In various sports, different drugs are considered acceptable - cycling basically rejects anything period, but steroids on the other hand are considered a pretty normal thing in Rugby. Every sport is different.

A bit of background for those of you who don't know what blood doping is: Basically it's the practice providing a boost in clean red-blood cells, including the process of extracting an amount of 'clean' blood before an event, which is later re-introduced to an athletes bloodstream. Usually this is done in multi-day endurance events (such as the Tour de France), where over days the body starts to accumulate and struggle to clear things like lactic acid and other stuff that impedes performance, and the clean red blood cells take over to clear these unwanted chemicals. As you might be expecting, it's actually also quite a dangerous procedure.

It is NOT, as is commonly thought, the practice of just taking drugs (the term 'doping' might make people think it has something to do with marijuana or other illicits).


Accusations of blood doping have started to pop up around swimming at the Beijing Olympic games - which makes sense when you see some athletes competing six or more events over a period of days. However they're all independant of one another.

So, on to the philosophical debate:

In a multi-stage event, a clear advantage can be had by doing this. However in events where it's basically single heats, the only benefit you're gaining is recovery from other outside activity. You don't actually gain any performance from if you had been normally rested, other than bringing you back to a rested state quicker - so you don't gain any peak performance.

My question is therefore this:

Should athletes competing in definite different events (such as swimmers competing different disciplines) be permitted (or not be banned) from procedures such as blood doping which aid only in recovery?


My personal thoughts in this case go along the lines of if not blood doping, then should things like compression skins and recovery drinks also be banned? In cycling I'm certainly against it (and for seeing 3+ year bans), but in other sports, or when used for training I'm not so certain, as it doesn't actually provide an advantage.

I'm just after opinions here to see what people think of this situation.

have you got any evidence of this occurring? people have had medals stripped in cycling and athletics for it - i cant see it as being an allowed practice in olympic swimming..

Is it possible to even detect this in a blood test?

Doping is an unnatural procedure, so no.

It would be nice if everyone in the race is roughly on par with each other with oppurtunities to advance themselves in terms of what they wear, their diet, training etc... once it comes down to doing things that are potentially dangerous, a lot of athletes simply won't do it, it becomes unfair, so maybe none of them should do it.

the wiki says it is detectable but not through regular channels. interesting read

If this was a service that every single athlete had access to, including amatuers, then perhaps. However, it would make a mokery of every swimmer who has raced before them.

The new swimsuits are expensive and not accessible to every competitor, so there is already an unfair advantage. Expensive medical procedures would only widen that gap further.

The new swimsuits are expensive and not accessible to every competitor, so there is already an unfair advantage. Expensive medical procedures would only widen that gap further.

the suits cost roughly $500 each and must be replaced after every 10 swims. Speedo said they will provide a free suit to any olympic athlete who wanted to wear one.

anyone who thinks that guy who won the 100m free over emon isnt taking, or has taken something is dreaming. the fact is the testers cant keep up with the producers or performance enhancing drugs. blood doping like anything else is a performance enhancer and should be outlawed. suits can be bought by anyone, just because you can afford it doesnt mean its an unfair advantage.

you only have too look at Jones, the female US sprinter. the only reason she got into trouble was she came clean. not because she got caught. i have a few suspicions about phelps. the fact is hes from the US, they spend money on sports like they do on fuel. he wont get caught cause there isnt a test for what hes on yet.

Is it possible to even detect this in a blood test?

Blood Doping is only really detectable with a reference, and even then with enough recovery time haemoglobin levels return to normal anyway. It's detectable in events like the TdF because they know that noone's going to go from 0% to 50% and back to 0% in the space of a few days.

If you only took a single sample, then no, you can't really detect it, as you're not adding anything to your own blood.

Doping is an unnatural procedure, so no.

But so is taking say protein or vitamin supplements. So is wearing compression skins for recovery.

If this was a service that every single athlete had access to, including amatuers, then perhaps. However, it would make a mokery of every swimmer who has raced before them.

Well lets be fair, it is available to anyone who has access to a doctor or medical professional. Just as physiotherapy is available to someone who has an accident, or surgery. Surgery isn't natural - should we ban that too? The main difference here is we're talking a difference between a few days recovery and a few weeks/months. So why is surgery acceptable between events and doping not? Lets not forget I'm talking of events distinctly separate - ie, your result in the 100m freestyle has no bearing on your results in the 4x100 medley. Noone's getting surgery and competing the next day :)

The new swimsuits are expensive and not accessible to every competitor, so there is already an unfair advantage. Expensive medical procedures would only widen that gap further.

Yeah, I kinda agree with this. In Japan, Keirin (cycling) is like horse racing here in terms of popularity (and betting), and equipment is seriously standardized. Like basketballs, soccer balls, tyres in Formula 1 or much other equipment in large sports where a huge difference is to be made, maybe for international competition there needs standardization of swimsuits as well?

have you got any evidence of this occurring? people have had medals stripped in cycling and athletics for it - i cant see it as being an allowed practice in olympic swimming..

Yeah, people get bans in Cycling for it all the time. Can't name any athletics examples off the top of my head though. But my question is more 'why?' - and where the line should be drawn. Technically, I don't see the problem. Ethically I don't agree with it, but I can't technically agree with separations from other procedures and supplements which are considered acceptable by standards.

you only have too look at Jones, the female US sprinter. the only reason she got into trouble was she came clean. not because she got caught. i have a few suspicions about phelps. the fact is hes from the US, they spend money on sports like they do on fuel. he wont get caught cause there isnt a test for what hes on yet.

Yeah. It's like Lance. They've got blood samples from him from all tours stored away, and they did actually test one from one year and it came up positive for something they couldn't detect back then, but the media didn't say anything much about it. Gaurantee there'll be other cases, but noone wants to know Lance was on any kind of performance enhancers as it'd just be incredibly bad for the sport.

The same would be true of swimming with Phelps.

except for the fact that they do have a test for everything and phelps is the most tested athlete in the world

he's barely got any blood or piss left

edit: re anono

Yeah. I don't think Phelps is doping. But the accusations have more been pointed broadly at other swimmers, not Phelps.

yeah i'd be pretty bummed if lance turned out to be a drug cheat

lance is the man

If you watch the doco "bigger, faster, stronger" it's a really good watch. It tells how the americans had s***loads of positive tests which they didn't bust the athletes for.

Meanwhile, what the fuk is with all the world records being smashed in the swimming, especially the women. Is it just these new swim suits or what? I reckon they should never have allowed suits cos then you can't compare modern swimmers with the swimmers of previous eras.

Blood doping using EPO is detectable, even though EPO is naturally occurring in the body. What the biotech companies do is put a very small concentration of a marker chemical that would only be found in human if they took the EPO supplement. The cheat testers test for this chemical and bust the crap out of anyone found guilty.
That is an example of the ways that biotech companies are helping with the drug tests.

I'm all for having two versions of sports, drug-free and drugged up. The drugged up sports would filter a lot of the people who want to take performance enhancing drugs from the the drug free events. Sure, the fatality rate for drug-sports would be higher, but that's the price for wanting to go further then what is natural.

Only problem with that is, who would watch the drug-free sports when the drugged up sports are faster/stronger/ and just plain better?

"Speedo said they will provide a free suit to any olympic athlete who wanted to wear one"

Including equestrians?

you mean those homos from equestria?

I'm all for having two versions of sports, drug-free and drugged up. The drugged up sports would filter a lot of the people who want to take performance enhancing drugs from the the drug free events. Sure, the fatality rate for drug-sports would be higher, but that's the price for wanting to go further then what is natural.

Signed. IMO people should be able to do whatever they want to boost their performance as long as it doesn't harm or endanger others. Would be much more entertaining to watch, tradition be damned.

I'm all for having two versions of sports, drug-free and drugged up. The drugged up sports would filter a lot of the people who want to take performance enhancing drugs from the the drug free events. Sure, the fatality rate for drug-sports would be higher, but that's the price for wanting to go further then what is natural.

but would you want the same for all competition?

would the Aus online fps gaming scene accept a normal class and a hax class?

dumb idea...

IMO people should be able to do whatever they want to boost their performance as long as it doesn't harm or endanger others. Would be much more entertaining to watch, tradition be damned.

I've always suspected it, but now I'm sure. You're an idiot. God help me you've prolly overseen online comps =(

You're the one drawing an analogy between physical enhancement and exploiting software.

Using an aimbot in an FPS is cheating, like taking a shortcut through the middle of the track in a 400m sprint.

Performance enhancing drugs in athletics is more analogous to loading up on jolt and beta blockers before a game of counterstrike.

By all means argue with me, but snide personal attacks are uncalled for.

ban him the c***s a f*****

I'm all for having two versions of sports, drug-free and drugged up. The drugged up sports would filter a lot of the people who want to take performance enhancing drugs from the the drug free events. Sure, the fatality rate for drug-sports would be higher, but that's the price for wanting to go further then what is natural.

This would only work if they had 100% accurate tests or all drugs, and if you had that you may as well only have drug free sports.
Why? Well because you'll have guys who want to win the drug free section, but take drugs to do it... the exact same situation we have now.

yeah i'd be pretty bummed if lance turned out to be a drug cheat

lance is the man

Of course he did.

He's still the man though.

By all means argue with me, but snide personal attacks are uncalled for.

yeah I guess I just chose you out of all the admins who I've always felt turned a blind eye to what was so obvious to some of us.


and that I just never really liked ya.


never met you in rl though :/

koopz is on an ice bender tonite, posting up a storm!

posting up a storm!

I prefer the term 'spam'


I'll be going hard in the TOG et:qw Pro Mod 2 vs 2 comp in a couple of hours if anyone cares to watch me in my usual nervous unedited form

yeah I guess I just chose you out of all the admins who I've always felt turned a blind eye to what was so obvious to some of us.

go on...

dont encourage him. its like Loki v2.0

would the Aus online fps gaming scene accept a normal class and a hax class?

I would totally watch a hax class FPS comp, would be hilarious watching everyone seeing each other through walls and never missing a shot and all the s*** they can do with hax these days. As long as everyone is playing by the same rules I reckon it would be really entertaining!

lol insom, you are being sarcastic right? please tell me you are, other wise someone pinch him, hes dreaming.

They do NOT have test for every performance enhancing drug, or method. there is also certain levels of things that are allowed and scientist work on ways to allow the greatest performance enhancement before a meet to allow normal levels to return within guideline. But the benefits are still reaped by the athlete through prep. Your also dreaming if you think Phelps is clean, or lance. but there is next to no chance of any s*** sticking to them, they are a protected species as good old Lethal would say.

(PS i have been through the american college athletic system and know some of what goes on. i wasnt high enough to be privy to it all, but i had enough)

didn't think they had anything on lance, at least anything conclusive

they don't have anything on phelps

dreaming or not there's this little thing called evidence

except for the fact that they do have a test for everything and phelps is the most tested athlete in the world

Definitely one of the most naiive things I've heard in a long while.

call me naive when they bust him

I don't care about Phelps, I'm as much for innocent until proven guilty as you are, I was more commenting on the first part.

fair enough

i think we were talking about the likelihood that a drug cheat would get busted, which is not the same thing as there being a test for something

the test still has to be done at the right time etc

phelps just happens to be tested more frequently than most

so biology peeps, what kinds of substance are they completely unable to test for?

even the F1 imposes limits on the machines that can be used to race to make sure the playing field is even.

let's get back to the ATHLETE'S SKILLS FFS

If it's a dangerous thing to do, then I think its just downright stupid to risk your health or potentialy your life for something stupid like a sporting event. whatever the drug. However i'm sure i'm not the only one who would love to see an event that had nothing but high people competing. Lets have some cycling event where all the people are stoned on weed, they'd all make detours to mcdonalds or dominoes.

Hahah. Feed zones every 15km.

so biology peeps, what kinds of substance are they completely unable to test for?

There are plenty of drugs that are directly untestable for various reasons, however as I mentioned before the biotech companies that supply these drugs (usually for medical reasons) include tracers that can be tested for.

However the market is big enough and dodgy enough to get unregistered biotech companies to make them for them. Bathtub biochemistry so to speak.

Tollaz0r! are you studying biotechnology at the moment?

didn't blood doping kill a few tour de france cyclists a few years back? like they died in their sleep or some s***?

There is def some dodgy s*** going down in the swimming. They just not getting caught.

i'm with dan. but i'd go further than biotech chemical advancements.. there should be biomechanics involved as well. atomic powered mutant supermen would be more fun to watch.

who gives a rat's arse who is the 'best' athlete or what country can train the most of them... what an anachronism.

sif greazy, biochemistry. Doing my final 3 subjects this semester.

nF, they can die during the race. Athletes under the influence of artificial EPO generate more red blood cells that increase the viscosity of their blood, slowing it down. They are very prone to dehydration and ironically oxygen depletion due to the slow movement of blood.

Erythropoietin's main effect isnt to generate more red blood cells. It's main activity is to inhibit cellular death (apoptosis), causing an acumulation of blood cells. It's currently being trialed to combat kidney disease etc.

It is involved in red blood cell production, but to a lesser extent than keeping the existing blood cells alive.

Sorry to get caught up in semantics.

Yer, I seem to remember such things being said. Still causes the high viscosity in blood tho.

f*** sake hacket beaten in the 1500 by a tunisian that has just returned from a doping ban. get f***ed.

Hey koopz, despite Dan's somewhat dubious taste in hair styles (still sporting that gel spike?), he's ok :)

also, IMO...

nF, they can die during the race. Athletes under the influence of artificial *snip*

That's just evolution at work mkay

"but steroids on the other hand are considered a pretty normal thing in Rugby. Every sport is different."

I'm sure a whole bunch of those meat heads are on the juice, but is it normal? that's a pretty outlandish call man.