a month in the life of Assanges.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/on-the-run-with-wikileaks-founder-julian-assange/story-e6frfro0-1225899169383

the thing is if you want to make a point go after the guys who make the policies, not the operational guys on the ground, i cant see how this helps anyone

These leaks could put our troops in danger according to top brass here in Oz and thats s***.

military people saying that releasing classified military documents is bad?
quelle surprise

if the military is worried about it they should abort their illegal missions/war and pull the troops out

not killing innocent people anymore would probably go a long way towards stopping people like Assange from doing this kinda thing too

American government (Corporation of Washington) has been doing it for years:

- Gulf of Tonkin
- Bay of Pigs

So what else is new? Only difference now is we've got the documentation to prove that Al Qaeda was funded by the ISI which is funded by the CIA. But after all that is just another "conspiracy theory" isn't.

I find it funny when all you idiots call us crazy and now the globalists are sticking the microchip up your arse and your being branded for the animals you are.

These leaks could put our troops in danger according to top brass here in Oz and thats s***.

military people saying that releasing classified military documents is bad?
quelle surprise

if the military is worried about it they should abort their illegal missions/war and pull the troops out

not killing innocent people anymore would probably go a long way towards stopping people like Assange from doing this kinda thing too

Come on Teq bullets and bombs cost MONEY and thats no big deal with money is LEGAL TENDAH, BRO.

Because they just use YOUR resources from YOUR LAND. Oh but thats right its owned by Corporations. Get with the times BRO.

This is just another conspiracy theory. Oh look BUY MORE BOMBS BUY MORE BULLETS so you can kill people cause war is profitable.

But go back to bed Australia.

Your Government is in control.

Here is Channel 7 telling you about the election where your choice is making a difference.
Go back to sleep, Australia here is Channel 9 and Rupert Murdoch and celebrity MasterChef and nothing is happening.

MasterChef is important cause it tells people like teq and all the other trolls here how to cook while they're world is bumming them up the arse.

http://snarkerati.com/movie-news/files/2008/04/x-files-believe1.jpg

believe is like faceman on meth

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/9/8/633564940352646100-Sheeple.jpg

MasterChef is important

I've heard people rave about this show for so long and I don't get it. I watched an episode of it and it was pathetic. I just thought it was so f***ing boring and s***. People given 1 1/2 hours to cook food and they bitch they don't have enough time to do what they wanted. It has nothing on hell's kitchen.

so tell us, what is it that you are doing differently to the rest of us
are you rising up and fighting it? or just talking the talk


FIGHT THE POWER MANZ

DM - you are correct.

EVERYTHING IS OK.

Only difference now is we've got the documentation to prove that Al Qaeda was funded by the ISI which is funded by the CIA. But after all that is just another "conspiracy theory" isn't.

That sounds more like bureaucratic incompetence and stupidity rather than a conspiracy... but thats what they want us to think right?

its not a f***en conspiracy theory, its fact. everyone knows it. everyone. yet no one cares. no one could give a f***.. the media, the government, the idiots who vote for politicians that support this false war.

the american 'ally' (its pakistan if you couldn't figure it out) in the area is subverting american interests in the area. the subversion leads to deaths of australian people for no f***ing reason at all, let alone each and every other country who is misguidedly involved.

so the goal is for america to pull out in 2 or 3 years. what happens then... everyone knows the answer. and all the people who died in a f***ing stupid waste of time fake war is for nothing except some people who got very very rich off it

but thats crazy talk, we're saving the world for turrrurrists taking out jerbs instituting sharia law repressing women in countries who most definitely want american style democracy and mcdonalds and starbucks on every corner

why australia is in the middle east at all is a joke.

damn straight, but it seems like there's not a god damned thing we the general public can do about it

damn straight, but it seems like there's not a god damned thing we the general public can do about it

if only there was an election coming up!

Although given that I don't think I've heard ANY candidate even MENTION our involvement in the middle east (which costs us f*** knows how much money and lives) because they're too busy talking about the piddly-ass issue that is boat people, it's not really surprising noone knows what the f*** is going on

As far as I know with regard to the war in Afghanistan:
Labor - for
Coalition - for
Greens - against

I'd guess some of the even smaller parties would also be against it, but I haven't had a close look yet.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/lv?key=0AgwGFHFd0TUIdExCbkNZWllUaVRsRG9yZXVVTXhUN0E&hl=en&authkey=CJu2lp8P tells me Greens are the only 'major' party that support bringing troops back

the greens are also backing Labor, so a vote for the Greens is a vote for some bad policy juju

http://https//spreadsheets.google.com/lv?key=0AgwGFHFd0TUIdExCbkNZWllUaVRsRG9yZXVVTXhUN0E&hl=en&authkey=CJu2lp8P

link fixed and what-the-f***

the Greens oppose Nuclear medicine?


last edited by tequila at 18:27:21 01/Aug/10

The Dateline story is on now and its pretty interesting.
lot of background on the release of documents

military people saying that releasing classified military documents is bad?
quelle surprise

if the military is worried about it they should abort their illegal missions/war and pull the troops out

not killing innocent people anymore would probably go a long way towards stopping people like Assange from doing this kinda thing too

missing the point .. this leak could endanger Aussie troops on the ground. It doesn't matter whether you/Assange think the war is illegal or not.

I was deployed to northern Iraq in '91 as a member of a medical team under UN and US control to provide medical assistance to withdrawing/fleeing Kurdish rebels. We came under fire on several occasions until there was a no fly zone put in place, until then, there was only security provided by our US command and ourselves.

When in the military you don't have a say where you go, you just go. Luckily there was no Wikileak then and the internet was almost non existent. These Aussies deployed to Afghanistan have the right to be angered if some idiot leaks documents that could possibly put their lives in danger.

arent their lives already in danger by being over there?

arent their lives already in danger by being over there?

They are of course .. but releasing information about operational procedures isn't going to help reduce the risk to them, it can only further endanger them.

Releasing information about how retarded the situation is there might reduce the danger to them by getting them brought home earlier?

http://spreadsheets.google.com/lv?key=0AgwGFHFd0TUIdExCbkNZWllUaVRsRG9yZXVVTXhUN0E&hl=en&authkey=CJu2lp8P


HOLY s***! - Who made / is updating this spreadsheet? - Thats cool!

Releasing information about how retarded the situation is there might reduce the danger to them by getting them brought home earlier?

can't see it happening for 3-4 years at least, we have recently taken on some more territories to work with. If anything our numbers of people on the ground will increase.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/lv?key=0AgwGFHFd0TUIdExCbkNZWllUaVRsRG9yZXVVTXhUN0E&hl=en&authkey=CJu2lp8P


HOLY s***! - Who made / is updating this spreadsheet? - Thats cool!

I dunno, I've been trying to find out so I can do a thread about it

if the military is worried about it they should abort their illegal missions/war and pull the troops out

missing the point .. this leak could endanger Aussie troops on the ground. It doesn't matter whether you/Assange think the war is illegal or not.

uh, I think you're missing the point.
if they feel the troops are in (more) danger because of the leaks, just take them out of harms way?
it's simple

*ring ring*
Soldier: "Hello Commander."
Commander: "go home"
Soldier: "hazah!"

problem solvered

Releasing information about how retarded the situation is there might reduce the danger to them by getting them brought home earlier?

see, trog gets it

if they feel the troops are in (more) danger because of the leaks, just take them out of harms way?
it's simple

not that simple, our expertise in mentoring and security means we are exactly where we should be.

We are one of the only members of the ISAF that can perform at the level that is required. Engineering, logistics and security being the main role. Supported by SAS, Commandos and Unmanned aerial vehicle teams gathering intelligence and providing security for our troops in the Sth. Australia control all ISAF air traffic in sothern afghanistan.

I think you're completely missing the point again

If they are in danger, get them out
if they "have to be there" then they have to live with the danger regardless of whether it comes from the Assange type people or from Mr & Mrs Jihad living on Bakalakadaka street

just fyi, in case it isn't completely obvious, I don't think they have to be there
sure the country is in trouble but what the f*** business is it of anyone else but their own populous
why should anyone feel like they need to get involved in someone elses problems?

oh wait I forgot, oil and minerals

Werrrrl, I think the only question that's relevant is: Are Australians being made safer because of our continued presence in Afghanistan? Because the cost of the operation is obviously significant. Unless we, the Australian citizens (ie, taxpayers) are getting some benefit out of it, then we should be the f*** out of there on the next bus.

I don't know the answer to that one for sure; I haven't really done enough research. My gut says its costing more than we're getting, plus I don't like being thrown into the spotlight on the World Police stage along with the US of A. But I /do/ feel that no we've gone there and f***ed the place up alongside the US, we have some obligation to stay there and see if we can fix up the place a bit.

That said, I think we should have never gone into Iraq and we should get the f*** out of there straight away and let the Americans clean up that mess.

oh wait I forgot, oil and minerals

Thats redundant. Do a bit of research about our role over there. I know that many Australians are unhappy with us being there, but imo we need to be. I know from a soldiers pov most of them would want to be there, it's what they train for.

The Taliban were out of control and their influence spreading to neighbouring contries needed to be stopped. The only way to do that is hard edged military operations on the ground combined with an education program to turn the younger afghanies away from leaning toward the Taliban. If they were able to police the country then we wouldn't need to be there, they can't, so we have to be.

It's a bloody complex situation.

Are Australians being made safer because of our continued presence in Afghanistan?

Tough question, I would say yes. The fear factor is there however, being seen as the world police can be a double edged sword. I think we will look back in 15-20 years from now and think it was a useful exercise.

The people in this area have been kicking foreign armies asses for a very long time, I don't think we can win this "war" but we can help the average person on the ground get some sort of an education, eployment and a sense of security.

I know that many Australians are unhappy with us being there, but imo we need to be. I know from a soldiers pov most of them would want to be there, it's what they train for.

they want to be there because it's what they've trained for? s***ty argument is s***ty
they trained to defend their country, not attack others

who cares if the Taliban is out of control, no one asked for our help - we just decided it was in their best interests to go start a fight with a bully that was picking on another country

hows that working out for us by the way, did the bully back down or are we any closer to defeating them?

hint: no.

it's a big exercise in futility thus far, also we seem to be wasting f*** tonnes of cash that we can't afford to spend as it is

oh lordy, i agree with teq...it's not just a waste of cash, it's a waste of lives. we weren't 'needed there' at all, we just asked 'how high?' when the US said 'Jump' and eagerly followed them into the breach, assuming that the States would just steamroll Afghanistan/Iraq, the wars would be done and dusted and the US would look fondly upon little johnny and australia - if it was about 'defending australia' from terrorists, wouldn't we have invaded indonesia? as the country where the only act of terrorism really affecting australian citizens (Bali bombing) originated and occurred? all that aus's involvement in this war has gained australia is a reputation as the US's lapdog. but hell, if those minerals/oil contracts come up, some aus companies could get a look in i guess

The War in Afghanistan gives Political Leaders, in the countries taking part, the reasons to implement laws that are removing the Freedoms of their own people in their Societies.
There is no willpower to end the War while it serves a purpose.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That Political spreadsheet should be posted in all Electoral boxes.
It gives the consumer information about the product they are about to vote for. In fact it should be printed out and letterbox dropped into vulnerable swinging Electorates. Doing that would serve more purpose than Voting for the Sex Party.

they trained to defend their country, not attack others

And we also have an agreement signed with the US to contribute to the defence of the Pacific ocean area. Our Bilateral agreement with the USA means that we extended that support imediately after the sept 11 attack. 10 Australians killed in sept 11 attacks and 88 in Bali. These groups responsible are said to have been trained in part in Nth Afghanistan.

Thats reason enough for me and a good investment and use of our defence force.

so your "logic" is that we need to retaliate because they threw the first rock?

why didn't we just send 10 elite troops in to do as much damage as possible
that's gotta cost less than the billions we've already spent and achieved sweet f*** all

seriously what do we have to show for the time/money spent in these two bit countries

And if the US continued its aggressive path from the Bush years this would be another reason to back away from the ANZUS treaty. As it stands governments on both sides of the ocean have seemingly retreated from their hawkish stance, but it still doesn't mean we should follow or continue with the US in foolish conflicts.

so your "logic" is that we need to retaliate because they threw the first rock?

well, I would like to think that if Australians were getting systematically targeted by terrorists in attacks overseas, our government would step up and smash the people responsible for that.

That's why I don't really object to our initial presence in Afghanistan; I think smashing the terrorist training camps is a good thing.

I haven't really followed this wikileaks things too closely due to lack of time, but from what I have heard, a lot of the problem is that they're still getting a lot of support from Pakistan (worse, the money to do that is coming from the USA?), so it sounds like there might still be a bit more to do in the region to figure it all out.

I say we take off, and nuke the entire site from orbit.

missing the point .. this leak could endanger Aussie troops on the ground. It doesn't matter whether you/Assange think the war is illegal or not.

Oh and that's EXACTLY the point. As citizens we should have the information available to us to make a decision as to if this war is justified and legal or not. We are sending OUR people with OUR money and if the war is being conducted illegally it is OUR reputation and WE as Australians could become more of a prominent target for OUR involvement. So in the end it comes down to the safety of all Australians, not just the troops. As a result I want to know enough about how things are being conducted to know if I should be supporting our involvement (via the proxy of a political party that supports it) when I use my democratic right to vote in a couple of weeks. Giving away specific names and details of future operations etc would be going too far, and likely pointless as plans would immediately change. But the people of our country deserve to know if the commanders running the war, and troops on the ground (that represent us) have taken the approach that they have a total mandate for whatever works, or they are treating the situation with the political and diplomatic sensitivity required not to further inflame the situation in the entire region.

why didn't we just send 10 elite troops in to do as much damage as possible

we did this except it was 75 - first on ground in Afghanistan

systematic targeting?

Wasn't Bali the only one where we know that they were specifically attacking Australians
we're probably not doing ourselves any favors in terms of asking for attacks by going after terrorist

they hate America already, lets just take a step back and let the US bare the brunt of it

Well these leaks do show one thing, virtually zero progress and that our Leaders have been telling lies about progress.

The ANZUS Treaty is about contributing to defence of each of the countries involved, not to assist in Illegal attacks and occupation of Soverign countries.

The ANZUS Treaty is about contributing to defence of each of the countries involved

Not entirely true, it includes the Pacific region. Our bilateral arrangements with regards to USA and operations in Iraq, Afghanistan and other areas are as a result of yearly discussions held directly with the Americans where we agree to support the USA and other countries in their fight against global terror.

systematic targeting?

Wasn't Bali the only one where we know that they were specifically attacking Australians

Australian embassies have also been targeted in areas of SE Asia

umm what does the pacific ocean have to do with anything? afghanistan is landlocked and iraq is in the middle east?

umm what does the pacific ocean have to do with anything? afghanistan is landlocked and iraq is in the middle east?

ANZUS Treaty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANZUS

oh, so because a terrorist network attacked america, we invoked the ANZUS treaty to 'defend' the pacific ocean region and invade two countries across the world? one barely legitimately and the other completely not? i'm all for supporting our troops now that they are there, but honestly, the whole situation is a joke and aussies have died needlessly, not to mention the scores of americans/afghanis/iraqis

Iraq, Afghanistan and other areas are as a result of yearly discussions held directly with the Americans where we agree to support the USA and other countries in their fight against global terror

Is different to our obligations under the ANZUS treaty.

As I said earlier in the thread, these decisions are made outside of the ANZUS treaty but are not totally unrelated. A part of the treaty states that if we or the USA are directly attacked then the security of all signed nations are considered compromised.

Further to that our military leaders and relevant levels of government meet yearly to discuss security issues. It is there that we agreed to partake in operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I don't think I can make it clearer than that dude, just go read up on it a bit :)

It's not that I don't understand mate, I don't agree with it. The US weren't directly attacked by a nation state, they were attacked by a group of extremists.
Their national security wasn't compromised in the sense they were being invaded, they suffered a significant and tragic loss of life and commerce, but it did not threaten 99.9% of the country, the Reds weren't coming, and as such I don't think that members of the ANZUS treaty should have been pulled into another possible Vietnam.

The invasion of Iraq was ludicrous and I think it was pretty telling that France/Germany weren't involved - it's alright though, Moldova sent 24 troops! ;)

Their war/s has done greater damage to their economy and military and country than the attack by Al Qaeda, not counting the costs to those countries they have attacked.

and as such I don't think that members of the ANZUS treaty should have been pulled into another possible Vietnam.

We werent pulled into that conflict as we weren't in '91. If we didn't go for example in '91, who would have. We decided to go along with other nations to protect people that either couldn't protect themselves or had neighbours that didn't give a s***.

In '91 we were treating between 40-50 wounds per day, most of them caused by mortar, grenades or in worst cases landmines. Not nice to see displaced families carrying kids that have stepped on a mine or been strafed by small weapons while trying to escape.

I would think that the Aussies would want to be there, I did.


last edited by NoLogic at 15:36:13 02/Aug/10

last edited by NoLogic at 15:36:45 02/Aug/10

systematic targeting?

Wasn't Bali the only one where we know that they were specifically attacking Australians

Well, how many times do you think terrorists should be able to attack Australians before we react?

Maybe getting involved in a ground war in Afghanistan wasn't the best reaction, but I think we had to do a military response to show we're not going to sit on our hands and take it when people kill our citizens (while they're on holiday)

I would have been ok with just sending the SAS into training camps or something to shut them down as well (in fact I think that would be a good resolution for now - pull out majority of ground forces, boost intelligence, etc).

trog - weren't the people responsible for the Bali bombing Indonesians? How would invading Afghanistan help strike back at them? Sure it might disrupt their links to Al Qaeda, but it wouldn't actually get 'revenge' for the act?

NoLogic - congrats on your service, respect for what you did over there, but I don't feel these conflicts are in the same league as the gulf war was a response to the invasion and annexation of Kuwait.

I'm not trying to be contrarian here, I just think the current Iraq and Afghanistan wars are quagmires with no end in sight with pretty tenuous reasons for beginning in the first place (especially iraq). Enough with this anyway, the troops will stay for the foreseeable future as both parties want to keep up the presence. As long as they are doing everything in their power to mitigate loss of life, I'll have to be content with that!

last edited by funky at 15:45:39 02/Aug/10

trog - weren't the people responsible for the Bali bombing Indonesians? How would invading Afghanistan help strike back at them

Because, if you believe the stories, they were trained (and/or funded?) from Afghanistan

So according to these 'stories', we should go invade an entire country because a few terrorists were trained there...

I just think the current Iraq and Afghanistan wars are quagmires with no end in sight with pretty tenuous reasons for beginning in the first place (especially iraq).

I have to agree that there is no end in sight, it's been the same for any army througout history trying to occupy those lands. I would like to see the engineers get the job done and also get out, think thats a while off. In the meantime it is a very good exercise for our troops and they are gaining valuable skills that will one day most likely be in use via our neighbours from the north who could pose a larger threat down the track.

a terrorist group wasn't just training there (afghanistan), they were in direct control of the country

Here is an interesting (though long) story about how the current thinking with regard to military interventions is failing (Titled "The end of (military) history?: Recent armed conflicts involving Israel and America show that the Western way of war has failed", and written by a Professor from Boston University). I don't know that I agree with 100% of it, but it does make some good points and looks at post-WWII trends.

a terrorist group wasn't just training there (afghanistan), they were in direct control of the country

A terrorist group has been running Cuba for over 50 years!!!

They were hardly terrorists imitation.

Communism is terrorism spoon

So according to these 'stories', we should go invade an entire country because a few terrorists were trained there...

Well, if those terrorists are wandering free throughout the world killing civilians, and that country is known to be harboring and training said terrorists, and diplomatic solutions have failed, then I think military action is the only solution.

Again as I suggested above, surgical SAS strikes on particular camps might have been just as effective (and certainly would have been heaps cooler and I reckon probably even more intimidating - imagine being a terrorist in one of those camps knowing that other camps have mysteriously vanished in the night).

Arguably, terrorists might not exist if the US would keep its dick in its pants when it comes to foreign policy, but that's a different kettle of fish.

When I seize control of the country then rest assured Australia won't be following the US around militarily like a lapdog, but neither will we be sitting on our ass ignoring it when our citizens are butchered by criminals, either

Most of the terrorist 'camps' in Afghanistan are heavily fortified cave camps though aren't they, that even the SAS can't get to.

If Ironman has taught me anything, that is certainly the case.

They were hardly terrorists imitation.

Yeah because they're not muslim AMIRITE?

So according to these 'stories', we should go invade an entire country because a few terrorists were trained there...

Well, if those terrorists are wandering free throughout the world killing civilians, and that country is known to be harboring and training said terrorists, and diplomatic solutions have failed, then I think military action is the only solution.

Again as I suggested above, surgical SAS strikes on particular camps might have been just as effective (and certainly would have been heaps cooler and I reckon probably even more intimidating - imagine being a terrorist in one of those camps knowing that other camps have mysteriously vanished in the night).

Arguably, terrorists might not exist if the US would keep its dick in its pants when it comes to foreign policy, but that's a different kettle of fish.

When I seize control of the country then rest assured Australia won't be following the US around militarily like a lapdog, but neither will we be sitting on our ass ignoring it when our citizens are butchered by criminals, either

I'll take that.

MF, I saw a cool shirt the other day when I went to the city - white shirt, giant black letters:

"I'm Muslim - DON'T PANIC"

haha, place and price plz.

(i ask for the price because i'm muslim - I'M CHEAP)

Another t-shirt right there lol

I thought jews were the cheap ones.

a terrorist group wasn't just training there (afghanistan), they were in direct control of the country

A terrorist group has been running Cuba for over 50 years!!!

speaking of retarded foreign policy!

Another t-shirt right there lol

NoLogic, you can have that one for say $15? need to cover the cost of the Dont Panic shirt as much as possible.

I thought jews were the cheap ones

They are, but we're like cousins, so we're not far off em.

NoLogic, you can have that one for say $15? need to cover the cost of the Dont Panic shirt as much as possible.

Touche!!

So according to these 'stories', we should go invade an entire country because a few terrorists were trained there...

YES, and Iran's next.

So according to these 'stories', we should go invade an entire country because a few terrorists were trained there...

YES, and Iran's next.

uh, is there actually any evidence that Iran are aiding and abetting terrorists?

If so, is it the same sort of 'evidence' that there were WMDs in Iraq?

If so, is it the same sort of 'evidence' that there were WMDs in Iraq?

no credible evidence so far, but they are dabbling with Nuclear Technology. Doubt the US would allow it, not to mention the Israelis lol..

I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that if the Israelis got a snif of a Nuclear threat from Iran they would press the button.

uh, is there actually any evidence that Iran are aiding and abetting terrorists?

Their defiant rhetoric is surprisingly similar to Saddam's shortly before he was obliterated so I am guessing they have no WMD, but do you really want to risk it. Best to nuke them from orbit.

We do know one thing, they are hell bent on Israel's destruction. Is that the kind of peaceful neighbour you want getting their hands on nukes?

Its funny how north korea doesnt get invaded, I think im more worried about that crazy country/leader than any muslim country.

North Korea are broke, they can't even afford food.

We do know one thing, they are hell bent on Israel's destruction. Is that the kind of peaceful neighbour you want getting their hands on nukes?

this sounds like a thoughtcrime - maybe we should learn our lesson from Iraq and not actually, you know, commit to a trillion dollar invasion until we're SURE they're going to do something (ie, when they start lobbing Scuds at Isreal, like Saddam did)

If I lived in a region where my neighbor had just been invaded by the USA for no valid reason I'd probably be a little bit pissed off about the whole thing as well and wouldn't have many nice things to say either.

Oh, so you would be OK with an invasion AFTER Israel had been hit with a nuke? Thanks for clearing that up.

Trog sticking it to USA and its foreign policy and sticking up for the underdogs, on his own forum.. wow.. we're making progress here my brothers and there's nothing stopping us now! faith in humanity is restored!

Meanwhile infi is a jew and can't wait for his bar mitzva to take place at nF's house.

Yeah let's just go invading countries willy nilly by apprehending terrorists based on foreknowledge provided by psychics, much like the movie Minority Report.

I don't believe in any religion. it's for retards.

I might be a retard for a reason, but you're just a retard for the hell of it.

Trog's on my side. Get off my forum.

Nah I'm not leaving, and I will never let Muslim fundamentalists dictate foreign policy either :)

Yeah because foreign policy dictated by secular oil hungry savages is obviously working wonders for the world..

You wouldn't want to give me any power over the likes of you. Wait til i get my hands on that frozen throne, i just gotta make sure my PC specs and internet are up to date and i will pwn you.

I know you want to see Israel destroyed just like every other crazy Muslim. You need to preach the message of love! Hate makes people with big guns very nervous. :)

No i don't. Meanwhile you want to see every muslim country destroyed just because you believe you have a superior way of life.

Also, trog's a muslim but he ain't crazy, so i don't know what you're talking about?

Besides, he would've blown you already if he really wanted to, but unlike you he ain't a homo.

there are really muslims on this forum? Interesting. i thought it was just jokes.
So, how does it feel to worship a religion who's writings support the murder of anyone who doesn't follow its ideas?

Oh, so you would be OK with an invasion AFTER Israel had been hit with a nuke? Thanks for clearing that up.

Uh, doesn't that make more sense than an invasion BEFORE they were hit with a nuke? Are you proposing that we invade everyone that has ill will towards Israel just on the off chance that they are going to blow up Israel?

While we're at it we probably should invade Pakistan and/or India to make sure those guys don't start throwing rocks. s***, I care more about Pakistan and India starting a war because that will affect the cricket!

But but but terrorists!

There are really muslims on this forum? Interesting. i thought it was just jokes.
So, how does it feel to worship a religion who's writings support the murder of anyone who doesn't follow its ideas?

wow, the ignorance is strong in that one.

What i'm about to say below may offend some readers but rest assure it is merely for my enjoyment and no harm is intended:

Firstly, yes there are muslims on this forum you bats*** blind bastard. I bet you didn't think they'd be any here because you think any word that comes out of our mouth has to be in the form of "durka durka mohammad jihad alalalalalalalalalalala". Well guess what they've been here for years and are about to take over. Get ready to get f***ed up, a******.

Secondly, you don't worship a religion, you huge uncircumcised dick. You worship god through religion. Something tells me you don't even know what a religion is. Clearly a sign of an ignorant atheist such as yourself. Get off your high horse and go get edumacated then come back and express more of your s*** for brain misconceptions.

Thirdly, Islam does not support the murder of anyone that does not follows its "ideas". If that was the case you wouldn't be posting on this forum cause you'd be dead rotting in your WoW chair, provided that you aren't already rotting from 2 months worth of continuous play. FAG.

Finally, you're going off topic, so why don't we get back on track and continue to talk about infi's awakening and realisation of his inner jew. IDIOT!

MatchFixa knows what the koran says about infidels and he regularly espouses those fundamentalist ideas on this forum.

I am sure MatchFixa would be very proud of the way rebelling students were crushed under the boots of Iranian security forces, earlier this year. What were the protesting against? Yeah their theocratic controlled government. Turkey is heading the same way I hear. Mixing of religion and state is a very dangerous thing.

A nice full page of classic infi strawmans, Vash's ignorant bigotry, and Matchfixah chomping down HARD on the tasty tasty bait.

This is QGL.

trog's a muslim

whut?

Why islam over buddhism, Christianity, greek gods ?

Also, religion, lol.

I gotta second that lol on religion.

But you have to be pretty dumb to say 'omg mr muslim man, did you know your religion says to kill all people and your scripture promotes violence?!?'

trog's a muslim

whut?

Yeah that's what i thought when i first saw him prostrating towards Mecca, later it turns out he was kneeling to pick up the QGL phat lootz overflowing from his pockets. Close enough i say..

But you have to be pretty dumb to say 'omg mr muslim man, did you know your religion says to kill all people and your scripture promotes violence?!?'

I didn't pose it as a question. MatchFixa uses the words invaders and infidels repeatedly on this forum and he knows full well their usage in the fundamentalist context.

I was referring to Vash.

Yet I am pretty sure everytime I have ever seen Matchfixah use the word infidel he was using it ironically.

Invaders yes, no 2 ways about it. I mean.. how can you argue with that.. but infidels?

LOL, sounds like fpot was right in calling you a massive retarded alarmist. Seriously.

yeah i think matchfixah dribbles as much s*** as anyone on here (except about HTC desires, respect) but I don't think he genuinely thinks infidels should be executed
i actually think that your thoughts about invading iran are possibly stupider and less thought through than most of what comes out of his mouth, and that is saying something

wow, the ignorance is strong in that one.

What i'm about to say below may offend some readers but rest assure it is merely for my enjoyment and no harm is intended:

Firstly, yes there are muslims on this forum you bats*** blind bastard. I bet you didn't think they'd be any here because you think any word that comes out of our mouth has to be in the form of "durka durka mohammad jihad alalalalalalalalalalala". Well guess what they've been here for years and are about to take over. Get ready to get f***ed up, a******.

Secondly, you don't worship a religion, you huge uncircumcised dick. You worship god through religion. Something tells me you don't even know what a religion is. Clearly a sign of an ignorant atheist such as yourself. Get off your high horse and go get edumacated then come back and express more of your s*** for brain misconceptions.

Thirdly, Islam does not support the murder of anyone that does not follows its "ideas". If that was the case you wouldn't be posting on this forum cause you'd be dead rotting in your WoW chair, provided that you aren't already rotting from 2 months worth of continuous play. FAG.

Finally, you're going off topic, so why don't we get back on track and continue to talk about infi's awakening and realisation of his inner jew. IDIOT!

Thankyou, but I spilt my coffee.

Outrageous post!!

Vash, consider yourself pwned.

Turkey is heading the same way I hear. Mixing of religion and state is a very dangerous thing.

Turkey was pretty cool when I went there ~2 years ago. Didn't seem overly religious at all. No more then Australia, at least. Most people were really friendly and for a Muslim country, alcohol was just as abundant as it is here.
This isn't just in the main cities and tourist traps either, this is in local towns and villages too.

The few bits of information we gleamed about their (then) current government were less religious then the person you wish to be PM.

Yeh plz lets not derail this thread into a religion thread

The few bits of information we gleamed about their (then) current government were less religious then the person you wish to be PM.

Have a listen to Steve Austin's interview with Peter Hitchens on ABC last night... as he reported after his visit there last month.

BTW I don't consider it a religion debate, it's more a theocratic government debate - because the specific religion is irrelevant, it's just that it's happening most frequently in Muslim states.

i actually think that your thoughts about invading iran are possibly stupider and less thought through than most of what comes out of his mouth, and that is saying something

Thanks! wait.. wuh???

Thankyou, but I spilt my coffee.

Outrageous post!!

Vash, consider yourself pwned.

Glad you enjoyed reading it as much as i enjoyed writing it. I was actually laughing inside my head as i wrote/typed it.

It's happening here Infi and you're activly supporting the candate for it.
You seem so scared of the Muslim influence, but seem so eger to promote something just as bad.

I'm interested to hear from a religious intelligent (oxymoron?) person explain their reasons for worshiping god, and the reason of their choice of the religion. solely of their own influence, and not of their families.

I am going to go against everything I have ever believed in here and try and make a serious post... here goes.

Think about everything you have experienced in your life Vash, from when you first became aware of the world around you until now. While you are thinking that, understand the complexity of the human mind, and it's ability to interpret things and about how every single person in the world has had a singular experience and then on top of that, their own unique interpretation of that experience. Now for some people (like me) that experience can lead down a completely non-spiritual pathway. Things that can have influence over this path can be things you have seen, things you have heard, things you have done and the environment in which these things were experienced in.

Knowing this how can you possibly sit there and say that there is only one right way to view things (ie atheism) and that people who see things differently are unintelligent? All it does is show that you have a terrible lack of perspective, and are unable to break the binds of your own small little mind.

I'm interested to hear from a religious intelligent (oxymoron?) person explain their reasons for worshiping god

No you're not. You're interested in attempting to find and expose loop holes for the sake of argument and to extend your e-penis on a forum riding the religious hating bandwagon. If you're that interested then go see an Imam or scholar (who have at least attained a 7 year long degree and are more edumacated than i'll ever be) and find the answer for yourself. Until then, you're not interested and you won't change your mind sitting in your wow chair, and i'll continue to drive ill informed posts such as your previous one to the ground with cheap dirty tactics.

you sounded like Dom Cobb, fpot.

I can sense a nuke coming down and blowing our lasts posts out of orbit, fpot.

Just so you know, it wasn't me.

My theory is that trog will let them stay as long as we don't continue it.

And Dom Cobb was cool. I am proud to be like him.

And Dom Cobb was cool.

But completely removed from reality.

Oh is that what you meant. Yeah I am pretty sure I am not completely removed from reality. I'd love to know how you got that impression though.

btw, is 'infi' mean't to be short for something? i don't want to say the full word *god forbid* in case i get accused of perpetuating fundamentalist extremist bali bomblastist ideas in an atheist dick riding forum.

Either that or 'Inexperience & No f***ing Idea'.

infinex

It's happening here Infi and you're activly supporting the candate for it.
You seem so scared of the Muslim influence, but seem so eger to promote something just as bad.

[citation needed]

When has Abbott made policy decisions based on his own beliefs? From what I gather the RU486 incident was him acting on advice from a TGA advisory panel, not his own beliefs. He has said in this campaign he is in favour of "safe, legal and rare" abortions, despite his bearded sky wizard beliefs. And, I'm under the impression that this is a matter of consensus amongst the major parties.

It's a commonly known fact that Abbott has an imaginary friend, it's obvious to everyone that this would have a Christian influence on his thought process.

Just as large/small as the Muslim influence in Turkey. Which Infi seems so scared of.

It's a commonly known fact that Abbott has an imaginary friend, it's obvious to everyone that this would have a Christian influence on his thought process.

He really needs to stop using churchie terms in speeches and talks. "Robbing Peter to pay Paul" etc etc.

it's an old gaming name from quake2, just shortened for convenience. just like nf or reso or fpot. nothing so symbolic or spiritual as the religious loonies like to interpret.

robbing peter to pay paul

i always thought that was referring to the music group

ok, our work here is done


er wait, no, the other thing

the barbarians have been doing that for a thousand years. it's not like having US army there is going to stop them.