Apologies for the newsdotcom article(trog).

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/comments/0,23836,25331636-3122,00.html
(fixed! hapi now Mr Kranky Anus)

Thing is GM is about to file for bankruptcy in a few wks and Holden as we all know hasnt been making a profit on their bogan chariots for quite some time. So the question is do we want to keep throwing our tax dollars down the s***ter just to prop up a dying Aussie icon?

Learn to f%&(* link!

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/comments/0,23836,25331636-3122,00.html

No great loss I say. People will moan and wail about the great institution that Holden was, 'THE australian car company' and all that crap. In reality they are no more Aussie than MMAL was or FoMoCoAus is, or even Toyota Aus for that matter.

holdens haven't been a good car since about 1970 something, commodores are all imported plastic s*** that fall apart as soon as you drive them away. I've seen near new models driving around with faded tail lights, headlights/stoplights that don't work (always the right hand side for some reason) and their bonnet/boot paint goes all f***ed within a year.

Seriously, f*** holden.

Not a huge loss. Well, cept for people who work for Holden I guess..

Im down with the "not a great loss"

i guess that will free up some spots for some good cars in the V8 Supercars

bring on the R35

holden in australia wil never go down, the gevenment wont allow it, they need to somehow seperate from the american owners though.

Holden has been recently shown to be commercially viable. Yes, it's a GM subsidiary, but it's not in the same financial state as GM.

The biggest problem for Holden now is that the new deal in South Australia requires significant investment from GM. GM of course is surviving on US Gov't money, and part of that deal is that any money leaving the country has to be signed-off on by a committee who overseas the investment.

So essentially the US committee will decide on whether the investment into building a small car in South Australia is viable.

I work in Automotive. For me it would be a loss. I hope that they are able to rapidly adapt to the market.

The reality is that if we want auto OEMs in Australia they need to come up with something new that someone wants to buy. Whether it's turbo diesel, hybrids, or some new technology - the auto industry has to adapt, and that is what they are trying to do so we will see what happens.

Holden has been American owned since 1931... Aussie icon my arse...
They ruined it for themsleves by giving bogans free hats and t-shirts with their logo.

That maybe true Pinky but I recently saw a doco about the Chinese Automotive industry and it was quite scarey to say the least.

The Chinese are probably 5-10 yrs away from making high quality vehicles that will match anything from Europe for considerably less money because Johnny Wang will work for fiddy cents an hour 12 hrs a day.

That maybe true Pinky but I recently saw a doco about the Chinese Automotive industry and it was quite scarey to say the least.

The Chinese are probably 5-10 yrs away from making high quality vehicles that will match anything from Europe for considerably less money because Johnny Wang will work for fiddy cents an hour 12 hrs a day.

Yeah but this is not a new problem. It has always been solved by Gov'ts introducing tarifs. The Gov't has been steadily removing tarifs and signing free-trade agreements and that's what's making it tough for Australian cars to compete.

Yes, I am neo-liberal and I agree with the 'free market' as an ideal - however, everyone is always talking about "Cheap labour in China". It's not just China: South Africa, Mexico, etc, etc. I think Australia should become more self-sufficient and the Gov't introduces import taxes again which increases the cost of imported vehicles and makes Australian vehicles more competitive locally. It creates a healthier local economy but at the risk of an unhealthy export economy for autos.

It's a fine balance. I think it would be interesting to be a part of the decision-making process.

an australia without holdens and ford passenger vehicles is a much better australia

and what are these magical chinese cars that match anything out of europe?

Chinese just pump out knock-offs. Without yankee and european designs they would be nowhere.

Chinese just pump out knock-offs. Without yankee and european designs they would be nowhere.

Yeah but the real problem is that consumers are prepared to accept that. Just like they are happy to buy $7 t-shirts knowing some poor 5yo kid's fingers probably bled making them.

Or maybe it's because we only make mid-size and large family cars in Australia. Which Holden is a young female likely to buy as her first car? Either an Astra, Barina, or Viva, which aren't made in Australia.

last edited by Mantorok at 13:11:44 14/Apr/09

How much protectionism is in the Australian car industry? I have this recollection that import cars (like from Japan where they actually make good solid ones) have quite a lot of tariffs on them or something, but can't remember.

Matthew-Wilson has also slammed the Australian Government's decision to offer the automotive industry a $6 billion bailout package, including millions for the development of green cars. He says the size of Australia's market and the relatively high cost of labour means there is no way to make the industry viable in the long term.



"The Australian car industry can re-focus on small cars, green cars, blue cars or red cars. None of this will make the slightest difference.



"Globally, there's a glut of new cars at bargain prices, yet Australia, which produces a small number of high cost cars, is trying to compete with countries like China, which produces 10 million cars a year and pays its car workers as little as one dollar per hour.



"Australia's car plants are losing money faster than a drunk at a casino, and there's no feasible way of turning this around."

From an SmartCompany.com.au blog. http://www.smartcompany.com.au/manufacturing/20090414-australian-car-makers-doomed-holden-first-to-go-expert.html

I think there's only one good thing that Holden and Ford have over the competition - cheap to own and cheap to fix, full size, rear wheel drive cars. Any other type of car and you'd be mad to buy a holden or ford over a quality japanese example like a toyota (except for maybe a focus, but thats as euro as they come anyway).

f*** holden and their pos cars, the only good holdens are the ones that aren't made here, eg astra, vectra etc..

Why would we bother to try and compete? it's a large reason the american economy is so f***ed. They continue to try and subsidise industries, that they just aren't viable in.

I feel bad for everyone at Holden/GM and Chrysler too, it would be horrible working there. Atleast holden might be bought by someone. But i feel no "iconic" link to the brand.

As an aside, for those citing "buy an asian instead" ford were in the top 3 most reliable car brands in the world (european study, google it). Went toyota, honda, ford, then more asian brands. I'm not certain on this, but i think ford still haven't accepted any bail out money, and they will probably see this out. Them re-focusing 7-10 years ago to diversify and get back to quality, is helping them now. Its why they had so much trouble with the Auto workers union over the last 5 years, they got sick of over paying to s*** work.

All in all, i hope none of them fall, there's alot of jobs at stake.

last edited by giririsss at 13:43:04 14/Apr/09

If the Australian government were serious about protecting the Australian auto industry, they wouldn't be going about it the way they are at the moment, which is just to slap a giant tax on any imported vehicle. What they'd do is change the standards required for a vehicle to be sold here, which many imported cars (particularly Indian and Chinese manufactured ones) don't come close to meeting.

In recent years we've seen companies like SsanYong aggressively push, but do you think many people have bothered to look at any of their crash test vehicles?

You'd be safer driving a Smart car.

As for Holden products though, look at it realistically - the car which sells here is a locally made one. The ones with all the problems (Astra, Vectra, Viva) are all other GM subsidiary designs (Opel, Vauxhaull etc)

last edited by Raven at 13:39:25 14/Apr/09

so what are these chinese cars? are they just rebadged jap cars or is there a chinese brand i've never heard of? if they are pumping out 10million cars per year surely someone knows what brand they are :p

personally i won't miss holdens... i only like pre-1980s holdens & fords anyways.

Cherry Motor Company - rumoured to be coming to Australia thanks to some Australian importing company.

I think their most popular car is a Daewoo Matiz knockoff.

Never had a Holden, never will have a Holden. Don't care.

i had a google for cherry motor company & got a whole heap of hits for youtube crash test that are not at all favourable for the company ;p



i don't think there is much to fear from india's cars either... remember that 'people's car' that there was a thread on qgl about a while back? with it's s***ty 10hp engine & 'optional' rearview mirrors :p

i tried to find the thread with the search but got distracted by some classic old qgl car threads :P

Cars cant be made here in Australia and the industry should be allowed to die.
The problem is there is so many workers involved in industries that work with the car industry that the job losses would be huge.

Factor that into the current crisis and thats a social disaster coming.
The Liberal government sat on its surplus and did not plan for our future.
Now Brother Krudd has given it all away and we are still up s*** creek with no paddle.

IIRC, one of the main reasons that I doubt they will go under in Australia is because the Federal Government requires a certain level of heavy industry within Australia.

I'm not sure if it's still in place (although I'd be surprised if it wasn't), but formerly, every large industrial manufacturing plant had to have a militarisation path, whereby they had detailed steps laid out to convert their manufacturing processes to military production (whether that be tanks, bullets, machine gun link, rockets, explosives etc, depended on their primary purpose).

I couldn't be arsed finding a source for it, but I'm reasonably certain this was put in place in order to provide a rapid source of armament etc in case we were ever invaded.

The Chinese are probably 5-10 yrs away from making high quality vehicles that will match anything from Europe for considerably less money because Johnny Wang will work for fiddy cents an hour 12 hrs a day.

Most of the cheap chinese alternatives I've come across for EVERYTHING are just that, extremely cheap feeling plastic knockoffs of the real thing. I can only imagine what kind of s***box china will churn out with their 0 safety laws. The paint would have lead in it, the seats would be stuffed with asbestos, the airbags would be inflated by hydrogen and the body of the car would be made of f***ing rice crackers.

Holden hasn't been aussie since gm started making hte motors. That was about 20 years ago.

yeah who cares, holden and ford are both completely retarded

who the f*** releases a 7 litre V8 motor during an oil shortage?
they shouldn't get any more bailouts, let them collapse

the world will recover and execs in the future wont be able to make similar mistakes (hopefuly)

sorry to anyone who works in the industry, its not your fault - but its not ours either.

it's an excellent time to be encouraging the blatant consumption of fossil fuels - the quicker they run out the faster we'll be forced to find better alternatives, or maybe alternatives that are just as bad or worse!

my next car will be a V8, or maybe a V10

i was under the impression that Holden was one of the few profitable sectors of GM? is that wrong?

Yes, I am neo-liberal and I agree with the 'free market' as an ideal - however, everyone is always talking about "Cheap labour in China". It's not just China: South Africa, Mexico, etc, etc. I think Australia should become more self-sufficient and the Gov't introduces import taxes again which increases the cost of imported vehicles and makes Australian vehicles more competitive locally. It creates a healthier local economy but at the risk of an unhealthy export economy for autos.

how would this create a 'healthier' local economy? could you point out any one single period in history where economic protectionism has benefitted anyone apart from the vested interest groups it protects (at the expense of the consumer)?

If the Australian government were serious about protecting the Australian auto industry, they wouldn't be going about it the way they are at the moment, which is just to slap a giant tax on any imported vehicle. What they'd do is change the standards required for a vehicle to be sold here, which many imported cars (particularly Indian and Chinese manufactured ones) don't come close to meeting.

this wouldn't fly with the WTO. this has been a well recognised form of trade protection for decades. essentially it's even worse than tariffs and import quotas in that its effects are extremely difficult to quantify.


edit: failquoteLUL

last edited by taggs at 17:31:30 14/Apr/09

"Synthetic CDO's are complex little known financial instruments (insurance contracts) that are on the brink of triggering "the most colossal rights issue in the history of the world, all at once .. mandatory." If, out of a list of several hundred major companies, any nine go bankrupt, the CDO's are in default, which would mean a mass transfer of cash (real money) from unsuspecting investors around the world goes into the banking system. How much? Nobody knows, but it’s many trillions. Banks will be flush with cash, perhaps ending the credit crisis, while many investors (individuals, charities, municipalities) will be wiped out. Alternatively, the triggering of default on the trillions of synthetic CDOs could be a disaster that tips the world from recession into depression. Nobody knows, but it won’t be a small event. Thus far the count is six: three Icelandic banks, Countrywide, Lehman and Bear Stearns. "

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/A-tsunami-of-hope-or-terror-LHRJP?OpenDocument

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/A-dawn-of-false-hope-pd20090414-R47QW?OpenDocument

So we're up to seven now, eight if we include GM. Aus has something like 13 trillion dollars exposure and the US ~200 trillion.

What's the fallout going to be like when we hit 9?

Don't you think 13 bankruptcies would have been more appropriate?

f*** off faceman

Holden hasn't been aussie since gm started making hte motors. That was about 20 years ago.

The only US made motors are the LSx series of motors, ie the V8s. And Holden has been sourcing US built V8s on and off for over 40 years. The 6-cylinder motors in the commodore went from the last of the Aussie designed and made in 1986, to an imported nissan motor, then to an aussie-built off a Buick design in 1988 which was retired in 2004. Since 2004 all the Commodore 6-cyl motors have been of australian build and design.
But hey, Holden have never been any more aussie than FoMoCo, MMAL or Toyota Aus. They'd just like to make aussies think they are.

who the f*** releases a 7 litre V8 motor during an oil shortage?

I don't think there's much of a shortage. And the LS1/LS2 motors are surprisingly good on fuel for such a large motor. Being a pushrod motor, they don't have extra cams to drive, which does actually decrease fuel usage compared to a motor of the same size but with a DOHC configuration. Piss poor power output for the size however, that's the pushrod tradeoff.

last edited by MrHardware at 20:22:22 14/Apr/09

missed the point in a huge way; holden as far as I'm aware - don't have any hybrid cars?

they're not even trying, in fact they seem to be going the exact opposite way..
they knew we were coming into a recession and they (+GM) continue to make stupid decisions which aren't inline with practical requirements/desires of consumers

they couldn't make smart business decisions which would keep their business afloat, hence their business shouldn't be kept afloat?
"too big to fail" is bulls*** if you ask me, they proved it already

about 6 months ago I went and looked at 5 or 6 different utes
I had at the time just written off a pretty quick 2 door rice burner thing and had no desire at the time to get into anything "slow" or non sporty

I've always had the desire to go fast like a lot of young male 18-25 year olds, loved my rice burner when I had it so the hsv ute was the obvious choice for me
I ended up with a turbo diesel because it was like 9.5L/100 compared to about 18L/100? on the Maloo

5 years ago I would have jumped at the hsv, petrol around 90-100c not too concerning because everyone was doing pretty well, oblivious to what was coming

and their bonnet/boot paint goes all f***ed within a year.

Stop parking under trees with dropbears.

i guess in the end ford wins.... sigh... im no holden fan, jap all the way.. but still sigh...

missed the point in a huge way; holden as far as I'm aware - don't have any hybrid cars?

they're not even trying, in fact they seem to be going the exact opposite way..

I attended ICSAT 2008 and Richard Marshall gave a very convincing presentation of Holden's move to these technologies. Some of which is documented here.

Yeah seriously tequila you seem to be outraged and outspoken on a topic you really have no idea about.

First of all larger displacement of an engine does not mean larger fuel consumption.

Secondly I fail to see how you complaining about a 7 litre V8 in any way makes it clear that you're saying Holden isn't trying/developing new technologies in anticipation of the end of fossil fuels. To me they seem like two very different ends of the market and really quite unrelated, especially when the 7 litre V8 came from GM in the US and had nothing to do with Holden's R&D.

And thirdly Holden have been making very public their forays into Hybrid and alternative fuels, including talk of a Hybrid VE in 2010.

yeah they're talking, but not doing s*** about it when other car companies have been mass producings hybrids for the past few years

I'm not outraged, I'm outspoken because I as a tax payer am sick to death of my tax dollars going into 100% useless investments
bailouts for companies that aren't profitable when there are issues far more important and far closer to home

I couldn't give two f***s if holden went under, infact I hope they do
the next car company that steps up to take their place will have to make more fiscally sound decisions
the real world is survival of the fittest, not survival of the one that's "too big to fail"

btw in case you've been living under a rock, GM=Holden=GM
their employees will get on with their lives, people are resilient for the most part

First of all larger displacement of an engine does not mean larger fuel consumption.

The engine got bigger, the fuel consumption went higher - your argument sucks

Secondly I fail to see how you complaining about a 7 litre V8 in any way makes it clear that you're saying Holden isn't trying/developing new technologies in anticipation of the end of fossil fuels.

that wasn't my argument, I'm not comparing them at all - I'm saying they appear to be going the opposite way
as for this; "had nothing to do with holden because it came from GM"

what a total crock of bulls***, they could have just said "oh no thats a silly idea, we're running out of fossil fules so we should be using a 4.0l V8 and make it highly economical" like toyota/bmw/etc have been doing for years

GM turned down importing the hsv ute, Holden could have just as easily said your 7litre donk is ridiculous and not inline with what our consumers want (which has now been proven by the profits, or lack there of)

last edited by tequila at 09:34:00 15/Apr/09

7 litres of fail

the real world is survival of the fittest, not survival of the one that's "too big to fail"

survival of the fittest, not the fattest is what i would have gone for

has more of a zing to it

i guess that will free up some spots for some good cars in the V8 Supercars

bring on the R35

Kind of off topic but..

Last I read/heard the R31/32's are faster around a track then the R35. The current gen v super cards flog the R31/32 "Godzillas" old lap records. Thus if they introduced ricelines wouldn't we be watching a slower race? :)

Last I read/heard the R31/32's are faster around a track then the R35. The current gen v super cards flog the R31/32 "Godzillas" old lap records. Thus if they introduced ricelines wouldn't we be watching a slower race? :)

lols

Last I read/heard the R31/32's are faster around a track then the R35

errrr, I don't think so. What are you comparing, R31/32 race-only customs with the R35 as delivered from the factory?

yeah that sounds like a bit-o-bulls*** right there

missed the point in a huge way; holden as far as I'm aware - don't have any hybrid cars?

they're not even trying, in fact they seem to be going the exact opposite way..
they knew we were coming into a recession and they (+GM) continue to make stupid decisions which aren't inline with practical requirements/desires of consumers

they couldn't make smart business decisions which would keep their business afloat, hence their business shouldn't be kept afloat?
"too big to fail" is bulls*** if you ask me, they proved it already

Building Hybrids is extremely expensive thats why I think they will just import the Chevy Volt(if it survives the bankruptcy) and rebadge it.
I actually dont blame Holden for avoiding to manufacture the Ozzie Volt here because Holden is such a small branch arm and for it undertake such a huge project as retooling for a Hybrid car is rather pointless.
Besides GM has stated many times that it will at least take until Gen.2.0 or maybe even 3.0 of the Volt before they make a profit on it. It was a similar story with the Prius which didnt start making a profit until Gen.2.0.

Holden is however working on a diesel engine and on a small 4cyclinder car. Which kinda makes sense for them. I think the point is that whatever they do its all a bit too late.

what diesel engine are they using in the captiva or whatever it is

not sure but I think the Captiva is an Opel something that Holden rebagdes.

heh ironee

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24632325-662,00.html

First of all larger displacement of an engine does not mean larger fuel consumption.

The engine got bigger, the fuel consumption went higher - your argument sucks

Excellent display of how a 4 year old would use false logic to prove something that isn't true.

I don't really see why you're so outraged about this 7 litre V8 anyway, it's only being used in a very limited edition, very high end vehicle of the performance arm of Holden. How is it any different to what companies that produce purely performance vehicles do? If there's a market for a small amount of these cars then there's a market.

Personally I don't really care if Holden goes under either (aside from knowing a couple of people who work for them), I've been quite a fan of their recent car designs but unfortunately I would never consider an Australian made car over a Japanese one.

Aside from that, I too was under the impression that Holden was one of the few arms of GM that was actually making a profit, though I admit I haven't really kept up with it for a while now... If GM went down would it take Holden with it?

heh ironee

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24632325-662,00.html

David Lamb worked at FORD for 28 years and advises the VIC gov't. He now works for the CSIRO. He was at the ICSAT 2008 conference I mentioned above.

He is constantly pushing a green agenda at these kinds of conferences.

However, these conferences are failing to engage industry. There was noone from FORD at ICSAT 2008. There was one person from Holden (Richard Marshall). The conferences are almost purely academic - which is just a sign of the times. There was representation from VIC gov't and scrap metal industry, but other than that very limited industry reps.

CSIRO has done a lot of work in this area but none of their ideas have been picked up as commercial products to date. I have not been involved in the decision making process - but I am 100% certain that there are good reasons for it. The auto industry isn't a hibernating animal - it's very self-aware of it's situation and very active. Any criticism that says otherwise in the media is by someone that isn't working for and has probably never worked for either OEM or any Tier one supplier.

not sure but I think the Captiva is an Opel something that Holden rebagdes.

Holden Captiva is actually a Daewoo Winstorm. Completely Daewoo.

How is it any different to what companies that produce purely performance vehicles do

they're not asking for billions in handouts to stay a float?

Excellent display of how a 4 year old would use false logic to prove something that isn't true.

^ excellent display of how someone might use a childish insult to detract from
their own short comings, you were wrong.

my logic is flawless :]

they're not asking for billions in handouts to stay a float?

Yeah because they don't have the high volume, low margin s***boxes to drag them down. But don't worry, they probably will be as well soon.

my logic is flawless :]

DONE.

larger capacity, more fuel consumption = you're still wrong

still lolling at you trying to use some bulls*** insult to take attention away from the fact that you were wrong

WRONG.

errrr, I don't think so. What are you comparing, R31/32 race-only customs with the R35 as delivered from the factory?

Well, it was a few years back, compared the 31 to 32 and 33 GTR's and showed them getting slightly slower each new model. The lap times and completion times are all available on-line. The late 90's "super taxies" where flogging the records set by the jap-taxis.

Would be nice if they opened up the field a bit and let in a few other cars. The we could see the 8L Monaro that smoked all the Jap cars and a lot of the euros in the GTP :D

Sigh tequila, all I said was that larger capacity does not mean larger fuel consumption, I'm sure you can find many examples of engines with a larger capacity being more efficient than smaller engines. I would find examples myself but you're such a troll I cbf wasting my time.

You were wrong, the end.

Here's some data on the GTR's getting progressively slower. I kind of stopped paying attention when I stopped really caring about cars and thinking that one is particularly better then another. I couldn't find a site with a further date range. I guess the new-fangled ones would be a lot faster though?

I came up with the argument after having guys driving 4banger jap cars with sewerage pipes for exhausts screaming to anyone who would listen that the GTR would still kill all the "supertaxis". Twas a few years back though, the R35's are probably a lot quicker and null this argument but it was valid for the years and years of people screaming about it :)

R32 http://imports101.com.au/reviews.php?id=22
R33 http://imports101.com.au/reviews.php?id=2
R34 http://imports101.com.au/reviews.php?id=10

go read up on R35s and come back when you are sorry

go read up on R35s and come back when you are sorry

I'd prefer to spout stuff when I haven't read about them thanks :)

But honestly, people have been screaming it for so very long, and it's always been wrong in the past, I just assumed it still was. The Skyline got progressively slower since the R31 (barring the 35 I suppose?) so for 10 or so years the "supertaxies" where actually faster on track.

Like I said before, it would be nice to have some of the Jap-Taxis in the race and open it up a bit more, then the 8L Jap-eating Monaro could come out and play on a larger stage instead of just the GTP :D

the r33 was slightly slower then the r32 but the r34 is quicker than both of them you f***ing tool, where are you getting this s*** from? and this is all in totally stock condition. the r33 could very well and would probably be quicker than the r32 if a proper race spec one was ever built.

you can't even compare times around bathurst with any other skyline apart from the 31 and 32 because there has not been another race spec r33 or r34 raced around it.

and you clearly have no f***ing idea what so ever about the r35

dips***

last edited by paveway at 17:00:16 15/Apr/09

all I said was that larger capacity does not mean larger fuel consumption

but we're talking about holden, not some euro car company
holden made bigger motors which used more fuel, therefore you are wrong
wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong
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the 3.6L alloytec V6 uses more fuel than the 3.8L ecotec V6

holdens haven't been a good car since about 1970 something, commodores are all imported plastic s*** that fall apart as soon as you drive them away. I've seen near new models driving around with faded tail lights, headlights/stoplights that don't work (always the right hand side for some reason) and their bonnet/boot paint goes all f***ed within a year. Seriously, f*** holden.

That is utter bulls***. I can think of a heap of car manufacturers pumping out worse crap than Holden ever has. I have a 02 commodore that has nothing wrong with it and only money i ever spend is on a service and normal maintenance. My friend also has a 2004 ss v8 in perfect condition. What model of car do you drive?

the 3.6L alloytec V6 uses more fuel than the 3.8L ecotec V6

dont bring your dirty facts into this mrhardware

the r33 was slightly slower then the r32 but the r34 is quicker than both of them you f***ing tool, where are you getting this s*** from? and this is all in totally stock condition. the r33 could very well and would probably be quicker than the r32 if a proper race spec one was ever built.

you can't even compare times around bathurst with any other skyline apart from the 31 and 32 because there has not been another race spec r33 or r34 raced around it.

and you clearly have no f***ing idea what so ever about the r35

dips***

The links I provided, and every thing else I've read show the R34 as being slightly slower then the R33. It also shows the 33 slower then the 32.

If a car got slower and slower each new incarnation then we can agree the first was the fastest correct? And if the first is slower then the last 10 years of v8 supercars then we can agree that the the next three models are also slower? You could factor in newer technology I guess.

Sounds like you know about as much as the R34 as I do the 35. Or perhaps in your world 13.7 seconds is faster then 13.5? If that was true then I guess you'd say the 13.5 of the 33 would be faster then the 13.3 of the 32 so we dip out on that theory.

I don't have any idea about the R35, I was just going on history, each car being slower then the last. I did do a quick google after someone picked me up on it though and can see that yes the newest incarnation of the jap-taxi is faster the the previous models (Finally, nly four complete new cars before they figured it out.).

I can see this is an emotionally charged issue for you. I hope you can see through the rage and read the numbers I linked previously. You could always go look it up yourself. One day you'll grow out of it mate, it's no big thing :)

syco, you need a cluepon..

I doubt very much the r31 can be faster than an r35.. Take the r35 nurburgring lap time, which was a few seconds faster than a 911. Are you telling me a r31 is faster than a 911?


r31 1/4 time - 16.1 seconds
r32 1/4 time - 13.9 seconds
r33 1/4 time - 13.6 seconds
r34 1/4 time - 13.7 seconds
r35 1/4 time - 11.7 seconds

2009 Nissan GT-R - 7:29 at the nurburgring.

so syco, by your calculations you are saying an r31 is faster than a r35? so that would mean it's as fast as the following..

Porsche Carrera GT - 7:28 at the nurburgring.
Pagani Zonda F Clubsport - 7:27 at the nurburgring.

Syco you are stupid.. Don't talk crap on stuff you know nothing about and have done no more than 7 seconds of half assed research. Your comparing apples and oranges. Compare the base model of the 32/33/34 and you will find they are all very similar. The 33 and 34 both got a tiny bit heavier each, but also had better suspension and better brakes and were quicker around a track.

p.s. all 3 models used the EXACT same engine in them (rb26dett). the differences in performance time around a track/straight line were purely based on changes to the suspension, brakes, and aero. The 33 and 34 also had a newer version of the ATESSA AWD system

you're making assumptions that because a car which you clearly have no idea about is .2 of a second slower in a straight line than it's previos model, that it's going to be slower around a race track?

yeah you sound like a dick. go away

last edited by paveway at 19:57:09 15/Apr/09

last edited by paveway at 19:58:23 15/Apr/09

I've already agreed the 35 is faster multiple times, I was just using the old argument I did years ago when I cared enough to keep up with it but have since looked up the 35. Like I said, I just went from history, I've had no real interest in car epeen races for a fair few years so haven't kept up on it. But it's cool, keep harping on one point.

The perceived "forced out because the race goers only want to watch one type of car race" has happened from both sides of the fence btw. The Monaro in the GTP was subjected to a hell of a lot of harsh limits other cars weren't (rev limits etc etc yet it still beat the jap cars/most of the euros).

MY TAXI IS BETTER THEN YOUR TAXI!

(PS, I actually own imported "Jap crap", it is nice to see people getting so fired up over the thing they wished they spent 30 minutes a day in :D )

You think we're fired up?

Ha, you make us laugh yet again..This is us just giving the typical newb a smackdown.

You think we're fired up?

Ha, you make us laugh yet again..This is us just giving the typical newb a smackdown.

Hey hey, my user ID is only 3000 odd over yours :D

C'mon that other bloke got a bit fired up. I think he might have some Nissan shares or something :D

it's an excellent time to be encouraging the blatant consumption of fossil fuels - the quicker they run out the faster we'll be forced to find better alternatives, or maybe alternatives that are just as bad or worse!

my next car will be a V8, or maybe a V10

I'm currently driving around in a v8 that uses petrol like a $2 whore uses cocaine, I can't wait till my daily comes back from the painters (4 cyl econobox) :(

Aye, I thought moving from a 1.8L to 2.2L 4 cyl was a waste of money - and subsequently bought a gutless 1.6L to get me from A-to-B after some Danish chick decided to pull out in front of me. 1.6L is the win to save money. My missus drives a 1.3L Laser - that's a bit extreme, very very frustratingly gutless. 1.6L is frustrating but bareably so.

who cares how much fuel and how fast it goes.... DOSE IT SKID?
LINK TO SKIDS

personaly i drive from wynnum to Queensland raceway in my 4banger 2L turbo, drift for 5 hours, smoke up 4 sets of tyres and drive home on one tank of fuel! why do it any other way!




last edited by AvaLon at 22:40:59 15/Apr/09

well my holden epica can go f*** itself

i kinda wish i bought the diesel version 8 months ago. it would have been the worse car purchase ever.. instead of being the second worse

who cares how much fuel and how fast it goes.... DOSE IT SKID?
LINK TO SKIDS

personaly i drive from wynnum to Queensland raceway in my 4banger 2L turbo, drift for 5 hours, smoke up 4 sets of tyres and drive home on one tank of fuel! why do it any other way!

Hey hey, I could do that in an 8 I had. ....just it had a 100L tank :D

A car thread without posts about LPG !!!
WHAT.

man i wish my track day the other week was half as dry as that was avalon

only got a couple of sessions in then it really started pouring, the dipper was a swimming pool

http://s182.photobucket.com/albums/x56/maxe1/trackdino/

last edited by paveway at 08:39:59 16/Apr/09

i still have my HKS SSQ blow off valve from my 180 sitting in the shed, i might put it on the hirux

lol dan.. watching you exit turn 6 was always a good show :P

i nearly exited turn 1 into the wall a couple of times, that was pretty *clench*

turn 1 is always a *clench* moment if your doing it right :P even more so in the wet - you missed my 4 wheel power slide through turn 1 in one of my first few laps. I took it a bit slower after that as i needed to wear the same underwear home :>

i still have my HKS SSQ blow off valve from my 180 sitting in the shed, i might put it on the hirux

Haha, a mate built one to put on his turbo Katana. He used to love riding up next to turbo fours and changing gears and watching their reactions.

What track day was that paveway? I’m surprised they let you out on the track being that wet.

It had stopped raining and they almost call off our day because they didn’t want us to damage the track!

Go the drift teks!

2nd of april timeattack

yeah it started f***ing pouring during my 3rd session and everyone came off except 1 evo and pretty much didn't let up, some people still went out again

people were coming through the dipper and a water wall would rise up like 2m above the height of the car