I haven't been paying a lot of attention to this because you can't go a year or so without a big fire that knocks down a couple houses or whatever in one of the lesser states.

I read on the Internets earlier today though that 65 people had been killed and was blown away; totally didn't appreciate how insane it was. Just watching the news now and the toll is in the 80s (possibly to go above 100) with 700 homes wiped out. The footage is pretty amazing as well, just whole suburbs looking just smashed by the fire.

Just found out a friend of mine's mother has lost her house and was lucky to get out with some of her pets. Crazy.

The feds are kicking together $10 million as an emergency fund for fire relief (seems a little trivial compared to $100 million to stop naked people on the Internet, but whatever).

Fire seems like something we figured out ages ago but this sort of craziness just makes you realise how insane it can get.

Also, apparently some of the fires were lit by arsonists. Holy f*** I hope some people catch those a******s lighting fires.

It's 84 people dead now..

Bigger death toll than ash wednesday..

31yr old in sydney was arrested.

There are fires in sydney aswell, just no where the scale of those in melb

Trog, explain comment about how we figured out fire ages ago..

last edited by Damo at 23:19:15 08/Feb/09

last edited by Damo at 23:20:36 08/Feb/09

Surely the arsonists, if caught, could be charged with manslaughter?

One of the lesser states eh?

that's right, lesser states

now this is a cause I would happily give $950 of my tax money to

they've already said those caught & convicted will be charged with at least manslaughter, if not murder

if i caught someone lighting them, I'd just chuck the guy in his own fire and say 'diaf'
thats about all they deserve, prison would be way too cushy for these guys

apparently they're just finding car after car full of bodies
watching way earlier this morning they were saying the death toll was at like 24 and they expected it to go "as high as 40" so hearing they're now expecting at least 100 dead is pretty insane

+1 Jim - how much was the stimulus part again? like $12bn or something
first thing I thought when they said '$10m relief fund' was why are they putting a cap on how much relief they can give?

There are sure to be more charities joining in soon but if you have a particular preference, the Red Cross and Salvation Army are open to donations.

Australian Red Cross

The Salvation Army



last edited by treeoflife at 23:33:23 08/Feb/09

how do so many people die in a bushfire in this day

surely we have some kind of evacuation procedures in fire prone areas by now

Yeah, they had pretty regular news updates on tv about it here throughout the night, and I remember watching and hearing them say that there was 14 people dead and they were predicting it could be up to 40 people dead, with 100 homes lost, and I was pretty shocked then. But 100 people dead and 700 homes wiped out is just insanity.

A friend of my mother lost her house and all her dogs (she is a show dog breeder and had about 20 dogs). They were evacuating and had packed as much stuff as they could in the car and had all the dogs loaded into a trailer behind the car. The house was already catching on fire and they were about to get in the car to leave when a fireball jumped over to the car and set the car and trailer on fire, so they bailed out and just ran for it. The dogs weren't so lucky :(

surely we have some kind of evacuation procedures in fire prone areas by now

It spread EXTREMELY fast yesterday, because not only did we have fire, we had gale forced winds blowing. A lot of places ended up surrounded by fire and people were cut off and couldn't evacuate.

It was just out of control, the fire brigade were even losing their trucks to it, they'd already lost 3 trucks last night, maybe more since.

last edited by Khel at 23:53:01 08/Feb/09

holy f***ing Christ, I've been through natural disasters, too many cyclones to count but I've never ever seen so much destruction and death. I just can't believe its real.

To think that 55 died in the 7/7 London bombings, this bushfire death toll is pretty insane.

If you've ever been out bush doing back burning on some scrub, you'll have a fraction of an idea about just how quick loud that front would have gone through that place. One guy said it was raining down on him fire with charballs searing through his shirt. He was one of the lucky ones.

Yeah we've just donated for the VIC bush fires and NQ Flood. And when we get the cash from uncle Krudd, we'll give that to them too. f***ing sucks having this sort of stuff happen to you, worst if they were deliberately lit.... f***ing fire bugs scums.

Treeoflife - thanks for the red cross link, can we get a banner happening?

Quarry Road, where one of the fires was, is less than 4km from here. Just a few hundred km down the road from that is where the old 20 mile marker used to be for the Melbourne CBD. There's then been fires in Wandong, Kinglake (which I'm sure you've heard about by now as the town is basically gone), Harkaway, Narre Warren, Beaconsfield, Chum Creek - all of which form a nice kind of border around the east of Melbourne. 10km away you're just getting bigass burnt pieces of debris falling.

Next door work at the local council, but they've been pulled to do work on fire-related sutff. They've said what they're reporting on the news doesn't relect how it actually is, and they've been asking them not to report unconfirmed deaths - but the initial sweeps it's bascially a body in every second car they're finding on the side of the roads. A toll of 180 wouldn't be unheard of once they go back and do the offical counts.

people lighting these fires deserve murder charges

news.com.au link

looks like it's up to 108

The fires got pretty close to my house. In about 10mins the tempreture went up heaps and there was a heap of ash and s*** in the air. We ere very lucky though as the wind changed direction and the fires didn't come any closer to our house.

There are some lucky people near me. One of my friends had to evacuate on friday and were told they'd most likely lose their house on saturday. Luckly for them they managed to protect their property. There's also a house near me, all the land around it is burnt but the house is left intact.

Of course, news are continuing with their brilliantly professional level of journalism:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25025989-2862,00.html

Some kilometres before reaching Healesville, the fire went nuts, razing every house in its path.

it's not really any wonder some of these people died

i was watching the news after the cricket last night, one of the reports one of these people said thta her mum wasn't leaving and that she was going to get in her spa with a towel over her.... and in the same report they said some people broke into the local pub to hide in the cool room

apart from the obvious jokes about drinking in the cold room, did these people seriously expect to survive if the pub caught on fire because they were in the cold room?

it's pretty f***ed up, i feel sorry for people etc but that one bit had me really thinking what the f***...

i guess that area is a property hotspot.

haha

Yeah, it's 30 min up the road from my house. Two mates I play soccer with live in King Lake but haven't been able to get onto them. One of them his family owns the local pub so I hope they are alright. The town is completely gone, razed to the ground.

I find it interesting that noone seemed to have any warning. I mean, surely these days the telcos could just SMS a warning to everyone with a King Lake address or something like that.

better than that I know for a fact they can broadcast sms to every cell within range of specific towers

This sure is a major tragedy. And like Trog said I wasn't giving it too much attention until yesterday morning and then moreso on the news last night. Some of those fires are crazy.

Whole families were cooked in their cars :(

I'm sure there were some silly people who made wrong decisions about getting out there, who thought they could fight it off with their garden hose etc.

Others just simply couldn't escape. Those fires were been fanned by gale force winds that were constantly changing direction, very unpredictable.

These few days will make the history books.

I'm sure there were some silly people who made wrong decisions about getting out there, who thought they could fight it off with their garden hose etc.

I used to live in Research in VIC and go to the CFA meetings and they tell you to decide to stay or leave. Well, looking at King Lake now, I dunno why they would even suggest staying. If you stayed in KL, you'd be well and truly f***ed.

And what is with the dumb f***s who get asked, "So, what do you do know? Lodge an insurance claim and just wait?" only to say, "We didn't have insurance."

Who doesn't have insurance? I would rather not eat lunch for a week to pay for house insurance - it's number one priority if you own a house.

Who doesn't have insurance? I would rather not eat lunch for a week to pay for house insurance - it's number one priority if you own a house.

Agreed.

I think our home and contents is ~$700 year, as if you wouldn't have it. Even if it was several thousand I'd still have it. People who don't have it have basically lost everything, other than bank accounts and other assets that weren't destroyed (maybe they own property elsewhere).

But I suspect if you don't have insurance you probably don't have other assets. Tough gig.

But all that pails in comparison to the loss of life.

Who doesn't have insurance? I would rather not eat lunch for a week to pay for house insurance - it's number one priority if you own a house.

Try telling that to the family who earns $36k/year or some figure that puts the others just above the figure that would allow them to get anything from centrelink.

Why have insurance ?
If you lose everything in a natural disaster the government gives you a handout.
If its isolated you get on the radio and cry. bam appeal gets you everything.

Try telling that to the family who earns $36k/year or some figure that puts the others just above the figure that would allow them to get anything from centrelink.

Is it just me or does this make no sense?

it'd be nice to think for once the qglians could go without the stupid and unnecessary puns just once, this is pretty tragic and they haven't even finished counting the dead yet

Who doesn't have insurance? I would rather not eat lunch for a week to pay for house insurance - it's number one priority if you own a house.

Try telling that to the family who earns $36k/year or some figure that puts the others just above the figure that would allow them to get anything from centrelink.

try telling the family who earns 36k/year that they now owe their mortgage payments for a house that no longer exists

when I was younger my mum worked two jobs in the months leading up to christmas just so she could buy our christmas presents
you can't tell me you cant find $3 per day to protect the most vital asset most people will ever attain

you dont drive around in even a $500 s***box without at least 3rd party because if you write someone elses car off you're still screwed, your car might be worth nothing but if you owe someone $100k for their audi etc ..

Obviously the news is covering this pretty and on Sunrise this morning they had a guy who was looking for his wife and 3 kids and couldn't get in contact with them. Was absolutely devastating to watch the pain and sadness in his face.

Along with the gail force winds, temps were stupidly high which can cause fires to start if a piece of glass is lying on some dry leaves or someone flicks a cigarette butt out the window.

Over the past few weeks wifey and I have been thinking we're struggling as we kick back in our house in Hawthorn or eating out down at the local Laurent - s*** like this really makes you re-asses your situation. Kevvys handouts will be going to the Red Cross and some of our cash reserve is going too - if you have $5 to spare, drop it off if you can.

So do they know it's arson that's the cause or are they just speculating? I assume it would be hard to catch the person unless someone saw them do it.

so qgl tolerates puns when a 4 year old girl gets thrown off a bridge, but not when a town burns down.

so qgl tolerates puns when a 4 year old girl gets thrown off a bridge, but not when a town burns down.

subjective moderation is part and parcel of the Internet experience

I don't really like the puns at all; but if people want to disgrace themselves by making light of incredible tragedy, that's their business - at some point though you're going to offend someone and they'll take it seriously

Why have insurance ?
If you lose everything in a natural disaster the government gives you a handout.
If its isolated you get on the radio and cry. bam appeal gets you everything.

lol @ your f***ing no-idea-of-how-things-work

So far the gov't handout is $1000 per adult, $400 per child.

Good luck buying a house with that.

I can't say I was a huge fan of the 4 year old girl puns either, my mrs was pretty f***ing shocked to say the least too

So do they know it's arson that's the cause or are they just speculating? I assume it would be hard to catch the person unless someone saw them do it.

They are quite certain the Churchill fire was arson and have put up a $100k reward.

Although, this is on the back of news last month that the VIC police have not paid any of the $3mil or something rewards owed...so not sure what kind of incentive that will be.

But yeah, Chief Commissioner Christine Nixon has said that Churchill fire is arson - she wouldn't say that on air unless they were pretty darn sure.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/daring-tractor-dash/2009/02/08/1234027855655.html

Hard listening..

last edited by Damo at 10:53:33 09/Feb/09

lol @ your f***ing no-idea-of-how-things-work

lol @ not being able to detect sarcasm on the internets

Well semi sarcasm, I honestly think it is how some tards think.

I got onto mate that has pub in King Lake, he is alright and his house and pub standing.

Other mate absolutely f***ed. He's alive but lost uncle, little sister, little brother, house and his grandparents critical in hospital. f***ing terrible.

That's awful Pinky :( I can't even begin to imagine how hard it must be for all those families. My brother's in victoria, glad he's safe but I'm sure there'll be people he knows who have been affected by the fires

One of the guys I from the cycling club decided he'd still do his regular ride up the Kinglake on Friday night. Excuse the lack of line breaks - I'm surprised he even tapped out a story at all:

At the end of last week Manny and I decided that she would drive up
to her parents farm at Kinglake on Friday night so that we could
spend the day swimming in her brother John's small lake. I knew I
had a long day on Friday so I said I would ride up there on Sat.
morning. She thought I was silly riding in the heat but I knew if I
made an early start it would be OK and besides I seriously needed to
get some hills into my legs to prepare for B2B (having a climbing
ability just marginally better than GRS... maybe).
So I made an early start and although it was warm there was no wind.
About 10kms out of Whittlesea I was starting to flag but a couple
went past and I gratefully jumped on for a ride. Another 5kms and
the north wind hit us so suddenly we went form above 30 to under 20
km/hr. No big deal as we were in the outskirts of W/sea and were
able to limp in there for a cool drink. I got going pretty quickly
and from there to the Humevale turnoff was pretty ordinary, just
spinning in a low gear at about 15k. Once I'd made the turnoff the
wind direction was better and as soon as I was into the climb it was
sheltered and much cooler. I took it easy admiring a particularly
lovely little homestead and noticing how well they looked prepared
for fire. I made it to the top and kept going for another well
needed drink break at the milk bar at Kinglake West. I stood in the
air conditioned shop and just cooled down as by then it was
seriously hot, but I only had an undulating 13k to go and was
feeling OK.
Ride completed and delicious pasta lunch consumed it was time to go
to my brother in laws for a swim. Jumped in the car with Manny's
other brother Eddy, Manny and little Jim my 6yo. Got to the dam and
swam in the deliciously cool waters with John and Yvette his
pregnant partner. All the time we had the radio on listening to the
fire news. Two years ago John's farm was threatened by fire and as
it is un protected to the north we are always vigilant. We were
never worried about Manny's mum an dad's farm as it sits on the brow
of a hill with a southerly aspect (you can see Melbourne through the
trees) and although the bush below their house was tinder dry
following years of low rainfall we always considered it defendable
as we would never have to deal with fire driven by a strong wind.
All afternoon there was an enormous plume of smoke overhead form the
Wandong fires approx 40 kms away and eventually we thought we better
get back to the farm just in case. We got back to the farm and
started making preparations; large tubs filled with water, buckets,
three separate petrol pumps, trailer with a 3000 litre tank with
it's own pump so we could drive to any spotties, protective clothing
ready, downpipes blocked etc. Teresa wanted us to take Jimmy off the
mountain but we were a bit nervous about the roads and also wanted
to do our bit to help. We did everything but were pretty relaxed, we
knew we had had a dry run 2 years ago and knew we would have plenty
of warning both from the radio and from the CFA. It was really hot
and the north wind was whistling, I was thankful I still had my
bathers on as the dampness was keeping me cool. Eddy popped up the
road to get another extra pump off a mate and came rushing back he
could see fire in the valley below the house. We could hear a roar
over the sound of the wind and got scared. Then the wind changed,
the impossible had happened we now had a strong southerly with fire
below.. we were in for it... We needed to get Jim away, Manny was
going to drive but I wanted to make sure they got away safely so I
drove them to the Kinglake CFA... Within miutes it had become pitch
black and embers were in the air, cars were streaming into town and
it was on the verge of panic. The CFA were desperately making
preparations to defend the town and their shed rapidly filling up
with people and dogs including our Minka. I got in the car and
headed back to the farm less than 5 mins out. I was the only one
heading out against a line of cars coming in and as soon as I turned
onto Parkside drive I found all the paddocks on fire. I drove
through the fire and parked in the large drive. When I got out the
noise was overwhelming and the air was like an oven. My first
thought was to get protective clothing on and to make sure Teresa
did as well. While I was away the fire and roared up the hill driven
by the 40km wind. When it first hit the force of the air knocked
Eddy and his dad backwards 10m who were gamely standing hoses in
hand. So Teresa and I got dressed and headed outside into what I can
only describe as a fire storm. The air itself seemed on fire, Eddy
found us and said we had to make it to the cellar for protection.
Between us we half carried Teresa and got inside. Vince was there
already still in his shorts and thongs. The turn around from when I
got in the car to now was less than 10 mins and we had had no
warning.. Anyway things weren't looking too good we were huddled in
the cellar the shed about 30m away had exploded and was fuelling the
inferno, flames reached 30m above the height of the trees that were
surrounding the shed. We could hear the house catching on fire above
us and we could barely breathe with the smoke. Whenever we tried to
open the door there was a wall of flame and sparks and embers would
rain inside. We gathered our thoughts, we knew we had to get out so
wet the one large blanket we had and one towel. We knew we had to
get through the wind break beside the house but reasoned it would
have burnt already, if we could get out into the paddock behind the
house heading north we should be Ok. So that is what we did, four of
us huddled together made it out onto the paddock where all of the
possible fuel had been consumed. I looked over my shoulder to see
the house engulfed in flame. We had timed our run about perfectly,
if we had gone too soon we would not have got through the wind break
as it would have still been burning and the fire below would have
been too intense, too late and the house would have been on fire and
the smoke would have got us.
We made our way up the hill and felt relatively safe but still had
trouble breathing, all of the forest was on fire and every few
seconds there would be a loud explosion as either cars, gas pipes,
gas bottles or trees would go up. We lay down flat on the road and
gathered our thoughts. Everything was gone.. Vince and Teresa were
economic refugees from Italy who arrived in Australia with their
infant daughter (Manny) in 1962. Italy was still teetering from the
ravages of the War and even though the north was better off they had
made the tough decision to emigrate. So they had started off with
next to nothing. Vince was a farmer/truck driver and Teresa who had
been forced to leave school at 11 to help her family was a
seamstress. Together they had worked and worked to raise their three
children, send them all off to University in an atmosphere where the
only indulgence was food... homegrown, gourmet quality food. So when
they looked to retire (precipitated by a work accident that left
Vince with a crushed ankle) they looked no further than the verdant
hills of Kinglake with its plentifull rain and chocolate soils just
waiting to have something planted. For 12 years they had transformed
a bush block with some pasture land into a farm. First a hobby farm
growing vegetables then over time a fully fledged farm with
thousands of proteas each individually planted into rows with their
own individual drip watering each hand plumbed. In the interim Eddy
had begun working there full time and rows had been cultivated at
John's farm not far away. Forest Edge Flowers was a fledgling
business but starting to make good returns after years of hard graft.

So they were devastated, they had on the clothes they were wearing
and that was it, no photo albums, money, reading glasses, anything
and we were still having trouble breathing. Eddy and I scouted a
small dam nearby and we all made our way there, to lie half
submerged in the puddle at the bottom. The depression afforded us
some protection and we could breathe better. After a while the storm
seemed to have passed and we made our way back down the dirt road to
what was left of the farm... nothing really. The shed had exploded,
the house was still on fire all walls collapsed. My car gone as was
vince and Teresa's forrester. Miraculously Eddy's Landcruiser was
sitting in the middle of the drive it's rear left panel melted. the
tank on the trailer had melted and maybe saoked any fire. anyway we
got in, melted dash and all started her up and drove off. My bike
was gone, not just gone but vaporised. It had been standing on the
garage wall, not even a sign of it..bye bye red Villier.
We drove up to the road hoping to get through to Kinglake but trees
had fallen across the road. Cars had hit the tree in the dark, some
had careened off into the culvert, another hilux was in flames...
devasatastion...We found a group of people by the destroyed church
on the top of the hill and de-briefed, swapped stories and attended
to a guy with burnt feet. We were a bit upbeat realising how lucky
we were to have survived. We started to figure we could head in the
other direction so decided to go to John's as we knew he would be in
trouble. Again somewhat riskily we headed towards the fire along
roads strewn with carnage, fallen power lines and trees. we manged
to get to John's road but had to drive through fire to make the
turnoff. we barrelled down his road to find him and Yvette fighting
the fire on two fronts as ti was near his house and his shed with
valuable hay 100m up the hill. Somehow John had managed to save both
but he was pretty relieved when we turned up. Eddy and I attended to
spotties near the shed while the rest managed the house. After what
we had been through it seemed routine, a couple of times the wind
picked up and we came under ember attack again but mostly we went on
the offensive by putting out fires beside the road. Later we managed
to get to the house put up camp stuff and have a sleep, I did
anyway..
Now I'm home, I brought V and T home, we had to drive in a convoy as
the road is still risky.. cannot even begin to describe the
devastation...
We are all alive and for the moment that is enough. Manny, Jim and
Minka spent the night in the CFA shed and then took the first bus
out early Sunday morning. the helpers, firies, police etc were all
outstanding... Aussies can be pretty terrific when we need to be..
I'm not sure what my motivation in writing this is... I think the
idea of people reading this who I don't know is appealing. To my
friends amongst you, not sure how long it will be before I'm back
out on the (a?) bike other things may take a priority for a while.
Bye for now Andy H

We can blame the arsonists for starting the fire - but who do you blame for letting the fire go on? If they designed the area in such a way that fire can move between properties - then I think they should be looking at themselves.

You understand that grass burns, and embers get carried by wind, right thermite?

retarded post of the thread so far goes to thermite

blame mother nature thermite, you idiot

I think it's a little early to be giving awards for that. We're not even at two whole pages, there's sure to be plenty more retardedness to come.

Bit harsh, I don't think Thermite gets just how windy it was, and probably has never seen a bushfire up close. I haven't seen one in Brisbane since about 84/85 and they were never as dangerous as the Victorian or South Australian ones are.

Thermite, It's not like a bbq where the flames mostly go up and not much except smoke rises. There is a lot of embers, sparks, burning branches/weeds that look like tumbleweed crossed with a molotov....

Burning matter and sparks go flying long distances when the wind is push 60-80km/h.

ie. These fires can move faster then a car. And can jump hundreds and hundreds or meters.

The only safety measure accusation I think could possibly be bandied around is the complete lack of fireproof shelters in these areas. Underground bunkers like storm shelters where people can avoid the fire. They have fires so frequently you'd think they exist ? ... or are they somehow unfeasible ?


It's also worth mentioning that the weather khel loves so much is the reason these fires happen. (cue typo reply about how wonderful khel is)

from some of the shots i saw it was basically like a flame thrower moving across the ground, the flames were practically horizontal.

Once these fires get started, there's no stopping them. It awful to see, but that being the case, there's only one thing worse - censorship.

On Friday i remember hearing on the radio that they knew it was going to be a bad weekend and thus were preparing. It's just amazing how little there is that can be done even when you know it's coming.

they should have designed the bush better apparenly

The only safety measure accusation I think could possibly be bandied around is the complete lack of fireproof shelters in these areas. Underground bunkers like storm shelters where people can avoid the fire. They have fires so frequently you'd think they exist ? ... or are they somehow unfeasible ?

I agree with this.

If I lived in the bush like that I would be worried about bush fires. Whether or not a bunker is feasible I don't know, but 100+ people are now dead so I think you could argue they would be, no matter the cost.

But with a sparse population etc, where do you put them?

I think I'd have something on my property though where you can take shelter.

But with a sparse population etc, where do you put them?

Homeowners responsibility ?
Plus at any public buildings (council chambers/schools/hospitals/post offices) ?

It's just amazing how little there is that can be done even when you know it's coming.

It's amazing how horrific those conditions were out there. Ember attacks were happening dozens of kilometers away from the fire lines. In one case there was a burning branch that was caught in a vortex of fire that flew about 5km down the road. Basically, the fires could change direction on the spot, and fire embers could start new fires anywhere. You simply can't defend against that.

It's also worth mentioning that the weather khel loves so much is the reason these fires happen.

That's our Obes for you. Even when there's a tragedy happening, he can always stick the boot in, even if it is a tasteless and ignorant example of how sad and bitter he is. Queue some lines from Obes that are older than time ... yes, yes glow-bowling; very funny.

The only safety measure accusation I think could possibly be bandied around is the complete lack of fireproof shelters in these areas. Underground bunkers like storm shelters where people can avoid the fire. They have fires so frequently you'd think they exist ? ... or are they somehow unfeasible ?

Some friends of my friend lived in Humevale on top of a very steep hill, dirt road - no way to escape the fire. They built a fire-proof bunker. Yesterday the family of three was found dead in their house. The door to the fire-proof bunker was open, but they didn't go in it for some reason.

I think the reality is that it's very difficult to understand what actually happens in these situations.

arsonists causing death should be strung out in the sun until they die

Would an underground bunker have to have its own air supply? I would have thought a big fire above would just suck out all the oxygen.. I seem to recall reading something about lots of people dying near fires actually dying from asphyxiation

actually googling says its the most common cause of death!

Some decent pics can be found here:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/photogallery/2009/02/08/1234027830488.html

The bunker would need it's own air supply, also a PC with broadband access to keep you entertained.

I guess some pressurised cylinders would do, just need to wear a mask and hope the cylinders don't explode.

I'm not saying they could control the bushfires better. But the areas where people died and houses burned down were area designed for human beings to live in. These areas should be made difficult to set on fire. Is that unreasonable?

They may have been difficult but those was/is no ordinary fire.

This has been labelled as the worst fire in modern history (in Australia) so it is beyond anything that could have been prepared for and expected.

But typo you have to admit khel's weather is a significant cause ?

Would an underground bunker have to have its own air supply?

Not sure. I believe the fire goes through very quickly. From the CFA meetings I went to they said that in normal conditions a fire will travel 20km/hr - but I guess if the conditions are right they can move a lot faster than that.

They also told us not get into water tanks or swimming pools, because the water can boil from the fire front - but I have heard on the news of a lot of people climbing into their water tanks and they survived.

Looking at the photos on our local newspaper, the Diamond Valley Leader, it's pretty amazing.

This one in particular. You can see it razed the house and general area, but behind it there's some nice green grass where you could probably have just stood and watched.

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4541/1fb6cc10579be85bfd28beaor0.jpg

They also told us not get into water tanks or swimming pools, because the water can boil from the fire front

Could you imagine boiling to death? :( Especially from water starting off cold and then getting hotter and hotter and hotter....

Dieing from Fire/Heat would have to one of the worst ways to go.

Being incinerated alive in a car would have to be one of the worst ways to die.

Terrible.

I seem to recall reading something about lots of people dying near fires actually dying from asphyxiation

I can kinda guarantee that if you're trapped in a fire, you'll want to go via asphyxiation rather than the other potential options.

As for water tanks, it depends on the size of the water tank and what's around to fuel a fire.
The tank we have out the back is 1,000 liters, that thing would boil pretty quickly, but if you had a 10,000l tank you might be okay for a while.

Also, boiling water is like the whole frog thing - if the water boils slowly while you're in it, you're less likely to notice until it's too late. Jump in an already boiling tank of water and you'll notice it (well, and die) pretty quickly.

they say if the water gets hot enough over a long enough period of time you don't even notice, but i still can't imagine it being much fun
personally if it was getting to that stage i'd try my best to destroy the tank and send water spilling in every direction to disperse the flames as best as possible

actually I wouldn't get in a water tank anyway, maybe a dam or a lake - but not a small confined space which is essentially going to turn into a kettle when applied to heat

I'm down in Traralgon and they were terrible on Sat/Sun. Two of my mates lost their homes in Traralgon South and Calignee, and a guy I've known since High School was killed, trapped in a shed. They couldn't make it back to the house, which had a FIRE CELLAR.

It's crazy as, at 4pm Sat arvo the high beams were on my car and couldn't see three feet infront of me. Drove 3km out of town and could see the huge flames no dramas, heading right for the power station, Loy Yang.

It's sad times down here that's for sure

I believe the fire goes through very quickly

In the army as part of the fire fighting training we actually got told that if you got stuck in front of a grass fire run as fast as you can straight through it with out breathing *shrug*

In the army as part of the fire fighting training we actually got told that if you got stuck in front of a grass fire run as fast as you can straight through it with out breathing *shrug*

Maybe that was a special instruction, just for you Obes... :-P

Or just for the grunts. To fuel the fire while the officers escape, hehe.

there was a family on sunrise this morning that hid in their cellar/bunker during the fire and survived;

they said the roof was glowing red hot

I hope the Big Picture do a photo thing on this

^ asin boston.com photos?

I've been doing a lot of reading about fires the last couple of days, and firestorms are f***ing frightening. The size and intensity of the fire creates and sustains it's own wind system, forcing itself along at up to 100km/h (or more!), regardless of the surrounding weather conditions. The ash clouds from firestorms can even create lightning, which can subsequently start more fires.

The Wikipedia article on Firestorms is quite interesting.

The ash clouds from firestorms can even create lightning, which can subsequently start more fires.

Which was exactly what was happening out our way. That's how the Chum Creek fire started, from memory.

Does anyone have Fuzzy's details? I vaguely remember him moving down to country Victoria a few years back.

he's all good, got a bit of a smokeout but luckily it shifted away from the new place he's building

Just heard back from my sister in law and her husband and they're ok. Got a bit worried cause she didn't reply for ages....

burninated

more pics

http://www.news.com.au/gallery/0,23607,5037339-5006020-2,00.html

last edited by tequila at 16:25:09 09/Feb/09

NYT has an article up:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/09/world/asia/09australia.html

Also in der Spiegel: Speigel Online artikel

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/Bushfire-Appeal-Cruise-t256158.html

something just doesn't seem right about organising a car cruise for a bushfire appeal
why not just donate the $cash and the $petrol you would have wasted driving around

unless of course they're going to collect toys/food/clothes and you're transporting them to the needy

Same reason you have Car Wash Fundraisers or sausage sizzles...

Why not directly donate that money instead of wasting time/energy/water?

cause it doesn't cost more to put the event on than it would raise, i guess that would be my first point ..

Yeah, because saying "Hey everyone meet here" on a forum is f***ING expensive...

what was the last cruise you went on?
every one I've ever done (mind you, these are 99% modified turbo vehicles - as was mine), I've had to fill up my tank before leaving
I'd waste $50 in one day just on fuel alone

i'm all for whatever gets more donations, even if its a cruise - just doesn't seem terribly SMRT

tequila has spoken

hold out your cup and get your fill

Set up donations: 5 people donate, get $40-ish.

Set up a cruise with donations on side: 30 people donate, get $100+

If you set up events people will be interested in, the profit gained from the added numbers would be larger than the profit from not hosting the event..

:)

The approach to Marysville:

Before:
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3192/img2802eo1.jpg

After:
http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,6476669,00.jpg

i'd be in for some sort of cruz

Toolangi and Beechworth have been upgraded to Urgent Threats, but Redesdale and Churchill have been downgraded to Alert. Kilmore, Yae and Koetong are also at Alert.

My mate's family is frontpage on news.com.au

His brother Macky (15yo) is the second from the left in pink shirt, sister Neeve (9yo) is four from the left. Uncle (37yo) is first from the left.

Poor bastard. Haven't called him, wouldn't know what to say. I called his best mate and spoke with him, told him to pass on all the boys condolences. Will organise flowers and some sort of large card signed from the senior men teams at the soccer club. What can you do for someone like that though, seriously.

wow, skyline drivers are the biggest tools on the planet

I am down for a cruise

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/09/world/asia/09australia.html?_r=1


bigpicture have an update on it


edit; f*** me

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x56/maxe1/a23_17907277.jpg

last edited by maxe at 08:33:04 10/Feb/09

We shut all the mental health hospitals and cut back on services, and now we take our mentally ill and bang them away in council flats with other nutters and send a counseller around once a week. We make all this noise about mental health services and people are always into 'spreading awareness' but no one is really willing to do the hard yards and properly invest in spending in this area. A guy throws his kid off the Westgate bridge, and what do we blame? The bridge needed giant safety barriers of course! Then this never would have happened! There's no way the man could have snapped and simply thrown the kid into the path of an oncoming semi trailer, we need to spend 250 million on safety barries because the bridge is dangerous!

For a state that makes a hell of a lot noise about youth suicide and other serious public mental health problems, we really do sweet gently caress all to address the underlying causes. Wouldn't it be nice if we had a means of detecting and reaching out to messed up people BEFORE they hurt others? If we dealt with our firebugs, peadophiles, axe murderers et all prior to them acting out? A serious increase in spending in mental health services perhaps?

No. We need giant pylons on the Westgate

Great point Doob. Completely agree!

On melted mag wheels (info from Ash Wednesday Fires but these were much the same):

"CSIRO experts later reported that, from evidence of melted metal, the heat of the fires after the change rose to 2000°C; exceeding that recorded during the Allied bombing of Dresden in World War II. In fact, the Ash Wednesday fires were measured at around 60,000 kilowatts of heat energy per metre, leading to similarities with the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima."

whilst I agree, what has that got to do with this thread?

unless of course you're saying the people who started the fires need mental help, with that I would also agree
doesn't mean we can't dream of burning them in their own fires for a little bit

we better lock doob up before he makes more sense

While what doob says does make some sense, public like to see actual things being done, like baricades built etc. Then they think the Government is doing something about it.

If the government just said "We'll now spend 20 Gajillion on mental health in repsonse to the bridge tragedy" there is no tangible action and is easily perceived by the public as taking no action.

This fire s*** just gets worse.

what they've done is bought votes, pure and simple

That's what politician's are for, right?

s*** i lost half of my post

in regards to arsonists and the people saying that better preventative measures should have been taken to stem the loss of life and etc

what they've done is bought votes, pure and simple

That's why our system sucks. The left and right vote for who they vote for no matter what. So the parliment caters for a center segment of people who are either educated centerists that neither major party fits (eg. the green vote) or the great unwashed (baby bonuses). And our stupid ass media particularly in Brisbane where all we have is a pathetic tabloid is more interested in stunts and 1 liners then anything real.

But I am not sure what d00b's point and hence this path in the discussion has to do with bush fires ?

But I am not sure what d00b's point and hence this path in the discussion has to do with bush fires ?

I think;

unless of course you're saying the people who started the fires need mental help, with that I would also agree

amirite?

yes when you light a fire you shouldn't just get a slap on the wrist and then be free to go about your day, the arsonists they have caught and are also hunting are all re-offenders - how do you think they investigate arson? one of the biggest parts is going well lets see what known fire bugs we have in the area and then go have a little chat about their whereabouts at the time the fire started.

http://img.waffleimages.com/262cfa58e7a0861257f0b268239f29c492336d80/0,,6477888,00.jpg

last edited by d[o_0]b at 09:50:58 10/Feb/09

has anyone noticed the sheer amount of falcons burnt by this fire
i mean, look at maxe's pic, i can count 5 falcons(/fairlanes) just there

thats because falcons are s***, obviously

For a state that makes a hell of a lot noise about youth suicide and other serious public mental health problems, we really do sweet gently caress all to address the underlying causes.

Wifey is a Psychologist and says that mental health services in Victoria are far better and advanced than QLD - she does drug & alcohol counseling, court ordered diversions and other scary crap.

"Hotter than Dresden" basically says it all. Isn't it said that Dresden was so hot, peoples skin was basically melting off?

Married to a Psychologist?

You're a brave man.

Just shows how crap the paint is on Ford's.

There's plenty of d*******s going on about arsonists on Whirlpool who clearly don't have a clue, but people seem to forget - most people claim it was arsonists, but a lot of time in reality it's 13 year old kids who are bored and really don't recognize what could potentially go wrong - or how bad it could actually get.

And seriously, what good does some of the barbaric punishments some people are suggesting really do anyway? Punishment needs to be deterrent, not retribution. And if it does turn out to be kids, who likely honestly didn't realize how it could turn this bad, what can you do? In that situation, do you honestly think that when they realize their actions may have killed 100+ people that won't be punishment enough?

Sigh.

Of course, yeah, there's some chance it was lit by an adult. Or, more likely, some d******* bogans who went "pft, total fire ban. f***it, lets have a barbecque anyway".

What the f*** is with the people staying behind to defend the home? there was a story on some guy who dropped his kids to the grandparents and him and his wife went back to defend the house and he died.

Why? I dont understand, why try and defend the house?, do these people not have insurance or something?

Also all the people being upset that they have lost everything? do they also not have insurance?, yes I know you cant replace photos and stuff like that but they are just possesions, grab the realy sentimental stuff early and f*** off.

IF you dont have insurance and you lose you house thats your fault, no sympathy from me, if you dont have insurance and decide to defend the house, that just makes you a double idiot.

the bushfire policy is leave early or stay to defend your home because its believed people will be safer at home than getting caught in their cars. The fire just moved to fast. People got caught unprepared

More pics:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/02/bushfires_in_victoria_australi.html

hey doob that post suspiciously looks like it has gone through the word filter on SA (ps the words "gently caress" ;)

yea i find myself saying 'loving' irl as well f***ing SA

What the f*** is with the people staying behind to defend the home? there was a story on some guy who dropped his kids to the grandparents and him and his wife went back to defend the house and he died.

That's my friend's family - I play soccer with the 18yo son.

Ross is the father and town pump man. He dropped off his two other kids Macky and Neeve at his grandmother's house with (along with his uncle) because he thought they'd be safer there while he defended his home (which he managed successfully). Unfortunately he returned to the other house to find that the uncle, two kids and two other girls who were also sheltering there had died.

It's a tragedy of unimaginable proportion which has devastated our entire group.

This would be a win in so many ways:
"Scrap the internet filter, give the cash to bushfire survivors"

When told to evacuate, do it!

It's a tragedy about the people getting caught in cars though.

At the end of the day a house won't give a s*** if you are alive. So why give a s*** about it?

Punishment needs to be deterrent, not retribution

Well, I would imagine bloody, violent retribution would act as a pretty good deterrent to anyone else considering doing the same.

IF you dont have insurance and you lose you house thats your fault

no. it isn't.

This would be a win in so many ways:
"Scrap the internet filter, give the cash to bushfire survivors"

Hey, was I the first person to suggest this? If so, I'd like some sort of acknowledgment from "the Internet"

no. it isn't.

Explain how it isnt your fault if you lose your house becuase you dont have insuranace? You either didnt have insurance because you chose not to for whatever stupid reason (your fault), or you cant afford it, in which case you shouldbt have a house. I believe if you have a mortgage they pretty much require you to have house insurance?

I think he means its not your fault that you lost your house, which is true
it is your fault that you didn't have insurance though

you're both arguing different parts of the same point

ROUND 1 - FIGHT

last edited by dRanged at 13:46:48 10/Feb/09

Is someone making waffles? I can smell waffles...

I believe if you have a mortgage they pretty much require you to have house insurance?

If you borrow more than 80% you are required to have mortgage insurance. That's a lot different than house/contents insurance though.

Yeah I know about mortgate insurance (I have payed it in the past) but I thought the bank required you to have house insurance when you have a mortgage. Considering they pretty much own the house and if it burns do all they have is the land if you cant pay the loan back.

i keep reading the topic as Victoria Fries

either way i guess

Yeah I know about mortgate insurance (I have payed it in the past) but I thought the bank required you to have house insurance when you have a mortgage. Considering they pretty much own the house and if it burns do all they have is the land if you cant pay the loan back.

Yeah, the mortgage insurer shares the risk that the borrower will default on payments to the lender. That covers the bank's loss, that's all they care about.

In the event that you paid off 50% of your mortgage and you don't have mortgage insurance because you chose not to and you don't have house insurance because you chose not to - you are well and truly stuffed.

House insurance will allow you to rebuild your house. Mortgage insurance only covers any payment you owe to the lender.

here is my explanation... unless you started the fire that burnt your house down, the fact that your house burnt down isn't your fault. if you didn't have insurance then you will have to foot the bill of a new house yourself but the fact it burnt down isn't your fault.

Moral of the story, Have house insurance, Leave before the fire gets anywhere near your house.

here is my explanation... unless you started the fire that burnt your house down, the fact that your house burnt down isn't your fault. if you didn't have insurance then you will have to foot the bill of a new house yourself but the fact it burnt down isn't your fault.

Of course, but if you cant rebuild becuase you dont have insurance thats your fault, thats what I meant by lose your house, you dont realy lose it if you have insurance, you get a new one.

Moral of the story, Have house insurance, Leave before the fire gets anywhere near your house.

^ Pretty well ^

However alot of people that died were leaving but it all just happened so fast that they were caught out.

There was a fanily on the news last night that has survived in a bunker that he had built next to the concrete water tank. He said his wife nagging him to built it and he didn't think it was necessary. He did built it and it saved their lives (daughter as well).

Of course, but if you cant rebuild becuase you dont have insurance thats your fault

no. it isn't. there is no fault in this situation. house insurance isn't compulsory.

oh dear

he's not saying its compulsory, he's just saying that if you end up in a position where you are out on your ass simply because you CHOSE to not have your home insured and something then happens to your home.. it is your fault
and I agree with him

house insurance shouldn't be optional if you have any credit tied up in the house
unless you can afford to lose it and not bat an eye lid, its not worth the risk of keeping it uninsured

However alot of people that died were leaving but it all just happened so fast that they were caught out.

Yeah thats pretty unlucky and no doubt alot of people though they had plenty of time. Its just that in alot of the storys on the radio and tv, the people had made a pre-determined decision to stay and defend the house, WTF? why?

he's not saying its compulsory, he's just saying that if you end up in a position where you are out on your ass simply because you CHOSE to not have your home insured and something then happens to your home.. it is your fault

no. it isn't.

Wow. Just wow. This makes me want to start a few fires of my own. Starting with right under a pew. With these guys chained to them.

http://is.gd/iZcf

er demon, s*** happens in life, its no one elses responsibility to make sure you are prepared for s*** to happen, other than your own (or your families)

no insurance? no new money for house;

responsibility isn't the same thing as fault.

you can't just say "no. it isn't." and expect that s*** to fly

how is it not their fault that they didn't have insurance?
how is it not their fault that they can't rebuild their house?
how is it not their fault that they didn't take the necessary precautions and plan for 'the world possible outcome'

plan for the worst, hope for the best.

answers; demon has none.

yeh. i can.

so, who should pay for said houses that have burned down?

why should people bother with insurance?

so, who should pay for said houses that have burned down?

it's the individual householder's responsibility for thier reconstruction expenses... whether they are insured or not.

why should people bother with insurance?

for thier own reasons which would be many & varied.

im confuzzled

It's not their fault it burnt down. It is there fault if they are left homeless with no items as a result of not having insurance.

Yeah you gotta wonder about the people that stayed to fight, however they may not have made that decision if they knew just how bad it was. You have to remember that this is the worst fire Australia has seen, they had no idea about that when they made the decision to stay.

If they were somehow told 'The worst fire in Australia's history that's moving at 100km/h with a fire front 10 meters tall is just over the next hill' - they probably would have left.

for thier own reasons which would be many & varied.

pretty sure the only reason I have home & contents insurance is just incase something happens to my home or its contents.
it has nothing to do with how many times I've boned paveways mum

some people don't understand risk or let emotion overrun rationale

pretty sure the only reason I have home & contents insurance is just incase something happens to my home or its contents.
it has nothing to do with how many times I've boned paveways mum

yes. those are your reasons. other peoples reasons may vary.

last edited by demon at 15:11:33 10/Feb/09

Any examples of other reasons? I'm curious.

haha I saw the extra 's' in your post before you edited it out demon, therefore your point is invalid. now go to your room

Indirectly, by their omission, they are at fault for not being able to replace their house.

But the direct cause of the situation was the fire which was not lit by them.

the direct cause of the situation was the fire which was not lit by them

the direct cause of the situation was the fire which was not lit by them

the direct cause of the situation was the fire which was not lit by them

the direct cause of the situation was the fire which was not lit by them

got it yet?


f***ing hell you c***s are useless

hang on, what?

i don't know why people are getting into an argument over semantics when these people have just had their entire lives reduced to ashes. show a little compassion.

that being the case i am not donating anything because they should have had insurance.

the direct cause of the situation was the fire which was not lit by them

is that like all the people in ingham didnt flood their own houses also?

oh god I'm still trying to get maxe's post JUST HANG ON A MINUTE

Jeebus people, of course it isnt there fault the house burnt down, it is there fault that they are now getting interviewed on channel 9 and crying that they have lost everything.

If this happened to my house and they interviewed me I'd be like, yeah house is gone, we grabbed what we could, lost some stuff that cant be replaced but s*** happens, i've got insurance so we will be fine.

Unless someone died, they have no reason to be on there knees crying at lost possesions.

because im sure thats all they are crying about...

Insurrance is vaguely like gambling. There is a risk, you can choose to spend money (wager) and prevent a loss (reward) that might or might happen (chance).

Everyone in country Victoria has to know the very high risks, if they don't they must live in a cave. In fact I find it hard to believe that anyone involved didn't have insurrance ?

People with no insurance (if they exist) gambled everything on the house not being totalled. They chose to save money and take the risk.

People with insurance gambled a little each year that there might be a fire. But if it happened they'd get their houe and stuff back.

Given that insurrance happens before the fire/flood/plane/asteroid/army ordenace totals your places, and will prevent the capital loss. It is the uninsureds action (or inaction) that caused the loss... ie. it (the choice to not insure) happened first.

I find inappropriate that anyone would expect anyone other then their insurrance company rebuilds their private property or replace their belongings. That said if it's on offer who wouldn't take it.

I don't have any issue with donations, so long as they are being aimed at the immediate problems (that no insurrance covers ... they are slow to act in my experience) or community things like the libraries that won't have any books, or the parks that no longer exist. Or supporting those that lost family (there is no insurrance for personal loss like that).

i don't know why people are getting into an argument over semantics

No point arguing with the flames...

But seriously if even one person gets it through their head that they are resposible for protecting their own stuff ... it's a win.

I'd feel sorry for you if you lost your home in a fire, really I would feel bad for you
but if you then complain that you can't afford another house AND you also have to keep paying off your mortgage on what is now essentially burnt land, purely because you chose not to insure yourself .. I can't feel bad for that

that is your fault and you can't cry to anyone to fix that problem for you, govt. included
s*** does happen, it happens to everyone - not just you
if you get a free house and your mortgage paid off when you didn't have insurance

are they going to give me a free car and pay off my old car that I didn't have insurance on if i write it off in an accident?

no. the answer is no.

I feel sorry for them regardless cos it's a c*** of a situation to be in no matter whose fault it is. And whether they are justified in asking for help or not, I can't blame them for asking. If you're in that situation and there's even the slightest chance you can get assistance as if you'd go "no I will forgo any chance of assistance - I and my family should suck it up because I didn't get insurance"

if someone doesn't have house insurance but thier house doesn't burn down are they still at fault?

yes, they are at fault for having needlessly wasted money on insurance! :D

;D

There is only "fault" if there is a problem.

If this happened to my house and they interviewed me I'd be like, yeah house is gone, we grabbed what we could, lost some stuff that cant be replaced but s*** happens, i've got insurance so we will be fine.

You say that now, until it happens you will have no idea how you will react.

oh so what's next obes? minimal can mean zero?!

If you can't get that people pour their hearts and souls into their homes and that feel gutted when it's all gone then you are a clueless f***ing d*******. A home isn't just a throw away item that can be replaced at the snap of your fingers even if it is insured.

There are things that people have lost that are of no cash value what so ever that they will never be able to replace. Even when a new home does get biult it's not the same home they busted their asses over for years sure it's a brand new roof over your head but people form bonds with the the most important things in their lives. You'd think in this country almost everyone would understand that given that aparently the great aussie dream is to own your own home.

oh so what's next obes? minimal can mean zero?!

Depends on the variable.

Take temperature measured in 'C for example, can be positive or negative, so therefore minimal is clearly greatest possible negative number in that case.

But anyway, another lame attempt at trolling.

yes clearly

the funniest thing about this is you won't even know how dumb you are unless someone who wasn't in nappies 10 years ago explains this for you

You say that now, until it happens you will have no idea how you will react.

Of course, it would be emotional, but I can gurantee you I wouldnt be on my knees crying that I've lost everything, it just wouldnt happen, if I had family that died then yeah I probably would lose it like that.

I just dont think that people should be crying about loosing possesions when people have died.

I think you should go around telling them all personally, viper
set things right in your universe and stuff

I think you should go around telling them all personally, viper
set things right in your universe and stuff

Huh yeah maybe I should, It would be more of a job for Mr T though, like in those snikers ad's.

"stop crying fools, its just a house"

There is something pretty much all d*******s in this world share ... a lack of empathy.

There is something pretty much all d*******s in this world share ... a lack of empathy.

I was going to say your Mum just to lighten the mood but decided against it

I would totally still hold my hand out if i lost everything and didn't have insurance
its natural to want help when you are completely and utterly boned

I just read in the paper on the train home that 80,000 people have donated so far, just online & that figure doesn't involve any in major donations like those from banks/supermarkets/etc (or personal donations made at redcross locations)

its already at $17mil

it makes me happy to live in this country and know that aussies give a f*** about people they dont even know

no one in the world deserves what has happened to these people, not even the arsonists themselves (it'd be too nice for them to die in a fire - they deserve much worse imo)

Temps are measured in kelvin.
And no one has got 0 kelvin (yet) so mininal is still a little above 0.

b0wned

last edited by tequila at 16:39:03 10/Feb/09

Take temperature measured in 'C for example, can be positive or negative, so therefore minimal is clearly greatest possible negative number in that case.

Temps are measured in kelvin.
And no one has got 0 kelvin (yet) so mininal is still a little above 0.

Minimal by definition implies "some" even if that some happens to be so small as to appear to be none. 0 by definition means none.


ps. I am not saying give em a hug. Or they aren't right to be upset or even seeking vengence on the arsonists (if they exist). Just pointing out the government and or public aren't required to pay for it all, that's why insurrance companies exist.

I just dont think that people should be crying about loosing possesions when people have died.

You can't say one persons loss doesn't count because someone lost something bigger or more important.

Plus, I am pretty sure they lost their possessions and they didn't just come loose and fall of the back of the car

You can't say one persons loss doesn't count because someone lost something bigger or more important.

Theres a f***en huge difference between loosing a house and a person.

Theres a f***en huge difference between loosing a house and a person.

Depends who the person is and what's in the house.

You have to pick.
Save Ivan Milat or ... the house that has the cure to all cancers written on the walls and you can pick only 1!

Yes, but that doesn't mean the person who lost their house can't mourn the loss of their home, their memories, their belongings!

There is no way you can compare losing a house and losing a loved one, but that doesn't mean you should tell someone who lost all their worldly possession that they should suck it up and just be glad they are alive.

Why can't they mourn the loss of their home, and be thankful they are alive?

You stop people from mourning properly and you will find depression rates will go through the roof!

And for god sake, it is LOSING/LOST not LOOSING/LOOSE

last edited by Kat at 16:50:02 10/Feb/09

I don't think I agree that it is for the sake of god

You can't say one persons loss doesn't count because someone lost something bigger or more important.

depends really - how much do you value human life?

if you value human life at all you can say that one is important vs. one being completely unimportant imo
we've already had this discussion at work (started off as why stay to defend a home vs. leave and protect you/your family)

I can honestly say straight up, if I went back and found my home completely burnt down to the ground, then looked next door and my neighbours wife + kids were there crying in front of their home which is still standing but the man of the house died to keep it standing; I wouldn't give two f***s about my house because there's someone 30 feet from me who has lost a father, a husband etc

if you disagree with me, answer me this; is there no one you've lost in your life that you wouldn't give up everything for just to have them back?

I obviously think staying to defend your home is silly; here's some math to demonstrate why

+ life + home = nice
+ life - home = pretty bad
+ home - life = completely boned
- home - life = who cares you're not even around to give a f*** if your house burnt down

losing your house, your furniture, your (any material possessions basically) PALES in comparison to losing a person and by staying to defend material possessions you're putting a value on your own life.
Its likely going to cost less than $1mil to replace the house - you don't even think your worth 1 million dollars?

Teq sums it up perfectly.

I can honestly say straight up, if I went back and found my home completely burnt down to the ground, then looked next door and my neighbours wife + kids were there crying in front of their home which is still standing but the man of the house died to keep it standing; I wouldn't give two f***s about my house because there's someone 30 feet from me who has lost a father, a husband etc

I completely agree with you. But when you leave the moment and you are faced with reality you don't have a house and everything you worked hard for and everything you collected over the years is gone.

I know that losing someone vs losing a house there is no comparison. But I couldn't imagine telling someone that they have no right to cry because they lost their house where as Mr Jones down the road lost his daughter/wife/son, whatever.

You can be thankful you are alive, while still mourning the loss of your house.

I just don't agree that we should berate people because they ONLY lost a house.

Yes, tell them that they should be thankful they have their lives, but don't tell them they have no right to mourn at all because if they shed one tear they are selfish pricks

I have nothing to sy about the silly discussion on who lost most and who should cry and who shouldn't. Just thankful it wasn't my family or friends.

Coles have announced they are going to donate profits from this Friday to the victims.

Do your weekly shopping this Friday at Coles, Bi-Lo etc. It costs you next to nothing out of pocket and its an easy way to help. They hope to deliver 2-4M from it.

this has turned into a cliche internet discussion

ie. pathetic

last edited by paveway at 17:13:58 10/Feb/09

Correct me if I am wrong ... but this is an internet discussion ?

paveway, your a cliche.

saying "your" when you mean "you're" is cliche.

that was my joke.

Correct me if I am wrong ... but this is an internet discussion ?

there is internet discussions, and there is arguing about who is more entitled to be crying after a natural disaster

come the f*** on

saying "your" when you mean "you're" is cliche.

it's very spook

ps. i think we need more special 1 hour news episodes to tell me that there has been big fires in victoria

last edited by paveway at 18:08:47 10/Feb/09

last edited by paveway at 18:14:51 10/Feb/09

There's been what in Victoria?

this is more spook imo;

Spook there is crying about natural disaster and then there is crying about internet discussions. Time and place! ... Time and place!

We should be talking about how Pastor Danny Nalliah is a complete d*******.

anyone see that photo in the paper today with the firefighter giving water to the koala..


was awesome

pics or lying

This one?
http://flickr.com/photos/misternaxal/3267505266/

thats pretty epic

That photo is awesome.

better photo:

http://media.kansascity.com/smedia/2009/02/10/05/APTOPIX_Australia_Wildfires.sff.standalone.prod_affiliate.81.jpg

yeah awesome pic

ps. i think we need more special 1 hour news episodes to tell me that there has been big fires in victoria

yeah i don't get the big deal, the vic burnt down like 12 months ago now. some people had to leave their drinks behind.

whatever.

that photo kicks some serious ass

Thundercracker posted them this morning.

Sorry, must have missed that post

There goes our Drop Bear reputations..

one from digg, could be distressing for some viewers:

http://static.reuters.com/resources/r/?m=02&d=20090209&t=2&i=8183388&w=450&r=2009-02-09T141513Z_02_GM1E52917T601_RTRRPP_0_AUSTRALIA-WILDFIRES?rpc=64'

last edited by infi at 01:27:03 11/Feb/09

Another dead horse? Whats so special about dead horses? The Big Picture had a dead horse photo too.

stop beating a dead horse you guys otherwise this will turn into a cliche internet discussion

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/02/bushfires_in_victoria_australi.html

Nice photo's there.

Those fires are spreading, his thread is on fire :/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do9AoKyjjQg

Video of the koala..

I've seen 3 different false charities for this in the last 48 hours. People on facebook, myspace and MSN forwarding on stupid links where there are bank details to send money to places. Profiteering f***s making money off other people's suffering.

so sad.

my parents were lucky...they were worried about the lack of rain and fires and sold their place in kinglake in november but only moved out a few days before the fires. My mum ran the kindergarten there which is now gone, and most of the their friends and old neighbours are now dead or missing. I wonder how the fires are going to affect the housing market there..any idea?

I went up there in december and honestly the place looked ready to go up in flames.

Kind of feel sorry for the animals they left behind. I'm pretty sure rosie the cow was roasted :\

See this area titled 'Sherbrooke Forest Park'? That's where it is right now.

Terrys Avenue, Belgrave

Yes, that's how close the fire now is to the massively populated areas of Melbourne. Population of Ferntree Gully is over 120,000 - and the wind is blowing North West - towards Ferntree Gully National Park.

FWIW, I live just near the Boronia Rd/Dorset Rd intersection, which you can see just west of there if you zoom out a few levels.

Oh yeah, and it reeks of smoke here.

Edit: Ah, looks like they've got it back to 3.5ha in size, and they're saying it's now controlled. But not extinguished.

Edit2: Yeeks:

Resources committed to this fire are:
22 trucks, 1 dozer, 135 personnel

last edited by Raven at 22:23:07 15/Feb/09

Belgrave is the end of my train line.. I hope you're OK out there Raven.

I'd like to say I trawled through the above 233 posts to check for a double post, but that would be a lie.

Man charged with Churchill fires named

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and ask why we they need so much money for the Fire Victims?

Stay with me here, Yes alot stuff was damaged, but if its private property, it should be insured, and if it isnt, you sure as hell shouldnt get a handout to rebuild it, its its government property, surely they are insured, if they arent, why would we give donations to fix it.

The only legitimate thing that it could be rebuilding would be community centres that arent insured, but surely most of them would be insured though.

I know a fair bit of the money would be going to immediate supplies and stuff like portable toilets etc, but surely that wouldnt be anywhere near the 64mil or something I last heard the red cross had gotten.

So then is it all going to the actual victims with medical expenses? Well some would have private insurance, the rest would use the public system, is the red cross giving people money to pay for out of pocket expenses for medical bills?


I just dont know where the money would be going, if anything it should be going straight to the volunteer firefighting organisations for better resources for the future.

because there's thousands of people living in tent cities who don't even have a change of clothes you heartless f***

imagine if it was you, going from the lucky country to third world in the space of one hot summers afternoon
You don't even have a credit card or wallet to go get some cash out and buy your kids an ice cream after they've just lost their Bike/Dog whatever-they-care-about-example-goes-here

Amongst those thousands of people will be cases where people have lost everything and didn't have insurance, are you that heartless than you think they should just 'suck it up' because they couldn't afford/didn't have insurance?

They shouldn't get their home paid for just beacuse they lost it in a fire but s*** - is it going to hurt the rest of us to chip in a few dollars and put them up in a rental house for a few months while they get back on their feet + rebuild their lives

jesus

teq, that's very true. But its becoming a really, really big pile of money.

2000 homes destroyed yeh? Lets say 85% were insured - surely that's a low figure. With 64M and rising, that's over 200k per uninsured house lost. The Red Cross could probably replace all uninsured private goods and pay for the temporary relief stuff at the moment without needing to dip into any reserves.

Its a really massive relief fund for the scale of the disaster - as horrible as it is its no asian tsunami or volcano. There are thousands affected, not bazillions.

Is there a point where they tell everyone that enough has been raised or do they just keep going? I haven't seen any targets mentioned, aside from "This is great, we have 56M now, lets try for 60!"

last edited by Hogfather at 15:12:06 16/Feb/09

Yeah i thought It might be heartless.

because there's thousands of people living in tent cities who don't even have a change of clothes you heartless f***

Yeah I know money would go to immediate assistance, which I understand and they obviously need.

You don't even have a credit card or wallet to go get some cash out and buy your kids an ice cream

Why not? They dont have a job? They cant get to the bank?

Amongst those thousands of people will be cases where people have lost everything and didn't have insurance, are you that heartless than you think they should just 'suck it up' because they couldn't afford/didn't have insurance?

Kinda yeah, if some random person in QLD had their house burn down and lose everything, would they get a handout?

I dunno maybe im too harsh, but If you have a job and insurance, you should be fine after the initial assistance, if you have a job and no insurance, then you should have to deal with it yourself after the initial assitance, if you have no job and no insurance, well then you probably dont have a house, and will probably need a bit of assitance longer term to help you out.

Where the area's burnt realy low income areas?

Why not? They dont have a job? They cant get to the bank?

because your wallet burned, in a fire.
along with every bit of ID and passport/photo evidence you have of your existence (thus making it difficult to get more id/bank cards etc)

I can't imagine what it might cost for the redcross just to feed & cloth a few thousand people that need immediate assistance..
I half agree, I mean i think the cash hit $100Mil already so I can't see how it would all be spent but I'm sure there's costs we can't begin to imagine

lots of people will need trauma counseling, i'm sure more than a handful are going to need full on rehab to ever walk again or talk again
the red cross might donate to a veterinary charity or something for all the animals that were injured

I'd kind of like to hope that more money than not actually gets spent on those in need but these charities don't operate for free, even if they are run by volunteers for the most part

it'd be nice if at the end of it all everyone was looked after and they gave the cash to the CFA or someone similar to buy more water trucks or choppers etc

my first thoughts when the govt announced their $10Mil package was 'what about the rest of it?' cause $10mil wont cover much
but when it reached $100mil i got to wondering where they're going to spend it all too

I dunno about your maths but there's a lot of costs involved. Latest I heard on the radio was $10 per person who lost a home and $7500 per injured person.

That's sweet f*** all.

Rebuilding is a very long-term project. You can't knock up these communities in a few weeks. As generous as everyone is, $70mil is hardly any money towards these mammoth objectives.

OMG GIVE THEM ALL OF THE 12 BILLION HANDOUT

Where the area's burnt realy low income areas?

No, but there were livestock farmers. What are they supposed to do to make money? You can't exactly sell the stock that burned to death, and even if they could afford new stock they wouldn't see a return on that stock for ages.

if only they had a decent backup policy

OMG GIVE THEM ALL OF THE 12 BILLION HANDOUT

no way, daddy needs a new bull bar

You can't exactly sell the stock that burned to death

Who can't.. I bought some beef jerky from the Vic markets that was smokey BBQ flavored.

I'd be triple checking that was beef ^

yeah maybe im underestimating things. It just kinda annoys me that people give so much money to these once off things when people all over australia have bad s*** happen to the all the time and they dont get a handout.

worst bushfires in Australias history, just keep that in mind before you compare someone losing their job & cant feed their family vs. someone loses their family

dunno about that

people get given $7k every time a condom breaks

just keep that in mind before you compare someone losing their job & cant feed their family vs. someone loses their family

I was thinking more about people that have children with cancer and stuff like that.

dunno about that

people get given $7k every time a condom breaks

heh I'll buy that for a euro.

But seriously I'm f***in' sick to death of hearing about the bushfires. This doesnt mean my sympathy for the victims has wained but my interest about the whole thing has reached -> cgaff

ffs to hell with media saturation and the fried horse it rode in on.

wonder what the new bandwagon the media will jump on... maybe another yellow glasses wearing f***** that had a party?

they're already smashing that 13 year old father in the UK every other chance they get

yeah the radio jokes had me groaning...
"lol, next they'll be having sex at 1 day old!!!"

But seriously I'm f***in' sick to death of hearing about the bushfires. This doesnt mean my sympathy for the victims has wained but my interest about the whole thing has reached -> cgaff

I don't think it's so much the topic, it's the presentation. I actually lol'd the other night when they did the weather on-site from 'fire affected Yea', complete with victims in the background, and then cut to a Coca Cola ad. That's where our commercial television is at - and that's why I refuse to watch it. I think Channel 10 believes that The Anchorman is a documentary...

If anyone's interested, 14 of us from the XC club went out to Redesdale today hoping to go riding - we had been told the fired had missed Mt Lofty, and only hit the edge of it.
We'd also been told the trails were still there - which was true, they were just under tons of leaf litter from dead trees and burned out fallen trunks and branches.

You can see the level of damage at http://www.getdropbox.com/gallery/97682/1/redesdale-clubride?h=c91b15 if you're at all interested.