Just found out php.net is redesigning their site.

Work in progress here:
http://prototype.php.net

Function documentation example: http://prototype.php.net/array_shift

Great, but instead can they hurry up and redesign PHP?

Documentation pages look quite nice

Edit: eww the search feature is all bingy

last edited by scuzzy at 14:05:02 27/Jan/12

Great, but instead can they hurry up and redesign PHP?

the amount of people i hear bitching about "how s*** php is" yet can't quantify their reasoning is mind boggling
the vast vast majority of people who use php will never meet or exceed its capabilities

there is always a better alternative, but people love ragging on php

Yes, but when I do it I'm just trolling :P~

Seriously though, i'd like to see PHP with strong types and structs/tables.

I'll happily argue against anyone who says there is a better web language than PHP (and can justify).

PHP redesign - looks nice, although will take quite a bit to get used to.

Oh noes some open source software doesn't work in the exact way you want!

Real programming happens in algorithms, not specific language features.

I'm not a fan of PHP but I'll happily admit that its ignorance and that I live in a fluffy safe MS developer's bubble that I have no desire to step out of.

Seriously though, i'd like to see PHP with strong types and structs/tables.

Both of these you can get around for the most part via OO.

Since you're answering questions simul, what's the language support for OO like these days? Is it fully featured or do you need to work around its limitations to implement design patterns?

thermite, all I want is for the compiler to tell me "hey, that data isn't quite what you think it is at compile-time".

And because
foo = {
{ a, b, c},
{ d, e, f},
{ g, h, i},
};

Is much quicker than
$blah[0]->first = 'a';
$blah[0]->second = 'b';
$blah[0]->third = 'c';
$blah[1]->first = 'd';
$blah[2]->second = 'e';
$blah[3]->third = 'f';
... etc...
Or any way you can implement it using methods.

I'd love to paste an example using the ircd Message struct, but don't have the source in front of me right at the moment.

My philosophies as a programmer prevent me from giving a s*** about how long it takes to assemble a data structure in order to display something on a web page. Invent a faster server.

I code for the quantum future of tomorrow.

last edited by thermite at 15:10:39 27/Jan/12

Since you're answering questions simul, what's the language support for OO like these days? Is it fully featured or do you need to work around its limitations to implement design patterns?

Its got pro's and con's, nothing that you can't get around. Supports inheritance and interfaces well enough, class/static functionality works as expected. Doesn't support multi-inheritance (which you can argue leads to bad class design), and because its weakly typed polymorphism isn't a huge deal (although can be enforced via typeOf).

So you don't give a s*** about performance and scalability as a programmer? And the kids are calling that a philosophy these days?

Its got pro's and con's, nothing that you can't get around. Supports inheritance and interfaces well enough, class/static functionality works as expected. Doesn't support multi-inheritance (which you can argue leads to bad class design), and because its weakly typed polymorphism isn't a huge deal (although can be enforced via typeOf).

I've always been a bit meh on multi-inheritance. C# doesn't support it either and its never made me cry.

I'm a really, really bad typer though, and its not getting any better. I sort of rely on strong typing and the ability to compile an app (php is interpreted, right?)

I am strongly against pre-emptive performance optimisation. And certainly making a fuss over the speed of assembling a small 3x3 data structure for a webpage.

I am strongly against pre-emptive performance optimisation.

What the hell does that mean?

And certainly making a fuss over the speed of assembling a small 3x3 data structure for a webpage.

Sloppy, imo anyway.

thermite, all I want is for the compiler to tell me "hey, that data isn't quite what you think it is at compile-time".

Definitely benefits of it, but due to it being interpretive I wouldn't want to lose speed every load forever over a bit more time spent debugging/defensive programming initially.

And because
foo = {
{ a, b, c},
{ d, e, f},
{ g, h, i},
};

Is much quicker than
$blah[0]->first = 'a';
$blah[0]->second = 'b';
$blah[0]->third = 'c';
$blah[1]->first = 'd';
$blah[2]->second = 'e';
$blah[3]->third = 'f';
... etc...
Or any way you can implement it using methods.

You can just create an associative array and cast it to an object, ala:

$data = array('firstname'=>'joe','lastname'=>'blogs);
$object = (object)$data;
echo $object->firstname;

User defined objects are a bit of a pain for typecasting but you can override the cast method for IDE support.

I'm a really, really bad typer though, and its not getting any better. I sort of rely on strong typing and the ability to compile an app (php is interpreted, right?)

Interpreted via apache etc, but there are compilers as well (Facebook is all built on PHP but via their own compiler (HipHop)).

What the hell does that mean?

Sorry it's called "Premature Optimization" by Knuth. It is defined as "optimizing before we know that we need to".

"Programmers waste enormous amounts of time thinking about, or worrying about, the speed of noncritical parts of their programs, and these attempts at efficiency actually have a strong negative impact when debugging and maintenance are considered. We should forget about small efficiencies, say about 97% of the time: premature optimization is the root of all evil. Yet we should not pass up our opportunities in that critical 3%."

Basically, don't bother with it when writing new code. Of course it does not mean the same thing as "write dumb code".

Just don't sweat over it, do what you have to, do it the right way, make it readable. Concentrate on performance when you identify that there is a problem.

Amen thermite Amen,

I have definitely wasted time in the past trying to optimize code, which ended yielding performance benefits which simply didn't justify the time spent.

Not that I am a particularly good coder or anything, but Knuth sounds right. Until you know there is a problem optimization could well be a waste of time.

I just hate the inconstancy like random ordering of needle/haystack on string functions, underscores or no underscores, array functions that return the array and others that are passed by reference.

My philosophies as a programmer prevent me from giving a s*** about how long it takes to assemble a data structure in order to display something on a web page. Invent a faster server.

I read this as "I don't care much about performance because none of the web applications I've been asked to create so far have had minimum performance requirements specified in the user acceptance criteria"

I'm so out of touch with the PHP community these days after selling my soul to microsoft (and loving it) :D

What is tool support like? Do people use MVC style patterns? Do a lot of people just do it like classic asp or perl (or naughty C#) where its just markup and logic all mixed into a wonderful mash?

How about PHP's caching model? I assume you use 3rd party libraries to do stuff like servers-side session state or caching or whatever?

What is tool support like?

Good, the wild west days are for the most part gone - usually only a few well recognised libraries for most things.

Do people use MVC style patterns?

Yep, most mainstream frameworks on top of PHP are MVC based (emulating rails convention > configuration) - but theres still the legacy wordpress/joomla mess around.

Do a lot of people just do it like classic asp or perl (or naughty C#) where its just markup and logic all mixed into a wonderful mash?

Nah templating systems (smarty etc) are fairly commonplace now at least for larger work, but still supports blended messes of s*** are still fine.

How about PHP's caching model? I assume you use 3rd party libraries to do stuff like servers-side session state or caching or whatever?

Its built in, but most MVC frameworks provide custom implementations (memcache, redis etc)

The redesign looks nice but not a massive change IMO, really.

Love PHP.

That all sounds pretty decent simul.