I just had to figure out where the hell I was supposed to go tomorrow so thought this might be handy for other similarly clueless people.

Anyone got any good summary links that highlight all the parties major policies? I've been inundated with heaps of useless dead trees in my mailbox from my local MP that seem to be largely repetitive. I haven't gotten anything from the opposition yet, and their ads on TV leave me completely baffled as to what they might be able to do short of making lame attacks on the current party in power.

Already voted... Didn;t really care much for the policies since the thing was announced a while after i'd left aus... From reading Abc election watch every day I can't really find anything of note to make me vote for anyone in particular.. apart from the negative ads in the wake of springborgs father in law dieing or whatever....

Doesn't seem to be that well a run campaign from either side so going on past efforts Beatie will slid in and it will be 'a real wake up call by the people of Queensland, they expect a fresh style of goverenment that I aim to implement over my term' or some other spin along those lines.. I forsee him trainwrecking the whole thing and leaving anna bligh to pick up the pieces.. Hahahah so glad I'm not in qld atm :p

Noone cares what you have to say Irish

Wallabies to go down by alot tomorrow....

Ta trog :) I was wondering where would be the closest place around here since I have never had to vote here before.

P.S Donkey vote FTW (stop fining me for not voting damn government!) *shakes fist inefectively*

There have been a few threads on this already which already had all the 'what to do' info

P.S Donkey vote FTW (stop fining me for not voting damn government!) *shakes fist inefectively*

Don't donkey vote, it actually has an effect. Write "f*** this" or alternatively "Trapped in a polling booth send help" on the paper and walk out.

*Takes down Hashy's idea and plans to impliment it*
Ta :)

Homer Simpson: 1

nice.

also, is it only compulsory to vote because the parties get money for each vote they receive? because that sucks. waste 30 minutes of my saturday just for them, to hell with that, it's not like they're going to do a good job of anything anyway.

^ its compulsory to vote because....who the f*** else would vote if we werent forced to?
Boo Hoo we HAVE to spend 30 min of our day having a say on how our state is run.

The problem is people without a clue vote for the person with the best name. How do you think Arnie got elected???

Arnie's running? I'm so voting for him

God help this country if the level of apathy here is indicative across Australian society.

We are suck a selfish f***ing country it makes me sick inside.

suck it down infi.

those same 'selfish' c***s probably voted for Johny f***ing Winston so cheer up sunshine.

i'll take pride in australian politics when they give me something worth taking pride in

It seems you're doing enough caring for all of us infi

I just went down to vote and the dumb thing doesn't start until 8am.

>8-(

s***, I thought it was 6am...
good thing I haven't gone yet..
I might go place my "Trapped in polling booth" entry now :)

^ its compulsory to vote because....who the f*** else would vote if we werent forced to?

the people who actualy follow the government parties and know what is going on and want to change the people who run queensland instead of the people who dont give a f*** and vote jesus?

Thanks for the info Trog.

the people who actualy follow the government parties and know what is going on and want to change the people who run queensland instead of the people who dont give a f*** and vote jesus?

I think our system is better than the american one where it seems to be just about who has all the money to throw the best parties

Been and done
Convonext to me
"Just take that sir and fill it out and it put it in the box"
I don't have to fill that out
"Yeah you do"
DO NOT
"Haha you're right, you can do whatever you want with it"
Then the old man started mubling about how it all sucked and telling all to piss off

Ahhhh

don't worry infi... i care nuff to vote ;D

interesting to see from trog's link that there are ~100000 more female voters than male in qld.

last edited by demon at 09:23:54 09/Sep/06

You know what is also intersting?

Greens have the second most candidates in this election Total Candidates Nominated for Election by Party
Party
Abbr

Nominations
Australian Labor Party ALP 89
Family First Party FFP 26
The Greens GRN 75
Liberal Party LIB 49
The Nationals NPA 40
One Nation ONP 4
Other Candidates 46

Ohhhhh yeah, completely forgot about this. Im keen on writing Justin Hodges's name on the sheet.

just dont vote for the deluded f***s first party

thats why liberals and nationals combine cause they are s*** c***s which makes them as big as labour

I managed to sneak past all the dudes handing out flyers, it was excellent.

I always jump the fence and enter through a side door :)

Just carry something in each hand (mobile phone, wallet, MP3 player), then they won't try to hand you any flyers.

Excellent idea Tael.

I shall implement to determine the effectiveness of such a devious plan.

i just say no when they go to hand me s***, f***ing tossers

I take them, write my autograph on it, hand it back and say "thanks for watching".

BLAMO

!!take that coalition1!!1!


i was so happy with how my voting turned out i shouted myself pints and lunch at the muddy over the road from the voting station

last edited by Spook at 16:38:58 09/Sep/06

How difficult is it to say, "No thanks," ya fawkin' pansies.

the trick is to do a terry tate on all the flyer holders

You do know that if you are handed a flyer by someone and drop it on the ground, that the political party it represents has to clean it up

DROP YOUR FLIERS AN STICK IT TO THE MAN!!!!

You aren't sticking to the man. You are making some poor individual clean up after your inconsiderate arse

A) It's a "poor individual" affiliated in some manner with a political party so they don't count.
B) It isn't that hard to say no and/or keep walking.

For those few washed people who give a s*** the results can be found here

I think there will be some surprises in store for voterland based on the polling booths I was at today.

i wonder why there is no id check at the voting booths? because i still get a voting letter for a dude that used to live at my place but now lives overseas & i can't see whats to stop me from taking his letter to a different booth in my area & saying i was that guy & getting a 2nd vote. not that i'd bother but it seems a bit crap.

haha demon learn the skillz

you just have to look through the phonebook, memorise someones details and show up to the polling booth as soon as it opens

i think ID is definitely needed. but fraud rarely changes the results of a seat.

last edited by hast at 19:43:17 09/Sep/06

40/1700 donkey votes at the booth i was at, you guys suck :P

all incredibly un-original and unfunny apart from the "Beer - 1" and couple of Steve Irwin/Peter Brock ones :/

at least waste your time voting to give the counters a bit of a laugh :(

I think there will be some surprises in store for voterland based on the polling booths I was at today.

Wow, I'm certainly surprised by a few things like the margin and labor possibly holding on to Indooroopilly! I knew the coalition weren't going to win but how they did this badly is beyond me.

compulsory voting goes some of the way to avoiding political systems where vocal minorities from the far left or right gain a disproportionate amount of power. you want an example why we shouldn't make voting voluntary, look at the USA.

bloody hell

how does that smug bastard ronan lee manage to win by a bee's dick every time

I voted LOL in the boxes. Fukc voting for ronan 's***eating grin' lee and that other dude who had his minions waving signs and cheesy smiling and waving as I drive over the Indro bridge every day.

First of all, what's with f***ing channel 7 stopping the Sound of Music to insert random election coverage? If you're going to be stupid enough to schedule a movie at the same time as election results are going to be finalised, at least suck it up and put your crap on afterwards so it doesn't annoy people that are trying to watch the damn movie.

Secondly, what's with the complete and utter JERKS that they have covering this thing? There's some complete asshat that's spouting anti-labour drivel the second the camera focuses on him. He can't stop talking about the 'health scandals' and the 'water problems' to every ALP member that is unfortunate enough to get neat him. He's basically trying to downtalk the ALP saying they're uncoordinated spastics despite the fact that a clear, perhaps even VAST majority of Queenslanders just voted them back in NOT JUST TEN SECONDS AGO?

Sheesh dude, have a lemonade and chill out and accept the fact that everyone thinks Beattie and Co are going to actually fix these problems.

I would recommend mountain dew over lemonade for this particular application

f*** that trog.

Everyone votes for labor in queensland becuase

a) Queensland, sadly, is a pretty much bogan state.

b) Springborg is a whiny asshat and is never seen commenting on solutions, rather bitching out labor and "Dr Bruce Flegg MP" is a deads***. (That giant billboard in the valley was pretty damn annoying to have to drive past)

/cry

I hate state elections, it always depresses me. eeeeee-awwwwwww.

trog, watch channel 2 then

He's basically trying to downtalk the ALP saying they're uncoordinated spastics despite the fact that a clear, perhaps even VAST majority of Queenslanders just voted them back in NOT JUST TEN SECONDS AGO?

I mean what the f*** is with that? they were the ones who f***ed ithe hospitals, roads and water systems that are in crisis at the moment.

I predicted a 3% swing to the coalition so the 0.8% swing to ALP suprised me.

two things about elections are truisms:
i) voters are very rarely ever wrong;
ii) voters get the government they deserve.

The Coalition must now go back to the drawing board and make a new pitch to voterland that Beattie and his moronic crew of merry yes men need some time in opposition.

gg qld

a) Queensland, sadly, is a pretty much bogan state.

That's a bold claim when you consider how much the opposition floundered like a dead fish. I'd argue you'd almost have to be a bogan to vote liberal if you just look at the ad campaigns of the recent weeks, their policies aside (I have to add those last 3 words because no liberal money was ever used productively for their tv campaigns to tell me why they might suck less than the ALP, only why the ALP suck).

Kat: maybe you didn't hear me, I'm TRYING to watch the sound of music!

i) voters are very rarely ever wrong;

Wrong about what?

trog: Oh.....really?? Wow. Sorry, I guess my brain refused to accept that.

Wrong about what?

about who deserves to win

infi, you obviously haven't seen Battlestar Galactica, Season 2 (NOW ON DVD!)

lick those wounds

i see enough bs happen in realife. sci fi is extraeneous.

QLD is a lot like a battlestar... and Trog is Starbuck

That's a bold claim when you consider how much the opposition floundered like a dead fish. I'd argue you'd almost have to be a bogan to vote liberal if you just look at the ad campaigns of the recent weeks, their policies aside (I have to add those last 3 words because no liberal money was ever used productively for their tv campaigns to tell me why they might suck less than the ALP, only why the ALP suck).

If the state is all bogan then even the liberals will be bogans. (And certainly all the farm boy nats are bogans as well.) I dunno who goes into politics anymore. All the really smart people realise there is a better living in private management/business than gov/politics management. So the government is populated by unimpressive jerks who are in some way too damaged to make it on their own. We need a revival of charasmatic leadership :(

increase polllies pays. it's that simple.

^

what he said.

If the state is all bogan....

Bogans don't vote greens and they got 8% of the vote. So by that logic the state can't be all bogan.... only 92% max.

Bogans don't vote greens and they got 8% of the vote. So by that logic the state can't be all bogan.... only 92% max.

Actually, I think you will find that everyone that votes green are bogans who overheard a few smart kids in the library at uni saying that green is a better vote than donkeying :P

P.S. trog - you should have watched the AFL - classic hard final with minimal interuption and a 1 point win

Once again you're logic is flawed... sif a bogan would ever be seen in a library!

Once again you're logic is flawed... sif a bogan would ever be seen in a library!

They had a group meeting with some other nerdy students who were doign their assignment for them! Foiled again!

We should put up a survey/poll and find out how the online gaming community voted, so we can see how boganised we really are...

They had a group meeting with some other nerdy students who were doign their assignment for them! Foiled again!

But they wouldn't bother turning up because as soon as they got to uni they'd be too preocuppied with doing circle work in the carpark. HA!

it's pretty clear, it's boganed.

libs got stinkfisted

Shutup infi or I'll bash ya in the carpark mate!

Shutup infi or I'll bash ya in the carpark mate!

how very very bogan

I'm proud I didn't vote for Beattie. That guy is such a phony. The whole ALP campaign was designed to appeal to the simple bogan element.

last edited by infi at 23:19:21 09/Sep/06

I'm partly being a smartarse but also partly serious when I ask this - Who was the coalition campaign designed to appeal to?

they had one?

Who was the coalition campaign designed to appeal to?

All those who had been let down by the chronic mismanagement of the state for the past 8 years.

If you
- don't get sick or
- aren't affected by the water restrictions or
- don't drive on congested roads

then that needn't apply to you.

last edited by infi at 23:02:23 09/Sep/06

Seems like most of Queensland doesn't get sick, care about water restrictions or drive a car then? Seriously, the coalition had Labor in the crosshairs but not only did they not pull the triger, they turned the gun around and shot themselves in the foot.

I seriously hope this is a harbinger for the next federal election.

The Coalition did indeed stuff their campaign up, and there is no excuse for that. I feel that Queensland has been let down down by the fact that Queenslanders felt they had no option but to vote for the pathetic Labor team.

I hope that in 3 years time there will be a more coordinated offering so that Queenslanders are confident to vote for change.

I seriously hope this is a harbinger for the next federal election.

I wonder what Labor can offer at the Federal level that would eclipse the roaring economic boomtime the Coalition has generated?

take the red pill infi

I'm impressed by the knowledge and interest you all have in politics. QLD is a better place because of you. Im quite drunk right now

all i can say is, WHERE THE f***S MY BRIDGE AND TRAIN IN REDDY, FFS CNTS

all i can say is, WHERE THE f***S MY BRIDGE AND TRAIN IN REDDY, FFS CNTS

Shouldnt you be more worried about getting a decent hospital? :O

Do bogans need hospitals?

pfft way to go with the old jokes

hah. Anyone who even thinks this state election will change minds of people voting in the next federal election to vote labor is bung. Unless Howard plays around with an intern or some s*** there is no chance that the coalition will lose the next federal election. People should look at what the Howard government has done for this country - completely turned it around from the bulls*** keating era to todays booming economy etc etc.. There are too many idiots to realise the facts. Laborites and their voters have to whinge about nothing topics like iraq to try and swing voters.

QGL calling people bogans? Talk about pot kettle black.

The federal parliment is alot like Queensland, except that the government are doing things well. (unlike beatie) The opposition are a bunch of whiny morons like here, but they have even less to whine about and seemingly, just as few answers...

If EVERYONE in QLD voted for labor, even with all the problems, how on earth can labor win federally if the QLD coalition got hammered so bad doing what labor do in canberra. I laugh at the idea of labor coming into power outside of state politics. "this is me laughing"

I think the pollies who want to be elected should do an Uwe boxing match.

uhhh, isnt the Vic govt labor too? Also most of the other states are as well now I think (WA had an election recently so maybe not them).

Two bobs worth from a non voter, I dont think Beetie is much worth voting for but in the light of alternatives running against him he was the best of a bad bunch.

Wouldnt have done any good in my area, the running MP in Kenmore is libral leader Bruce Flegg, and labor were just paying lip service by being represented in the area by some nub

It's sad that the Liberal campain sucked so much dick. These days I usually vote for the party that slanders the other party the least, because if all a party can do is slander another party it means they don't really know (or believe in) their own policies. Either that or they're just dumb school kids calling the other kids mean names.

^^^Agreed.... that's usually what I base my vote on.

I voted at Toowong High School on Bywong at about 5.30pm. Walked straight in and was the only one there - nicely tucked away. Definitely going there for future votes (Indooroopilly).

isnt the Vic govt labor too? Also most of the other states are as well now I think

This is something like the 20th straight state or territory election that labor has won. The conservatives can't make a dint in state politics anywhere around Australia.

ALL State governments are Labor.

Unless Howard plays around with an intern or some s***...

You either don't realise this isn't america or are young. Bob Hawke was a slut and it didn't hurt him one bit.

Two bobs worth from a non voter, I dont think Beetie is much worth voting for but in the light of alternatives running against him he was the best of a bad bunch.

You QLDers seem to really fear change. Does anyone know when was the last time QLD had only a two term government?

When you do have a choice between a crap party and a party that's f***ed you, chose the crap party, they'll work out what to do, every new government does. It's boom time and a monkey couldn't f*** it up any more than they already have.

Enjoy your next few years of rolling power strikes and water restrictions. I'm sure it'll all be someone else's fault even when it gets to the two decade marker for this government.

Red pill, rather like the red pos

natslovR: I didn't vote for Howard or Can Do Campbell, but obviously the majority did.

They stuck with the same to keep Johnny - f***ed over.
They went with change to get Can Do Campbel - f***ed over.

Can't win

Can-Do is fixing the roads around my area though, GO HARD SON!!!!

Roads are done to spend the budget left overs. It doesn't matter who is in office.

liberal will keep pwning federal politics because they keep pwning the economy. economic rationalism wins everytime.

Yeah but they're targetting the suburbs around MY area Kat, so f***ing good on him...he's got my vote

Bogans don't vote greens and they got 8% of the vote. So by that logic the state can't be all bogan.... only 92% max.

Ahaha - "bogan"...I love that word!

You QLDers seem to really fear change. Does anyone know when was the last time QLD had only a two term government?

prior to the current labor government in queeensland the coalition under joh bjelke held the state for 41 years using a gerimander to control the vote. this hardly constitutes a fear of change... the people of brisbane would have loved to vote joh out on many occasions but the biasing of the vote towards the country hicks kept him in power. many qld voters remember this & it will be a cold day in hell before they vote for the nationals or thier liberal cronies.

back then under the coalition we had power strikes & s***ty public hospital funding too. these issues are just treated as political chicanery. i don't delude myself that the labor party is really that much better... only a buzzword spewing fanboi like infi would think that one side is righteous & the other evil... it's quite funny that his reason the federal liberal govt is successful is the same reason beattie gave for the state labor govt being successful.

like so many australian elections... the people chose the 'least s***' option from a big bag of s***.

eK - I guess. People only think about what is good for them and not what is good for the majority ;)

Kat, this is the most insightful I've ever seen you.... are you drunk?

At 11:30am on a sunday? I wish!

Well there's definitely something very abnormal happening here.

like so many australian elections... the people chose the 'least s***' option from a big bag of s***.

True. I know one guy though who quite simply refuses to vote when that is the only way one can choose...he just doesn't think he should force himself to vote for anyone when he doesn't particularly agree with any of the parties political campaigns.

Found out last night he's never been fined either!

Once you get the card from the people and they cross you off the list, you can do whatever you like with that voting card Agent99. No one can match any vote (or non vote) against names

Just because he doesn't vote - doesn't mean he doesn't pretend to for paperwork purposes

Yeah, true - I didn't actually ask him if he did sign off to vote and not actually vote, or if he just didn't vote period. Knowing him though, it was prolly the latter...

Edit: Note he is actually a really smart guy, he just thinks about things heaps and just likes to be really true to his beliefs. That's why I say he prolly just didn't vote period.

last edited by Agent 99 at 11:50:15 10/Sep/06

If he didn't vote period he would have been fined repeatedly.

I've never been fined for not voting. I receive a letter asking me why I didn't vote, I write a response and that's the end of it.

True. I know one guy though who quite simply refuses to vote when that is the only way one can choose

And that's why the two party system continues to hold sway. Vote for a third party, maybe a bit of change would do the planet good.

It's a pity democracy is such a s*** way to run a government. Unfortunately it's the only fair way, so until we develop AI that is capable of looking after us, we're boned.

How many times have you not voted Jim and what was your reason?

Edit: Note he is actually a really smart guy, he just thinks about things heaps and just likes to be really true to his beliefs. That's why I say he prolly just didn't vote period.

smart guy in your view, but if he was smart he'd still go to vote so he didn't get fined (we do live by laws/rules) and just put in a dummy vote. it's not like they look at what you're voting, you just get your name ticked off.

until we develop AI that is capable of looking after us, we're boned.

I for one welcome our new robot overlords

cut the crap c***s, who won?

p.s. I for one welcome the use of alliteration on this forum


last edited by Booyah at 13:39:04 10/Sep/06

hey infi, youre talking s***. surely to christ you arent stupid enough to believe this 'economic boomtime' was created by the coalition?

I was reading some excerpts from a Mcfarlane interview in the Weekend Australian and he pretty much gave the impression he was fairly nonplussed about Howards bulls*** tactics making out that the low interest rate environment we have been in during his 10yr tenure as RBA governor was a gift from the libs.

the only good thing he had to say was that their fiscal policy was sound and that Costello let em do their job independent from the executive.

dont make me smite you with the facts. anyone who knows the difference between a s*** and a haircut knows that macroeconomic factors have been the primary driver of recent prosperity. nice try though.

Hahahahahaha, I'm glad someone else picked up on that. ^^^ Credit where credit is due, the libs have done a good job of not f***ing things up, but they've been riding the wave of international prosperity not causing it.

they've continued with quality microeconomic reform, reduced government debt by metric f***tons (admittedly with help from strong growth) and not managed to f*** too much else up. can't expect much more from a government imo.

ustralian Labor Party ALP 858,607 47.36
Liberal Party LIB 365,269 20.15
The Nationals NPA 314,882 17.37
The Greens GRN 143,346 7.91
Family First Party FFP 35,228 1.94
One Nation ONP 11,387 0.63
Other Candidates 84,231 4.65


Sweet mother of god, so if I had a licence to kill, there would be 35,228 people who voted for Family First party that I'd have to kill, and 11,387 who voted for One Nation that I would have to brutally execute in the most inhumane, torterous and painful experience any one human being could possible conceive.

fpot: I've lost count
the reasons I'd rather not go into atm

clearly voting's against his religion

You're talking through your ass if you don't think Howard fixed the economic situation in Australian.

Labor had outspent their means for 13 years of deficits which drive interest rates up as the government borrows money from the market at higher prices than the private sector can afford.

By repaying debt (read: returning borrowing supply to the market) and running successive budget surpluses, interest rates quickly fell because the government was no longer dominating the buying in the debt market.

These successive surpluses are what insulated Australia from the Russian, Argentinian and Asia economic crises. Labor on the other likes to spend like a drunken sailor, far beyond their means and you will note that the penny has finally dropped with Kim Beazley and he has mandated that all ALP policy must result in a balanced budget this time round.

Keating did institue many macro reforms to the economy but they were at the behest of the Libs and he was just getting ino to take the credit for it.

Both federally and at a state Level the Labor Party are a talentless bunch of phonies. Arguing about economic performance just reinforce. (*Cough* Gough Whitlam)

no your wrong

no u r

Always start the sentence with a capital letter gym. Otherwise good post.

k

unt.

ie

You're talking through your ass if you don't think Howard fixed the economic situation in Australian.

Labor had outspent their means for 13 years of deficits which drive interest rates up as the government borrows money from the market at higher prices than the private sector can afford.

By repaying debt (read: returning borrowing supply to the market) and running successive budget surpluses, interest rates quickly fell because the government was no longer dominating the buying in the debt market.

These successive surpluses are what insulated Australia from the Russian, Argentinian and Asia economic crises. Labor on the other likes to spend like a drunken sailor, far beyond their means and you will note that the penny has finally dropped with Kim Beazley and he has mandated that all ALP policy must result in a balanced budget this time round.

Keating did institue many macro reforms to the economy but they were at the behest of the Libs and he was just getting ino to take the credit for it.

Both federally and at a state Level the Labor Party are a talentless bunch of phonies. Arguing about economic performance just reinforce. (*Cough* Gough Whitlam)

Summary = times were good and the libs(/nats) didn't it f*** up. In all honesty I think that's the best you can hope for from politicians so well done all round.

Let’s get up and vote!
Let’s make our voices heard!
We’ve been given the right to choose between a douche and a turd.
It’s democracy in action.
Put your freedom to the test.
A big fat turd or a stupid douche?
Which do you like best?

are you telling me that the fed funds rate and the BOJ zero interest rate policy has had nothing to do with our interest rate policy and that domestic factors are all that determines levels of interest rates? the forest, not the trees bro.

globally those historically low interest rates were a f***ing ABBERATION. they also happened to be an arse-talking bum dicksucking lib politicians wet dream as well.

and whattup with all those f***ing surpluses infi? you are aware all those surpluses come from taxing our arses arent you? why do we f***ing need them when Howard is bringing in record amounts of tax revenue from an economy expanding at 3 percent? maybe he knows something we dont? maybe finance more global troop deployment perhaps?

Irony is the f***ing libs have to spend all that cash sooner or later and it looks like that glut of spending couldnt come at a worse possible time as we are moving into a normal interest rate environment. that fiscal restraint will be Howards achilles heel. suck s*** libs.

all Howard has done in the last 10yrs is made it easier for banks and big business to f*** us over and divided the community with his xenophobic attitude. thats the bottom line in 25 words or less.

rba sets interest rate to target inflation, sometimes they try to target more than inflation and it usually doesn't work as per poole's analysis would suggest. global macroeconomic variables will influence inflation sure, but in effect no the fed and boj have no influence on the rba except through those variables. infi is pretty much right in saying that overall pretty decent economic management has sheltered us from some of the tough times the rest of the world has seen since the late 90s. early in this decade most of the world has been though at least a small recession at some time - look at the gdp data. we haven't and we are a tiny open economy. if you can't chalk that up to policymakers getting it right for once then i'd like to hear your explanation for it. the mainstream view from macroeconomists is that surpluses during times of growth is a natural and desirable thing. just the same as mainstream economists would suggest running a deficit during recessions.

edit: low interest rates were set to combat a buttload of negative demand shocks the US and rest of world saw in early 2000's. expansive monetary policy is the perfect demand management policy to counter negative shocks to aggregate demand. the generally accepted view is the fed under greenspan did a pretty decent job. funny thing is if you model their decisions they pretty much follow taylors rule during the whole time. i'd like to hear how you would've handled it?



last edited by taggs at 23:57:08 10/Sep/06

im not sure why you are asking me how I would have handled the situation taggs.

did I say that expansive monetary policy was not the way to go? not at all. I am saying that those interest rates were not a 'gift' from the libs and that in actual fact they are a result of those negative factors which smashed the US and Japan, rather than Howards discretional fiscal policy which infi loves talking up. the fact that we are a tiny open economy reinforces the point that the larger global economic powers lead and we follow.

When in Rome.....

smart guy in your view, but if he was smart he'd still go to vote so he didn't get fined (we do live by laws/rules) and just put in a dummy vote. it's not like they look at what you're voting, you just get your name ticked off.

True, but he's just not the kind of guy to do something if he doesn't agree with it. He doesn't agree with voting and he doesn't pretend to, at least from what I understand.

Meh.

sweet.
now we get another term of balding beattie to do nothing again -_-

but how do you explain most of the world experiencing some form of recession between 2000 and now and australia not getting one. because we are a tiny open economy we should have followed the US or SE asia into recession but we didn't. how do you explain that?

also, is it only compulsory to vote because the parties get money for each vote they receive?

No, compulsory voting was implemented for two reasons; one to make it impossible for racial or social bigotry to hinder the voting process and two, you don’t have the majority of the publics opinion if only the minority voted.

For me, the most important part is the protection towards minorities. If you look at America there have been times where members of fringe elements have attempted to make it more difficult for a racial minority to vote, like the KKK towards African-Americans. Obviously that isn’t an example of democracy at work.

a) Queensland, sadly, is a pretty much bogan state.

Premier of Queensland The Hon Peter Beattie MP ALP June 1998

Premier of Victoria The Hon Steve Bracks MLA ALP October 1999

Chief Minister for the Northern Territory of Australia Ms Clare Martin MLA ALP August 2001

Chief Minister of the Australian Capital Territory Mr Jon Stanhope MLA ALP November 2001

Premier of South Australia The Hon Mike Rann MHA ALP March 2002

Premier of Tasmania The Hon Paul Lennon MHA ALP March 2004

Premier of New South Wales The Hon Morris Iemma MLA ALP August 2005

Premier of Western Australia The Hon Alan Carpenter MLA ALP January 2006

Yeah, it’s just Queensland.

I mean what the f*** is with that? they were the ones who f***ed ithe hospitals, roads and water systems that are in crisis at the moment.

Not exactly true. Roads, water and hospitals have been f***ed in Queensland for the last 50 odd years and labour has continued the s***ty practice of limp-dick support for these facilities. However, unlike the previous governments, the population explosion that has occurred in the SEQ has really hit water and roads hard and Labour hasn’t responded fast enough too it . So, for a young or ignorant voter, I could understand why you would think that it is all labours fault.

Seems like most of Queensland doesn't get sick, care about water restrictions or drive a car then? Seriously, the coalition had Labor in the crosshairs but not only did they not pull the triger, they turned the gun around and shot themselves in the foot.

Almost everybody I know couldn’t believe that the coalition could keep things as they where, let alone improve anything.

Infi its you who is talking out there ass. Its actually the Keatings reforms that created the environment for growth (thats how long policies take to have a real effect) and insulated us from the Asian bust up ie. floating the dollar, removing market protections/tarrifs, enterprise bargaining, supers, bank deregulation. But this isn't a big horn blowwing session for Labor, sure it was their ideas, but the Libs supported it in the Senate.

And even before that Hewson as part of the Fraser government with the banking and bond reforms.

The effects of the Howard government are only starting to trickle through now.
And all I see are :
A whole generation of people who won't be able to afford to buy homes.
A government getting more out of petrol taxes then ever before while we pay more at the pumps.
A whole sub class of welfare driven families (cash for babies boom).
A telco that isn't providing a service or making the profits it once was.
Destruction of worker protections and rights (its fine now when there is lots of jobs)
Also, becoming a branch office of America sucks ass.
That said if he can pull off the free trade agreement with china that'll be a win for us.

but how do you explain most of the world experiencing some form of recession between 2000 and now and australia not getting one. because we are a tiny open economy we should have followed the US or SE asia into recession but we didn't. how do you explain that?

As a tiny open economy we follow the rest of the world into recession. The reason we haven't had one in the last few years is the rest of the world hasn't been in recession all at once. We've been able to change our markets as different countries have gone from prosperity to recession and back again, thereby managing to avoid problems. The US economy may or may not pull us down eventually, but if the whole world went into recession there is nothing the Howard government (or any other government for that matter) could do to stop us from following.

you're twisting what i said. i said that most of the world has experienced some form of recession or economic downturn in the years from 2000 til now. that is true, i'll dig up the data later tonight if you want. australia hasn't.

we've been able to change our markets? what do you mean by that. are you saying we changed our trading behaviour in response to economic shocks? fluctuations in trade occur all the time as real exchange rates correct and recorrect themselves. though i doubt any structural changes have occured in direct response to economic shocks. if you have any data to support that claim i'd be happy to see it, the more you know etc :)

i never said that if the entire world simulaneously went into recession that a government could stop that. i'm studying economics at uni i'd like to think i'm not that stupid :)

edit: the generally accepted view held by most mainstream economists is that australia has avoided recession for the last 14 years is by strong growth in productivity, mostly brought about by microeconomic reforms. keating started this off, though many would have argued it should have started earlier. the fact that we had a fixed exchange rate right up until the early ninties was rediculous given the size of our economy. another factor why we have avoided recession is extremely strong domestic demand even in the face of global economic downturn, such as the asian currency crisis and after shocks like 9/11.

edit2: i should add that the strong domestic demand must be attributed at least in part to good economic management by policymakers.

oh and i disagree with suggestions we will follow the US into recession. the high correlation in business cycles between the US and Aus since the post war era was mostly caused by the recessions in early 80s and early 90s and the corresponding high interest rates in those periods. because the adoption of inflation targeting has meant monetary policy has been very successful in acheiving constant low inflation and this is expected to continue into the future alot of economists argue that there is no reason to think that the high correlation from the 80s to 2000 will continue. that's not to say there will be no correlation because the US is the worlds largest economy and has at least some effect on pretty much everyone. but i don't think we would follow them into recession without domestic factors coinciding with their downturn. this is clearly evident in early this decade where the US saw a downturn and we continued on our path of constant growth.

last edited by taggs at 11:35:44 11/Sep/06

we've been able to change our markets? what do you mean by that. are you saying we changed our trading behaviour in response to economic shocks? fluctuations in trade occur all the time as real exchange rates correct and recorrect themselves. though i doubt any structural changes have occured in direct response to economic shocks. if you have any data to support that claim i'd be happy to see it, the more you know etc :)

Sorry I don't have time to go digging for figures but you're right about the fluctuations in trade happening all the time. Off the top of my head I can remember analysis of more of our resource trade going to Europe and the US during the Asian economic downturn without seeing any figures. That's the kind of shift I'm talking about.

i never said that if the entire world simulaneously went into recession that a government could stop that. i'm studying economics at uni i'd like to think i'm not that stupid :)

Yeah, that wasn't directed at you - just a general comment, no dramas.

edit: the generally accepted view held by most mainstream economists is that australia has avoided recession for the last 14 years is by strong growth in productivity, mostly brought about by microeconomic reforms. keating started this off, though many would have argued it should have started earlier. the fact that we had a fixed exchange rate right up until the early ninties was rediculous given the size of our economy. another factor why we have avoided recession is extremely strong domestic demand even in the face of global economic downturn, such as the asian currency crisis and after shocks like 9/11.

That's definitely a major part of it but I don't think it's the full story.

oh and i disagree with suggestions we will follow the US into recession.....

I said we may follow them, or may not. As you pointed out later the US has an impact on all economies but we don't have to go down with them.

i also disagree that we will follow the US into recession. as a trading partner, the US is nowhere near as significant to Aus as Asian countries are.

The US already had one big ass recession (post Tech bubble) in 2001-2002 and we didn't hurt from that because we were selling stuff out of the ground to asia.

Now due to the China juggernaut we are experiencing steady growth (2.1% for the last 12 months while China grew at 11%) which has been limited by our continuing inflexible labour system. Once WorkChoices is fully implemented and the Federal Award system completely dismantled, Australia shouuld begin to grow faster and our structural efficiency will hit full speed.

If we want to grow as a country and have a higher standard of living we really do need more foreign investment and much more flexible IR laws.

As for Obes' complaints about the Federal Government:

A whole generation of people who won't be able to afford to buy homes.

First home grant offset that somewhat. However given the Labor Party's laws it introduced legalising negative gearing of investment properties in 1985, owner occupiers will always be behind the eightball. John Howard also recently stated that the complexity and sloth of State Governments in their limited release of land for development has contributed to spiralling residental prices.

A government getting more out of petrol taxes then ever before while we pay more at the pumps.

ALP has said it would not cut the taxes either. Get real they are an essential component of the Federal budget. Fuel is way too cheap anyways imo (Bottled water is dearer ffs). I am wanting for fuel to hit $2 very soon. So these state labor governments better start getting their public transport infrastructure growing.

A whole sub class of welfare driven families (cash for babies boom).

What rubbish. Fertility is one of the major weaknesses in Australia (economically speaking) as we rely so heavily on migration to sustain our workforce. Welfare around families (Family Tax Benefit A & B, Baby Bonus, Childcare Subsidy etc) have all been directed to higher workforce participation and higher fertility rates. If the Government did nothing, fertility would continue to stay below replacement rate (at its lowest a couple years back it was 1.8%).

A telco that isn't providing a service or making the profits it once was.

The Fed Government was in the uneviable position of owning the largest telco and being the market regulator. Telstra needed to be sold down to a minority holding so it could raise capital and not be dominated by government policy at election time. Once again the ALP recognised this with QANTAS and Com Bank which it happily sold off.

Destruction of worker protections and rights (its fine now when there is lots of jobs)

A worker's best protection is to make money for their employer and to be flexible. Workers who want to cruise along on legal protections and award minimums are not what this country needs.

Also, becoming a branch office of America sucks ass.

America has a big army, we don't. Go figure.

That said if he can pull off the free trade agreement with china that'll be a win for us.

wow great work!

Premier of South Australia The Hon Mike Rann MHA ALP March 2002

Rann just got relected a few months ago.

First home grant offset that somewhat. However given the Labor Party's laws it introduced legalising negative gearing of investment properties in 1985, owner occupiers will always be behind the eightball. John Howard also recently stated that the complexity and sloth of State Governments in their limited release of land for development has contributed to spiralling residental prices.

Urban sprawl as a solution for housing prices, genious! Please do me a favour and visit LA sometime. In a world where petrol is not going to get much cheaper that is the most retarded idea I've ever heard and you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting it.

I'm not going to cover the complete list of reasons why infi is talking out of his ass because Obes handled a lot of them quite well. I think the major point of interest is that in one of the biggest resource booms this country has ever seen we have a government

a) not planning for a future which will see a huge generational shift (baby boomers retiring) and will require many more millions of dollars in health care and subsidised nursing homes as many of these people have not had Super for their full working lives.

b) not giving us actual reforms. The Abbot and Costello act just isn't funny when the government continually gives us handbacks rather than making meaningful changes to the way people are taxed. It might work at the polls but the next generation will be the ones hurt.

c) giving us a raft of invasions into personal privacy (aren't these guys meant to be Liberal???).

People might feel richer thanks to a housing boom but a number of them are going to lose those houses when inflation catches up. So yeah, Howard might have handled the first 5 years pretty well but he was coming in on a wave of reforms.

P.S. I'm a labour party member.

last edited by Denny at 12:24:15 11/Sep/06

last edited by Denny at 12:25:01 11/Sep/06

The effects of the Howard government are only starting to trickle through now.
And all I see are :
A whole generation of people who won't be able to afford to buy homes.
A government getting more out of petrol taxes then ever before while we pay more at the pumps.
A whole sub class of welfare driven families (cash for babies boom).
A telco that isn't providing a service or making the profits it once was.
Destruction of worker protections and rights (its fine now when there is lots of jobs)

You forgot a generation of people where University is a privileged of the rich.

Howard has been selling our future security for immediate satisfaction.

a) not planning for a future which will see a huge generational shift (baby boomers retiring) and will require many more millions of dollars in health care and subsidised nursing homes as many of these people have not had Super for their full working lives.

fully decutible super this year - opposed by labour
future fund - opposed by labor
private health insurance and childcare rebates - opposed by labor

b) not giving us actual reforms. The Abbot and Costello act just isn't funny when the government continually gives us handbacks rather than making meaningful changes to the way people are taxed. It might work at the polls but the next generation will be the ones hurt.

GST - opposed by labor and state labor governments (until they started receving the money now it comprises half of qld's budget)
Major Tax Cuts over most of the last 5 years - opposed by labor.

c) giving us a raft of invasions into personal privacy (aren't these guys meant to be Liberal???).

I actually agree with you here and I lobbied Federal members strongly to delete the control orders, sedition offence and detention without charge provision. The control orders and detention without charge provisions are now overseen by the judiciary which is a good balance.

You forgot a generation of people where University is a privileged of the rich.

I was never able to understand this. HECS allows students to put it all on the tab (and we are a privledged country in that HECS represents something like 20% of the real cost of a uni degree). What I cannot understand is why the Labor party would oppose full fee paying domestic students. These rich kids actually help lower the cost of education for the poor kids. Australians just love to cut the tall poppies down I suppose.

What rubbish. Fertility is one of the major weaknesses in Australia (economically speaking) as we rely so heavily on migration to sustain our workforce. Welfare around families (Family Tax Benefit A & B, Baby Bonus, Childcare Subsidy etc) have all been directed to higher workforce participation and higher fertility rates. If the Government did nothing, fertility would continue to stay below replacement rate (at its lowest a couple years back it was 1.8%).

The problem is that we are funding the trash of society to breed and have children. So, you might be happy that our nation is breeding ignorant white unemployed trash, but it isn’t going to help Australia grow.

The Fed Government was in the uneviable position of owning the largest telco and being the market regulator. Telstra needed to be sold down to a minority holding so it could raise capital and not be dominated by government policy at election time. Once again the ALP recognised this with QANTAS and Com Bank which it happily sold off.

There’s a major difference between Telstra’s position and either QANTAS or the Commonwealth Bank; Telstra is the only organise that is not only the largest and strongest organisation in it’s field (within Australia), but Telstra has a monopoly on all of the telecommunication infrastructure within the nation.

A worker's best protection is to make money for their employer and to be flexible. Workers who want to cruise along on legal protections and award minimums are not what this country needs.

The only good part about the IR reforms was the simplification of firing someone. Previously it was just impossible to get rid of someone. Other than that, the current IR laws only work for intelligent and charismatic employees, and against everybody else. Look at IT as a great example, people who are good at what they do, but suck at talking themselves up get paid s*** wages, those with great expressive personalities often end up on much, much more.

Anyway, previous to the IR law reform, there was nothing stopping organisations from offering individual contracts to hardworking individuals that paid more or offered a better package.

America has a big army, we don't. Go figure.

We didn’t need a FTA for their support in defending our nation.

Rann just got relected a few months ago.

I know, the date kinda suggests it. However, you can’t go bag Queensland for having a labour government, when EVERY state has a labour government.

was never able to understand this. HECS allows students to put it all on the tab (and we are a privledged country in that HECS represents something like 20% of the real cost of a uni degree).

Education should be free or at least the payment should be more than fair. Having an intelligent and educated society proves for a more successful economy than having a poor, under-educated, unintelligent society.

I’m not suggesting that hippies should get an unlimited subsidy to study for their entire life. In France (or some other European social-republic) , one of the best funded state education system sin the world, people with a degree are required to pay 1% extra tax for their rest of their lives, those with two degree’s are required to pay 2%.

Firstly, it means that people support education facilities for their entire working life, but at a fair rate. Secondly, this means people pay a rate that is far depending on the value of their education. If you got your degree in Science but ended up as a bar tender you pay f*** all, however if you invented something awesome and make millions upon millions a year, you pay a f***load.

With 100% education, you can still put timelines on it just like HECS (7 years (that’s two degrees and an honours degree)). However, it shouldn’t be a free ride. Students marks should be reported to centrelink and students who fail, anything, should be required to justify why they should continue to receive their scholarship.

What I cannot understand is why the Labor party would oppose full fee paying domestic students. These rich kids actually help lower the cost of education for the poor kids. Australians just love to cut the tall poppies down I suppose.

Because at state universities full fee domestic students would be students who couldn’t cut it academically to get in. I mean, you failed the entry requirement to get in, go to bond and suck s***. Secondly, because Universities cater to students who pay more. You see it all the time with international students producing s***ty s***ty work but getting graduated anyway.

education should not be free, by distorting the market like that you will create an overconsumption of education - imposing significant welfare costs on the rest of society. to have a socially efficient outcome (i.e. best outcome for the entire society) you should make the education market competitive and accessible to all - and allow the market to allocate resources accordingly. however there is some evidence to suggest education has positive externality effects, in that case perhaps subsidies (HECS is an example of that) are needed to ensure the market price reflects the social benefits.

the US has by far the best system of higher education. education should be accessible by all but by no means should be free. student loans should be available to anyone and everyone.

it's so stupid when people whinge about uni costs going up. of course they are going up. so are the payoffs of higher education. there have been so many studies in this area which show this time and time again. higher educaiton is just like any other investment, if the returns are growing faster than the costs you would be stupid to whinge about rising costs.

this is sort of getting off track but your argument doesn't take into account the intangible benefit of education even when it isn't necessarily geared towards any practical application.

for example there is an argument to suggest that someone studying philosophy has an intangible benefit to a society beyond what their eventual tax payments will account for. When you have unsubsidised education you get less people studying philsophy and art and more people studying accounting. That's all well and good but art does have a value to society that isn't direclty assessable (at least certainly not immediately) and i think society could definitely use more people thinking about the "why" of our lifestyle than how we should pay for it.

so who pays for it, if not the student?

I'm not against user pays to an extent.

I just think it's a shame that people look down on the study of some of the arts. I'm also not against full-fee paying domestic students provided there is no way they can get preferrential marking treatment.

Anyways so getting back onto the qld election, here is a question directed to those who didn't want to vote for beattie but were so disgusted with the Coalition they felt beattie was the lesser evil:

What one thing could the Coalition do in the next 3 years, which would make you consider voting for them?

education should not be free, by distorting the market like that you will create an overconsumption of education

Education shouldn't be free? Does that include primary and secondary funding?

Why do we draw the line at the end of secondary education? I mean in today’s society it is already becoming obvious that our traditional education systems isn’t enough to function in today’s world.

I don’t think that only Universities should be funded organisations, but all education, TAFE’s and Apprenticeship schemes, should be funded and provided for by the greater social whole.

- imposing significant welfare costs on the rest of society. to have a socially efficient outcome (i.e. best outcome for the entire society) you should make the education market competitive and accessible to all - and allow the market to allocate resources accordingly. however there is some evidence to suggest education has positive externality effects, in that case perhaps subsidies (HECS is an example of that) are needed to ensure the market price reflects the social benefits.

HECS isn’t a good system. Within HECS everybody pays 75% of each and every single students educational cost and the remaining cost is paid by the student at a later date. Welcome to the end of your education, your free to get a job asap because you have a large debt on your shoulders.

Look at the system that I mentioned before (I’m pretty sure it was France). It’s the best funded education system in the world, and it’s totally self supporting. It gets this by asking the people who gained the most out of the education to pony up and pay back a fair amount. While the people who got nothing or little out of their education pay very little for their education.

See the subtle difference? In HECS I pay a decent part out of my pay packet every fortnight (about $180 a week). At this rate, I should be finished paying my HECS debt off in 4 years. In the French system I pay much, much less each year but I continually fund it during the course of my career. In fact, assuming I keep getting paid more and more as time goes on, I would have ended up paying much more than a HECS student

it's so stupid when people whinge about uni costs going up.

Who, in this thread, has whinged about uni costs going up? I was complaining that the Australian Government, and many of its population don’t see it as a worthwhile investment for it’s own future and security.

of course they are going up. so are the payoffs of higher education.

That isn’t the reason that costs of education are going up. Excluding inflation (which is a considerable expense on budgets), the general cost of teaching students has gone up. I mean 50 years ago advanced maths was taught with a text book and a slide ruler, now math students are learning advanced maths on multi-thousand dollar computers.

there have been so many studies in this area which show this time and time again. higher educaiton is just like any other investment,

Sure, it is; that’s why I was willing to pay HECS. However, it disappoints me that my country doesn’t consider education a good enough investment to insure that Australia has first class facilities and that recent graduates get the best start they can.

infi ... you are a Liberal fan boy, through and through. If Lil Johny announced that turds were infact chocolate, you'd swallow it.

what's your point?

What one thing could the Coalition do in the next 3 years, which would make you consider voting for them?

It'll take much more than one thing.... much, much more, but as previously indicated by many in this thread, I'm sure selling themselves in their ads rather than attacking labor would be a good start.

What one thing could the Coalition do in the next 3 years, which would make you consider voting for them?

If every current politician in the coalition government quit, and all the new reps had no ties to the old ones, I might vote for them

Denny: i covered that point, go google the word 'externality'

Education shouldn't be free? Does that include primary and secondary funding?

i should have qualified that, i meant higher education.

Why do we draw the line at the end of secondary education? I mean in today’s society it is already becoming obvious that our traditional education systems isn’t enough to function in today’s world.

I don’t think that only Universities should be funded organisations, but all education, TAFE’s and Apprenticeship schemes, should be funded and provided for by the greater social whole.

well we'll have to agree to disagree. free markets are the most efficient way of allocating resources (this has been mathematically proven a long time ago by a guy called kenneth arrow. certain conditions must be held which may not always hold in reality but basically speaking markets operate far more efficiently than any other system in pretty much most if not all cases (edit: yes they can and do fail - won't go into it here though). by distorting the market through subsidising education you are imposing significant costs on the rest of society. pretty much everything i've said there is pretty hard to refute. now if you believe that the costs imposed on the rest of society are worth it, because state funded education is something society needs or is happy to pay for then so be it. i believe that the welfare costs imposed on the rest of society are not worth the outcome, though this sort of decision can only be decided through the political process as it subjective.

like i mentioned before there is the possiblity that education has a positive externality effect on society, in which case it may be necessary to subsidise it in some way to ensure a socialy efficient outcome.

HECS isn’t a good system. Within HECS everybody pays 75% of each and every single students educational cost and the remaining cost is paid by the student at a later date. Welcome to the end of your education, your free to get a job asap because you have a large debt on your shoulders.

i never said it was a good system. i simply said it was an example of a subsidy.

Who, in this thread, has whinged about uni costs going up? I was complaining that the Australian Government, and many of its population don’t see it as a worthwhile investment for it’s own future and security.

i meant that as a general statement, sorry if it seemed like it was directed at you.

That isn’t the reason that costs of education are going up. Excluding inflation (which is a considerable expense on budgets), the general cost of teaching students has gone up. I mean 50 years ago advanced maths was taught with a text book and a slide ruler, now math students are learning advanced maths on multi-thousand dollar computers.

never said anything to disagree with you there. simply said costs and benefits are both rising, with the benefits rising faster than the costs.

edit: bleh forgot html not bb quoting thingys. also clarifying the point on markets so lefties don't cry.


last edited by taggs at 17:46:53 11/Sep/06