Great article on SMH debunking the "Economy is only good because of the resources boom" line that is being thrown around this election.

The fact is that the first-rate economy is due to the political initiatives of Labor and Coalition governments over two decades and the majority of Australians who supported their policies. Without this, China's boom would have had little beneficial long-term effect in Australia.

Worth a read if you are interested in this kind of stuff.

In before howards a c*** and liberals are sleazy / rudd is a fag labor is for bogans.

yeah a we've had a strong domestic economy which has been fuelled by productivity growth - much of it attributable (at least partially) to micreconomic reform. economic rationalism wins again. but microeconomic reform has slowed over the last few years apart from work choices.

there's still vital reform needed in tax and welfare systems. current marginal tax rates still provide disincentives for work (flat tax + negative income tax for the win). i don't think either of the parties tax policies really cover any of the underlying problems. education needs an overhaul - school vouchers have worked wonders for lower socio-economic groups where they've been introduced in the states. water (edit: admittedly a state issue) is also quite f***ed, it really needs to be priced efficiently.

as always it seems we're just trying to pick the lesser of two retarded evils =( just my 0.02c

last edited by taggs at 23:14:36 23/Oct/07

kevin10

Education has the exact same problem as Health: the government spends money subsidising the cost of going private rather than investing in the public system.

by subsidising education (as with health) you get better services with less outlay, as in both cases the end users themselves pay for a large chunk of the services. also in both cases it takes a load off the public services/schools.

its win win win. drop the class envy s*** imo. both the school system and health system are run by state governments. the monies spent on funding private schools and private health are well spent. if public health and schools are failing thats the fault of the states. however, i don't think either are doing that bad to be honest.

aside from the fact that private providers are more efficient at delivering services.

public sector is slow and bloated - as is evidenced by the increasing trend of Austalians to choose to pay for their children's education v. free State education.

and who would seriously put the lives of their loved ones in the hands of public doctors, if they could afford private health care.

i dont even wanna join this debate.. it makes me cranky that the majority of austrlians are so short sighted about who put the ecomony in such a strong position along time ago

and the f*** arse government capatilises on the stupidity of australians and there take on finiance

gives me the s***s

infi steals money.

aside from the fact that private providers are more efficient at delivering services

i think in a genuine competitive market that is true, but i think in some industries private providers are more interested in shareholder return than competitive services

the keating/hawke government were the ones who set australia up to be the *success* that the libs have been taking credit for.

decentralised wage structures
removal of tariffs on imports
floating of the australian dollar

the last 2 are particularly important for the seemingly insulated economy we have.

the keating/hawke government were the ones who set australia up to be the *success* that the libs have been taking credit for.

true, but if you think the libs have been idle for the last 11 years you're an idiot.

gst, free trade agreements, increased productivity, awas, taking on unions, a massive reduction in government spending to bring about a surplus etc

both labor and the coalition in the last 2 governments have been quite progressive, compared to some pretty useless ones in the 70s, early 80s.

aw, i thought you were gonna talk fuel economy.

If you get really sick .... ICU sick ... you'll want to be public.

As for private school funding. If the government stops funding them and every kid in private enters the public system. Public schooling will collapse. And the government knows this. And if you factor in all the costs of running a state school. Government funding (state and federal combined) per student is vastly higher for a public student.

You want a "fair" system.
Move to a voucher based system, where parents receive an education voucher that can be cashed in at a private or public school and results in exactly the same funding at either. The difference being parents at private (may) pay extra to receive the private education. That said I think you'd find some private schools would be able to run just on the voucher.

And I use "fair" with ""'s because usually parents who send their kids to a private school are paying more taxes in the first place.

obes speaks the truth

i think in a genuine competitive market that is true, but i think in some industries private providers are more interested in shareholder return than competitive services

if your referring to education then why has the school voucher system (which works by stimulating competition between schools) worked so well in the states?

If you get really sick .... ICU sick ... you'll want to be public.

Why?

If you get really sick there is no option for private as a rule. You may get your private doctor but you will almost certainly be in a public hospital. Like it or not public hospitals have the best equipment, there just isn't enough of it to go around.

I've been a private health user for years and wouldn't dream of entering the public system unless was necessary. It costs me a bundle but I've got 3 kids and waiting in queues at public doesn't appeal to me. My wife had to get a hernia op earlier this year, waited 1 week to see surgeon and had surgery 3 days later, waiting time in public was over 12months. Worth every penny I say.

I agree with Obes on the voucher education system. I am sending my kids to private school, they have better facilities, happier staff and more opportunities. I'm not a private school kid myself but I can see the benefits of it today. I sent my first born to state school and was quite amazed at the sub-standard education he was receiving, we eventually supplemented his schooling with external tutoring. Next year he is off to private school. Not to say that this is the norm for state schools.....but I have been very disappointed with what I believed to be a good public school system.

Maybe your first born is just dumb.

taggs, the united states does not have a particularly strong education system so why would mirrorring their mistakes be of any interest to Australia?

because perhaps there are other unrelated issues with the us system.

just because its broken doesn't mean they don't have good ideas.

mistakes? what?

it doesn't matter whether they had a good education system or not. our public system isn't that brilliant either. school vouchers have shown to increase competition between schools, which means lower costs and higher quality outcomes. they've been introduced in a few different states iirc and it has increased the quality of the education provided. all school voucher do is align the incentives of the school system in such a way that they are encouraged to provide the outcomes that society wants. they have an incentive to lower costs as it means they make more money. they provide better education - means more students and hence more money.

you do realise that the states has one of the best (if not the best) tertiary education systems in the world as well. and one of the main reasons for that is competition. it has a large amount of private sector involvement, and if you check the top 50 undergrad and grad schools in the US i'm fairly sure there are a heap of private schools. the top 10 schools are pretty much all private iirc

last edited by taggs at 12:22:08 24/Oct/07

If you get really sick there is no option for private as a rule. You may get your private doctor but you will almost certainly be in a public hospital. Like it or not public hospitals have the best equipment, there just isn't enough of it to go around.

Are you kidding me? All my recent(ish) visits to an Emergency Dept have been straight to the Wesley. f*** going to a public. If it's truly life threatening where you just HAVE to go straight to the nearest hospital regardless, then your point is valid.

rudd eats earwax!!

You want a "fair" system.
Move to a voucher based system, where parents receive an education voucher that can be cashed in at a private or public school and results in exactly the same funding at either. The difference being parents at private (may) pay extra to receive the private education. That said I think you'd find some private schools would be able to run just on the voucher.

As it stands, the vast majority of parents, s***, the vast majority of Australians, don’t value education, and pass that lack of value onto their kids. Until that changes, it doesn’t matter how much money, or what kind of system is in place, public education will be flawed.

Stinky - was referring to ICU not just "I fell on the joystick while doing naked aerobics" type emergencies.

On what Mass was saying -

Public vs Private Education :

When we moved back to Australia by younger brother and I were put into a local public school, but after 12 months our parents decided to move us to private. When I finished highschool I wanted to continue to the local private highschool, partly because of my age and not wanting to leave friends, but I had also done some extension programs at the highschool, new the facilities and some of the teachers and thats the way I wanted to go.
Another public primary school opened up closed to our parent place so my brother ended up there, and wanted to continue through to the local public highschool with his friends etc. Hes doing his HSC at the moment, and I have to tell you the standard of student care, attention, education and facilities is VASTLY different. He has had little assistance and I would say has been neglected by his school and teachers. In his multimedia class when doing graphics rendering and site design, hes been teaching the god damn class.
As Mass said, a lower standard may not be true for all public schools, but it certainly was in our experience.
Im going back to uni next year to do a teaching degree, and Ive already tee-ed up ACU to do my Religious Education certificate externally because I know Im going to want to work in private schoools over public.

With private health care - it may cost a bit but it is worth every cent. Ive had alot of various health problems over the years, and its always reassuring to know you dont need to wait when you need surgery etc. Im going in on the 8th of November, only had to wait a month as apposed to 9 or something.
Having said that, Ive had a couple of emergencies in the last 18 months and for locality reasons was taken to the RBH on both counts. I know I was getting better treatment because of my cover ie a room in the emergency ward over being on a bed in the hallway, but overall they have always been great and really helpful.

Overall Im guessing I support the private health and education systems, and the goverment needs to too.

/rant.

by subsidising education...you get better services with less outlay

If that's true, why does the private sector get more government funding per student than the public system? Surely if the private sector provides better services for less outlay, funding should be at an equal rate at the very least.

If that's true, why does the private sector get more government funding per student than the public system?

The private sector gets more Commonwealth funding than the public sector. Public schooling is a State responsibility.

From the Schools Commission Act (1973):

(4) In the exercise of its functions, the Commission shall have regard to such
matters as are relevant, including the need for improving primary and
secondary educational facilities in Australia and of providing increased and
equal opportunities for education in government and non-government schools in
Australia and the need for ensuring that the facilities provided in all
schools in Australia, whether government or non-government, are of the highest
standard, and, in particular, shall have regard to-

(a) the primary obligation, in relation to education, for governments to
provide and maintain government school systems that are of the highest
standard and are open, without fees or religious tests, to all
children;

The Schools Commission Act was integrated into the Employment, Education and Training Act (1988) when the Schools Commission was replaced by the Schools Council. Howard abolished the Schools Council in 1999, and now 31% of Federal funding goes to public education (which has 70% of enrolments). So yeah, let's blame the State government.

governments/systems - as in State governments and systems. In the Australia Constitution, there is no reference to Commonwealth power over education. The doctrine of states rights means that if it ain't provided in the constitution as a Commonwealth power then it is a state power/responsibility.

That and you may have read/heard in the news recently of state resistance towards standardisation of State education curricula. This is because presently State Governments are in control of supplying and funding public education up to grade 12.

Get it yet?

I'm not debating the issue of the State being responsibile for funding. I'm trying to highlight that Howard pulled the rug out from under the State government by taking away funding. It's not like the QLD government can just pluck the extra money out of thin air.

throwing money at inefficient systems isn't the best way to fix problems.

edit: also the states are still charging stamp duty and s*** aren't they?!

last edited by taggs at 16:33:31 24/Oct/07

WTF is the GST? Pocket change?

Yeah, QLD gets enough of it even though it's economy has benifited from the mining boom unlike NSW and Victoria.

If that's true, why does the private sector get more government funding per student than the public system? Surely if the private sector provides better services for less outlay, funding should be at an equal rate at the very least.

its been covered before in several threads related to the last election when latham tried a class envy tactic which failed miserably when you looked at the facts. and as infi said you can't look at federal school funding in isolation. states naturally are responsible for most services with the exception of welfare maybe, so if public schools are failing they need to take the blame.

the queensland government isn't exactly lacking in funds, though they are spending big on infrastructure. so i doubt its a lack of funds, i'd say its a lack of ideas more than anything.

As a public servant, I've got to say that the way funding works within government departments is, well, f***ed.

Basically, government divisions aim to spend exactly (or over!) their alloted budget, because government departments that produce a surplus tend to get less funding in future. So let's break that down... government departments get PENALISED for trying to be more efficient. If a great business wizz gets behind the reins on the business side in government and starts finding ways to stop heamorrhaging money, not even as far as cutting costs but just finding a way to reduce cash wastage, the government body risks being punished with reduced funding.

From what I've seen, when government departments do work for other departments they wil charge under the cost price of what it costs to do. They go to great lengths to avoid raising any revenue. It goes back to the whole surplus fear, and making a profit on anything will attract the attention of internal auditors. So if some plucky young chap finds a way to make a bit of extra funds for their department, they get scrutinised.

Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the government departments themselves. It's just a survival mechanism to protect them from higher powers. The safest way for them to do business is to piss money they don't need NOW away so they can cut costs and come up with the funds later if needed.

If that's true, why does the private sector get more government funding per student than the public system?

Becuase it's not true ?

The facts
PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS GET MORE TAX DOLLARS THEN PRIVATE
Private school student get more Federal funding, yes.
But! Public student get more significantly more combined (state and federal) funding.

If you get really sick .... ICU sick ... you'll want to be public.



Why?

Becuase they have unlimited funds and they will throw it all at a single patient and they have alll the gear eg. Is there even a private hospital with a hyperbaric unit in Queensland ? If you have a chest/heart problem. You want to be at the Prince Charles, Not Brisbane Private or even Holy Spirit North Side.

Not all private hospitals are better. My grandfather was very poorly treated at a private when he got congestive heart failure. Another friend at a private hospital who was acutely alergic to ibuprofen (and it was written on their chart) got given said ibuprofen when they were getting the knee reconstructed ... not once ... but twice ... private does not mean better, it does mean quicker in some cases.

If you aren't "interesting", or aren't extremely critical or you are elective, then yeah you want to be private (for speed/convience reasons).

Finally why?

My brother, sister and girlfriend are all nurses (RNs), and have worked both private and public and they say "if you get really sick go public"... preferrably as a private patient in a public hospital. (and they all say you don't want to get sick north of Nambour)

i second everything Obes has said in this thread. In this thread only. But he is right, Private Schools get more funding from federal than the state schools do, cos they are STATE schools and get a s***load more funding from the state as is their responsibility. At the end of the day, state schools get far more tax dollars than private.

Also my mum was an RN. She has never seen any point in private, as she says you only need a hospital if you're really sick, and if you're really sick, you'll be wanting public cos thats where all the best doctors are cos thats where all the best equipment is.

She has never seen any point in private

yeah, who needs elective surgery anyway right?

you can have elective surgery in the public system
itll just take 2 years instead of 1

I've been a private health user for years and wouldn't dream of entering the public system unless was necessary. It costs me a bundle but I've got 3 kids and waiting in queues at public doesn't appeal to me. My wife had to get a hernia op earlier this year, waited 1 week to see surgeon and had surgery 3 days later, waiting time in public was over 12months. Worth every penny I say.

one sample does not determine all scenarios.

one sample does not determine all scenarios.

The whole point of private health insurance is massively reduced waiting times. However that being said I've been booked into elective surgery through the public system three weeks after deciding to get the operation.

edit: also the states are still charging stamp duty and s*** aren't they?!

f*** yes what's the deal there?!?@#. It's like a there's a money tree in the back yard, GST AND Stamp duties. I thought the idea of GST was to scrap the stamp duties but of course why would they give up way to tax you ?.

Jayant Patel

in 1992 i needed to have an operation... i had no private health cover & was admitted to emergency of royal brisbane hospital. a doctor inspected me within 15mins, got xrays n a catscan & was prepped for surgery within the hour. approximately 3 hours later i woke up in the post-op ward but it only seemed like moments.

i guess my bolding proves beyond doubt that public health in brisbane is fine. fine.

you mean it was fine 15 years ago

i had a lol when i read 1992. thanks.

it sure was fine 15 years ago... it probably still is... i just don't wanna break a leg to find out. i could cite more recent cases that my relatives have experienced with minimal delays in the public system... however my point was more that a single instance might not be indicative of the whole system, no matter how ya bold your text.

never said it did, just chucked that there because hardware made some crazy generalisation about how long you have to wait. i think it's pretty much a given that private health cover means a metric f***-ton of time savings in most cases. sure you might get lucky with the public system but would you honestly want to risk it?

you can't honestly believe that the health system is at a similar level of quality compared to 15 years ago do you?

sure you might get lucky with the public system but would you honestly want to risk it?

most definitely. i am risking it as i still dont have private health cover.

you can't honestly believe that the health system is at a similar level of quality compared to 15 years ago do you?

no it's probably changed in the last 15years.

however my point was more that a single instance might not be indicative of the whole system, no matter how ya bold your text.

not even glow text?

well sure for glow text... nobody would lie in glowtext it just wouldnt be right. especially if each character was coloured in a gradient blend across the words... that'd be like, the purest form of fact.

Public health is good for real emergencies

werd.

Public health is good for real emergencies

you mean an emergency like a pregnent women having severe pains ?

last edited by ara at 12:32:49 25/Oct/07

Sucks to be in Sydney. Tho pregnant women in general get a rough time from EDs.

Also pregnancy and children ... Get the insurance! (at least 12months before hand)

PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS GET MORE TAX DOLLARS THEN PRIVATE

Sorry I can't find a more recent source, but here's some info from 2004:
http://i21.tinypic.com/18hfsh.png
If you've got conflicting data from a more recent source, I'd certainly like to see it.

we finally signed up for private health after petal broke her arm in melbourne and it took us 3 days before they could operate and we could come home

the work that got done was excellent, it was just the waiting that shat us off

ffs, we went to the hospital 3am sunday morning, there was no one there and we still sat around for 3 hours, before getting sent home, petal then had to go back at 8am, and she was there until nearly 3 in the arvo

man, i would have hated to be in the emergency room when it was busy . . . . .

Tael: how did you figure that?

looks to me like the private schools get almost $5billion from parents/community and just over $6billion from the state and federal governments.

total state + fed government funding per student =

$5.6k private schools
$8.4 public schools

looks pretty fair to me if you understand what the graph is actually saying

last edited by nF at 19:20:29 25/Oct/07

with education it doesn't matter whether public or private entities run the schools unless you are a hardcore statist or freemarketeer

all that matters is how much funding the government should provide

once you realize this vouchers are the best way of running things because it lets the best private and public entities run the schools

tael, so you are highlighting that 43% of the private school's revenue come from private sources ie. non-government. you aren't doing your arguement any good there.

Stamp Duty was never ever a part of the GST agreement. I hear this s*** so many times that the States have not fulfilled their GST Agreements. Well they have, every last one of them. They were only required to review Stamp Duty and a few other State based taxes. The rest were to go and they did. In effect to continue harping about Stamp Duty and the failure of States to remove it due to the GST is sheer bulls***.

BTW GST is not the sole source of funds from the Federal Government. Special Grants make up a huge component of funding to States and the Federal Government has been severely negligent in awarding Special Grants Funding which makes up the shortfall from the loss of State Taxes when GST was introduced. If you researched the topic you would come to the conclusion (fact) that the GST did not account for the total of all State Based Taxes thus when GST was introduced and the States removed those taxes that were part of the agreement it left the States short of revenue, thus the Federal Special Grants Funding arrangements we have in place today. Of which the Feds have completely politicised and done just about done SFA with it to help the States. The Feds consistently withhold these grants to apply pressure to the States. One fine example is University Funding and the recent debacle over AWA's (Julia Bishops remark, if you don't introduce AWA's then no funding). Also how long has the State Government been fighting with the Feds to release the Federal component of the funding money for the expansion of the Ipswich Motorway which was promised over 5 years ago by the Feds. Don't hold your breath.

hahaha, SFB is back. Only 3 days too late though, he could have shut down this thread before it festered into a hive of inaccuracies.

Stamp duty is a scourge on commercial activity and should be removed by the States as GST revenue has far outstripped projected growth in the wholesales sales tax model (I note that motor vehicle stamp duty was raised by the Qld Govt in this year's budget - so much for low tax state).

Of course the Feds are going to condition Federal education grants. It's Federal Money and they are elected to implement Federal policy. What a no brainer, and ALP would do the same to implement their workplace relations policies.

Total BS on the Ipswich Motorway, that $320m has been on offer by the Feds for years. It's just that the Qld Govt wouldn't pony up with their contribution.

All this against a backdrop of $12b in debt over the next 5 Qld budgets. WTF are they spending all this money on and why now and not in the previous 10 years of Beattie? Cos he did f***en nothing and built nothing.

PS I am a Liberal Party member. FYI!!!

I'm miffed about the stamp duty increase in 08 myself cos I'll be taking delivery of an expensive vehicle come february but when I look up the amounts the other states pay I think 'low tax state' is still a fair call in this context at least

Stamp duty is a scourge on commercial activity and should be removed by the States as GST revenue has far outstripped projected growth in the wholesales sales tax model (I note that motor vehicle stamp duty was raised by the Qld Govt in this year's budget - so much for low tax state).

You mustn't get out much from your Liberal Party Bunker and see the real world. The Wholesale Sales tax model was a Fed tax, not a State based tax. So how with the removal of a Wholesale Sales Tax benefit a State Government?

Of course the Feds are going to condition Federal education grants. It's Federal Money and they are elected to implement Federal policy. What a no brainer, and ALP would do the same to implement their workplace relations policies.

Threats are usually considered with disdain by most thinking people. A carrot has a lot more going for it than a bullet to the head. Even so, to threaten to withhold funding to Higher Education (an essential service) unless you meet my political and ideological driven agenda is obscene no matter which parties act this way. If Labor did it I'd criticise them too. How about being man enough infi and criticise where criticism is due or is it to hard for you to be impartial, unbiased and thus critical of your own party? Are you just a Liberal Sheep?

Total BS on the Ipswich Motorway, that $320m has been on offer by the Feds for years. It's just that the Qld Govt wouldn't pony up with their contribution.

What bollocks. The State Government is already been upgrading sections of the Ipswich Motorway since 2004 with only State money. The Feds have yet to release any. The Feds only just proposed $2.3 Billion in March 2007 for upgrading Dinmore to Gailes and yet this too has still yet to hit the State Government Main Roads Department's coffers. You can claim all you want infi, the fact is the Feds have made many promises and delivered none on this topic.

All this against a backdrop of $12b in debt over the next 5 Qld budgets. WTF are they spending all this money on

Read the paper, the news web sites, the State Government web sites etc and find out. It's not hard and if you did then you'd be remarkably surprised what they have built under Beattie and what they have planned in the next 5 years and it has been and is currently all infrastructure which over time the ROI is so vastly high that any concern with the initial investment is totally disingenuous.

and why now and not in the previous 10 years of Beattie? Cos he did f***en nothing and built nothing.

Motorways, Bypasses, Ports, Rail and if you looked infi, many other things. But when you have one eye and it's permanently covered with a blue patch what more would one expect from you.

PS I am a Liberal Party member. FYI!!!

No kidding! Who would have known? I suppose you also approve of Santo Santoro and all his dealings and awarding of contracts in his portfolio were all above board and he's a really nice guy. Now that wouldn't have been Santo favouring political mates now would it?

No one in the Liberal Party could ever be underhanded and have meetings with undesirables, like Brian Burke, only Labor members are corrupt, incompetent and criminal. Just ask Peter Reith, Michael Woolridge, Santo Santoro, Amanda Vanstone, Phillip Ruddock and now what's the WA Minister that resigned this year over dealings with undesirables, let me think..........

last edited by Some Fat Bastard at 17:17:16 26/Oct/07

Motorways, Bypasses, Ports, Rail

wth are you talking about. not a single metre of rail was laid under Beattie afaik. Dalrymple permanently chocked up. Gateway Motorway duplication will be over capacity by the time it's built. Queensland Urban rail network rolling stock obselete and overcrowded forcing stress onto the Bus Network. Gold Coast Rail Line overcrowded.

Forcing Brisbane City Council to pay for expensive tunnel and road upgrades because the State are broke.

The State Government is a joke when it comes to infrastructure and that's just the transport I've covered.

I once was a public servant but realised if you stay one for too long you begin to believe the bulls***. Looks like you're already there.

also *cough* Merri Rose, Gordon Nuttall, Pat Purcell *cough*

SFB Beattie has done no where near enough for the last 8 years for infrastructure. he whined about people coming every week, but didn't do anything to pre-empt this - only some in typical Beattie reaction. Roads, health, power, water are all in tatters. I don't know how the state coalition would have done, (and I dread to think in their current condition) but Beattie's done rather fricken poorly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't housing stamp duty a state model? They haven't reduced that at all, and the housing market is through the roof. The state is RAKING it in with that. The feds have asked states to lower those stamp duty taxes to help with the housing affordability but to my knowledge nothing has been done.

Stamp duty the Qld government saps:
- Transfers of Queensland property (e.g. land, business acquisitions and shares)
- Motor vehicle registrations and transfers
- Mortgages
- Leases
- Dealings associated with trusts
- Hiring and instalment purchase agreements
- Insurance policies
- Credit card transactions

So it's not all feds holding doing all the pooping on the common man, your labor bum chums in state are doing it too.

However - if it's the state government keeping taxes up because feds aren't coughing up the change, or if it's the feds not coughing up the change because the states aren't dropping taxes, I don't know. All I'm saying is, it's rooted on all levels of government, on both sides.

just quickly, going off infi:

more policitians in Beattie's party have appeared in court involved in corruption than Sir Joh's crew did.

wth are you talking about. not a single metre of rail was laid under Beattie afaik. Dalrymple permanently chocked up.

You seem to forget infi who actually proposed the Gold Coast rail link and did the design and feasibility, it was GOSS. He was booted out prior to the commencement of the construction of the rail link. All because people didn't want an extra road link to the Gold Coast going through bayside bushland. Now if you want to criticise infi, how about criticising some of those blue eyed voters who voted against the infrastructure proposed by Goss just for political shortsighted gain.

Add to this the fact the Labor State Government has just budgeted hundreds of millions to extend the Rail Link and increase it's rapidity. But that can't be good, Labor thought of it.

Gateway Motorway duplication will be over capacity by the time it's built. Queensland Urban rail network rolling stock obselete and overcrowded forcing stress onto the Bus Network. Gold Coast Rail Line overcrowded.

You seem to forget when the GC Motorway was built and under which State Government. You seem to not be noticing the amount of construction already occurring on the Gateway. BTW which State Government designed and built the Gateway with so little, as you say, capacity for the future in the first place? Who built the SE Freeway with virtually no allowance for capacity increase? Let me think, Oh that's right National/Liberal State Governments. How ironic.

Forcing Brisbane City Council to pay for expensive tunnel and road upgrades because they are broke.

Other than the BCC, the State Government is, as is the Federal Government, are contributing significantly to the tunnels funding, ya git. You know for someone quick to criticise the Labor State Government over infrastructure, what the frig has the Feds done in 11 years. All these new, finally, announcements of Infrastructure funding have only come out in an election year 11 years after they were first voted in and many years after they were needed.

The State Government is a joke when it comes to infrastructure and that's just the transport I've covered.

You're an idiot infi, through and through. Here's a little excerpt from the 2004 budget papers that will help clear up some things for you infi. Hopefully you'll be a little informed next time.

Minister for Transport & Main Roads
The Honourable Paul Lucas

Tuesday, June 15, 2004

RECORD $4B BUDGET FOR QLD TRANSPORT & MAIN ROADS

A record $4 billion Transport and Main Roads operating budget will enable the Beattie Government to continue establishing a world class transport network in Queensland.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Paul Lucas said major projects in the 2004-05 portfolio budget included the Tugun Bypass, the Inner Northern Busway, public transport Integrated Ticketing System and the Mount Lindesay Highway duplication.

Mr Lucas said Queensland's rail network would also get a major boost with new rail infrastructure including new coal lines and track upgrades in Central Queensland.

He said this year's budget was made up of $1.7 billion for Queensland Transport and $2.3 billion for Main Roads - a significant 14% increase on last year's $3.5 billion Transport and Main Roads budget.

In addition to its unmatched commitment to rail, road and public transport infrastructure provision throughout Queensland under programs such as the $650 million Smart State Building Fund, Mr Lucas said the Beattie Government had strongly recognised the need to start planning and delivering on transport and roads needs for the future.

"That's why this Budget provides a further commitment to transport network infrastructure, with a $1.1 billion boost in new money over four years for road and transport infrastructure programs," Mr Lucas said.

Of the $1.1 billion, $572.2 million would be spent under Queensland Transport's Improved Transport Infrastructure Program including:

* $342.2 million for CityTrain rail improvements - starting in 2005-06 - including rail lines and station upgrades, track duplication and security enhancements; * $200 million for bus programs - including the continuation of the Inner Northern Busway with new bus stations at the Royal Children's Hospital and Normanby and construction of the Queen Street bus station to Roma Street extension; * $30 million for improvements to rail customer and safety facilities.

The additional transport network funding also includes the new $571 million Arterial Roads Infrastructure Package, to deliver key roads capital projects.

Projects to be funded under the package include construction of Stage 2 of the Caboolture Northern Bypass; a new two-lane link between Caloundra and Mooloolaba; four-laning works on the Sunshine Motorway between Maroochydore Road and Pacific Paradise (including duplication of the Maroochy River Bridge); extension of four-laning of the Mt Lindesay Highway to Rosia Road; four-laning of the Gold Coast Highway between Robert and Stevens Streets; and four-laning of the Nerang-Broadbeach Road from Allambe Cemetery to Ross Street.

Mr Lucas said the Beattie Government had committed an additional $1.1 billion to Queensland roads since the last budget through:

* extra funds of $186.3 million over three years as part of the Smart State Building Fund announced by the State Government in December 2003 to accelerate various road projects throughout Queensland; * a further $301 million committed in the 2004 State election for a range of key initiatives, namely: * a further $120 million for the $360 million Tugun Bypass project ($240 million State Government/$120 million Federal Government); * $120 million to construct Stage 1 of the Centenary Highway extension from Springfield to Ripley Road; * $35 million to construct the Pacific Paradise interchange on the Sunshine Motorway; * $26 million for construction of the Yeppoon Western bypass, upgrade of Yeppoon - Tanby Road and associated road demaining package.

"This Budget now provides a further $571 million for Queensland roads over the next four years under the Arterial Roads Infrastructure Package," Mr Lucas said.

"This is a Budget that ensures transport planning and infrastructure remain top Beattie Government priorities, so that we continue to meet the needs of Australia's fastest-growing state.

"This additional infrastructure funding is indicative of this Government's deep commitment to transport and will underpin Queensland's continuing strength as the economic growth centre of Australia."

2004-05 budget highlights for Queensland Transport and Main Roads include:

 $769 million for planning, construction and maintenance of other State-controlled roads;  $622 million for rail capital outlays;  A record $351.1 million for capital works by port authorities across the State;  $260 million for other roads programs;  $184 million from the federal government for national highways;  $61 million in subsidies to local governments as part of Main Roads' Transport Infrastructure Development Scheme (TIDS);  $35.9 million for Stage 2 of the new public transport Integrated Ticketing System.

Apart from the strong commitment to planning and infrastructure, Mr Lucas said the 2004-05 portfolio funding would stimulate jobs growth, particularly in Queensland's regions.

"This record expenditure on roads alone will provide jobs for 17,500 workers employed in road construction and other industries and will stimulate economic development across Queensland," Mr Lucas said.

"The Government has listened to the needs and wishes of Queenslanders at Community Cabinets and in extensive public consultation on local projects.

"This is a State Budget which underpins the Government's on-going commitment to establish a world-class transport network in Queensland, while at the same time satisfying the needs of commuters and motorists.

"Both Queensland Transport and Main Roads are committed to providing world class services, infrastructure and technology, and certainly this Budget and the initiatives outlined today strongly support this objective."

Mr Lucas said the Beattie Government had also cemented its commitment to regional Queensland through a stream of major initiatives.

Among regional funding and initiatives in 2004-05, Mr Lucas said more than $210 million of the record $351.1 million in ports capital spending would be undertaken in regional centres, to enhance trade and employment opportunities and operational efficiencies.

He said extensive regional planning had also featured strongly in the Main Roads and Queensland Transport budgets for major infrastructure works such as the Tugun Bypass, Sunshine Motorway upgrade, Cairns Cityport project, major coal rail line and infrastructure development and the Douglas Arterial in Townsville.

Media contact - Alison Smith 3237 1947 or Paul Childs 3237 1942

*** A short summary of regional highlights are attached ***

REGIONAL HIGHLIGHTS OF THE 2004/05 BUDGET INCLUDE:

South East Region

* $23.6 million in federal funding to complete concept planning and make a start on priority interim safety works on the Ipswich Motorway, at a total estimated cost of $66 million; * $22.6 million towards construction of the Tugun Bypass along a route west of Coolangatta Airport, as part of total project funding of $360 million, including $120 million from the Australian Government; * $19 million to complete the duplication of the Mount Lindesay Highway between Middle Road and Green Road and Fedrick Streets in 2004-05 and $1.5 million to start work on the extension of four-laning of the Mt Lindesay Highway to Rosia Road; * $17.7 million for an upgrade of track infrastructure on the Citytrain network along with a further $18 million for rollingstock and station upgrades, as part of the Smart State Building Fund. The work includes design and construction of the Salisbury to Kuraby third track and Ormeau to Robina second track; * $15 million under the Improved Transport Infrastructure Program to deliver high quality bus stations at major centres, improve bus access and bus stops at strategic points within the network, and undertake studies to identify potential improvements to public transport infrastructure in the region; * $14.3 million towards the continuation of the duplication of the Sunshine Motorway between Mooloolaba and Maroochydore Roads; * $12 million to start the planning and construction of the Queen Street Bus Station to Roma Street extension of the Inner Northern Busway. Funded under the Improved Transport Infrastructure Program, the initiative will allow buses to directly link from the recently-completed sections of the INB to the city centre. Southern Region

*$13.7 million for 11 new 4000 class diesel electric locomotives, to be built in Maryborough, for operation on the coal network on the Moura and Blackwater rail system. The project - which has a total value of $64 million - is expected to be completed in 2005-06;

* $5 million towards the upgrade of the Surat Basin Track between Dalby, Toowoomba, and Rosewood. The $15.9 million project - which is expected to be completed in 2007-08 - involves track upgrades for the haulage of coal between the Surat Basin and the Port of Brisbane; * $3.7 million for rail track renewal work between Miles and Muckadilla, in western Queensland. The re-railing work is part of a $27.9 million project which is due to be completed in 2004-05. The work will improve track reliability, reduce maintenance costs and enable more efficient rail operations; * $3.5 million in federal funding to rehabilitate and widen the Sladeville Hill section of the Cunningham Highway between Eight Mile and Kellys Hill, north of Warwick; * The Bundaberg Port Authority will spend $667,000 on a range of property, plant and equipment to enhance operations, including the Sea Scallop Project and expenditure on a conveyor system and sand wash; * $250,000 for a new boat ramp on the Burrum River at Howard for recreational boating. Funded under the Boating Infrastructure Capital Program, the project is expected to be completed in 2005 and satisfies an election commitment. Central Region

* $194.8 million in rail infrastructure works associated with new coal projects in Central Queensland. Funded under the Coal Infrastructure Project, the work includes the construction of the Rolleston spur line; * $102.2 million to expand port facilities at Gladstone including work on the RG Tanna coal terminal, development of Berth 3 and Stockpile 16 and structural works at Barney Point and Auckland Point; * $3.6 million as part of a total $26 million package of works for construction of the Yeppoon Western bypass, upgrade of Yeppoon - Tanby Road and associated road demaining; * $3.3 million to realign two lanes over 10.4km on the Tannyfoil section of the Blackwater-Rolleston Road; * $2 million as part of total Government funding of $6 million to begin lane widening on the Mackay - Bucasia Road between George Fordyce Drive and Golf Links roundabout; * $1 million to duplicate from two to four lanes at Briffney roundabout-Chapman Drive on the Dawson Highway between Gladstone and Biloela. Northern Region

* The Cairns Port Authority will spend $75.2 million on a range of property, plant and equipment activities, including the Cairns Cityport Wharf St upgrade, the Cairns Seaport Surebeam facility and $34.3 million for checked bag security screening equipment at the airport; * $17.1 million to complete the construction of the Douglas Arterial in Townsville between University Road and Upper Ross River Road to a new sealed two-lane standard; * $17 million to be spent on an upgrade of the coal electric locomotive fleet, with the work to be undertaken in Townsville. Funded under the CFS Loco Fleet Upgrade Project, $59.3 million of the project's total $88 million cost is to be spent in Townsville. The project is expected to be completed in 2005-06; * $7.1 million for the construction to a new sealed two-lane standard on the Hervey's Range Developmental Road at Ella Creek, west of Townsville; * On the Cooktown Developmental Road, $3.2 million to construct to seal standard between Little Annan River and Scrubby Creek; and $3 million to construct to sealed standard between Scrubby Creek and Sackleys Hill.

I once was a public servant but realised if you stay one for too long you being to believe the bulls***. Looks like you're already there.

Sorry to burst your bubble infi, I have never been a public servant. Always worked in private enterprise. But now I can understand why you don't think.

*cough* Merri Rose, Gordon Nuttall, Pat Purcell *cough*

Couldn't give a rat's about them. If they do the crime they do the time, regardless of which party. However it appears you aren't willing to offer the same morals when it comes to your side of politics.

f*** you're a tool SFB.

^ coming from someone whose total brain cell count wouldn't even fill a petri dish I'll take that with a grain of salt.

PS I am a Liberal Party member. FYI!!!



No kidding! Who would have known? I suppose you also approve of Santo Santoro and all his dealings and awarding of contracts in his portfolio were all above board and he's a really nice guy. Now that wouldn't have been Santo favouring political mates now would it?

haha, gold!!!!

info and santo are super buddies!!!

That budget release stated the money was to
"continue establishing a world class transport network in Queensland."

I think in order to continue, you at first need to START. Something beattie failed to do, in all his years in his office.

yeah Beattie was a big subscriber to media releases meaning more than actual capital works occuring.

no point in hiding my affiliations... just being honest.

last edited by infi at 19:08:57 26/Oct/07

Here's a little excerpt from the 2004 budget papers

see i think this is your problem SFB. you say little but spam big. you need to be better at getting your point across with less words. your noise to traffic ratio is way off.

btw, are you associated with any political party or union?

blackmail, bribery, assault? who does that apply to in the federal govt?

the current one or the one thats just about to be elected?

current one

see i think this is your problem SFB. you say little but spam big. you need to be better at getting your point across with less words. your noise to traffic ratio is way off.

btw, are you associated with any political party or union?

Being a member of a union means nothing. eg. nurses join the union if only for legal protections.

The 2 top people in the teachers union branch at work up until 2 years ago, were actually fully paid up members of the liberal party. ie. Union Officals and member of the Liberal party !!!! zomg the sky is falling.

(I have no idea how that works, but its the truth).

Being a member of a profesional assosciation or a union is not a sign of anything, to assume it is is exactly what the libs are hoping to trick weak minded Australians into.

those crazy libs

Being a member of a union means nothing. eg. nurses join the union if only for legal protections.

hah, way to go on the defensive. it was a question about affiliations. you don't think it was a valid question to ask after his comments?

obes, are you a member of the labor party or a union?

i think hes a member of a guild does that count?

Actually ara I'm not ... ps. worked out how to our voting system works yet ?

Being a member of party is a valid question.

Being a member of a union isn't. People don't join a union because they vote for a certain party. They join them for all sorts of reasons from its a workplace expectation to its cheap legal protection from being sued in a high risk job. eg. Any nurse pretty much is in a union.. most teachers are.

As evidence I provide the fact that our 2 union officals at work were liberal party members...

Or are you suggesting every uni student out there votes Labor because they are all union members ?

But what about professional associations do they count ? eg. the AMA is basically a union.

Or are you suggesting every uni student out there votes Labor because they are all union members ?

compulsory student unionism isn't around anymore. i would now doubt 100% of uni students are in unions any longer.

Or are you suggesting every uni student out there votes Labor because they are all union members ?

Thanks to the Libs, Uni Students arn't forced to join some bulls*** Student Union any more.

So many aren't in a Union.

and why would you be?

they only exist to support leftish causes and the facilities that 95% the student population use isn't subsidised anyway (quild bar at qut for instance)

ph33r my fear campaign because it is based on factoids

maybe they should have called it a fact campaign, and the facts are what are scaring people?

lol hands up who read SFB's post

Or are you suggesting every uni student out there votes Labor because they are all union members ?

Although, to be honest, more people in those demographics do vote labor.

I'm not sure why anybody would want to vote for John Howard. I want a political leader who's good at lying. I don't want to sit around at home and say "HOLY s***, our PM just got caught out lying ... again!" any more. I don't care if he does lie to the Australian public, but he has to be good enough to not get caught.

Rudd gets caught lying all the time.

He doesn't even know his own f***ing policies most of the time.

And he looks like Elmer Fudd.

shutup c***

are you even registered to vote?

Not 18, so I can make all the stupid crazy allegations I want, not like it matters.

Not 18

So much about you just made sense to me c***.