with potential implications for any forum...

Whirlpool founder Simon Wright is being sued by accounting software firm 2Clix Australia Pty Ltd (ACN 118 044 198) for alleged "injurious falsehood".

The Statement of Claim from the company alleges that Simon Wright allowed statements "relating to the Plaintiff and its software product that are both false and malicious" to be published on the Whirlpool forums.

2Clix is suing for at least $150,000 (plus costs), and is demanding that two forum threads be removed from the site.

On their front page
Related forum thread.

Hopefully it doesn't succeed or it could mean a need for greater vigilance of users posts by all forum moderators. The implication being that moderators are responsible for their posters comments. What's next suing an ISP for a forum being hosted on its network which had a post about "ya mum" ?

Obes, your mum said to say hi.

which first?

this sarx large

it should be my right to come here or anywhere there is a forum and stay stuff that i feel like

even if its not true

This looks like the original thread that caused the s*** fyi

imo by 2clix doing this legal axn bs they have given themselves more bad publicity than a whingy wp thread would have ever done.

Good one Idol, just get QGL shut down why don't you!!!!

The heart of Injurious Falsehood is that the statement if false - as the name suggest. If WP can establish the statements were true, or statements of opinion (rather than fact) they should be off the hook.

Another interesting issue will be the operators responsibility for the comments of members to the site. Not sure if this has been considered before anywhere

Yeah, just be careful what you say in here, or Trogdor will start breathing fire.

After reading through their legal submission, I think that maybe all but 2-3 of the posts they are mentioning are opinion. Really seems like this will be a fairly quick matter.

last edited by mongie at 11:58:04 12/Sep/07

Considering how many applications, tv shows, and other money making ventures we scrutinise on this forum (with serious inquisition), I'm surprised we're not all sued already

I wonder how sites like epinions.com get away without being harassed by law suits

last edited by Idol at 11:59:59 12/Sep/07

i agree strex

I mean i occasionaly cruise WP, but i had never seen this thread. Now I have and the information gleaned from that (which would never have filtered to me if their was no pending lawsuit) gives me an altered view on the aforementioned company.

News.com.au story link

Telstra sux, just throwing that out there.

that's not slander cos it can be proved.

I notice the thread that started it all is #2 in google if you type "2clix", bet that played a big part in it

Whirlpool is a regular knobfest at times. Too many have too much to say with so little upstairs. If they culled the wasted spaces there would be a core of about 200 users left. Then I'd consider it's forum worthy of it's reputation.

I actually have little sympathy. The mods should have realised that the comments made in that thread were becoming hysterical and had evolved into a witch hunt. The grievences should and could have been better dealt with in private with the said company. Whether that be through the users own legal aveues or through mediation with the company. It should never have come to publishing private emails on a public website and allowing them to stand. As far as I am concerned that's shoddy prefessionalism on Whirlpools behalf and in my opinion heresy for a public forum.

Many of the posters had nothing to do with the software company or it's products and yet sill felt the need to get on the bandwagon with absolutely no knowledge of the situation. All this crap "I'm an IT Professional, all of about 5 minutes, think this company should blow up". "How dare they release software with bugs, I never ever do. I'm a gun programmer.", would be tragic if it wasn't so laughable.

I have no comment on 2Clix and their products as I personally know jack about them as did three quarters of the posters. The posters with no personal or commercial involvement, like me, should have butted out.

Whether Whirlpool win or lose, the fact of the matter is the only ones to benefit are the legal eagles and their bank accounts. It could have all been handled far more professionally on all sides.

I am waiting for someone to make a wikipedia page about this

The thread only really blew up when their 'representative' turned up. Reminds me of the time gamedude sent esteemed representatives to this forum.

/goes back to lurking

didnt ocau get in trouble for slandering that dodgy pc selling mob? (sunlit?)

last edited by Spook at 14:44:05 12/Sep/07

Just sounds like the business owners got frustrated and angry and pulled the lawsuit card out without thinking of the consequences on their reputation.

none of it is slander, if anything its libel
slander is spoken, libel is written

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander_and_libel

thank you come again

Gotta love a legal smack down. Hope the judge does the same.

Also Trog from Whirlpool's wiki:

On September 11, 2007, it was announced that Simon Wright was the subject of a lawsuit by 2Clix Software relating to posts made by users in the Whirlpool forums and their opinion of the 2Clix products.[1] The case is pending before the Supreme Court of Queensland.

wait a minute, i thought they changed laws so that corporations couldn't sue for defamation, the new laws also make it so there is no disticntion between libel and slander, the only way they would even have a hope of even STARTING this suit is if they convince the trail judge if they are a "small buisiness." have a look at an overview of the new laws here:

http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html

tbis is bulls***, wouldn't this be similar to getting a bad software review in a pc magazine? or any company getting a bad review for any product?

the business proves their stupidity with this case imo.

heh how is it similar to that partyhat?
did you read the thread in question, and what a couple of people said? their comments were way beyond expressing an opinion.

I have no idea whether or not they have a case (but I presume they might have if it's gotten as far as it has) - but it's not as simple as 'lol what a dumb company omg lol free speech wtf lol'

Partyhat, PC Magazines don't have a habit of publishing private emails between two outside parties not directed at them unless given permission by the party who sent the email. Whirlpool allowed these to stand.

Besides in Magazines it tends to be generally one persons opinion without the "The software company should die" or "I know nothing about the subject/software but I'll post random bulls*** anyway" or "based on my review I'm going to tell everyone I know, which happens to be my dog and my pet rock, not to buy this software all over the world and this company sucks dogs balls". Stuff like this could be if anything grossly incorrect or grossly misrepresentative. People are known to hold grudges for less and paint companies in poor light without letting the facts stand in the way.

The comments got out of hand. Whether they be correct or not and whether they are enough to sue over, the point I'm making is Whirlpool handled this most unprofessionally. If you saw in other threads about ISP's when it got to the extent that this did they deleted the posts. In this case it appeared moreso double standards. Why I don't know but it surely was inconsistent. If you don't think so you only have to look at the threads about Wild Internet's demise and see the difference.

I read the threads and I got the impression the people posting knew what they were talking about. Also don't think it's any webmaster's responsibility to "handle" stuff "professionally" whatever the hell that means.

In fact I think by deleting posts they put themselves in a position where they are seen as the 'editors' of the 'publication' and are therefore responsible for what is included/excluded. Perhaps admins would be better off not interfering on matters of controversy and opinion, as they can effectively change the course of a discussion and be blamed for that too, etc..

Digg it!

I notice the thread that started it all is #2 in google if you type "2clix", bet that played a big part in it

yeah cause I google "2clix" everyday.

Edit: Not laughing at you idol, you may be partially right, I'm just laughing at the total bulls*** of the situation.

last edited by Martz at 16:06:10 12/Sep/07

yeah cause I google "2clix" everyday.

Well you aren't a prospective customer of 2clix software, are you.

Hehe i brought this up with my tutor today who told me she'd already spoken to the SMH regarding this. In her mind (and she is well published and experienced) the claim has little or no merit.

It would have to prove the statements were false, that they were made in malice, that 2Clix actually suffered damage in the form of monetary loss and, critically, that Wright had intended to cause 2Clix monetary loss by allowing the material to remain on the website.

"I don't think you could actually prove that for a web operator, that they personally intended the damage because of their malicious intention, especially when it's posted by a third party that they've got no relationship to,"

Idol, You mustn't have read some of the posts I did. Besides, people started posting private confidential emails on a pubic forum. In all other forums I've been to this is a no-no and ends up being deleted and in a lot of cases the user banned for some period of time. Whirlpool didn't do anything about them and let them stand. That is unprofessional. All these emails between customers and 2clix should have been left private and between the two parties.

Throughout the threads 2clix offered to take these matters further in private and offered further assistance to all and sundry in private. Not one of the protagaonists failed to take up this offer in any meaningful way. It didn't stop them airing their dirty linen. If anything a lot of posters acted unprofessionally in the approach they took.

Posts like these are bulls***

I have been working with 2Clix for more than 2 years “on and off”. I am not a qualified software technician, I know nothing about programming..........In conclusion this product should not even have made available on the market without at least another 2 years testing and tweeking! as the product definitely is not up to the standard they claim.

- in effect "I don't have a clue what I'm on about, but I'll make conclusions based on no actual qualifications and knowledge of the process", a bit like an electrician telling a biotechnologist how to create germ warfare and conclude he needs another two years of research to get it right.

If they aren't the same product, then there may be an issue with misleading and deceptive conduct by using the same testimonials.

- more accusations that can't be proven by anonymous users. Wow that must take balls.

A partnership with a company in a tax Haven? Its certainly something the ATO and ASIC look at very seriously and can involve criminal charges. I sincerely hope its being done for legitimate reasons.

- throwing accusations of legaility to undermines someones position in a debate is deplorable.

This is the only decent post amongst the whole fiasco:

John (jdubya),

No software is free from faults. Especially software as complex as 2Clix.

No, I don't work for 2Clix. I never have. I don't have shares. I don't use 2Clix, never have. I have no family, friend or anyone I know who work for 2Clix or have any sort of vested interest in 2Clix.

I'm a software developer - for a competitor of 2Clix. No matter how much effort developers put into releasing a bug-free product, there will always be bugs.

I know nothing about 2Clix. I know about developing commerical ERP solutions - packaged solutions. It's tough, and nobody but a developer could really appreciate this.

How's this for an example : Today, I learnt a facet of the ERP software I work on has a bug introduced because of a Windows update - critical patch to the MSXML Parser - causes our import of XML documents to fail, but only when the XML document has a comment in it. Turns out Microsofts XML Parser had changed it's behaviour, which causes an error in our parsing of the document. The change is undocumented and without warning.

Yet, what do our customers see ? Our software has a bug. To be fair, it's a rare occasion that Microsoft OS Updates cause us greif, but it illustrates my point : Software is complex, and often the cause is beyond the control of the developer.

I think some of the contributors here need to take a chill-pill, and work out a productive strategy for solving their problems -like talking to 2Clix.

All I can say is these posters must have never used SAP. A product that costs $3 to $4 million yet costs upwards of $12 million to get it implemented and actually working properly. Oganisations take that onboard when purchasng it and know not everything is perfect in the realworld. It appears others have no idea.

As I said,I consider it most unprofessional of Whirlpool to let these stand. Whether they are enough to justify or win a court case over, who knows, it's up to the judge. But in that case we'll know one thing at least that it will be conducted professionally.

last edited by Some Fat Bastard at 17:41:42 12/Sep/07

A long post with lots of quotes as usual. but no substance. WP has no commercial interest in the forums and should not be held accountable for peoples opinions in an open-community environment.

Oh. and no legal principle.

i'd just like to mention that the kaos car club are a bunch of retards

Fade, you seem to forget I stated that I have no idea whether there is any legal cuase to answer on Whirlpool and I don't care. What I'm having an opinion on is whether Whirlpool acted professionally in regards to this matter and the inconsistency in how they did. So in actual fact your post in rebuttal is a cockload of disinterest to me.

Funny though 2clix has to defend itself in a forum using it's real name and identity. Whereas it's majority of protagonists and critics do it behind the veil of anonymity added to this with comments like "I won't say which company I work for but we think 2clix sucks". How bleeding tough. Zero balls. If you're going to hop on the bandwagon have some balls and say who you really are if you exist at all. Pathetic.

last edited by Some Fat Bastard at 18:01:26 12/Sep/07

acted professionally

where are you getting this professionally bulls*** from? whirlpool is a community website not a bloody business.

f*** I hope QGL doesn't become all professional.. we might have to hold a LAN.

^ do you mean Simon and the mods should act like children and unprofessional? They portray the web site as a professional news reporting and Brodband Topic web site, not a 2bit whore house from down the road. Are you saying they aren't considered a professional web site?

BTW professional doesn't need to connotate commercial, but when you have the media exposure they have as the defintive broadband web site and promote yourselves as such and as a professionally managed web site then you either put up or shut up.

Very much in the same vain as Ausgamers, considered a professional, gamers web site, though is not commercial. Are you saying Whirlpool aren't in the same vain as Ausgamers?

I don't think people posting behind nicknames on the net is pathetic. They do it because companies such as this 2clix place would cry and sue them. That's prolly the main reason why they don't wanna come out.

There's obviously something going on at that place if there's an overwhelming response to a thread about them. It's no different to what goes on here about games and movies or whatever. If something is good or s***, people will talk about it.

^ as I said reverend I don't consider there is any point in suing nor do I believe Whirlpool have a legal case to answer. However I do think on this occasion they let things drift far too far and the debate became no longer between affected parties but with every dog and his bone having their 2c without actually having any motive other than to talk s*** and act, ridiculously, superior.

OCAU is another public web site where they act professionally and stamp out Vendor Verdicts for the very same reasons I espouse. It get's no one nowhere and opens up a can of worms in respect to malicious comemntary, that 1) can't be sustantiated in most cases 2) reflects poorly on the website 3) reduces the willingness of business to support the web site through advertising, content and product support, all of which the web site relies upon for it's existence and content that is targeted towards their subscriber base. without any of these do you think Whirlpool, OCAU and Ausgamers would exist? Whirlpool doesn't make revenue from advertising but it does receive benefits from industry by being considered a professional web site where information is freely given toit by industry. If it wasn't they wouldn't be getting the stories first hand.

Other than that the thread moved away from targeting the product to targeting the company. Comments about the legality of the company and it being deceptive and suggesting these should be raised with the ATO and ASIC is over the top in my books and those posts should have been deleted.

Another thing have I condemned them for not closing or deleting the thread, NO. I have condemned how some posters conducted themselves and suggest their posts should have been deleted by Whirlpool mods, nothing more. To suggest I proposed otherwise is absolute bollocks.

last edited by Some Fat Bastard at 18:58:30 12/Sep/07

2clix suing has most likely done more harm then good. hundreds of people that have now viewed that thread, probably never would have before 2clix decided to sue. they have probably lost a s*** load of future customers now.

i'd just like to mention that the kaos car club are a bunch of retards

hahaha

gold!

although shush, theres a house of them in my hood

i dont want no trouble

who are 2clix anyway.. and yes i cbf googling some retard company

Meh, Just read the thread that'll tell you about 2clix ;P

So if you happened to own a forum that 1000's of people posted on per day (for arguments sake) and it was impossible for you to read every single post of each thread. Would this sort of sueing activity make you responsible for something you can possibly do?

2Clix suck as much as EA obviously. I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and hate on them.

^ do you mean Simon and the mods should act like children and unprofessional?

They should act however the f*** they feel like in the site that they're running. If they act like children and/or unprofessional, people can perform the mind-bogglingly difficult task of closing their browser, or visiting one of the other several websites on the Internet.

where are you getting this professionally bulls*** from?

It's a shame more people don't have their own personal ethics for every day life. People seem to think that ethical behaviour is a thing which only belongs in the workplace, and I find this depressing. I believe each person should have their own personal code of ethics they use for their personal dealings. I guess the anonymity of the internet would defeat the purpose for most people though.

people can perform the mind-bogglingly difficult task of closing their browser, or visiting one of the other several websites on the Internet.

come on trog, next you will be expecting people who don't like certain tv shows to change the channel..

Ethics is different for everyone Crizane. I think it's ethical to let word of mouth play out as it's meant to. Without that you could have heaps of companies with inferior products and no one is allowed to talk about it and recommend better products? Yes it drives some people's business down, but rightly so! Instead of whinging they should lift their game.

how come you don't seem to understand that there's a difference between stating opinion about a product/company, and comments like "I work near 2clix and know several of their customers, not one of them is happy and in fact a few of them are currently reviewing their systems to replace them, if anyone in this forum wants to get in touch with them, please email me and I can pass on contact details."

They should act however the f*** they feel like in the site that they're running. If they act like children and/or unprofessional, people can perform the mind-bogglingly difficult task of closing their browser, or visiting one of the other several websites on the Internet.

Come on trog, ffs grow up. If they wish to portray themselves as an authoritative source in a particlar topic as widely as they do, they should behave in an ethical and professional manner. If not then do you think they would last more than 2 miniutes as an authoratative source on the subject.

You really are a pansy sometimes.

it's true though, they can run their site how they like. if what you say is true, then it'll fall by the wayside. they seem to be doing ok for the most part though

If they wish to portray themselves as an authoritative source in a particlar topic as widely as they do, they should behave in an ethical and professional manner

Why should they? They can portray themselves any way they like and they can act any way they like. If that makes you belive they are less authoritative then that is your choice, and fairly so.

You are right Jim. They get the kudos and the subscriber base by being considered and portraying themselves as a professional, ethical, authoritative and non-aligned website on the topic of Broadband.

I don't know why some people get all fussed because I have the view Whirlpool let things get out of hand on this matter. It is obvious it has as far as the plaintiff is concerned, which is a pity, alas may I add the moderation if anything is usually far more extreme and heavyhanded on Whirlpool for far less significant infringements.

ethics are subjective. Egoism is a valid ethical philosophy, so I can mouth off with my head up ass and still be ethical. Personally i'm a utilitarian(greatest good for the greatest number, and if some suffered for the greater good - so be it) so WP's actions in letting it play out and warning people about a piece of software which by all accounts blows.

yeah personally when reading those threads I was a bit surprised they hadn't yoinked a lot of those posts

Well they could have least shown a bit of commonsense i.e. erred on the side of caution. Look where this has gotten them. If it wasn't for the donations to fight the case, they'd be royally f***ed.

That's all I'm saying too, Jim. Would have saved a lot of people a lot of trouble.

You really are a pansy sometimes.

Very professional.

They have made a mistake bringing it to the attention of a lot more people.
As for the E-Bashers, I always take on forums with a grain of salt.
Forums can provide some good base for research but are by far a finished product review.

Very professional

Ta. Then again have I ever said I was and have I ever given you reason to think so?

that's a very professional looking 4" lift on your jeep there scooter

why would I bother

Come on trog, ffs grow up. If they wish to portray themselves as an authoritative source in a particlar topic as widely as they do, they should behave in an ethical and professional manner. If not then do you think they would last more than 2 miniutes as an authoratative source on the subject.

hmmm...

Ta. Then again have I ever said I was and have I ever given you reason to think so?

So every post you've made is just bulls*** then?

Wait, we already knew that, carry on.

^ of course, can't you see. I'm amazed it took you this long.

already

Past tense. learn2read.

locking to prevent me from having to delete any comments about 2clix