So, the games industry (at least in Australia) being what it is atm, there isn't really enough jobs to go around, so I'm ducking out and looking at taking a 6 month contract as a C++ programmer then coming back when things pick up a bit more.

Thing is, I have absolutely no idea what money to ask for when I'm asked what I want. What would be a good rate (per day seems to be how its quoted for contracts, at least from what I've seen), for a C++ programmer with 6 years or so of experience, plus a bunch of SQL/PHP type experience. I checked out that Hays IT Salary thing, but C++ programmer isn't specifically on there, and its for salaries anyway, not contract work.

Was just on the phone to a recruiter, and when they asked me what I want and I said I had no idea, they offered me $320 a day (which equates out to something like $76,000) a year. Thats a s***load more than I was getting making games, so I just immediately said yes, but now I'm thinking if they offered that so readily then I probably could have pushed it quite a bit higher.

remember the recruiter will take a fair slice of that money too.

Does the recruiter take my money, or do the guys I'm working for pay the recruiter on top of what they're paying me?

the employer will pay the recruiter.

320/8 = $40 per hour. For a contract wage (no sick pay, holiday pay, superannuation) thats not unbelievably awesome, but its not a kick in the teeth either. I used to get $50/hr for programming consultation but that wasn't contract work and it was only a couple of hours here and there. One of the last jobs I did before resuming my studies was 40 hours over a month period @ $30/hr although that was some prototyping work and documentation rather than programming.

I guess my point is, it really depends on the exact nature of the work, the funds the employer has available, and how badly you need the work. You may find you get a lot of offers at only $240/day ($30/hr). If it was me, i'd ask the recruiter to put "$240/day - $480/day depending on type of work". Gives you wiggle room to negotiate if someone asks for something complex and vice/versa. You dont want to only put $480/day becuase you may scare off some nice easy work that can only afford $300/day.

I think it depends on your situation. The recruiter typically is paid by the company.
As a contractor you can either charge the company directly and handle all the paperwork yourself, or you can be contracted out by an umbrella company that handles all the employment paperwork but takes their cut of the contracting rates.

40 per hour is reasonable, but not amazing, assuming you are employed by the recruiter (so super is on top, they handle your tax etc). You don't need to supply any equipment right? Remember also that you probably don't get any leave entitlements in that rate.

No idea what the market is like in your area, so its hard to gauge the figure. Its only 6 months though, and you will be taking more money than you did before, so sounds good?

Wait, what, $76k was a s***load more than you were on writing games? Remember that in that you don't get paid holidays, sick leave, super etc - you basically need to add 50% loading. As a Java/Flex dev at the moment with a little less experience than you say you have, I'm being paid $55/he at the moment, which I would think to be a similar appropriate rate for a reasonable C++ dev.

Also, don't take daily pay rates unless you get 8hours=1 day in the contract. Otherwise I gaursntee they'll want as many hours as they can get.

i would have thought salaries for a c++ programmer with that much experience would around the 100k mark.

so if you were doing contract you'd want a higher rate than that...

am i way off the mark?

Not sure if you're off the mark, cos I don't really know where the mark is. Just from going through Seek though it seems the number of jobs for just a pure C++ programmer are becoming rather limited. There were heaps of jobs I looked at that were listed as "C++ programmer", but then in the requirements also wanted Java and .NET experience (neither of which I have, or want to have).

Sounds like I could have asked for more though, ah well, lesson learnt for next time.

Also, don't take daily pay rates unless you get 8hours=1 day in the contract. Otherwise I gaursntee they'll want as many hours as they can get.

Ah yeah, good point, I guess I had just assumed 8 hours = 1 day, but its certainly something that would need to be locked down.

Wait, what, $76k was a s***load more than you were on writing games?

Yeah, I was on an embarassingly low salary, partly cos the work was awesome so I didn't mind so much, but partly also because there were promises of big payrises when the project we were working on finally paid off. Unfortunately, the economy went to s*** and publishers started tigtening their belts and nobody wanted to pick up our game and the company ran out of money before we could get our big payday. Such is the way of things I guess.

last edited by Khel at 12:52:18 08/Dec/09

There were heaps of jobs I looked at that were listed as "C++ programmer", but then in the requirements also wanted Java and .NET experience (neither of which I have, or want to have).

That'll be a problem dude. Most firms will want you to work within a framework for productivity reasons.

There aren't that many commercial software houses that don't use .Net or J2EE or that f***en weird Oracle forms s*** or something. Its just not profitable to build that stuff from the ground up.

My mate is in the same boat as you Khel. He previously worked at Transmission Games (IR Gurus) that went bust. If they are looking for more peeps can you PM me some info, I'll pass it onto him.

As far as contracting goes, I think 50% loading is extreme. I deal with contractors and expect 25%. Also, as one person said above, just make sure you read the contract five times and understand everything - then if you don't like something ask it to be changed. If the only opportunity that you have to do this is sitting in the room with them, don't rush, make them wait while you read it thoroughly.

Someone above suggested working as a sub-contractor on your own terms. I wouldn't recommend this unless you get substantially more reward. Not only do you have to manage (or outsource) your own book-keeping/accounting, you have things to consider like business insurance (public liability and professional indemnity) which is a considerable expense.

Also, being self-employed affects a lot of other things like home loan, etc. It's much better to be PAYG employee if you can get a rate that you are happy with to maintain your lifestyle.

EDIT: On Java, just download Netbeans/Java SDK and play with it for a while. You'll see that C++ to Java is f***-all learning curve. C++ to say C# is a bit more of a learning curve. Also, I would apply for such jobs anyway. I always tell myself that the employer might get no CVs - so I might be the best option they have. Stay positive.

When I ran my own penetration testing company, I would charge $100 each time I got a successful bug. Some customers paid nothing. I charged some customers over $8k for a single days work. I then charged $50/hr for any remediation requested to help patch these bugs.

There were heaps of jobs I looked at that were listed as "C++ programmer", but then in the requirements also wanted Java and .NET experience (neither of which I have, or want to have).

That'll be a problem dude. Most firms will want you to work within a framework for productivity reasons.

Surely Java or .NET would be advantageous even in a games development context? Don't most games companies develop in house tool sets in these type of platforms?

my last c# contract was at $45 an hour, with similar years of experience. dont know the supply : demand for c++ developers.

Surely Java or .NET would be advantageous even in a games development context? Don't most games companies develop in house tool sets in these type of platforms?

Not sure, especially re. D3D stuff. Maybe there's .Net in that?

My gut and random postings I've seen says that games programming is still pure C and C++ for performance reasons. The CLR is nice and productive to develop on and a few percent hit doesn't matter on a desktop that is just showing windows forms ... but in a 3D game performance is probably too important, especially on consoles where you want the best game possible but the hardware is locked in?

You can do D3D stuff within .NET, but most games are, as hog mentioned, devloped in pure C++ (or at least, they were up until DX9 - i havent looked at 10/11 SDK's yet).

I think Dazhel is referring to programs like map editors, object editors, package editors, etc. etc. that the content dev team use. All of those apps are probably written in .NET.

I think Dazhel is referring to programs like map editors, object editors, package editors, etc. etc. that the content dev team use. All of those apps are probably written in .NET.

Would these items be developed in-house or licensed?

I know the big guns like Blizzard and BioWare often make their own map editors as they release a version of them to Joe Public, but surely most companies just license this stuff like the Unreal Engine?

Yeah, if you're licensing an engine, you'd be getting tools with it. The last place I worked at didn't license and engine, and tried to make their own engine with their own toolset and that played a large part in their downfall imo. We were trying to build the game, while the engine team was still developing the engine, and the tools team were still building the tools, it was just mayhem.

Yeah I meant the litter of tools used by the content creation teams rather than the actual games themselves written in C# etc.

If you've licensed an off the shelf engine then perhaps a lot of the tools will come with the engine but I think there would still be a demand for software tools highly specific to an individual company.

Then again I might be completely wrong here, because I haven't worked in a games studio before, and/or the programs that are written in house are done in C++ and something like MFC due to readily available skill sets.

if they are paying you 40 then the employer is paying around 120-150 to the recruiter - maybe more

My husband has been a C++ programmer for 17 years and a games programmer for 10 years. He is a senior programmer at his studio and his salary is LESS than $60K gross. It's pathetic.

I actually think it's disgusting and insulting that this is what companies are paying these days. I don't want to say too much more for anonymity reasons, but I'm pushing him to move out of gaming. Our household just can't function on such terrible pay.

^
He sounds like a gun programmer - should be getting a six-figure lead / software architect role and considering a move into middle management by now!

Sub-60 (metro?!) for that sort of experience in any technical profession is atrocious.

Sounds like Gaming Studios exploit somewhat people's desire to be in the gaming industry. Sounds pretty low form to me.

sanderson, got pics?

I work at a company that employs C/C++ contractors. With 6+ years of xp, if you have a degree you could manage $80-90 per hour, without around 70. If you had five years J2EE xp, you could manage $90-100/h. Every dollar you aren't taking the recruiter is on your behalf.

These rates sound great but remember the employer will really expect you to know your s*** and if you don't measure up you could be given as little as a few hours notice depending on your contract.

last edited by 3z at 21:52:19 19/Dec/09

last edited by 3z at 21:55:31 19/Dec/09

My husband has been a C++ programmer for 17 years and a games programmer for 10 years. He is a senior programmer at his studio and his salary is LESS than $60K gross. It's pathetic.

I actually think it's disgusting and insulting that this is what companies are paying these days. I don't want to say too much more for anonymity reasons, but I'm pushing him to move out of gaming. Our household just can't function on such terrible pay.

Welcome to the games industry. Unless you are seriously s*** hot and known in the industry for it, pay is crap. People seem to forget that being a game developer no longer has that whole rockstar image going on.

You do it because you love it and you will find that in the majority of companys.
The only people I have seen on higher than that are either 6+ year company veterans or people who are just s*** hot with engines etc.

Thats just based on my experiance. You can make a heap more money working for a company doing freelance applications etc but you suffer the corporate culture and lack of fun :P

Poor pay, poor conditions, poor job security.

But hey, there's a foosball table and you get to play xbox with the other dudes after work!

Well, its not like poor job security is something the game industry is historically known for, its only lately that things have been rocky, and that sort of thing is hardly limited to just the games industry right now.

As for conditions, maybe theres some sweatshop type games companies out there that treat their staff like utter s***, but I was working for a tiny little pretty much unknown games company and the conditions were still better than most other jobs I've had. Easily the most laid back, fun, open work environment I've been in, much more collaboration and creative s*** and people actually enjoying their work than I've seen at past jobs too.

But yes, pay is s***, if money is important its not the industry you should be in. And as for a thread update, still looking for jobs, talked to some more recruiters and checking out a few things, but I'd still rather work in games so I've been throwing resumes far and wide, applying at the new studio Ubisoft is opening in Toronto and all sorts of other overseas s***, but I really don't know if I have much chance of landing an overseas job. There'd be plenty of unemployed game developers overseas right now too I'm sure, so I don't see companies willing to relocate someone from Australia :(

Also got my resume in and did a programming test for Firemint here in Melbourne, they seem to be one of the few games companies that is actually expanding and doing really, really well (mostly it seems off the back of their iphone games). So fingers crossed.

what does a programming test involve?

write code
check code for errors
explain concepts
do logic puzzles

i did one for a hedge fund where one of the questions was meant to be answered by a combination of grep/tail/other unix commands and instead wrote out a java program and they were like 'lols'.

Also got my resume in and did a programming test for Firemint here in Melbourne, they seem to be one of the few games companies that is actually expanding and doing really, really well (mostly it seems off the back of their iphone games). So fingers crossed.

Best of luck with the application.
I just picked up their top little iphone game 'Flight Control'. Awesome game!