Okay so some people want burning the australian flag put down as a criminal offense. Now I know some people think that it shouldn't BUT how do you think aboriginies would feel we we burnt their flag????

If you buy the flag yourself and burn it then good on ya!

If you steal one and do it you should be flogged to an inch of your life.

last edited by Reverend Evil at 18:07:08 27/Jan/06

im going to stand in the middle of king george square tomorrow and burn the aboriginal flag.

We can only hope that in burning flags, they spill the petrol used to start it on themselves and therefore remove the underlying problem.

We can only hope that in burning flags, they spill the petrol used to start it on themselves and therefore remove the underlying problem.

Impossible. Any petrol spilt is usually inhaled almost immediately by onlookers :P

http://www.members.optushome.com.au/gpahl/flag.jpg

PWN

highly appropriate.

You have to be a pretty tough guy to burn a flag

BUT how do you think aboriginies would feel we we burnt their flag????

Dunno who that we we guy is.. but anyway...


Its a powerful message to burn the flag of a country, regardless of wether burning it is illegal or not I'd much prefer to look into why they'd use that as the means to carry their message given the recent spate of race related violence etc... Its not simply a matter of 'how would they feel if'.. considering the aboriginal flag was created for a whole raft of different reasons then the australian flag.. I'd even go as far to say that the aboriginal flag means a great deal more to the aboriginal people then the union jack stamped southern cross means to averge joe blogs aussie bogan...

Instead of looking at the flag buring, look at the people sending the message

It disgusted me when those racist scum lebs burnt the Aussie Flag that belonged to the Cronulla RSL club.

Those poor diggers were killed and maimed for our flag and what it stands for ( a bloody fair go for all) all those yrs ago just so some disrespectful arseholes can burn it.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 18:47:07 27/Jan/06

I like how the abo dude said whilst burning the flag "Everything that's happened to us is because of this"

I dunno if he was talking about the fuel he used to burn the flag or the flag itself.

It seems like there's a "we got treated like s*** f***loads of years ago and so I have a right to be an absolute f***ing f***** s*** about it" thing going on.
I say, you're f***ing Australian. Shut the f*** up and sit the f*** down, or go give back the imported Spray cans you've been chroming with and go back to the bush.

Its complete bulls***, my friends. Flag burning should not be tollerated. As if they're the same generation who got 'stolen' anyway. Get the f*** over it! Little Johnny said sorry.

We should rock on down and yell out "Everything thats s*** in this country is because of this" .. then burn the Abbo flag.

he said to the media later, if australians really wanted to fix the country, become a republic and get a new flag, one that encompasses everyone

he was moreover pissed off at british imperialism and what that had done, not australia itself.

albeit it was pretty over the top but there are two sides to the story

Well sif do it on Australia day. Its a day about Australia, not british imperialism.

last edited by AdamtehGreat at 19:15:36 27/Jan/06

Sounds a bit more like "Oh dear, I've really f***ed up.. better change my story after the fact so I don't look as bad"

Sounds more like "I'm a useless bum of an abo, I really shouldn't have been born."
What would happen if we went and burnt their flag because of the s*** they have done?

f*** abo's, I dont even care if the majority of em are good.

Requesting nukes to this thread, it's the only way to be sure.

To be sure of what? I can't see why we can't have a little vent session regarding our flag burning.

I should probably edit my post and make it more like;

We should rock on down and yell out "Everything thats s*** in this country is because of this" .. then burn the [Flag of ethnic person] flag.

i wouldn't burn an aborigional flag, they would call me a racist and lock me up

Okay so some people want burning the australian flag put down as a criminal offense. Now I know some people think that it shouldn't BUT how do you think aboriginies would feel we we burnt their flag????

I think they would obviously take more offense to it than non-Aboriginal Australians - Aboriginal persons already (seem?) to be perceived as being a separate, minority within the Australian population, and imo, burning their flag would just cause them to feel (more?) marginalised...not good.

Burning the australian flag is a criminal offense...in New South Wales, unfortunatly not in Queensland.

Burning a flag might already be illegal under the Victorian Racial and Religious Tolerance Act.

(1) A person must not, on the ground of the race of another person or class of persons, engage in conduct that incites hatred against, serious contempt for, or revulsion or severe ridicule of, that other person or class of persons.

"race" includes—
(a) colour;
(b) descent or ancestry;
(c) nationality or national origin

I think that the flag burning signified essentially what makes this country so great. When people are totally free to dissent, freely voice their opinion and even burn the very emblem of our nation in public, then we live in a very free and tolerant nation indeed.

Seeing that flag being burnt made me proud to live in Australia.

edit: didn't realise it was illegal in other states...my point still stands, however.

last edited by korbs at 20:36:44 27/Jan/06

^

I don't get that. We live in a country that allows ALL to voice their opinions without persecution...the burning of the flag represents that u don't agree with this and everything else related to freedom, justice and equality, that Australia stands for.

Personally, I find it offensive.

he burning of the flag represents that u don't agree with this and everything else related to freedom, justice and equality, that Australia stands for.

yeah, because those aboriginals must hate freedom,justice and equality. Their masterplan is to overthrow the government and rule the country with an iron fist, soviet style :rolleyes:

Also, i didn't realise you decided the official significance of flag-burning.



last edited by korbs at 20:58:34 27/Jan/06

No, sorry, I think u've misinterpreted me.

I find it offensive PERSONALLY...because I interpret burning the flag as going against common Australian values and beliefs.

I never said this was the case - merely that it is my (and surely, *some* other persons) interpretations.

You're entitled to have ur opinion tho, as are others...I respect that right.

Also, i didn't realise you decided the official significance of flag-burning.

Sorry, what else is it meant to represent? The flag is supposed to represent the country and what it stands for.
Burning it is disagreeing with something that it stands for somewhere along the line.

True, loki. But it's not the all-or-nothing situation agent 99 was suggesting. The demonstrators feel strongly about aboriginal land rights (and rightly so) and are showing their disapproval of the government's (and by proxy, the voting public) actions by burning the flag. I don't think they were protesting against freedom, equality, justice and democracy and human rights and every other possible thing Australia stands for.

You might not agree with it, but you have to respect a society which is free and tolerant enough that people have the right to burn the national icon.

Their demonstration (whether you agree with their views or not) was a case-in-point of how awesomely free we, as citizens are, which is good.

Korbs, I can see exactly where u are coming from. HOWEVER, I suppose I hold firm in my belief that the Australian flag represents first and foremost democracy, and in that, respect for all. IMO (and my opinion only is all I'm suggesting) I see burning the flag as kind of "throwing a hissy fit" for lack of a better description atm...I think that whilst ALL are entitled (and rightly so) to their rights, their are other ways to make ur point of view heard. I just think the flag represents EVERYONE and ALL of the DIFFERENT views out their, and burning the flag (of any country) is like starting up a superiority complex in a way...like having an opinion and disrespecting others at the same time.

Just my opinion tho.

I think that whilst ALL are entitled (and rightly so) to their rights, their are other ways to make ur point of view heard

I don't want to derail this into a aboriginal-rights debate, but:

i think the reason they feel the need to make such a strong symbolic statement is because nobody will listen to them otherwise.

Nobody likes to admit it, but white Australia has a black history. Aboriginals have been getting the shaft for the last 200 years and (imo) they are justified in their strong opposition to the government and its policies.

When stating an opinion, one doesn't need to say "I feel that" or "it is my opinion that"

People will infer this for themselves and the redundant lead in only serves to weaken the viewpoint

So those who get up people for not qualifying their opinions should bugger off forthwith.

As for burning the Australian flag, I was happy to see that both sides of politics have got real. John Howard:

"Much as all I despise what they did I do not believe it should be a criminal offence ...," he said.

"I see that kind of thing as just as expression, however offensive to the majority of the Australian community, an expression of political opinion.

"I do not think we achieve anything by making it a criminal offence - we only turn yahoo behaviour into martyrdom."

Kim Beazley concurred with this saying that just because something offends or annoys you, you don't need to make a law about it. Hooray for common bloody sense, if you bought something with your own money, burn that s***.

When stating an opinion, one doesn't need to say "I feel that" or "it is my opinion that"

People will infer this for themselves and the redundant lead in only serves to weaken the viewpoint

So those who get up people for not qualifying their opinions should bugger off forthwith.

true, but in the interests of keeping things friendly and civil (especially in the written context where there is no tone or body language), it doesn't hurt to state something is your opinion only to avoid misunderstanding.

last edited by korbs at 21:46:05 27/Jan/06

When stating an opinion, one doesn't need to say "I feel that" or "it is my opinion that"
People will infer this for themselves and the redundant lead in only serves to weaken the viewpoint

I agree that it can easily be inferred, but OFTEN ppl take things personally, and so whilst it *may* weaken ones viewpoint in their statement of argument, it *may* also serve to show respect to the other person and their viewpoint...and remind them that what u have to say is not an attack against that person, but *rather* u simply disagree with their viewpoint. I have used this tactic before in debating and I find it works well. You might be surprised how often ppl take things personally in a debate.

So those who get up people for not qualifying their opinions should bugger off forthwith.

Well spoken.

Edit: Agree with Korbs also (what I said was basically the same thing).

last edited by Agent 99 at 21:53:39 27/Jan/06

the flag burners wifes funeral will be held next week.

as a matter of style what I said does indeed apply to what's written

sure it doesn't hurt to say that, but it's not something you give people a hard time for leaving out

on the other hand if you are making a statement that is obviously meant to be an authoritative fact ("glass is a liquid") then yes put it in

If they really want to protest on how tough they have it in this country and draw attention to their cause, I reckon they should burn their unemployment cheques. Now THAT would really turn some heads.

:P

What about the fire ban?

When did this thread turn into a flag burning debate into a 'how to construct an argument/essay' debate? :)

On topic: Korbs, I agree with you, you put down what I was thinking in strong words.
Kudos!

abo's need to get over it already. not a country in the world that had not been invaded,etc. how constructive it is for them to burn the flag .they can call it invasion day for all i care ,im still havin a barbie and beers.
what a productive member of society that guy seemed .

"i think the reason they feel the need to make such a strong symbolic statement is because nobody will listen to them otherwise.

Nobody likes to admit it, but white Australia has a black history. Aboriginals have been getting the shaft for the last 200 years and (imo) they are justified in their strong opposition to the government and its policies."

hahah do u really think we need to say sorry?

donno... annoying when ethnic people do it because they're not really australian they are just guests.

When white people do it i dont get annoyed so much as they have more of a right to do so.

I believe in a UN report a few years back there was only one country in the whole world that was above reproach for all human rights abuse, one small Pacific island country that did not have bad stuff in its past or present - everyone else has got *something* going down

No one complained when cyclons took over and bombed the s*** outta Caprica. Everyone needs to get along.

Atleast they are doing something productive with fuel for once. Providing both light and warmth is a huge step up over getting high off it.

Nobody likes to admit it, but white Australia has a black history. Aboriginals have been getting the shaft for the last 200 years and (imo) they are justified in their strong opposition to the government and its policies.

define "the shaft" cause if the shaft doesn't mean "no repercussions for actions, crying racists and getting there own way, preference in centerlink lines. and frequent shopper vouchers at life-line" then of course they are getting shafted.

the ones that aren't getting shafted.. are the ones that are actually doing something constructive in society.

I think attempted genocide is kinda getting the shaft.

I found it amusing that they were blaming western society for all there problems, but they were all out there in there joggers etc, not living like they would if we hand't come along.

Guess they hate us, but not enough to stop wearing nike's.

heh. there's some big calls gettin' round in here.

Even Johnny! hehe.

if we criminalise blah blah we only turn yahoo behaviour into martyrdom."

word.

They're my sentiments, really.



My thoughts on the burning of the flag:

If our flag 'stands' for something, it stands for the Australian 'way' of life, or in other words the Australian demeanor.

As far as I'm concerned, the demeanor or collective attitude of Australia as a nation has a real streak of "she'll be right mate" in it.
We're not a buch of whingers. s*** happens that we gotta deal with. So we just f***ing deal with it. Things go wrong and are frequently out of our control. There's no point moaning like a bitch, (all generally speaking of course).
Despite how typical the saying is, as someone said earlier, sometimes you just have to get over it. A stance like, "Meh, who cares, it's already happened, nothing we can do about it now, move the f*** on", is often the best position to take, and it can apply to almost every aspect of life. (within reason obviously)

(I'm gonna have trouble articulating what I'm trying to say but here goes...)

The fact that this 'Aussie' point of view is somewhat represented by our flag means that we can/should employ the very views it represents when witnessing it's own destruction. As such, the morals and views it stands for transcends its own burning or destruction. I rekon.

To really put it in perspective, this would be the extent of my thought processes on the issue if I saw whoever it was burning the flag in person:

"Ha. Check this clown out. Haha. C0oL StATeMent d00D!. No-one cares buddy. What a f***ing noob. Haha. Now should I get subway or hungry smacks..... nah f*** em both, I'll get a sarsaparilla. Oh and that guy is probably just angry because he's really f***ing ugly. Poor guy.

On another note, this forum has become quite civil lately. Sensible, reasonable discussions on syntax and what not. haha.

Now we just need clipto to come and f*** it all up.

Kat asked "how do you think aborigines would feel we we burnt their flag????".

Well after having their land stolen from them and being decimated by the invaders in the process. With later generations growing up in a poverty cycle of welfare dependency, drunkedness, domestic violence and third world health conditions and being told constantly to "just get over it". Burning their flag is just "more of the same". It would actually state explicitly the Howard government's unspoken position on the aboriginal problem - "We don't give a s***".

As far as I'm concerned, the demeanor or collective attitude of Australia as a nation has a real streak of "she'll be right mate" in it.
We're not a buch of whingers.

I really think that is bulls***. Australians are constantly complaining more than even English people. Australians whinge about so much s*** all the time.

I am not joking or baiting but you must be in f***ing denial if you think that Australians are not whingers.

nah it's cool I hear what you're saying... and fair comment. You ARE right..... but I'm not talking about any individuals attitudes if that makes sense...


I'm more referring to a general national attitude if you catch my meaning... a national sentiment.... I knew I'd have trouble articulating what I'm trying to say :/

Individuals are a totally different and unrelated thing to what I'm talking about. Trust me, I, too, know too many f***ing whinging idiots that I'd care to name. The level of pathetic and petty that some people will get hung up on is breathtaking at times. By the same token there's plenty of people who seem to have such little worries with anything that it's unnatural. But these aren't the attitudes I'm referring to. I'm trying to find a less gay way of referring to a 'national attitude' so it makes more sense.

meh.

With later generations growing up in a poverty cycle of welfare dependency, drunkedness, domestic violence and third world health conditions

Well if they sit on their asses all day then yes that's all they can expect. No one MAKES them dependant of welfare, no one MAKES them drink, no one MAKES them commit violent acts, as for the third world health conditions, well, have you heard whats been happening with the health care system lately? We are ALL having to deal with third world health conditions!

just imagine a huge hardcore abo army wipping out australias army and taking the country back.
what could anyone say?
it was stolen from them now they've stolen it back. tho theyd have to upgrade their sticks and perhaps use a darker war paint at night.

in replay to Tanaka Khan -

I think it would be harder than you you imagine to break out of that poverty cycle. Middle class Australians like myself who have grown up in stable families usually have good role-models like our parents that help us in many ways we often don't recognize. By watching them as we grow up we learn what it takes to get on in life.

But if you grew up in an impoverished environment without those role-models it would be hard to get out of there. It would be common to feel hard done by, jealous of other Australians and tempting just to give up. Most of my high-school friends went to university and it was no big deal to us. But i can only imagine how hard that would be to do if you grew up in an aboriginal community where education wasn't valued, few finished high school and you knew nobody who had even been to a university.

It's too easy to blame the victim. I think the pessimistic behaviour by aboriginal people today is the way most people would behave if they faced the same seemingly unsurmountable obstacles. And we the Australian people are not doing much to change their prospects.

It's too easy to blame the victim.

The victim as created by whom? Themselves?

It's too easy to blame the victim.

Yep. Fun, too!

this heres the wattle, it's the emblem of our land!
you can stick it in a bottle or hold it in your hand.
amen, another tube.

Well I was portraying the aboriginal people as victims of the circumstances they find themselves in. And I am sure many of them see themselves as victims. What is wrong with that if you have suffered injustice and still deal with the consequences on a day-to-day basis?

In general I don't think it's the case that aboriginals "play the victim" to manipulate the Australian public for sympathy if that is what you meant Kat. It obviously doesn't work.

Qix, I can understand first aboriginies that were here when we landed and those who dealt with all the stolen generation, but today's aboriginal youth just keep riding that wave of 'we were hard done by'.

As for playing the victim, I think a lot of them do, why??? I don't know because as you said they don't have much sympathy coming to them BUT it does scare the government into giving them what they want.

I choose my life. I can't see why others can't, specially when we live in the same country

I know a few abo's who have escaped the pverty, because they didn't want to live like their parents, what great motivation is there than to see your parents lives be crushed by poverty.

So Qix, I understand your arguement, but I don't think that it really should hold true, sure it might be harder for them but they have to realise (and I know it's cliche) that rome wasn't built in a day.

with respect to Qix's idea that the federal government isn't doing enough, my question is "what more could the government be doing?"

there's all sorts of money, concessions, incentives reserved especially for indigenous people - I don't begrudge them any of those (as some people do) because yes, they do have a culture of poverty, squalor, substance abuse, etc to overcome in many cases

but you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

what more should the government be doing - perhaps taking aboriginal kids and placing them in white foster homes?

and it ain't all Johnny, state governments are in this just as much if not more.

Even the incredibly patriotic American people recently decided that someone burning an American flag might not deserve incarceration anymore due to equality and freedom of speech.

I see exactly where Korbs is comming from in that these aboriginals have inadvertantly shown everyone that we are an open and forward thinking nation in allowing such freedom of speech.
We still have a decent way to go yet though, heavy swearing in public is still an offense so freedom of speech can't encompass everything ;P.

To me their actions have totally backfired in their faces.

what more should the government be doing - perhaps taking aboriginal kids and placing them in white foster homes?

Stolen generation part 2!!!

Kat, it is admirable that you "choose your life". By that I assume you mean something like that you feel in control of your life and as a result you work hard at being happy now and in the future.

I imagine alot of aboriginal people do not feel that way about themselves. I'm generalizing alot here. But alot of them have basically lost hope of a better future and so don't bother to help themselves. Once people reach that kind of mental state they tend not to have the motivation to drag themselves out of that hole.

I guess I'm sympathetic to that because I feel i have had a similiar experience. I have had depression for nearly 20 years now and when it's bad I know the feeling of hopelessness pretty well. The illness makes you feel awful and even saps your motivation to get out of it. I don't expect anybody who feels the helplessness i have felt at those times to find the strength to help themselves.

So I guess my point is I think most people underestimate how hard it is to overcome the "handicap" of being born aboriginal. (I'm not sure i like using that word). Unless something is done to combat this feeling of hopelessness and to make the aboriginal people feel respected, and a valuable part of Australian society then Australia is going to be in this same situation in 100 years time.

Unfortunately I think most Australians either tollerate or despise aborigina1 people. Respect seems a long way off.

Respect is a 2 way street.

Qix, I guess I don't see being born into an ethic group a disability and I think that there is only so long that people can do the 'woe is me' before people get sick of hearing it.

If someone chooses to stay hard done by or stay in the cycle of abuse most aboriginal families experiences then why should I be sympathetic to that?

I also think that the whole 'Us and them' mentality needs to be struck out. I don't care if someone is an aboriginal and it seems that if an aboriginal succeeds they did so because they worked hard and it had nothing to do with their blood but if an aboriginal fails it is just put down to them being aboriginal.

They want to be labelled but cry racism when they are. A lot of double standards going on in today's aboriginal communites and and on aboriginal issues.

I have found far more aboriginals isolate themselves than any white man ever has.

But alot of them have basically lost hope of a better future

It's their choice though, no one elses. If they decide all they are going to do is sit around and drink, smoke and bitch how they have been hard done by it's their choice. No one is going to come up to you (black, white, asian, etc) and say "Gee, you look hard done by, here's a new house, job and $50 grand to get you started". There are no free hand outs in life, if you want something you need to have the balls to go out and take it! Aboriginals are not the only people in Australia who may have it tough, plenty of "white" people are in the same boat.

When I was younger, my father was in the army and we moved about alot, once place I grew up in was Darwin. Just outside the Army base there was an Aboriginal Hostel where they were given accommodation and food. On the way to school we use to see them sitting out front doing absolutely nothing, and on the way back home they were practically in the very same spot. Because the government was aiding them in this way, these people were content to just sit around and accept their lots in life. It's up to the individual to get out there and improve on what you have!!

last edited by Tanaka Khan at 17:31:31 28/Jan/06

Sure, some white people have it tough

Aborigines on the other hand have these settlements in the middle of godforsaken nowhere with no jobs and sweet f*** all recreation apart from drinking and beating your Mrs

I don't think anything poor Westie bogan white trash have even nearly approximates those kinds of squalid conditions

I say the govt needs to bulldoze a lot of these settlements and relocate the people to more viable towns where they have a chance to do some other stuff. Unfortunately such direct action, unlike throwing money at incompetent indigenous bodies like ATSIC, would draw criticism toward the Prime Minister for "not giving a damn" about aborigines.

Insom - The problem of aboriginal health/poverty/crime/helplessness etc is a tough one. And I'm hardly qualified to know what to do about it as I have had very little contact with any aboriginal people.

White foster homes is definitely not the way. (I agreed with the rest of your post)

I think the prime minister saying sorry would be a great start though. When Howard refused to say sorry he was sending a powerful message. To me the message he sent was "We are not sorry for the suffering the aboriginal people have experienced in the last 200 years." I think aboriginal people heard that loud and clear.

An apology would be a purely symbolic act. He would essentially be apologizing on behalf of previous generations of Australians who wronged the aborigines either deliberately or inadvertently. I think that would also send the message that the government is now serious about improving aboriginal standard of living rather than just perpetuating it with welfare payments.

I remember reading that it would take 1 billion dollars (estimated by the AMA i think) to lift the standards of medical care in aboriginal communties to the level we have in the cities. (That is cities outside Qld I guess :P) Alot of money but health spending is a good investment that will save money longterm.

Throwing money at aboriginal problems hasn't worked in the past. So any new schemes will have to be well thought out so as to achieve outcomes rather than just being another welfare payment.

I don't know enough to really suggest anymore.

But none of this is going to happen until the majority of Australian people want it to. Howard will be the first to say "Sorry" when it becomes a vote winner.

Qix: Why should Howard apologise for something that he had no power over?

Why would someone want an apology from someone who didn't wrong them?

I don't think John owes anyone an apology.

I have to agree with Kat on this one.
Why should little johhny apologise for anything? I haven't seen/read anywhere that he nor the current elected political party have gone out and perpatrated the "stolen generation" or enacted any genocidal tendancies towards the aboriginies. So what has HE and the CURRENT politaical parties got to apologise for??.
Yes i am sure he, as are we all, am sorry it happened but that is way different for apologising for it.
Why don't you ask every political party in Germany to apologise for Hitler.. everytime a new one is elected until the end of time.

im with merlyn in kat.

would you apologise to someone for something someone you never met did to someone else you never met 40 years ago?

I thought howard had apologised for that s***?

"But none of this is going to happen until the majority of Australian people want it to"


because maybe majority of aussies had nothing to do with it and feel no need to say sorry.

ummm Fade.... Kat and i are just friends.
Not to sure what you meant with the "IN" thing :P

an apology wouldn't achieve anything. aboriginal leaders need to help their people get out of poverty and get healthy. how they choose to live their life otherwise is their business.

Qix: Why should Howard apologise for something that he had no power over?

Because he is the representative of the state (Christ only knows why), and it is the state that perpetrated the crimes in the past. He should say sorry on behalf of our ancestors, as the representative of the government of this country. You can't just commit genocide and then say "oh well, too bad, I'm not really affiliated with my ancestors in that way".

By the same token, once said it is time for everyone to move on. You need a point at which to say "ok, that is the past let's make the future better."
Saying "sorry" officially could very well be that point. What's the f***ing big deal anyway? Anyone with half a brain can see the Aborigines got completely f***ed over. I challenge anyone here to say they didn't get morally, spiritually and physically raped in the process of having their country stolen. Now you tell me why we shouldn't say sorry.

I love all these arguments that say, "ohh but that wasn't us, that happened years ago. That's nothing to do with us." Then in the next breath they want to identify with the Aussie spirit of Gallipoli or take pride in the proud history of some sporting team or other. Well you weren't at Gallipoli so you can't take any pride in remembering it? Gimme a break.

Selective memory?

Agreeing with Kat, Merlyn and fade too.

Why don't you ask every political party in Germany to apologise for Hitler.. everytime a new one is elected until the end of time.

Just once would be fine. No one is asking for an ongoing apology every time a new party is elected.

It just shows that Howard hasn't got the guts to do anything politically risky or against the general population of bogan f***wits in Australia, because he is a spineless worm. And if you think that sending troops to Iraq etc shows guts, I would argue that it is more like standing behind the school bully and shaking your fist at some defenceless kid.

We have a lot to be proud of in Australia. Pity our elected leader isn't one of them.

Just curious too, should the australian government say sorry, wouldnt that be the equivalent to an admission of guilt which could lead to legal action by the aboriginal people against the australian government?

Yes it would.

December, 1992: Australian Prime Minister Paul Keating acknowledges wrongs done to Aborigines.
August, 1995: The Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission issues a report recommending an apology and reparations for the Australian government¹s policy of forcibly removing mixed-blood children from aboriginal families between 1910 and 1970
February 20, 1998: The Anglican Church of Australia apologizes for its participation in the policy of forcibly removing aboriginal children from their mothers.
August 27, 1999: Australian Prime Minister John Howard apologizes for past mistreatment of Aborigines. (Cf. 6/23/01.)
June 23, 2001: Australian Prime Minister John Howard says he is personally sorry for mistreatment of Aborigines but opposes a formal national apology because it could encourage claims for compensation. (Cf. 8/27/99.)

Good find there spoon, but dont forget this whole arguement isnt just about those who were involved in the "stolen generation" affair, they are complaining about the past 200+ years of "white settlement". Although I do agree that those involved in the "Stolen Generation" may deserve some sort of compensation, if it could be found that this actually worsened their lives.

"It just shows that Howard hasn't got the guts to do anything politically risky or against the general population of bogan f***wits in Australia, because he is a spineless worm. And if you think that sending troops to Iraq etc shows guts, I would argue that it is more like standing behind the school bully and shaking your fist at some defenceless kid."

and the real reason u want an apology seems clears.

I love all these arguments that say, "ohh but that wasn't us, that happened years ago. That's nothing to do with us." Then in the next breath they want to identify with the Aussie spirit of Gallipoli or take pride in the proud history of some sporting team or other. Well you weren't at Gallipoli so you can't take any pride in remembering it? Gimme a break.

In your next post, you say that "We have a lot to be proud of in Australia." So what is it? Were not allowed to be proud of those who gave their lives at Gallipoli, or when a past australian cricket team beat england? Being proud of something that happened 60 odd years ago is totally different to apoligizing about when the first fleet landed here!

Going back a bit...

You are absolutely kidding yourselves if you think people wouldn't for one second change their circumstances if they believed it was a viable option...

In your next post, you say that "We have a lot to be proud of in Australia." So what is it? Were not allowed to be proud of those who gave their lives at Gallipoli, or when a past australian cricket team beat england? Being proud of something that happened 60 odd years ago is totally different to apoligizing about when the first fleet landed here!

No I am not saying we shouldn't be proud of these things, of course we should.
What I am saying is that people are willing to remember the good stuff but sweep the rest under the carpet.
And I think you'll find that Australia's bad treatment of Aborigines has endured quite a bit longer than the years when the colonies were set up. It has only been in the last 20 or so years that the government has made any significant contribution to Aboriginal welfare etc.
As a country we have a long history of racism and oppression. The White Australia policy (affecting overseas migrants etc) was only completely dismantled in 1973.

I think it's important to look a bit deeper than the surface on these issues. It is easy to sit back and rattle off an opinion, just like it's easy to sit and watch a game of footy and say what the players should be doing. But until you're out there on the field, you can't really know what it's like. Similarly with these types of issues, there is far more complex social issues at work, and simply saying "they" should get off their arse is not really showing much understanding of the issues involved.

Yes, I agree Aborigines in Australia should work and all the rest, but it is a process of change and education, not condemnation. Sorry, but you are only showing ignorance and intolerance by espousing these types of ideas.

I totally agree with you about the process of change and education, but they still have to WANT to change. Instead all they do is sit around blaming the "white man" for all the wrongs ever committed against them, and as stated in a previous post, that has become old hat. People are tired of listening to that same old complaint. My comments may show a degree of intolerance, but its an intolerance of those not willing to go out there and achieve things for themselves and who want hand outs for everything.

Once I had completed my education, I went out and started working, unlike a number of people I knew who decided to "take a break for a year" before deciding what they wanted. I've worked hard for everything I have, and didnt achieve it through bitching and complaining to people how life was unfair.The chances are their for the aboriginal people to take hold of and to better their lives, but they have to want it, and to work for it.

last edited by Tanaka Khan at 01:22:08 29/Jan/06

"I think it's important to look a bit deeper than the surface on these issues. It is easy to sit back and rattle off an opinion, just like it's easy to sit and watch a game of footy and say what the players should be doing. But until you're out there on the field, you can't really know what it's like. Similarly with these types of issues, there is far more complex social issues at work, and simply saying "they" should get off their arse is not really showing much understanding of the issues involved."

get of ya high horse mate .
Alot of people see it different.

its a fact of life,people help those who help themselves and dont have a lot of time for those who cry victim.

I totally agree with you about the process of change and education, but they still have to WANT to change. Instead all they do is sit around blaming the "white man" for all the wrongs ever committed against them, and as stated in a previous post, that has become old hat. People are tired of listening to that same old complaint.

Yes, unfortunately some members of the Aboriginal community do have this attitude, and I certainly wouldn't defend this POV. However there are also people who do want change and who are making a positive difference. Not all Aborigines have this attitude, and it is unfair to tar them all with the same brush (no pun intended).

Again I agree with that point, in no way was I labeling ALL aboriginal people with my comments, as we all know there are many aboriginal people who have succeeded beyond all expectations in life... Cathy Freeman, Anthony Mundine (even though I can't stand the arrogant SOB he does what he sets his mind too), just to name a couple.