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Topic: Political Thread 3 Page: < 1 2 3 >
Vash
Posts: 5907
Location:

Pretty much do all those things as well Trog. Sold my car. I used to be a fossil fuel fiend when i was younger. Riding motos and fuel guzzling 4wds everywhere.
I'll miss those hobbies but those are the sacrifices we need to take.

Hopefully EV technology reaches a point where i can go remote in an EV 4WD like i used to.

But Infi will focus on you still using a car and say gotcha. and something about the elite not doing anything so he shouldn't.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39741
Location: Other International

Motorbikes and scooters are really fuel efficient aren't they? One thing I've noticed since coming back to BNE is that there seem to be way more scooters on the roads (most of them seem to be delivery drivers, but still, it's good to see)
Vash
Posts: 5908
Location:

Yes they are, but i was riding a hell of alot for recreational purposes, up to cape york and back to sydney, tassie etc.
I dont burn any fossil fuels now, at least not directly.
PornoPete
Posts: 3419
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

PP, how you're a lawyer is beyond me

Well one reason is that I read things closely and carefully.

As opposed to someone who is saying people take things too literally and then does a word search for "irreversible".

Let me help you.

Bolded are the words that undermine your argument.

Some impacts may be long-lasting or irreversible, such as the loss of some ecosystems (high confidence).


A little bit more carefully worded than if we don't hit 1.5 degrees millions of people die for certain. To be crystal clear vash. Not a single impact could be irreversible and that statement will still be true.

Please tell me you not confusing annual cost with total cost.
Annual cost indicates total cost.


Yeah I know vash. So that would be a yes then. Wow you actually did exactly what AOC did. Figures.

So Bernie's plan might save money in 2032, but in the meantime it still costs 32 trillion. An explanation of how that prevents climate change is probably too much to ask for, but here is the thing vash. The money in the status quo is not all paid for by the state. It will be under Bernie's model. So the 'saving’ won't be realised by the government. It will have to foot a much larger bill than it ever did.

Now again on why I'm a lawyer. Agreeing the plan costs 32 trillion *doesn't*undermine my argument that the plan costs 32 trillion.
Vash
Posts: 5909
Location:

Yes if we're being literal, you said there is no mention of irreversible. So there it is. We shouldn't go too far into the details now, because we're only being literal.

Now again on why I'm a lawyer. Agreeing the plan costs 32 trillion *doesn't*undermine my argument that the plan costs 32 trillion.


Haha. It completely dismantles your argument. Actually when i said the upfront cost is 32 trillion, that was wrong. The annual cost will actually go down for health care.
So to try and spin it your way just because the plan is stated to cost 32 trillion, despite that replacing the original system, and saving money, is frankly hilarious.

It just proves again you only think literally. The plan will cost 32 trillion. You're right. Now you cant think anywhere beyond that statement.

You're the embodiment of the dunning kruger effect, and im convinced you accuse me of it purely due to your own insecurities.
PornoPete
Posts: 3420
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Haha it's enjoyable watching your programming break. I like how you substitute in large passages of text you clearly don't understand like a program whose variables are too loosely defined.

Yes if we're being literal, you said there is no mention of irreversible. So there it is. We shouldn't go too far into the details now, because we're only being literal.

Well I didn't say the word doesn't appear. I said it doesn't say irreversible damage will as a matter of course happen.

Here is what I said vash and what I was responding to.

You

The IPCC says that irreversible damage will occur in 12 years time, you linked it yourself.

it absolutely doesn't say that.

me

No it doesn't vash. And it is not what I said. For the millionth time it says global carbon emissions have to be reduced by around 45% to limit warming to 1.5 degrees.

That's what it says. It doesn't say irreversible. And it doesn't say catastrophic climate change will definitely follow if the targets are not met.


As for the cost

Just to recap.

You said that I'd found an economist who'd overstated the cost by a multiple of 7.

I showed you that a single element of the plan costs nearly half the overall spend so your statement cannot possibly be true.

You now concede that one element does in fact cost about half the overall amount.

And somehow you get to this:

Haha. It completely dismantles your argument. Actually when i said the upfront cost is 32 trillion, that was wrong. The annual cost will actually go down for health care.
So to try and spin it your way just because the plan is stated to cost 32 trillion, despite that replacing the original system, and saving money, is frankly hilarious.


So it doesn't undermine my argument. Like at all.

We can go into why the saving doesn't alter the criticism but it's very very obvious you won't understand. But broad brush strokes.

Say two parties contribute 50% of the cost of a service. By having one party pay for it they can reduce the overall cost by 5%. The party who now pays 95% of the original amount does not pay less compared to what they were paying before.

The saving will not result in reduced government spending.


You're the embodiment of the dunning kruger effect, and im convinced you accuse me of it purely due to your own insecurities.


Don't you worry about $blank, let me worry about $blank.
Vash
Posts: 5910
Location:

Well I didn't say the word doesn't appear.


Spinny spin spin

That's what it says. It doesn't say irreversible. And it doesn't say catastrophic climate change will definitely follow if the targets are not met.


Uh huh. Im just using your literality against you, maybe you'll figure out how ridiculous it is to argue this way.
So we can argue forever about what words or statements are in the report or not, or we can have a useful discussion about the actual effects of climate change, and how to beat it.
Would you say its important we take swift action within the next 12 years? If not, why?


I showed you that a single element of the plan costs nearly half the overall spend so your statement cannot possibly be true.


Yet that cost is void, because the budget will not see the 32 trillion spending. Infact there will be a 2 trillion surplus to the budget.


We can go into why the saving doesn't alter the criticism but it's very very obvious you won't understand. But broad brush strokes.


Do enlighten us with your supreme intelligence. You need to smash some mushrooms to get that ego of yours under control.

The saving will not result in reduced government spending.


Source?
infi
Posts: 24260
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

noone is trying to revert us back to the Stone Age


the US Democrats Green New Deal intends to remove the use of all fossil fuels within 10 years. and your extended self-defence (which I never asked for, because I don't expect it from anyone except those lecturing others to make cuts) is proof to my argument - we can all CHOOSE to make changes without abolishing the use of fossil fuels.

Vash is the embodiment of a Marxist who would rather use the Government whip to drive this change. The problem is the aristocracy inevitably find themselves excluded. Funny that. The Pigs end up living inside the farmer's the house wearing human clothes.

renewables are just cheaper


renewables are not cheaper. 15% of my business energy bill is a renewable energy levy.
Vash
Posts: 5911
Location:

Vash is the embodiment of a Marxist who would rather use the Government whip to drive this change. The problem is the aristocracy inevitably find themselves excluded. Funny that. The Pigs end up living inside the farmer's the house wearing human clothes.


Remember who the author of Animal farm was? a devoted Socialist.

Climate change is a problem that is simply impossible to be fought against with a libertarian ideology. Without strong regulations on business and energy use, such as a carbon tax, there is zero incentive for a business to change its use of energy and other resources.

Government is literally the only way to force markets to greener options. And it certainly wont hurt the economy by doing so. Infact it may even strengthen it.


we can all CHOOSE to make changes without abolishing the use of fossil fuels.


Yeah that doesn't work out so good. Like when we abolished the carbon tax, our emissions went back up. Regulation works. Telling people how to live doesn't. You're the perfect example of that.
PornoPete
Posts: 3421
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Spinny spin spin

Important to note you started this when the IPCC didn’t even support your climbdown. Doesn’t quite compute does it vash.

Uh huh. Im just using your literality against you, maybe you'll figure out how ridiculous it is to argue this way.


You're not though vash. See again, computer doesn't fully grasp what is happening. It's doing a naive substitution and misapplying. A little like

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/0_ZCVf6h0koKAZnzr6L99IlubxA=/0x0:500x375/1200x0/filters:focal(0x0:500x375):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/10835833/n4scgse21iuz.jpg

The words you bolded don't literally mean the word irreversible doesn't appear in the IPCC report. They literally mean the IPCC document doesn't claim something will be irreversible and wait for it … it doesn't.

But the other reason you clearly don't understand the argument is that you clearly do believe the literal interpretation of the end of the world scenario. You've repeatedly mentioned how people will die in greater numbers than in any war.

Let me make this crystal clear. There is no reasonable interpretation of the IPCC document which supports that point of view. But it doesn't even support your climb down position.

None of that is to say nothing should be done. But a careful thoughtful managed approach to climate change will resolve it. Panicked hysteria will resolve nothing because it never does, and that is exactly what the green new deal is. Before you prattle on about how amazing it is, keep in mind the Dems didn’t include AOC’s document in the bill they passed. So her own party rejected her plan. Guess they must be engaging in the politics of fear too. Pelosi insulted her so savagely over it AOC doesn’t even appear to know she was insulted.

Yet that cost is void, because the budget will not see the 32 trillion spending. Infact there will be a 2 trillion surplus to the budget.


you don't know what single payer means do you. Getting the entire US health spend on the government's books is the point. The 2 trillion in savings reduces the overall spend from 34 trillion to 32 trillion, but most of it under the current arrangement is not spent by the government. And just so you know, a 2 trillion dollar *surplus* puts your accounting of the spend out by 36 trillion dollars. *edit* actually nix that, its out by 68 trillion because they spend the 32, so they would need 34 in credits to realise a *surplus* of 2. */edit*

As for my source for the claim, it’s the document you quoted from.

here you go champ.

But Sanders is right that the study concludes that his plan would reduce overall spending on health care in the United States. Most U.S. spending on health care is done through the private sector. Sanders’s plan would transition virtually all of that spending to the public sector, dramatically increasing government expenditures on health care while also reducing national health-care spending overall, according to the report.


And again

“I don’t look at this report and say it is a partisan hack job: The basic idea the Sanders plan would require a substantial increase in federal budget outlays is correct,” Pollack said. “But over the long run, the Sanders people are very correct that you could implement a system like this that would be more disciplined, more economical and more fair than the current U.S. health system.”


The plan is accepted by everyone including Sanders as requiring a dramatic expansion of government spending.

Any time you want to make the link as to why it is necessary to addressing climate change just get on in there.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2289
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

renewables are not cheaper. 15% of my business energy bill is a renewable energy levy.

That's because the externalities of fossil fuels aren't a part of what you can sell petrol, coal and gas for.
infi
Posts: 24261
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The levy isn't to price externalities, it's to subsidise renewable projects, home and large scale.

It's part of Australia's unenviable award as the most expensive energy in the world. And we have so much coal. See that's how government enslaves the masses in Marxist programs. Bill them just to live.
Vash
Posts: 5912
Location:


None of that is to say nothing should be done. But a careful thoughtful managed approach to climate change will resolve it.


Okay, so you're doing the Infi thing. Waffle on about the opposing proposed deal, instead offering zero alternative solutions. Because you dont have any. Now you're very quick to criticise AOC, yet we hear very little on precious Trump. Ever seen his climate change policy?

And on health care, its important to note the study was funded by the koch brothers backed libertarian think tank. It's like getting the IPA to do a study on whether the ABC should be privatised or not.

But getting into it further : https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/aug/03/bernie-sanders/did-conservative-study-show-big-savings-bernie-san/

The study proposed two outcomes, there will be a $2 trillion saving, or a $3 trillion increase annually. There was no conclusion on which scenario will happen.


Medicare for All would result in significant savings for the country because of lower prescription drug costs, saving $846 billion over the next decade. Streamlined administrative costs under the plan would save another $1.6 trillion, the researchers at the Mercatus Center found.


So even if the cost does blow out to $3 trillion a year, families will be paying far less for healthcare, giving them a large relief on cost of living pressures. This will give more people disposable income, stimulating the economy, and offsetting some of the expense with more tax revenue.
He's really just proposing what we already enjoy here in Australia.

Do you like Medicare & the PBS in Australia, PP? At the time of its proposal im sure conservatives were crying about the cost. But the benefits have far outweighed the cost.
infi
Posts: 24262
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

America already has massive unfunded pension liabilities - a bigger number than even the bartender could comprehend. But now she wants add on more trillions. It'll work out...
Vash
Posts: 5913
Location:

America already has massive unfunded pension liabilities - a bigger number than even the bartender could comprehend. But now she wants add on more trillions. It'll work out...


Yeah most of the world will need be dealing with that one in various ways. America needs to join the rest of the first world and get universal health care already. No excuse for the richest country in the world.
PornoPete
Posts: 3422
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Okay, so you're doing the Infi thing. Waffle on about the opposing proposed deal, instead offering zero alternative solutions. Because you dont have any. Now you're very quick to criticise AOC, yet we hear very little on precious Trump. Ever seen his climate change policy?


I don't know vash why don't you ask the house democrats who rejected it out of hand with no alternative. They landed on no plan is better than a bats*** insane one rather than play oh well what is trump doing game. Or do they all need to be woken up by totally not the politics of fear.

And on health care, its important to note the study was funded by the koch brothers backed libertarian think tank. It's like getting the IPA to do a study on whether the ABC should be privatised or not.


Yeah so the George Soros, sorry the Koch brothers angle would be more convincing if in the article you link to old mate Bernie didn't say this.

Sanders said, "Let me thank the Koch Brothers of all people for sponsoring a study that shows that Medicare for All would save the American people $2 trillion over a 10-year period. … That is what is in the study of the Mercatus Center."

Here comes a vash special.

So even if the cost does blow out to $3 trillion a year, families will be paying far less for healthcare, giving them a large relief on cost of living pressures.


Even if the *total us spend on healthcare increases 3 trillion*, people will still save money. Yes vash. Did you get confused between one of two scenarios?

80% of the time it works every time.

Do you like Medicare & the PBS in Australia, PP?


I do vash. But it's not a relevant question. We aren't debating if I want universal healthcare. We are debating the cost of a specific proposal.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39743
Location: Other International

the US Democrats Green New Deal intends to remove the use of all fossil fuels within 10 years
... and replace them, with a Manhattan-project-level effort, with renewables. This is like, the first line of their plan.

Again: noone is going to take away your electricity.
. and your extended self-defence (which I never asked for, because I don't expect it from anyone except those lecturing others to make cuts) is proof to my argument - we can all CHOOSE to make changes without abolishing the use of fossil fuels.
... which you never asked for, except in your repeated questions about what everyone else was doing (except me I guess), so you can apply the perfection fallacy to everyone else who fails to stop flying on private jets
renewables are not cheaper. 15% of my business energy bill is a renewable energy levy.
those two sentences don't logically follow in any way, but... what provider are you with?! Origin Qld charges 2c per kwH more for 25% "GreenPower" with a usual base rate of around 28c/kWh.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39744
Location: Other International

America already has massive unfunded pension liabilities - a bigger number than even the bartender could comprehend. But now she wants add on more trillions. It'll work out...
I thought this was stupid until I heard about 'MMT'.

Maybe taggs can explain it in more detail but basically, my understanding (from having listened to several podcasts and read articles by economists) is that money can magically be created forever, with no repercussions whatsoever. This is basically what we've been doing for the last decade and noone has caught on yet so therefore it will always work. (I might be missing some nuance.)
infi
Posts: 24263
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I have read and critiqued MMT in detail on twitter. It's just a fancy word for fiscal slobbishness.
Vash
Posts: 5914
Location:

I don't know vash why don't you ask the house democrats who rejected it out of hand with no alternative. They landed on no plan is better than a bats*** insane one rather than play oh well what is trump doing game. Or do they all need to be woken up by totally not the politics of fear.


Oh theres the deflection. Im asking you, not the democrats. AOC is as much a democrat as Sanders is. Which is far from the neoliberal politics of the democrats.

Yeah so the George Soros, sorry the Koch brothers angle would be more convincing if in the article you link to old mate Bernie didn't say this.


Yup, and the think tank didnt like that did they? So they came up with the alternative cost blow up scenario. Have to wonder.

Even if the *total us spend on healthcare increases 3 trillion*, people will still save money. Yes vash. Did you get confused between one of two scenarios?


So, how about we compare Australia's universal health care cost, which is 3.6% of GDP, with the USA, at 3.7%. I think the $3 trillion figure might just be a very inaccurate prediction. Now if we get a less biased 'think tank' on the case for a more varied opinion, that would be interesting to see.

Edit:
Oops, looks like those GDP figures are out. It's closer to 10% for Australia, and 18% for USA.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2290
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Maybe tone can save us again.

https://media.guim.co.uk/ca3b8eed1958ded15ff2922c0c6c58febc6368b1/0_0_3508_6052/1159.jpg
PornoPete
Posts: 3423
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Oh theres the deflection. Im asking you, not the democrats. AOC is as much a democrat as Sanders is. Which is far from the neoliberal politics of the democrats.


Actually vash demanding an alternative to a delusional fantasy documents that your girl couldn't get past the party she is registered with is the deflection.

Yup, and the think tank didnt like that did they? So they came up with the alternative cost blow up scenario. Have to wonder.


And into outright conspiracy theory. Those tricksy Koch brothers could have rigged he study to not help Sanders at all, but instead they went with it might save money and it might not. On f***ing purpose.

So, how about we compare Australia's universal health care cost, which is 3.6% of GDP, with the USA, at 3.7%. I think the $3 trillion figure might just be a very inaccurate prediction. Now if we get a less biased 'think tank' on the case for a more varied opinion, that would be interesting to see.


Yeah so if the overall spend goes up vash it will take up a larger % of GDP.
Vash
Posts: 5915
Location:

So you dont have an alternative plan for climate change. Guess you'll just have to support AOC since its the only one that takes the action required.

It's almost like libertarian think tanks have an agenda to reduce government spending as much as possible. You know, thats their philosophy after all. Straight to the conspiracy accusation bin.

So why did their initial study state that there would be a $2 trillion saving, then later say there could be a $3 trillion blow out, straight after Sanders thanked them for their assistance?

PP, all the countries with universal health care have far less GDP % health care spending than the USA. It might just be the $2 trillion surplus is accurate.

This says it all.
PornoPete
Posts: 3424
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So you dont have an alternative plan for climate change. Guess you'll just have to support AOC since its the only one that takes the action required.


Ah well that's not quite true. There's the democrats do nothing at all rather than AOC's plan plan. I could also wait to see what others come up with. You know people who actually understand the issues as opposed to grandstand on them.

Now vash we've already established that AOC's plan is based on the assumption that catastrophic climate change will be irreversible in 12 years and that the assumption isn't supported by the evidence. And you've yet to cover how universal healthcare is required to address climate change at all. So I could disagree purely on the fact is demanding at least 32 trillion that won't address climate change at all.


It's almost like libertarian think tanks have an agenda to reduce government spending as much as possible. You know, thats their philosophy after all. Straight to the conspiracy accusation bin.


Yes vash. Just to remind you of three hours ago.


But he went for the ole Marxist deep state conspiracy that all tin hat crazies go for.


But it’s (not) different when you do it. Moving right along


So why did their initial study state that there would be a $2 trillion saving, then later say there could be a $3 trillion blow out, straight after Sanders thanked them for their assistance?


Because vash in economic modelling you test multiple models based on varying assumptions. They didn't “later” say it would cost 3 trillion. The same study gave a range of possible outcomes.

So when you say one end of the range is there to f*** with Sanders because it's a neoliberal think tank when they are just doing normal economic modelling, yes you're engaging in conspiracy theories. They could have rigged to say no outcome saves money.


PP, all the countries with universal health care have far less GDP % health care spending than the USA. It might just be the $2 trillion surplus is accurate.


Yes vash and if the us doesn't reduce is total spend on healthcare it will continue to spend a higher % of GDP on healthcare. This really isn't difficult.

Now as for a 2 trillion *surplus* no country in the world achieves a *surplus* from its health spending. A surplus would require them to *make* money from supplying healthcare.
Vash
Posts: 5916
Location:

Now as for a 2 trillion *surplus* no country in the world achieves a *surplus* from its health spending. A surplus would require them to *make* money from supplying healthcare.


Heh wow. Your post isnt even worth replying to after that one.



Its happening! Feeeel the Bern.
PornoPete
Posts: 3425
Location: Melbourne, Victoria


Heh wow. Your post isnt even worth replying to after that one.


Oh why's that vash, because you don't have a response.

To be a surplus either they need to make money or the economy has to expand by more than the amount spent.

So seeing as you like to take about global GDP as a scawy figure. To deliver a surplus and not just a saving the US economy would need to expand by nearly half of global GDP in order to achieve a surplus.

Let me help with that. It isn't going to happen.

And you still can't show why it's necessary to deal with climate change.

Just to make it clear the candidates AOC backed in the midterms were disastrous. She doesn't enjoy grassroots support.

What's particularly funny about how stupid you are is that you've demonstrated repeatedly in this little exchange that you haven't read the IPCC report on climate change. You're not across the facts of the only thing that you say you vote about. You clearly didn't know what single payer health care actually is because you said it doesn't require government expenditure (despite what Sanders himself says). You don't know the difference between saving and surplus. f*** you didn't even know the difference between annual and total cost. And yet. The sheeple (who constitute more than 90% of the population who don't share your views) won't vote for policies you like because they are 'uneducated'.

Have you ever even done a back of the envelope of your carbon footprint? If we're all going to die it seems pretty irresponsible to not have at least an idea of what you contribute to the problem.
Vash
Posts: 5917
Location:

You know perfectly well why you dont deserve a response to your post. and if you don't know, then you're way more stupid than i thought. Noone is saying Bernie's plan is going to make money. It's going to save money. Just look at the countries that already have universal health.

And on climate change, well you sure got backed into a corner on that one, as i predicted.
PornoPete
Posts: 3426
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

You know perfectly well why you dont deserve a response to your post. and if you don't know, then you're way more stupid than i thought.

Yeah so throwing your toys out the basket when you've been spanked vash doesn't mean you won.

Noone is saying Bernie's plan is going to make money. It's going to save money. Just look at the countries that already have universal health.


Yeah you do because you keep using the word surplus. Like when you said cost of a single payer health system wouldn't end up on the government books and in fact there would be a 2 trillion surplus.

Quick explainer on why I'm not being "literal". You used the word surplus correctly in context. You just are to dumb to correctly draw the context.

And on climate change, well you sure got backed into a corner on that one, as i predicted.


Yep so you don't know what your carbon footprint is Mr climate change will kill everyone (not the politics of fear TM).

Really got me there when you were forced to concede the IPCC agrees with me, and therefore doesn't justify AOC's hair on fire hysterics, and you said the Democrat party were all neolibs with their head in the sand. That was a tough corner you put me in.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39745
Location: Other International

those two sentences don't logically follow in any way, but... what provider are you with?! Origin Qld charges 2c per kwH more for 25% "GreenPower" with a usual base rate of around 28c/kWh.
did you find the answer to this? my stupid one year period is up with my electricity provider so I'm spending some time this week looking at providers for a better deal, so maybe I can keep an eye out for a better business offering

(if I wasn't already convinced that the state should be the sole provider of energy in a country, spending an hour this morning trying to navigate the "market" would have)
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2291
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


The levy isn't to price externalities, it's to subsidise renewable projects, home and large scale.

It's part of Australia's unenviable award as the most expensive energy in the world. And we have so much coal. See that's how government enslaves the masses in Marxist programs. Bill them just to live.


f*** are you serious, it is capitalism that is creating slaves.
https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/careers/muffin-break-boss-fury-over-youth-who-wont-work-unpaid/news-story/57607ea9a1bbe52ba7746cff031306f2

I was just thinking on how i hadn't heard the trope about cultural marxism for a bit but here we are just before an election.
Vash
Posts: 5918
Location:

Heh yeah. And the wall of text moron tries to compare Infi's Marxism conspiracy with me stating that a libertarian think tank doing a costs study on universal health care, might just have a bias against such a policy.

That's why you just don't bother with PP. But it was fun until you realise he wont shut up and admit defeat. At least Infi does.
infi
Posts: 24264
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

the beauty of capitalism is that if you dont want to work for free, you don't have to. marxism on the other hand makes you do ALL SORTS OF STUFF otherwise you die in a work camp or prison.

What would happen if I didn't pay my 15% renewable energy levy? I AM A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR. the people who are on low incomes just get f***ed by Big Brother again.

edit: I worked for free all summer in 1997. for a union. it ended up getting me a job offer. kids these days....
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2292
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Lol kids these days, call someone in the press, have I got a pull myself up by the bootstraps story here.

I cannot wait for cultural Marxism to send us all to the salt mines, because that's what happens when you do social programs.
PornoPete
Posts: 3427
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Heh yeah. And the wall of text moron tries to compare Infi's Marxism conspiracy with me stating that a libertarian think tank doing a costs study on universal health care, might just have a bias against such a policy.


Because it's the same vash. In a situation where Sanders himself accepted the validity study you claimed the tricksy George Soros, sorry koch brothers revised their study to get Bernie.


That's why you just don't bother with PP. But it was fun until you realise he wont shut up and admit defeat. At least Infi does.


Haha poor little vash has been whipped and has to hide under the leg of his betters.
infi
Posts: 24265
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


Lol kids these days, call someone in the press, have I got a pull myself up by the bootstraps story here.


Working for free now for a future pay-off is offensive to a philosophy of greed and entitlemt.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2293
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Im guessing you had backing to work for free?

Not everyone has this. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.
Vash
Posts: 5919
Location:

the beauty of capitalism is that if you dont want to work for free, you don't have to. marxism on the other hand makes you do ALL SORTS OF STUFF otherwise you die in a work camp or prison.


How on earth did you manage to think this nugget up?
The Gulags were a creation by Stalin, it has nothing to do with Marxism. There's a reason his ideology was named 'Stalinism'. Think outside the libertarian circle jerk, Infi. Also, in Capitalism, it makes you do all sorts of stuff otherwise you die.
PornoPete
Posts: 3428
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Int main(){
Printf("real socialism has never been tried");
}
infi
Posts: 24266
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Im guessing you had backing to work for free?

Not everyone has this. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.


THEN DON'T DO IT. Jerks who think staff will work for free in menial jobs will end up with no staff. Quit crying about it and just get a different job. The entire proposition that someone would even work for free if there was nothing else in it for them is laughable. Like they had a gun to their head.

In certain circumstances people will want to work for free to prove their worth. They should be free to make that personal choice.
Vash
Posts: 5920
Location:

Heh PP as predictable as ever. Authoritarianism is not an economic system, FYI. But thats alittle too difficult for you to grasp.

Infi loves to reference Animal farm. The author is a Socialist and absolutely despised the Soviet Union. Why have there only been Authoritarian Socialist Governments? Easy. All you need to do is look at the U.S influences in their elections and hard sanctions on their economies. They have little choice but to tighten the grip to prevent the U.S from installing their own stooge. Oh and before you throw the conspiracy theory accusation, this is well documented in CIA files.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 665
Location: Sydney, New South Wales




f*** are you serious, it is capitalism that is creating slaves.


Capitalism, the system responsible for the unprecedented and exponential increase in basic living standards to the point where people at the poverty line live better than aristocrats from 100 years ago is responsible for slavery. If I expected anything more from complete retard socialists I'd be surprised.
Vash
Posts: 5921
Location:



Capitalism, the system responsible for the unprecedented and exponential increase in basic living standards to the point where people at the poverty line live better than aristocrats from 100 years ago is responsible for slavery. If I expected anything more from complete retard socialists I'd be surprised.


Yup. You know Marx said Capitalism was useful for rapid growth of technology. Capitalism is a system to progress to Socialism and eventually Communism, and can only do so when the conditions are met, which is when Capitalism reaches the end of the road. Capitalism cannot survive without human labor. And we know Automation is going to replace a hell of alot of jobs, and it's alot different compared to when the Computer was invented.
Marx was even talking about full Automation of the work force back in the 1800s.
PornoPete
Posts: 3429
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Heh PP as predictable as ever.


Don't you worry about $blank, let me worry about $blank.

Why have there only been Authoritarian Socialist Governments? Easy. All you need to do is look at the U.S influences in their elections and hard sanctions on their economies


Int main(){
Printf("real socialism has never been tried");
}

Let's look at Venezuela. They had US sanctions on about 10 people put in place by Obama until a month ago.

Yep 'sanctions' on the inner circle of Maduros government forces Maduro to become an authoritarian murderer.

Until then it was puppies rainbows and lollipops for all the children all the time.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39746
Location: Other International

What would happen if I didn't pay my 15% renewable energy levy?
hey what company are you with that charges this levy? is this in Queensland?
Vash
Posts: 5922
Location:


Looks like Manafort is going to jail for awhile. Alot of criminals associated with Trump. What's so great about this is the drain the swamp mantra that was constantly chanted. I'd love it if AOC started the real drain the swamp movement.
And people who watch fox news actually think there is a conspiracy within the FBI to get rid of Trump. Despite them investigating Hilary's emails. Such an odd bunch.

Yeah PP, putting hard sanctions on their state oil companies is really going to help them get out of this situation. The U.S can't wait to get their stooge in.
Every situation is different. Vietnam, invasion. Cuba, assassination attempts, hard sanctions. USSR, cold war, which starved their economy. The USSR, a union that went to space and had a booming economy. The USSR also dealt with very heavy casualties after WW2, and were at a severe disadvantage in competing with the U.S safely tucked across the atlantic.

Efforts by the United States to support anti-Communist forces in Chile date back to the late 1950s and reflect the rivalry between the United States and the Soviet Union for influence throughout the Third World. The growing strength of the Chilean left, along with continuing fragmentation by conservative and moderate political forces, became increasing concerns through the 1960 70s to the United States, which wanted to avoid the emergence of “another Cuba” in the Western Hemisphere. According to the Church Committee report, in their meeting with CIA Director Richard Helms and Attorney General John Mitchell on 15 September 1970 President Nixon and his National Security Advisor, Henry Kissinger, directed the CIA to prevent Allende from taking power. They were “not concerned [about the] risks involved,” according to Helms’ notes. In addition to political action, Nixon and Kissinger, according to Helms’s notes, ordered steps to “make the economy scream.”
https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/chile/

This shows President Nixon's CIA order to destroy Socialist economies. And obviously it goes beyond just sanctions.

Not all of the countries failed due to the U.S, especially Venezuela heavily relying on high oil prices to cover its social spending. This could easily happen in any economy. It's mismanagement, and despite Venezuela having a 70% private market. (that should convince you that its not even really Socialism in the first place)
So that is a Government failure, not a Socialism failure.

Also interestingly, there is still huge public support for Maduro. I suppose people know what the U.S is up to by endorsing the opposition leader.

Regardless of that, as i say often elsewhere, Capitalism & Socialism can't co exist. Capitalism will always win. But we know that Capitalism won't survive when technology replaces human labor.


PornoPete
Posts: 3430
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah PP, putting hard sanctions on their state oil companies is really going to help them get out of this situation. The U.S can't wait to get their stooge in.


Yes vash. Their stooge who won an election and doesn't need to butcher his people in the streets or refuse to allow good aid into the country.

Vash the US didn't place oil trade sanctions on Venezuela until this year.

You don't know what you're talking about. Just mind bendingly ignorant. Just so you know. The claim the us systematically forced socialist countries to become authoritarian through pressure on there economies is a) a socialist conspiracy theory (so well done Koch brothers boy); and b) fairly damaging to the idea the Nordic countries are socialist because the US didn't do it to them.
Vash
Posts: 5923
Location:

The stooge you speak of didn't win an election to the presidency. He's merely a puppet of the U.S who will privatise the state oil companies and sell it off to them as thanks.
So the U.S is circumventing and colluding in Venezuela's democracy.
They are already in a dire situation, and the U.S is putting on further sanctions shows they don't care about Venezuelan people, they are doing so to cripple the country further to create a path to a coup.

Projection again, PP. You have no clue how much the U.S influences and attempts to control other country's Governments.
This isn't a conspiracy. It's in the CIA files. Which you clearly passed over. What a surprise.

Remember Cuba and the constant assassination attempts?
And now Trump says military intervention is an option. How about all those other countries that are causing significant harm to it's people? You know what's missing from those countries? Rich oil reserves.

Except the Nordic countries aren't Socialist. I never claimed they were. The meme i posted went straight over your head. It was to ridicule people like you and Infi, as any social programs proposed in the U.S that the Nordic nations already have is quickly labelled Socialism. But then you say they aren't Socialist when it suits you.

Think outside your bubble for once.
PornoPete
Posts: 3431
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

The stooge you speak of didn't win an election to the presidency. He's merely a puppet of the U.S who will privatise the state oil companies and sell it off to them as thanks.
So the U.S is circumventing and colluding in Venezuela's democracy.
They are already in a dire situation, and the U.S is putting on further sanctions shows they don't care about Venezuelan people, they are doing so to cripple the country further to create a path to a coup.


Vash this paragraph is entirely fact free. Venezuela's democracy. Actually loled. Maduros forces are gunning people as we speak vash. As in right now.

Projection again, PP. You have no clue how much the U.S influences and attempts to control other country's Governments.
This isn't a conspiracy. It's in the CIA files. Which you clearly passed over. What a surprise.


You're not capable of reading vash. I said the idea that the US forces them to become authoritarian through economic manipulation is a conspiracy theory. And guess what. Your links don't undermine that argument.

Remember Cuba and the constant assassination attempts?


Castro routinely executed his political opponents vash. The idea that the US "forced" him to is delusional. Hence a conspiracy theory. See a good conspiracy theory always has some factual element that can allow for weirdos to contort off. The fact that Castro was openly hostile to the US from the outset and decided to park Soviet nukes 90 miles from the US just doesn't enter the equation.


Except the Nordic countries aren't Socialist. I never claimed they were. The meme i posted went straight over your head.


Oh good then you can clarify what you meant by this comment.

Had to unblock our local troll to see it. Can confirm, wasn't worth watching.


I assume you meant it wasn't worth watching, because you agreed with the points he was making and you already understood agreed with it all. I guess now you'll be strongly advocating for the abolition of the minimum wage because the Nordic countries don't have them.
Vash
Posts: 5924
Location:

Vash this paragraph is entirely fact free. Venezuela's democracy. Actually loled. Maduros forces are gunning people as we speak vash. As in right now.


Well they are. They have a constitution and separation of powers. And they have elections. So.. yeah, a democracy.
Just because the Government's military is killing people doesn't exclude this fact. Now are the elections legit? No conclusive evidence on that as yet. But seeing the massive gathering of crowd's that was posted on Reddit, and people assuming it was the anti Maduro rally, turns out it wasn't.


You're not capable of reading vash. I said the idea that the US forces them to become authoritarian through economic manipulation is a conspiracy theory. And guess what. Your links don't undermine that argument.


It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a theory grounded on facts. A Socialist nation is forced to be isolationist and authoritarian in the presence of a world dominated Capitalist economy. Think abit about it PP. Check the CIA files, and how many interventions the U.S does. They are literally forced to run their Government this way.

Castro routinely executed his political opponents vash. The idea that the US "forced" him to is delusional. Hence a conspiracy theory. See a good conspiracy theory always has some factual element that can allow for weirdos to contort off. The fact that Castro was openly hostile to the US from the outset and decided to park Soviet nukes 90 miles from the US just doesn't enter the equation.


Yes, they did. Many of them fled to the U.S. I dont agree with killing political opponents, but hey.. Guess what the U.S does? The same thing.
Not domestically mind you. But its the same thing. The U.S has killed alot of Socialists. So whys it so horrible for Socialist regimes to do it, but not the U.S?
Also, The U.S parked nukes in Europe. Cuba and the USSR had it in their right to do the same.
PornoPete
Posts: 3432
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Well they are. They have a constitution and separation of powers. And they have elections. So.. yeah, a democracy.
Just because the Government's military is killing people doesn't exclude this fact.


Ok Koch brothers boy. They have elections and when they don't go Maduro's way the army comes out and kills people. They have a "democracy". Proving convincingly again you don't get separation of powers.

The protests aren't really against Maduro. Yep uh huh.

It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a theory grounded on facts. A Socialist nation is forced to be isolationist and authoritarian in the presence of a world dominated Capitalist economy. Think abit about it PP. Check the CIA files, and how many interventions the U.S does. They are literally forced to run their Government this way.


Vash communist Russia was authoritarian by 1920. During that period the US pursued an isolationist foreign policy. It was only after WW2 US took up the world police mantle.

You are talking flatout conspiracy theory. Socialism is authoritarian.

But please go on I'm curious to see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Yes, they did. Many of them fled to the U.S. I dont agree with killing political opponents, but hey.. Guess what the U.S does? The same thing.
Not domestically mind you


Yeah so the "not domestically" is not a small deal vash. It's like the entire deal.

Also, The U.S parked nukes in Europe.


Where. Exactly where.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2294
Location: Sydney, New South Wales



Capitalism, the system responsible for the unprecedented and exponential increase in basic living standards to the point where people at the poverty line live better than aristocrats from 100 years ago is responsible for slavery. If I expected anything more from complete retard socialists I'd be surprised.

matey look up what unions have done for the workers over the past 100 years and come back to the basic living standard capitalism trope one more time.
Vash
Posts: 5925
Location:


Ok Koch brothers boy. They have elections and when they don't go Maduro's way the army comes out and kills people. They have a "democracy". Proving convincingly again you don't get separation of powers. The protests aren't really against Maduro. Yep uh huh.


Yup. Also not sure why you keep referencing the koch brothers? It's on paper they funded the study we previously talked about.
Venezuela have 5 different branches of Government over the previous 3.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Venezuela

Socialism is authoritarian.


Tell that to George Orwell. If he was alive.

Yeah so the "not domestically" is not a small deal vash. It's like the entire deal.


Uh huh. So murdering political opponents internationally is just fine then? Murder is only awful if its domestic. PP logic at its finest.

Where. Exactly where.
From the 1950s through the early 1990s, the U.S. government deployed nuclear weapons around the world, from the North Atlantic and Western Europe to South Korea, the Philippines, and the Western Pacific. Reflecting the East-West tensions of that period, the Pentagon deployed nearly 13,000 nuclear weapons outside the continental United States, with many of them (over 7,000) in NATO Europe. The deployments of nuclear weapons reflected U.S. and NATO war plans at the time as well as the conviction of U.S. government officials that the deployments would demonstrate the U.S. commitment to the security of alliance partners around the world; it was a sign to an adversary that military action against a U.S. ally carried the risk of escalating into nuclear warfare. As tensions with the Soviet Union finally ended during the late 1980s and early 1990s, however, the U.S. government withdrew thousands of nuclear weapons from overseas bases, leaving only residual deployments of several hundred weapons in NATO Europe (Germany, Belgium, Italy, and the United Kingdom)
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB197/index.htm
PornoPete
Posts: 3433
Location: Melbourne, Victoria


Yup. Also not sure why you keep referencing the koch brothers? It's on paper they funded the study we previously talked about.
Venezuela have 5 different branches of Government over the previous 3.


Yeah so this is simply another case of "vash doesn't understand". Go and find some commentary on how separation of powers has been working in Venezuela. You'll figure out why I refer to the Koch brothers. It was on the report. That's how conspiracy theories work.

Tell that to George Orwell. If he was alive.


You mean the guy whose seminal works are about socialist authoritarianism. And whose works you've never read.

Uh huh. So murdering political opponents internationally is just fine then? Murder is only awful if its domestic. PP logic at its finest.


If this wasn't apologia for political violence being done literally as we speak it would be hilarious you thought that was a dunk. The US murdered a lot of "political opponents" known as Nazis internationally vash. Yes there is a massive fundamental difference between murdering your domestic political opponents and foreign ones. And honestly it's difficult to believe someone could be as stupid as that.

And as for you list of deployments, so not 90 miles from a massive population centre then. You really need to stop strolling into those vash.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 666
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


matey look up what unions have done for the workers over the past 100 years and come back to the basic living standard capitalism trope one more time.


If you think unions created the 5 day work week and not productivity derived directly from the insane amount of capital generated during the capitalist inspired industrial revolution then I don't know what you are talking about.

Unions are a byproduct of capitalism and would not exist in any free form under communism. Unionism that is legislated is socialism. Unionism that is grassroots is....the free market and free association. You really think a totalitarian state would allow an uprising in its workforce? You really need to try harder.
Vash
Posts: 5926
Location:

Dazed, Unions are what kept Capitalism functioning. They wont be required under Communism. Especially in post scarcity.
If you like your sick leave, holiday leave, your weekends, and your liveable wage in Australia, you can thank the Unions.

This is the basis of a union - it is a united front of working people struggling for their mutual interests. Because the boss has access to a wide array of powers and resources, the only power the workers have in a capitalist hierarchy is to collectively deny the boss their labor, for without the workers, the machines do not move, and nothing of value is created.

So to say capital is the reason for the 5 day work week, you'd be very wrong.

https://i.imgur.com/hQV7jIk.jpg

AOC sure brings out the best in conservatives.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39747
Location: Other International

This is the basis of a union - it is a united front of working people struggling for their mutual interests.
I think the flip side of this is that a lot of people have no idea what unions do or what they're for - the only time they hear about them is when there's a strike (which screws them over somehow) or when some union boss is being hauled through the courts for misappropriation of funds.

There seems to be plenty of worker protections in place in many industries; there's solid base requirements for living wages/good conditions and then they can compete for workers on top of that.

Maybe I live in a bubble where very few people I know are in unions or care about then. I'm sure there are some industries and environments where they are still important but it kind of feels like our core worker requirements should protect most users. (There was a story on JJJ the other day about a road worker lollipop stick holder person making $110k a year, because they were in a union. That feels like a problem.)
Vash
Posts: 5928
Location:

It's a shame the Union movement is weakening, especially with the big issue of casualisation of the workforce. The worker protections were another feat of Unions, or at least, a Government that supports the Union movement.
Its amazing how many people i talk to hate Unions. I guess that's what years of News Corp or conservative radio does to people.

Thats quite a pay packet for that job. I wonder what the average lollipop person earns. I suppose thats one of the few downsides of Unions, pushing for unreasonable wages and conditions. Though i'd think its not common for Unions to achieve that level of wage increases for low skilled work.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39748
Location: Other International

Thats quite a pay packet for that job. I wonder what the average lollipop person earns.
They had 3 people call up about it - IIRC one was $60k, one was $80k, and the union person was $110k.
infi
Posts: 24267
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

hey what company are you with that charges this levy? is this in Queensland?


this is a federal government levy. you can see in the attached pic that a levy of $909.94 is 15% of ex-GST bill.

https://i.imgur.com/hsph22Z.png
matey look up what unions have done for the workers over the past 100 years and come back to the basic living standard capitalism trope one more time.


unions don't generate wealth. they negotiate the price of labour. collective bargaining is a facet of a market system, don't think labour unions are special. businesses negotiate collectively too.

your child-like understanding of how the economy works makes your posts about as helpful as the bartender's.
Vash
Posts: 5929
Location:

unions don't generate wealth. they negotiate the price of labour. collective bargaining is a facet of a market system, don't think labour unions are special. businesses negotiate collectively too.


Well, Unions allow workers to claim more wealth from their labor from their employer, where otherwise it's in the employer's best interest to pay as little as possible in the negotiation with the worker.
You run a nursing home, correct? Or was it child care, i forget. You would love to pay peanuts to your workers so you get more profit. Without your workers, you don't generate wealth.
infi
Posts: 24268
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I pay the going rate, otherwise the staff leave and go elsewhere. It's not rocket science.
Vash
Posts: 5930
Location:

I pay the going rate, otherwise the staff leave and go elsewhere. It's not rocket science.


Yep, and those going rates are set by a regulatory Government body. In your libertarian paradise, you would probably enjoy such a department being cut, so you can pay your workers less, and they'll also be paid less in other jobs so they'd likely stay.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39749
Location: Other International

this is a federal government levy. you can see in the attached pic that a levy of $909.94 is 15% of ex-GST bill.
oh that's why I couldn't find it - it's not 15% for one thing, it's 15% for two things. ta
infi
Posts: 24269
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Wrong, The award is the bare legal minimum and about 70% of my staff are paid over-award because I have to compete against other aged care providers and the hospital sector. And the labour market in general. I want to pay my workers even more, but due to govt interference (pricing regulation and funding cuts) I cannot.

Wage rates are a direct consequence of profitability. You literally have no clue.

Read up on what's happening to truck driver salaries in the US. They are going ballistic. Generic low skill jobs, with low inconvenience level will always attract the lowest rates of pay.

We are not talking about 7/11 here. Most business operators are very conscious of their reputation as an employer of choice.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2295
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/04/trump-suggested-invading-venezuela-report

Just going to leave this here
PornoPete
Posts: 3434
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Wow what a story. Thank god the guardian is there to cover dinner conversation through third hand sources.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 667
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/04/trump-suggested-invading-venezuela-report

Just going to leave this here


How many of these stories have there been in the last 2 years that have never seen another sliver of media attention because, as with this one, there is literally no additional substance than uncorroborated garbage?

Yep, and those going rates are set by a regulatory Government body. In your libertarian paradise, you would probably enjoy such a department being cut, so you can pay your workers less, and they'll also be paid less in other jobs so they'd likely stay.


He'd probably enjoy the department being cut, so tax burden is reduced, so his profit margins increase, so he can offer more competitive wages to his employees, so other businesses can offer more competitive wages, so both employees and employers are better off.

If you want to know what a minimum wage regulation does, Vash, go look at your local Maccas and observe all of the automated ordering systems installed to replace jobs normally given to 14 year olds happy just to get enough money to go to a movie with their mates on the weekend.
Vash
Posts: 5931
Location:

If you want to know what a minimum wage regulation does, Vash, go look at your local Maccas and observe all of the automated ordering systems installed to replace jobs normally given to 14 year olds happy just to get enough money to go to a movie with their mates on the weekend.


If you want to know what automation does dazed, goto China and see automation replacing jobs despite the wages being very low. Removing minimum wage is not going to stop automation.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39750
Location: Other International

Wage rates are a direct consequence of profitability. You literally have no clue.
Not always true (e.g., the startup sector, where you can earn a 7 figure salary in a company that has been making a loss for a decade, or I guess the public sector where they throw a dart at a board to figure out what you should get paid).
Read up on what's happening to truck driver salaries in the US. They are going ballistic. Generic low skill jobs, with low inconvenience level will always attract the lowest rates of pay.
Not quite sure on your point here? Truck driving is a low skill job with a huge inconvenience level. Wages there aren't going up because the industry is getting more profitable - I was always under the impression that it was a bit of a knife edge margin kinda business - they're going up because the huge inconvenience level (plus threat of automation) competition for drivers, aren't they? Also don't truck drivers have the biggest union in the US?
infi
Posts: 24270
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Not always true (e.g., the startup sector,


wages are being paid on the assumption of future profitability out of shareholder capital or debt. they are not being paid a large salary on the promise of a loss.

Wages there aren't going up because the industry is getting more profitable


Wages are going up due to the growth in the logistics especially parcel industry. Partly driven by safe work regulations enforcing rest break for truck drivers and vehicle technology which can now verify these breaks.
Nmag
Posts: 1129
Location: Sydney, New South Wales



Well, Unions allow workers to claim more wealth from their labor from their employer, where otherwise it's in the employer's best interest to pay as little as possible in the negotiation with the worker.
You run a nursing home, correct? Or was it child care, i forget. You would love to pay peanuts to your workers so you get more profit. Without your workers, you don't generate wealth.


If you're in demand you don't need a Union. Make choices take responsibility. Find a way. People are very good at making excuses.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 668
Location: Sydney, New South Wales



If you want to know what automation does dazed, goto China and see automation replacing jobs despite the wages being very low. Removing minimum wage is not going to stop automation.


Here we are listening to you argue communism is good for the worker, and you use China as an example. How are the low skilled workers in China faring, Vash? Better or worse than low skilled workers in capitalist countries?
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39752
Location: Other International

wages are being paid on the assumption of future profitability out of shareholder capital or debt. they are not being paid a large salary on the promise of a loss.
My example was kinda dumb because startups don't normally operate on such highly overblown salaries. Generally they are given equity or options as compensation and incentive. The high salaries now are more a result of ludicrously cheap and plentiful capital and stupid competitive pressure on housing in big commercial hubs.

But anyway, my point was more that profitability is just one of the factors that influence wages, in some markets, some of the time. (Maybe it's a technicality but I see "hope of future profitability" as different from "actual profitability", possibly just because I'm snarky on so many bad businesses that exist to seemingly just burn through investor capital.)

I think profitability impacts things like executive compensation wayyyy more dramatically more than salaries, especially in large corporates.

I listened to a podcast yesterday about how Clinton triggered the wave of share option packaging in the 90s by clamping down on executive compensation; that combined with the share buybacks going on now really have me convinced that a) these people literally have no idea what they're doing, other than trying to extract capital from a business to the executive as fast as they possibly can with little to no regard for the employees or the shareholders (seriously the people in the Clinton era apparently thought that granting share options was "free") and b) there is
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39754
Location: Other International


Here is an interesting and very long new article/critique on MMT: https://jacobinmag.com/2019/02/modern-monetary-theory-isnt-helping (I have not finished reading it)


Vash
Posts: 5934
Location:

https://i.imgur.com/KLXNPb5.jpg

But apparently the libertarian think tank says its going to be $3tn a year more expensive!
infi
Posts: 24271
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Universal healthcare is a good thing, provided you can also choose private health care. The NHS is s***. Just ask anyone who uses it. You have a single GP for life and no choice.

The US universal healthcare proposed by the crazy bartender would outlaw private health care.
Vash
Posts: 5935
Location:

Universal healthcare is a good thing, provided you can also choose private health care. The NHS is s***. Just ask anyone who uses it. You have a single GP for life and no choice.

The US universal healthcare proposed by the crazy bartender would outlaw private health care.


No problem with that as long as it's like Medicare in Australia. I've never required private insurance, the public system is fantastic here. And you certainly aren't stuck to one GP.
PornoPete
Posts: 3435
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

But apparently the libertarian think tank says its going to be $3tn a year more expensive!


Here comes vash with a meme to undermine a study he hasn't read and his idol praised.

I look forward to your further defence of killing people in the streets as a demonstration of separation of powers.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39755
Location: Other International

The NHS is s***. Just ask anyone who uses it.
Hi, I used the NHS.

I lived in London and saw two different GPs (possibly three? I can't remember if one was a GP or a specialist of some type) within the space of about 3 months. I had two hospital visits including blood tests and Xrays. I just walked (literally, walked to hospital from my place) into the hospital, gave them my name and postcode (which is all they needed to look up me in their magic system), waited maybe 1.5 hours each time after triage. I had followup appointments with the GPs; the longest I had to wait I think was a week.

At no time did I have to pay any money for anything.

I don't know why you think you have a single GP for life, it is trivial to change. The only challenge is whether or not your local GP office is accepting new registrations. I had multiple GP offices nearby; one probably less than 30s walk from my front door and one maybe 5 mins away.

Anyway I had nothing but good care from start to finish and was most impressed with the total lack of bureaucracy. I know I can probably get "free" treatment here in Australia but I've had multiple GP visits and specialist visits in the last year since being back and I feel like I'm paying a fortune each time. I am sure everyone has a different experience but most people I knew in London talked positively about the NHS.
Vash
Posts: 5936
Location:

Hehe PP. U.S Police murder around 100 people per 100,000. Those numbers don't seem far off Venezuelan Government killings. Guess by your logic, those American separation of powers don't work so good.
Bit of a poor bait when it can be so easily be debunked like all your arguments.
infi
Posts: 24272
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I am glad you had a positive experience, trog.
Raven
Posts: 9651
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Was vaguely thinking about this the other day, but I wonder how a healthcare system could be made to work (to be paid for) by saying that all citizens will pay a flat x% of their income to be covered, offset by a floor value, OR they can take out private cover. The caveat on the private cover is that the private insurance providers are only permitted to use DOB, gender and city of residence to determine the rates for a person, and all persons with matching data of those criteria must be identical - and it has to cover *everything*. Yes, the details would be difficult to get right, but in principle I could see it working.
Vash
Posts: 5937
Location:

The problem i have with private insurance, and any form of privatized health care, is that it falls into the issue that health becomes profit driven rather than based on positive health outcomes. This is evident on why the U.S system is so far behind the rest of the first world. Heck, even the poor country Cuba has a higher life expectancy than the U.S.
Shareholders demand higher profit, which private health insurers will ensure that insurance claims are fought against, and that health cover of pre existing conditions send premiums sky high.
Those problems dont exist under a public system. And people try to argue that a public system can't match the health care of a private one, which simply isn't true. Our Public system have the best doctors. All you're really getting under insurance is luxury hospital options and dental cover.
PornoPete
Posts: 3436
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Hehe PP. U.S Police murder around 100 people per 100,000. Those numbers don't seem far off Venezuelan Government killings. Guess by your logic, those American separation of powers don't work so good.
Bit of a poor bait when it can be so easily be debunked like all your arguments.


Yes vash the police being involved in fatal shootings is the same thing as bringing the army out to kill protesters when an election doesn't go your way.

"Debunked".

It's a swing and miss from poor old vash. Still producing apologia for unflinching political violence.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2296
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Why have the murdoch press chosen Pell as the hill to die on in their weird culture war?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/feb/27/news-corp-columnists-declare-cardinal-pell-innocent-and-a-scapegoat?CMP=soc_568


Rukh
Posts: 1127
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Vash, according to wikipedia at least the U.S. murder rate is 5.35 per 100,000.

Can you explain where you got a figure of 100 per 100,000 for homicides committed by police?
PornoPete
Posts: 3437
Location: Melbourne, Victoria


Can you explain where you got a figure of 100 per 100,000 for homicides committed by police?


His anus. He got it from his anus.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 669
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

If you look here you can calculate the US police homicide rate is around 0.3 per 100,000. Bit different to the 100 per 100,000. I don't think little Vash would want to get into the homicide rate argument considering 2012 socialist utopia Venezuela has the second highest homicide rate in the world.
PornoPete
Posts: 3438
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yes but notwithstanding vash may have misstated the problem by three orders of magnitude, the rate is a distinct issue from the true characterisation of the violence.

Police shooting people is simply not the same thing as bringing the army out to overturn an election result.

The army could potentially overturn an election result without killing anyone, instead just relying on the threat of force. Hence the term bloodless coup.

It isn't a valid comparison full stop. It isn't issue of magnitude but of category.
Nmag
Posts: 1130
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


I found some links for you Vash:

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/democratic-socialist-countries/

https://www.flightcentre.com.au/

https://www.alliedpickfords.com.au/international?cmp=203925704&ref=international&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4bnvzN_f4AIVBY-PCh1-igGnEAAYAyAAEgKcXPD_BwE

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Get-A-Clue-DVD-2005-Region-4/223412335169?epid=118451031&hash=item340469b241:g:OvMAAOSwSpxZ5gj9:rk:2:pf:0


Vash
Posts: 5938
Location:

Homicide between civilians, Dazed. Police killing Civilians is on behalf of Government. Yes i didn't fact check my numbers like i usually do.
But the argument is the same. Alot of people die at the hands of the U.S Government, and not just domestic Civilians.
PP loves to casually brush aside murder the U.S commits internationally, and it seems domestically now too.

Now by me pointing out that the U.S Government commits alot of murder of innocent people does not excuse what Venezuela is doing. It's simply pointing out the hypocrisy of criticising Venezula vs excusing America's actions.
Police are often not prosecuted for excessive use of force and murder. A failure of it's multiple branches of Government perhaps?

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/jZCRJGBtSGKVioT9XftMCIR4_sA=/0x0:580x308/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:580x308):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3733828/The_Economist_police_shootings.0.png
PornoPete
Posts: 3439
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yes i didn't fact check my numbers like i usually do.

lol.

But the argument is the same. Alot of people die at the hands of the U.S Government, and not just domestic Civilians.
PP loves to casually brush aside murder the U.S commits internationally, and it seems domestically now too.


Yeah so this is a case of not being able to hold two things in your head at once.

You need to try really hard now vash.

Killing your political opponents domestically is not the same thing as killing your political opponents internationally. On this point see again WW2 in which the US "murdered" thousands of political opponents known as Nazis.

The police are not enforcing or upending political outcomes in the United States vash. It isn't really possible to simplify civics further.

This is why police shootings are not an example of hypocrisy. And claiming the US is not in a position to criticize Venezuela's political violence is precisely excusing it. But let's not forget, you've previously stated that Maduro violence is the fault of the US.

. A failure of it's multiple branches of Government perhaps?


Don't you worry about $blank, let me worry about $blank.

It's really entertaining to watch you rattle off words you planly don't understand in contexts you don't understand.
Vash
Posts: 5939
Location:

Murder is Murder PP.
Internationally vs Domestically, its irrelevant. The Government of the U.S uses it's power to murder.

Oh yes, it always falls back to Nazis. How about you look at the CIA files and see the U.S coup attempts, assassinations of many country's democratically elected leaders world wide?
The Vietnam invasion was purely political, untold millions of innocents dead. Not at the hands of Socialism, that's for sure.
Iraq war? Oopsie.

But no, those were held in good intentions, to free the people. Utter nonsense.

The hypocrisy is widespread when it comes to the killings caused by Capitalism. So if you don't want to be called a hypocrite, then you call out the U.S, and not just the Socialist 'utopia' Venezuela. At this point it becomes clear most right leaning people here don't read any further into issues than the front page of a News Corp paper.
Nitro
Posts: 2294
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
Thank you Rukh for the fact check on that one, lol...
PornoPete
Posts: 3440
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Murder is Murder PP.
Internationally vs Domestically, its irrelevant. The Government of the U.S uses it's power to murder.


Vash this is a childishly simple statement. Killing people isn't always murder even in the criminal law, so the idea that there is no distinction to be drawn between anyone who is killed by a government employee in any context is beyond stupid.

The requirements of keeping a country's citizens safe can and do require killing people from opposed international powers. Those opposed powers are invariably opposed politically. When it happens it's called a "war".

The Vietnam invasion was purely political, untold millions of innocents dead. Not at the hands of Socialism, that's for sure.


Really? see WW2. Is Vietnam in the US or not vash? The principle isn't does vash agree with them politically. But while you're riding your high horse on deep (lol) knowledge of the CIA why don't you look at the human rights record of the Vietcong/North Vietnamese. I'll give you a clue, they are why we have a large Vietnamese community here.

In any event, this is a red-herring you've thrown out because your equally ridiculous claim that US police shootings are comparable to what is happening in Venezuela has been shutdown. Is it only the US Vash or is Australia caught up in the "murder is murder" reasoning. There was a fatal police shooting on Bourke street a few months back vash. Does that count?

At this point it becomes clear most right leaning people here don't read any further into issues than the front page of a News Corp paper.


Yeah ok Koch brothers boy. Maybe when you rise above posting r/latestagecapitalism talking points you'll be in a position to discuss where people get their news from.
Vash
Posts: 5940
Location:

The requirements of keeping a country's citizens safe can and do require killing people from opposed international powers.


Oh the naivety. Just think long and hard on this one again PP. Maybe after reading those CIA files. Or is that propaganda for you aswell?

Hmm, only 60,000 Vietnamese refugees left for Australia over a 7 year period. Perhaps it was more due to the severe aftermath of the American War than anything to do with the Vietcong.

The numbers count.
America is the biggest offender of the first world for police murdering civilians. The Government isn't doing anything about this.
You say the military is being used to kill people in Venezuela. Yet that number is minuscule compared to how many are killed by US Police.
A total of 126 people have died in Venezuela by the hands of the Government.

3 people a day are killed by U.S police, and its been like that for a long time.

So now you're probably thinking, its entirely different, military vs police. Semantics. Both are arms of the Government. At least in Venezula's defence, These killings will end upon stability of the Government and it's country.
The U.S on the other hand...
PornoPete
Posts: 3441
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Oh the naivety.


Hehe it really is very entertaining to watch you convince yourself you're not a idiot.

For example.
Hmm, only 60,000 Vietnamese refugees left for Australia over a 7 year period. Perhaps it was more due to the severe aftermath of the American War than anything to do with the Vietcong.


You don't know what a refugee is do you vash? I like how this tries to sidestep the issue but because you don't understand what a refugee is confirms my point.

As for your twaddle about police shootings, even if it granted they are all murders, and they aren't, they don't arise from a single incident at the order of the president.

For it even begin to be comparable they'd need to be as a result of a single event. Like what is happening now in Venezuela.

And again vash minimises the violence. Only 126. What's an acceptable number of people killed when you lose an election vash?

So now you're probably thinking, its entirely different, military vs police. Semantics. Both are arms of the Government


That separation of powers concept is something you just don't understand is it vash.


Edit

Wow. This didn't hit me properly at first. Just wow
. At least in Venezula's defence, These killings will end upon stability of the Government and it's country.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39756
Location: Other International

So now you're probably thinking, its entirely different, military vs police
in first world countries, it's entirely different
Vash
Posts: 5941
Location:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+refugee

Hope that helps you understand what a refugee is PP.

Maduro didn't order any killings. As what happens with any protest or riot, things get out of hand with military vs protestors. Deaths during protests has happened in almost every country, including the U.S.

And what makes you think he lost the election? He won it. They're a democracy as much as you pretend to believe they aren't.
Their separation of powers or constitution obviously prevents him from being ousted mid term, so just like Americans have to deal with Trump, i suppose Venezuela has to deal with Maduro until the next election.

Comparing deaths at the hands of U.S police, yes the number is small in Venezuela. That doesn't disrespect the dead, it's pointing out a matter of fact.

Now by me saying all this doesn't mean i support Venezuela in anyway. I'm just laying out the facts. And how the atrocities of the U.S is completely ignored, at least by the majority.
PornoPete
Posts: 3442
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Hope that helps you understand what a refugee is PP.


Yeah so the thing about the Dunning Kruger effect vash is that it lets people talk with confidence about things they don't understand. Especially when they talk to experts.

I don't have to google what refugee means because I have this:

https://i.ibb.co/74bChDg/MVIMG-20190301-201337.jpg

At 600 pages, it's somewhat more comprehensive than the wiki entry. I'm sure you've got a copy and studied under both authors as I did. I'll keep my own counsel on what a refugee is. Thanks for using google though.

And what makes you think he lost the election? He won it. They're a democracy as much as you pretend to believe they aren't.


The thing about elections you "win" when you ban the opposition from running.....

in first world countries, it's entirely different


Well, Hallelujah. Only took 4 years.
Vash
Posts: 5942
Location:

Okay. So you've read a law book on refugees. Now tell me what definition of refugee is that i supposedly am 'missing'
And you think you're an expert on refugees since you've read a book. That's pretty amusing PP.

You've completely missed the meaning again of the Dunning Kruger effect.

Elections aren't elections without an opposition. The two opposition parties gained 20% and 10% of the vote.
Now were the elections rigged? It's possible. It sure happens in alot of other countries. But apparently Venezuela has a very solid democratic process, contrary to popular belief.
And when you have the U.S saying it was an illegitimate election, well you gotta wonder. Especially with it's history of trying to, and succeeding, in killing democratically elected leaders they dont like.

But what is truly anti democracy, is for outside powers (the U.S and allies) to claim an unelected leader as interim President.
Could you imagine if other nations tried to do the same to the U.S or any of its allies?
PornoPete
Posts: 3443
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Okay. So you've read a law book on refugees. Now tell me what definition of refugee is that i supposedly am 'missing' And you think you're an expert on refugees since you've read a book. That's pretty amusing PP.


So that's a no on you having a copy then vash. How many books do you own/have read on the subject? I know the answer is 0 by the way. Why don't you tell me your favourite refugee case? Mine is Ward. A decision of the Canadian Supreme Court. The citation is [1993] 2 SCR 689. I also quite like Ben Saul's writing on the subject and his writings on the operation of national security laws.

That book isn't any old book on refugee law. It's the definitive book on the specific subject of who is and isn't a refugee and why. Around the world. The reason you don't know this is that you don't know anything about refugee law. Like any of the things you talk about here.

As far as the definition goes, I'll give you a hint. Non-wartime refugees get produced when...... (its political persecution). The refugees who came after 1975 were all hunted out by the socialists. And there were a lot more of them than just those that came to Australia.

Elections aren't elections without an opposition. The two opposition parties gained 20% and 10% of the vote.

Might need to lift that fact check game vash.
Vash
Posts: 5943
Location:

Naturally, PP. You're required to read Law.
And there is far more to a subject than the Laws that cover it. This is where the Dunning Kruger effect comes in. You claim to be an expert in a subject, simply because you studied the law that applies to refugees.
That doesn't make you an expert about refugees. It just makes you a Lawyer.
Now if i tried to pretend i knew the law better than you, then that would be the Dunning Kruger effect.
You have the illusion of thinking that you're an expert over me on the matter, simply because you read a book on it. This is a spot on example.

Right, so you claim that *all* refugees escaping Vietnam was purely because of Socialists. Do you care to back that up with evidence?
I'm sure there were many who wanted to live in a Capitalist society, and then there were many who simply wanted a better standard of living, which could not be provided as yet by a country that was completely devastated by American invasion.
Which is more likely? The Socialists hunting them down, or the country is in ruins, economically, and infrastructure wise. It takes a long time to rebuild after a war, and especially a country that had the most bombs thrown on it than any other in history.

The onus is on you to disprove the claim i made about the election. Find me something that isn't an opinion piece on why Maduro wasn't legitimately elected.
PornoPete
Posts: 3444
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

You have the illusion of thinking that you're an expert over me on the matter, simply because you read a book on it. This is a spot on example.

Aww vash doesn't have a real response so he tries to act smart, and instead proves he doesn't understand. 'Refugee' is a legal status vash. There is nothing else to know except the law when it comes to the definition.

And here is the proof you don't know what you are talking about:

Which is more likely? The Socialists hunting them down, or the country is in ruins, economically, and infrastructure wise. It takes a long time to rebuild after a war, and especially a country that had the most bombs thrown on it than any other in history.


One of these things makes them a refugee and one of them doesn't. See not all migrants are refugees vash.

Right, so you claim that *all* refugees escaping Vietnam was purely because of Socialists. Do you care to back that up with evidence?

No vash. I'm not going to link to the freely available history of the Vietnam war you know nothing about. You can get off your ass and read more than the introductory paragraph of the wiki entry.

The onus is on you to disprove the claim i made about the election. Find me something that isn't an opinion piece on why Maduro wasn't legitimately elected.

no just because you blather bats*** crazy doesn't mean I'm obligated to debunk it. The onus is on you to prove that Maduro didn't rig his election because almost every western leader has condemned the election and said he should give up power. The onus is on you to prove you know something they don't. I look forward to your definitely not a conspiracy theory answer.
Nmag
Posts: 1131
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Vash, do you sell Amway?
dazedandconfused
Posts: 670
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Maduro banned his primary opponents from contesting the election, Vash. If that isn't rigging an election I don't know what is.

The great thing about socialists is that they always hang their hat on the defense of real socialism whilst simultaneously saying it's not real socialism.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 671
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

If they just used more socialism, this wouldn't happen.
Raven
Posts: 9653
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
If wages are going from $14 to $15 an hour, but hours are going from 30 to 20 hours, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are much bigger issues than a minimum wage increase affecting their business.

Not sure what the hell that has to do with socialism, but whatever, it's a buzzword these days so better throw it in there.
infi
Posts: 24274
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Shorten wants to increase the minimum wage to a "living wage". The numbskull thinks you can legislate prosperity. More hours will be cut, casualised and shoved off into the gig economy. But whatever - I am fairly well resigned to a Labor government by now.

It is like when you let your kid paint. Just accept there will be some cleaning up afterwards.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 672
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

If wages are going from $14 to $15 an hour, but hours are going from 30 to 20 hours, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are much bigger issues than a minimum wage increase affecting their business.

Not sure what the hell that has to do with socialism, but whatever, it's a buzzword these days so better throw it in there.


To each according to his needs, right Raven?
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39760
Location: Other International

If wages are going from $14 to $15 an hour, but hours are going from 30 to 20 hours, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that there are much bigger issues than a minimum wage increase affecting their business.
I'm no rocket scientist but but I don't get what the bigger issues are that you're referring to? it seems to me that if wages go up then hours going down is a likely outcome, and how much they go down will be a function of many variables, including how many staff you have?

this feels kinda like one of those election promises that simply won't get honoured, or if it is it will just be in a really trivial way ("we saved Australia by increasing the minimum wage by $0.02/hour, yor welcom").

I like how my hope for a rational government is now based on expectations of their failure to honour their commitments
PornoPete
Posts: 3445
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Gee so those democrats really covered themselves in glory this week. The party of anti-racism can't quite bring itself to condemn anti-Semitism.
Raven
Posts: 9654
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
I'm no rocket scientist but but I don't get what the bigger issues are that you're referring to?

A 9% increase in wages should not result in a 50% decrease in hours. At that kind of wage it would take two hours to make up the salary increase.

If they need to cut back hours so significantly that workers lose 50% of their hours, there were bigger, existing issues.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2297
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


https://www.9news.com.au/2019/03/08/15/31/low-wage-growth-not-all-bad-minister

lol a rising tide lifts all boats, except when it doesn't and that's not bad.

This is what LNP believes.

The child with the paints is the current government.
infi
Posts: 24275
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Corman is 100% correct. Shorten's intention to artificially increase wages will trigger mass unemployment and recession.

A flexible labour system is the best way to secure long term growth and employment security. (of course it's no so good for poor performing employees - they get fired).
taggs
Posts: 6596
Location:


As a guy who studied and worked in economics/finance for some time, a per capita recession is legit something I have never come across in either. Does it mean it is not a thing? Iunno get into the literature.

I'm sure someone has posted/published summin either way

Edit: great 1am wisdom.

Anyway, maybe the first time ever I've agreed with Ross gittins: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/forget-what-s-happening-in-the-economy-just-latch-onto-a-scary-label-20190308-p512pe.html


PornoPete
Posts: 3446
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Thanks for the article. Was an interesting read. The final paragraphs were particularly damning.

It would be interesting to try to trace the use of the term over the last week.
Vash
Posts: 5944
Location:

https://i.imgur.com/8vO8ZGq.png

It's funny how the right are trying everything they can to smear her. AOC is dancing? Outrageous. She used to be a waitress? She dumb af.
And they are completely blind to Trump's dumb & his behavior which can't even be compared to AOC.
fpot
Posts: 26525
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Drunk and posting in the politics thread.

Laughing at how people still don't think trump is anything more than a Russian stooge and even more laughably, that he is actually doing well.

I'll be back when Mueller's report and the entire truth is out. I'll be making certain people f***ing eat it. Till they f***ing choke. See you then.
PornoPete
Posts: 3447
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Adam Schiff has backed away from.thr Russian collision story now. But fpot believes.

Mueller isn't going to confirm your fever dreams fpot.

He hasn't landed a single "collusion" indictment. Not one in 2 years. If he coulda he woulda little boy. Nobody's gonna be eating s***.
Phooks
Posts: 3387
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2298
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Corman is 100% correct. Shorten's intention to artificially increase wages will trigger mass unemployment and recession.

A flexible labour system is the best way to secure long term growth and employment security. (of course it's no so good for poor performing employees - they get fired).

This is all the bulls*** people roll out for establishing a minimum wage in the first place.

The great neoliberal experiment has come to an end.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 673
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Drunk and posting in the politics thread.


Sounds like your sober posts to be honest.

She used to be a waitress? She dumb af.


She dumb af because she doesn't understand basic economics and thinks deficit spending is not the same thing as borrowing along with the multitude of other reasons she's an idiot that have been thoroughly documented in this thread.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2299
Location: Sydney, New South Wales



She dumb af because she doesn't understand basic economics and thinks deficit spending is not the same thing as borrowing along with the multitude of other reasons she's an idiot that have been thoroughly documented in this thread.

A trillion dollars on a war is fine, but try to do anything for the world we live in and it is muh deficit.
PornoPete
Posts: 3448
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

This is all the bulls*** people roll out for establishing a minimum wage in the first place.

O_o flexible labour market was the reason for a legislated minimum wage?



A trillion dollars on a war is fine, but try to do anything for the world we live in and it is muh deficit.


I can't believe it's not cliche.
Vash
Posts: 5945
Location:

A trillion dollars on a war is fine, but try to do anything for the world we live in and it is muh deficit.


Oh yeah. American Imperialism, A-OK.
Social program spending? Socialism!#@*&^ We'll go broke!
Now back to that pretty chart of the many countries with healthy social spending...
PornoPete
Posts: 3449
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So redhat if you want to handle your point after

Oh yeah. American Imperialism, A-OK.


I found this for you. It's good for your back too.
Nmag
Posts: 1133
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Australia is shamefully wasting billions on overseas handouts to corrupt governments and unaccountable NGOs

Pauline Hanson, for example, continues to call for the entire, and much diminished, development assistance budget to be cut, Wong says. She says that Australia is shamefully wasting billions on overseas handouts to corrupt governments and unaccountable NGOs. It is a call sadly echoed by at least some members of the Liberal National party. All of us who believe in a strong and generous Australia must push back and articulate why Australia's international development programs matter; to the lives of those in our region, to our influence in our region, to our own national interest.


Why does Wong want to send more money to corrupt governments and unaccountable NGOs?

Seems to me like wong is very wong.

Article by red propaganda outlet: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/mar/12/penny-wong-says-labor-unable-to-entirely-reverse-coalitions-cuts-to-aid-budget
infi
Posts: 24277
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Laughing at how people still don't think trump is anything more than a Russian stooge and even more laughably, that he is actually doing well.

I'll be back when Mueller's report and the entire truth is out. I'll be making certain people f***ing eat it. Till they f***ing choke. See you then.


lmfao there is no collusion. and mueller will confirm it. i look forward to the report. trump is the best show on earth!
PornoPete
Posts: 3454
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Pelosi backed away from impeachment yesterday. He's gonna serve a full term and stands a decent chance of winning a second.

Fpot is going to find the next few months tough. Pity him infi. He hasn't been able to call someone a piece of s*** in months.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 674
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

For fpot, Vash, SirRedhat, Raven and anyone else suffering. My gift to you.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2300
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Australia is shamefully wasting billions on overseas handouts to corrupt governments and unaccountable NGOs

Maybe Pauline is talking out of her racist arse again? This took me a minute to find.
https://dfat.gov.au/aid/who-we-work-with/ngos/ancp/Pages/australian-ngo-cooperation-program.aspx
NGO 2018-19 Budget Estimate: $132.5 million


Total aid budget is 4 billion much of which pays for itself with increased trade and not having to spend money on military.

The only thing we're suffering is your dumb posts Dazed.
PornoPete
Posts: 3455
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Common redhat your better then that. Don't pull a vash.

See let me help you.

When you call someone dumb, it's best not to make stupid assertions in the same post.

For example finding the NGO budget when the statement is for NGOs and *governments*.

Maybe Pauline is being racist. But if it's so easy to demolish her point then do it.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2301
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Hanson's s*** is dropping NGOs in the same bucket as governments which she thinks are all corrupt if they're from poor nations.

You know what is closer to a billion? The half billion given just for giggles to the people that are going to save the great barrier reef.

You know what's a closer number to how much we give NGOs than a billion? The 30 million foxtel got for doing nothing.
PornoPete
Posts: 3456
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah but she didn't just say NGOs did she.

And do you have any measure of corruption in NGOs?

Don't throw out a bunch of red herrings just because you've been called.

Between governments and NGOS I'm gonna assume she captures the vast majority of foreign aid spending. I doubt that's an accident.

As for the Barrier Reef. Seeing as she doesn't think it needs fixing I wonder what her position on Turnbull giving his mates money for it is likely to be? Why don't you google that champ. I can't be bothered.

So try again.


*Edit*
in other news Adam Schiff is lining up behind Pelosi and backing away from impeachment. At least fpot is going to have a lot of tears to use for lube.
PornoPete
Posts: 3457
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

god its so rich and creamy.. A vote for Joe Biden is a vote for Trumpism. Good to see the NY Times coming out in support of Trump.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 675
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

god its so rich and creamy.. A vote for Joe Biden is a vote for Trumpism. Good to see the NY Times coming out in support of Trump.


When I read the headline I assumed the article was about how creepy he is around female children.
PornoPete
Posts: 3458
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I was more referring to the article attacking him for being

Old (I know)
White (OMG) and
Male (WTF)

It's deeply satisfying to see the left wing has learnt literally nothing in the last 4 years.

Biden almost certainly would have trounced Trump but was passed on because it was HRCs turn or something.

VP running as essentially third term of popular president is a strategy that has worked before.

So of course the ny times has to tear down a popular not bats*** insane centre left candidate.
Nmag
Posts: 1135
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

https://i.imgur.com/yYulFkQ.jpg

Did you guys see the thing where Blair Cottrell's 17 year old cousin cracked an egg on Penny Wong's head and then she slapped him a couple times before a heard of acid dropping grey nomads hit him with "Induct school children into Marxism NOW!" pickets?
Nmag
Posts: 1136
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

https://i.imgur.com/fOx3F0T.gif
PornoPete
Posts: 3459
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Drunk and posting in the politics thread.

Laughing at how people still don't think trump is anything more than a Russian stooge and even more laughably, that he is actually doing well.

I'll be back when Mueller's report and the entire truth is out. I'll be making certain people f***ing eat it. Till they f***ing choke. See you then.


So CNN's DOJ correspondent is reporting Mueller isn't going to recommend any further indictments, bringing the grand total of people indicted for collusion with Russia over the 2016 election to 0.

Not one person. Which is really f***ing funny.

So looking forward to fpot's meltdown. I know it can be tough when you just really want to believe something. Like fpot thinks he has political insight deeper than a 12 year olds.
infi
Posts: 24282
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

This is the second last stage of Trump Deangement Syndrome. There never was a Russia Collusion. The final stage is when Trump wins in 2020 against the other old white guy.
Vash
Posts: 5948
Location:

Hmm yeah, TDS is a big problem.
On the other side you have people inspired enough by Trump to go on a killing spree of Muslims.

Self described Nazis love Trump. Isn't that alittle odd?
infi
Posts: 24283
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

You listen to the ramblings of a madman? If he idolised Waleed Aly then instead he would be evil?

Don't be ridiculous.
Vash
Posts: 5949
Location:


Except it isn't an isolated incident.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/01/homegrown-terrorists-2018-were-almost-all-right-wing/581284/


infi
Posts: 24284
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Cool article.

It would be immoral to collectively punish white people for the actions of a few extremists


What do you call the confiscation of millions of guns then? What changed?

Does the article's writer know about even basic risk management? Lawful residents cannot be removed from a country but risk categories can be prevented from entering.

It is an absolute joke that democrats are railing against basic border security measures they supported 4 years ago under Obama. Luckily Australia is all over that s***. God bless Peter Dutton.
Vash
Posts: 5950
Location:

Mueller clears Trump.
Do we still want to go on about that deep state conspiracy to bring him down?
PornoPete
Posts: 3460
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

letter from attorney general clearing Trump

So all that choking fpot. Called it nearly two years ago.

Mueller clears Trump.
Do we still want to go on about that deep state conspiracy to bring him down?


You are dumber than a bag of doorknobs. It means that the Steele dossier which was illegally sent to the FBI has no basis in fact.

sarah ferguson at the ABC should lose her job.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 676
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Imagine being fpot and Vash right now.
Vash
Posts: 5951
Location:

Actually i was on the fence about Trump himself colluding. No doubt Russia did interfere with the election though.
Still, alot of the people surrounding him are criminals. There's definitely dodgy s*** he does, but colluding isn't one of them.
PornoPete
Posts: 3461
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

No you weren't
infi
Posts: 24285
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Russia didn't interfere in the election either. No one in the intelligence community nor Congress have been able to specifically identify how Russia interfered in the election process.

Russian bots may have spread propaganda on social media, but so what?

The Democrats paid a Russian propaganda agency to compile a dossier of fake articles about Trump which was then used by the NSA and FBI to seek out FISA warrants to surveil Trump campiagn members - all American citizens - signed off by the Obama govt. That's all fact.

Not a single consequences for this illegal conduct.
Nmag
Posts: 1137
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

OMG he's tat is coming right for us!!!

Oh it's a tribal tat.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12215670

Evacuations of Homegrown Music Festival reportedly sparked by a tattoo
It has been reported the tattoo was thought to be linked to far-right ideology, however, it turned out it was traditional. Around 5000 concertgoers were evacuated from the main stage at the Homegrown Festival in Wellington around 9.20pm. Homegrown spokeswoman Kelly Wright said the incident was "an innocent misunderstanding". "Some of the Homegrown crew identified a person that they were concerned about and police made the call that person needed to be found," she said. "It all happened at the change-over of the music so people were moving around and police couldn't spot the person immediately so they made the call to evacuate the stage. "The person was found and it turned out that is was a completely innocent misunderstanding and everyone was allowed to return."


Hows the TDS going Vash? Have you talked to your naturopath about the condition? Maybe some crystals would heal it.
PornoPete
Posts: 3462
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Not a single consequences for this illegal conduct.


There will be.

That run needs to be carefully timed. Played right 2020 is his to lose now.

Every single candidate for the Dems bought into this bulls***.

To be honest, I've never been one for the privatise the ABC thing. But last night they were pushing their factually incorrect 3 part 4 corners "investigation" on the grounds he wasn't exonerated of obstruction. But he was, because there was no collusion. They are seriously arguing he obstructed an investigation into a crime that didn't happen. That's where a billion dollar news organisation lands.

Might be quicker to abolish the ABC and salt the earth.

The NYT and wapo got Pulitzer prizes for their coverage of Russia. The absolute state of journalism.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 677
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Mitch McConnell and Mike Lee make an example of Barbie Socialist AOC
infi
Posts: 24286
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

damn thats savage.

"Lee claimed the deal would ban airplanes and leave Hawaii to use 'a massive fleet of giant, highly trained sea horses' to get around "

I'd like to see that. Could be a tourist attraction, in fact. Green jobs.
Nmag
Posts: 1138
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I should have screen capped yesterdays ABC page. They had an anti-right spree running at the top 4 articles with 2 around the Al Jazeera's secret recording some drunk idiot who they despise and selling it to the ABC. Just below that some stupid "Opinion" article about "Whats the next way to stamp out Trump now that the Russian excuse is debunked"

"There is a way to take down trump and it's not impeachment"

with a pic of Putin whispering in Trump's ear. LOL

but it was still a large article.

Someone send a box TDS pills to ABC.

Ohh so they did vote him in? Well wooppeee dooooo daaahhh.

Mr Latham today accused the ABC of working with Al Jazeera to conduct the investigation, which was carried out by Al Jazeera executive producer Peter Charley. "Peter Charley used to work for the ABC, he's the bloke behind the Al Jazeera sting," Mr Latham said. "George Megalogenis, an ABC character, is interviewed as part of the program so I assume the ABC had updates as to how the entrapment was going and now of course they're feeding off it in their various news outlets today. "So the ABC has seemingly been party to the targeting of One Nation in a way that is fundamentally dishonest."
Ms Hanson took to Twitter and said she was "shocked and disgusted" with the "hit piece" by a "Qatari Government organisation" and had referred the matter to ASIO. "After the full hit piece has been released I'll make a full statement & take all appropriate action." Pauline Hanson:I was shocked & disgusted with the Al Jazeera hit piece. A Qatari government organisation should not be targeting Australian political parties. This has been referred to ASIO. After the full hit piece has been released Iââ‚ÂÂâ„¢ll make a full statement & take all appropriate action. The Australian Federal Police said they have received a referral in relation to the matter but would not comment further.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-27/one-nation-mp-mark-latham-calls-gun-lobby-story-entrapment/10943504
infi
Posts: 24287
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

There is a way to take down trump and it's not impeachment


Why the hell don't they stick news! ABC used to be good at that. That headline what a complete cringe. Broadcasting fantasy drivel from academics is not news.
PornoPete
Posts: 3463
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Good to see AOC Standing on the bodies of the drowned in the flooding in the wake of her fiasco.

Remember kids definitely not the politics of fear.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 678
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Best-case socialism still fails miserably.

A fun quote from the article:

Mr Sipila's government also famously experimented with a guaranteed minimum income scheme – giving €560 (£480) a month to 2,000 unemployed people as a basic income with no conditions attached. Initial results suggested the pilot scheme left people happier, but still unemployed.


Dole bludging parasites become ecstatic dole bludging parasites. Would you look at that...
Phooks
Posts: 3392
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/2012/1/cj32n1-2.pdf
PornoPete
Posts: 3464
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Phooks is very clever everyone. He can get an essay from the Cato institute.

But when you read it. Oh look. 2016 election in a nut shell.

Vaguer cultural complaints are harder to evaluate. However, if we
equate “culture” with “high culture” or “popular culture,” we see a
curious pattern. America’s top two cultural centers, California and
New York, have the largest foreign-born populations in the coun-
try—26 percent and 20 percent, respectively (U.S. Census Bureau
2003). While states with few immigrants—like Alabama (2 percent
foreign-born), Arkansas (3 percent), Montana (2 percent), North
Dakota (2 percent), South Dakota (2 percent), and West Virginia
(1 percent)—enjoy great natural beauty, even their tourism bureaus
would not paint them as cultural meccas. You could dismiss these
patterns as mere correlation. But immigrants causally improve at
least one form of culture prized by snobs and philistines alike: cui-
sine. And if we’re being honest, don’t most Americans care more
about food than literature and museums?



Here is an article a bit more your speed phooks. From the definitely not racist or homophobic slate

is pete buttigieg just a white male or does his gayness count as diversity?

That's a question that should definitely occupy the mind of a non racist non homophobe.
fpot
Posts: 26527
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

First of all I accept the findings of the report.

I guess I feel kind of conflicted. On one hand I look kind of silly with my big statements about how certain people will eat it till they choke. On the other it is a good thing that the POTUS isn't an agent of Russia. One problem with that though - the reason I and so many others thought it was true was because he really really acted like he was one. Plenty of examples of bizarre behaviour and circumstantial evidence that I thought would be explained are now unexplained. I guess I just wanted trump gone really badly, and a positive finding by Mueller would have made that happen quickly.

Despite getting Russia completely wrong I still stand by every other comment I have ever made about trump and those who support and defend him. A narcissistic, racist promoter of sexual abuse, violence and hate. Anyone who supports him also supports that. The good news for that pile of filth is that trump will almost certainly get another four years out of this. If that makes you happy, and you claim to be a person who isn't a racist, homophobe, misogynist or any of the other labels that so easily stick to maga chuds then perhaps you need to reassess your priorities in life. Because trump winning to own the libs is a bad thing, and if he does win everyone but a very small percentage (let's say... 1%) will lose.

But hey, look on the bright side. They might still get him for obstruction of justice, witness tampering, incompetence, tax fraud, or any of the litany of crimes he has committed in plain sight.
PornoPete
Posts: 3465
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

They might still get him for obstruction of justice, witness tampering, incompetence, tax fraud, or any of the litany of crimes he has committed in plain sight.

No they won't.

Tldr: fpot is psychologically incapable of accepting the outcome of a free and fair election.

One problem with that though - the reason I and so many others thought it was true was because he really really acted like he was one


No he didn't. And this
A narcissistic, racist promoter of sexual abuse, violence and hate. Anyone who supports him also supports that.


Is the reason you thought he did.

And this

. If that makes you happy, and you claim to be a person who isn't a racist, homophobe, misogynist or any of the other labels that so easily stick to maga chuds then perhaps you need to reassess your priorities in life


Is why he is likely to win again. You'd think after f***ing up as badly as you just did a little humility would be in order. But no. Even in a post where you admit you f***ed up everyone else is a piece of s***. Well people in glass houses you utter jackass.
Vash
Posts: 5952
Location:

Pretty spot on fpot.
It seems the only reason people voted for him was to 'own the libs'. and they constantly spout nonsense such as how the left are behaving now are the exact reason he'll win again in 2020. The dumb is next level.

It's almost like a religion, blind worship and mental gymnastics at the presence of opposing evidence of his policies, and psychological & behavioural issues.
PornoPete
Posts: 3466
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It seems the only reason people voted for him was to 'own the libs'. and they constantly spout nonsense such as how the left are behaving now are the exact reason he'll win again in 2020.


Yeah so it's because you think that that he is in with a strong shot.

For example the left pushing a baseless conspiracy theory for over two years in a flagrant attempt to undermine an election is probably a good reason not to trust them with power.

It's almost like a religion, blind worship and mental gymnastics at the presence of opposing evidence of his policies, and psychological & behavioural issues.


Yeah so you should probably sit out on "ability to follow the evidence" when you've pushed the President of the United States of America is a Russian agent.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2302
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Is why he is likely to win again. You'd think after f***ing up as badly as you just did a little humility would be in order. But no. Even in a post where you admit you f***ed up everyone else is a piece of s***. Well people in glass houses you utter jackass.

those f***ing elite guys



Is why he is likely to win again. You'd think after f***ing up as badly as you just did a little humility would be in order. But no. Even in a post where you admit you f***ed up everyone else is a piece of s***. Well people in glass houses you utter jackass.

is this the pauline hanson defense? everyone else is elite so i represent the common man?
dazedandconfused
Posts: 679
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

First of all I accept the findings of the report.
One problem with that though - the reason I and so many others thought it was true was because he really really acted like he was one. Plenty of examples of bizarre behaviour and circumstantial evidence that I thought would be explained are now unexplained.


lol
PornoPete
Posts: 3467
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Quoted twice for extra relevance.

I can explain what I mean because you obviously don't understand would you like that redhat?

Before you answer I want you to ponder this quote really f***ing carefully ok

I guess I just wanted trump gone really badly, and a positive finding by Mueller would have made that happen quickly.


There is no evidence trump attempted to subvert democracy. The report indicates he actually rebuffed Russian attempts to collude. Now turn your noodle up to eleven and think about what going all in on claiming he did means for your position if you're wrong. Even more so if you did it on flimsy/no evidence. To make that jump for your little mind. That's an "anti-facist" being quoted.

is this the pauline hanson defense? everyone else is elite so i represent the common man?


No and try not to be so dumb.
infi
Posts: 24288
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Anyone who supports him


is what we refer to as The Deplorables.

Lecturing holier than thou types who still don't get it.

I love watching Tucker Carlson's recaps of every insane thing CNN/MSNBC/entire fake news industry said and how their fake reality has just collapsed in a heap.

Where to now, what's the next imagined crusade? Who would ever listen to CNN again? Trump's rally today was on point. He kicked the s*** out of the fake news. Just in- time for 2020. He should thank Mueller.
PornoPete
Posts: 3468
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Lecturing holier than thou types who still don't get it.


And it's becoming very clear they aren't going to.

Pennsylvania hasn't gone red since Regan and the best they can come up with is they must be racist homophobes.

I'm sure raven will jump in any second now with a big talk for fpot about Ad hominem is a logical fallacy with that picture book he likes while simultaneously claiming only smart people (God how hysterically self refuting is that s***) vote left (because he like totally gets ad hominem, the perils of a picture book education I suppose).

Literally two posts in a week and fpot can do nothing better than howl isms into the ether against people who voted a way he didn't like.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2303
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


So cool of the Oz to promote the greens.

https://twitter.com/australian/status/1111397008659505152

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2x5qXqUkAA9kpR.jpg


PornoPete
Posts: 3469
Location: Melbourne, Victoria


No and try not to be so dumb.


Good to see you went with hold my beer there redhat.

Scrap the US alliance. Greens shooting for a solid 2% there hey. Some of those left wing "smarts" we hear about.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2304
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Do you only disagree with one point? What's dumb matey?

I don't think they mean scrap being allies, it just means not automatically offering support for every war. What is smart about that? You're a thinking man do you think we should have backed Iraq?
infi
Posts: 24289
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The Green have no way to fund or deliver those pie in the sky promises. They are uni student skill level.
PornoPete
Posts: 3470
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Scrap the US alliance.
What's dumb matey?


Do you want a do over? You look like you need a do over.

Let me help you with that. That point alone is reason enough not to vote for them. But here's the kicker. If they don't really mean it and they are too f***ing dumb to add nuance themselves that also is a stand alone deal breaker.
Phooks
Posts: 3393
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

They are uni student skill level.


Tell us more about University students infi
infi
Posts: 24290
Location: Brisbane, Queensland



Tell us more about University students infi


You were never involved in or observed Uni politics? It hurts to watch.

What more is to tell? These days they describe themselves as "adulting" if they iron their shirt. That's the Greens: "because we are hopelessly retarded, we think everyone else requires overbearing govt regulation too. Except for drug, drugs are great."

Churrr
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39774
Location: Other International

That's the Greens: "because we are hopelessly retarded, we think everyone else requires overbearing govt regulation too. Except for drug, drugs are great."
bahah this made me laugh because you made me think that if one distils it down to just those two things:

one is the party of corporate regulation and personal liberties
one is the party of corporate liberties and personal regulation
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2305
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

oh snaps hillsong sharia law isn't fitting the personal liberties narrative.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 680
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

How is banning hate speech supporting personal liberty? That is basically the exact antithesis to personal liberty.
Nmag
Posts: 1139
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

"personal liberties"

Trog, can you review my posts, see that I have not been trolling, and acknowledge that restricting my post limit to 3 days for about a year is biased and excessive? I think a left wing admin unnecessarily silencing a right of centre user is demonstration of the selective personal liberty violation your belief system condones. Can you reset it? You know social media well enough to agree the ABC plays games in favour of left wing, with an anti right bias in the way it headlines news and selects which news to give more air to, and which angle to put on news, and what is news, and what is not news.

Where is my post that deserves this 3 day limit? I think you will find some of fpots and Vash's content worse. Ask Vash. My behaviour has been remarkably better. Troll free.

Here is a poll I saw today

https://i.imgur.com/4WLRSRH.jpg

I doubt it's accurate but it's surprising.
Nmag
Posts: 1140
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

http://magaimg.net/img/7lg2.jpg
infi
Posts: 24291
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

well it depends if they are considered progressive - you can see wearing an items of clothing that represents the oppression of women is very woke. is ardern also for gay rights? i expect so, that is the duplicity of progressives.
Nmag
Posts: 1141
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


"Updated about an hour ago" but sitting as the 6'th article down (well down the page) on the news page.

Just after the "Opinion" on "We found a quicker way to multiply really big numbers"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-10/political-polling-company-ucomms-ties-to-unions-cfmmeu-and-actu/10945798

A major opinion polling company used by GetUp!, Greenpeace, The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age and some political candidates is co-owned by union heavyweights the CFMMEU and the ACTU, an ABC investigation has discovered.


Observe as it moves up the Most Popular list for "Past Hour" and "24 Hours" yet remains off screen on the main page below articles that have not made it into the most popular list for "Past Hour" and "24 Hours".

Midday update: It's now below 16 articles but moving up the Most Popular list for "Past Hour".

Evening update: Removed it from the front page news within 10 hours and turned it into one of those little side bar articles well down below scroll of main page view. It's sitting 2 steps down from "We found a quicker way to multiply really big numbers".
notgreazy
Posts: 974
Location: Other International

Polling companies should never be trusted. They are biased because of money. They want whoever to buy their product which is the result of the poll, boring polls don't sell. Proper surveying requires a lot of work to construct a good unbiased survey that will question the participant multiple ways before coming to conclusion. Most will utilise proper statistics, not solely pie/bar charts. I've never seen one post their questions, number surveyed and location.

You know why you never see proper reporting of these statistics? because it's a f***ing joke. You can literally create a survey with the majority of responders agreeing to the statement: Hilter did nothing wrong. It just takes crafting the right question, target the right demographic and surveying just the right amount of people.

tldr: polls are dumb because companies are FOR profit, people are gullible and should never be trusted, opinions change.
infi
Posts: 24292
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Newspoll has a pretty good record of picking the Federal election winner.

Political parties employ polling companies throughout the campaign. They need fast polls, not super precise. A thorough poll which arrives after election day is useless. The newspapers and parties are looking for the direction of voters and top issues.
Spook
Posts: 41300
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
lols, liberals are going to be smashed to f***.

everyone hates scomo (c***) and dutton may as well be the grim reaper.
infi
Posts: 24293
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

It's gonna be closer than you think.
Spook
Posts: 41301
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
no it wont, not even in your dreams
infi
Posts: 24294
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

you state how many seats majority you think ALP will have, and your wager, and I will take the other side of the bet.
Spook
Posts: 41302
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
no. i dont like to gamble. i prefer my beers in the hand, rather than in the bush.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 681
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Spook: I know the result of the upcoming election
infi: Care to stand behind that claim in any meaningful way?
Spook: Nope
Nmag
Posts: 1142
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I just don't find Bill, the union man very convincing or impressive. I prefered Rudd far more than Bill. I didn't like Gillard much.

Scomo's not fantastc but I can stomach him more than Bill.

How did we get a toff speaking person like Turnbull? I prefered Abbott.

It's likely to be close. If they had someone a bit more impressive than Bill I think Labor would walk it in. Bill doesn't sell the message very well.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2307
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

https://www.liberal.org.au/our-policies

6 years in government and they're taking 4 policies to the election.

Obviously almost everything is done.
infi
Posts: 24295
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

You will find they are added as they announced during the campaign. But good find!

ALP wipes policies

Bill Shorten was blindsided ­yesterday when Labor’s official campaign website deleted reams of information explaining his ­signature reforms to negative gearing and capital gains tax, and reposted simplified “fact sheets” with key details stripped out. Labor previously had almost 100 paragraphs posted on its housing policy, including charts and diagrams explaining the negative gearing and capital gains wind back, but this was reduced to just 10 paragraphs yesterday. The Opposition Leader was also caught out yesterday when he claimed there would be no new taxes on superannuation, despite Labor planning a $34 billion raid on nest egg ­savings.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39776
Location: Other International

are policies even needed any more though? it's 2019
infi
Posts: 24296
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

It's not like the party is going to adhere to their policies and it's not like the senate is going to allow them to implement them
fpot
Posts: 26528
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

So basically Barr lied and produced a completely false summary of the report. The absurd thing about it is that he knew that as soon as the report was released the deception would become obvious. Barr also held a press conference a few hours before the report was released. This was again a measure to buy time - I guess trump and his team are in on the fact that his base will believe what comes from him (and make no mistake, the AG at this moment is him) above all else. That's what the constant disparaging of the press and labelling them enemy of the people is all about. They're the enemy and trump is the saviour.

But it's all there and it is completely obvious that trump engaged in illegal activity. Barr's behaviour is very alarming and bizarre. Why on earth would he sacrifice himself like this? Is he protecting trump or something else?

trump being so hilariously inept that he was manipulated all the way to POTUS is pretty funny in a sad kind of way. For those people who supported or defended him - do you feel the slightest bit remorseful for that? Or is this one of this grim death things, where years later you'll still be living the fantasy a Russian troll farm has created for you?

Unfortunately for trump the smart people who got him to POTUS obviously didn't stick around to cover it up., So what isn't technically a criminal conspiracy has spawned a whole bunch of potential obstruction of justice charges. That's how one obstructs justice for a non-existent crime.

From this point forward every day trump occupies the Oval Office the credibility of the USA drops and drops and drops. When the Democrats get back in and try and fix this god awful mess imagine all the s*** they're going to find.
infi
Posts: 24297
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

All this "illegal conduct" yet zero indictments. I'm not sure you understand how the criminal process works.

I never knew that one of the key lawyers in the Mueller team previously worked for the Hillary foundation. Imagine the reaction if an ex-Trump lawyer investigated a Democrat. It s impossible to imagine.

This investigation which CNN was covertly recorded as knowing to be a 'giant nothing burget'" is a blight on the office of President. It's amazing Trump permitted it to proceed. He should have just shut it down way earlier. The people in favour of the investigation were never going to vote for him anyway.

The great news is that now the Justice department can get into investigating the terrible abuse of power within the law enforcement community and hold the ring leaders to account. This will be a far more interesting chapter.
fpot
Posts: 26529
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

So just to be clear your stance is that the details contained in the report are false, trump's been running a lawful and legitimate administration and is in fact the victim of a conspiracy by the so-called deep state who are just so damn jealous of how awesome he is?
infi
Posts: 24298
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Have you even read into the methods used to obtain FISA warrants on the campaign?

The text messages from Peter Strzok?

Jim Comey leaking information to undermine the President?

The players involved in this corrupt investigation are the real criminals. Russia tried their best to get to Trump's campaign but none of them conspired with a foreign government to interfere with the election - thus no indictments.

The Democrat party on the other hand solicited fake intel from a Russian which was then used as a basis for wiretapping of American citizens by the FBI. Feels bad man.

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http://pre14.deviantart.net/1226/th/pre/f/2015/148/0/5/sad_pepe__feels_bad_man__vector_by_hirussai-d8uq43y.png&amp;f=1
taggs
Posts: 6598
Location:

I'm a classic "never trumper" establishment sort of guy (more libertarian than conservative). I wanted Carly Fiorina to get up and then when she didn't I hoped Marco Rubio would. Hate Trump's persona, basic character and general vibe. His economics are retarded (as an economic-y sort of guy). He won't do anything to manage the US' budget and entitlement issues because he's a narcissist and can't do anything that would upset his base. His SCOTUS and federal court picks are great, probably more to the advisors he apparently listens to than his temperament. Thought I should put that on the table before I ask fpot to cite which law exactly trump has broken.
fpot
Posts: 26530
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Basically,

- there was enough circumstantial evidence to justify an investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 US Election
- trump repeatedly tried to interfere with this investigation
- the investigation concluded that Russia interfered in the election, and trump's people were receptive to the help
- it also concluded that there was not enough evidence to support criminal conspiracy charges
- for very mysterious and unknown reasons trump obstructed justice in an investigation that didn't result in indictments filed against him
PornoPete
Posts: 3471
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So basically Barr lied and produced a completely false summary of the report.


Fpot has definitely read the report. He definitely knows what crimes specifically trump can be charged with.

Fpot this is your fire can't melt steel moment.

And you're failing.
You aren't smart. You aren't righteous.

The above post is literally the opposite of the facts.

This is ongoing proof the "libs" are ambivalent about democracy that doesn't go their way
Nmag
Posts: 1143
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


"I just saw this Caucasian guy wielding a knife and the cops were trying to pacify him but he wouldn't stop," the man, who declined to give his name, told the ABC.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-19/police-officer-stabbed-at-sydneys-central-station/11032586
PornoPete
Posts: 3472
Location: Melbourne, Victoria


there was enough circumstantial evidence to justify an investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 US Election
- trump repeatedly tried to interfere with this investigation
- the investigation concluded that Russia interfered in the election, and trump's people were receptive to the help
- it also concluded that there was not enough evidence to support criminal conspiracy charges
- for very mysterious and unknown reasons trump obstructed justice in an investigation that didn't result in indictments filed against him


This is such a loose description of the facts. Watch those goal posts move. Watching that cognitive dissonance playout in real time, delicious.

The investigation wasn't into Russian interference generally. It was very specifically meant to investigate collusion between Russia and the trump campaign.

Now on that front a multi-million dollar 2 year investigation turned up exactly zero evidence of that.

It is that fact that makes the obstruction argument beyond farcical. It requires you believe he obstructed an investigation where there is no crime. In essence the argument is Trump professing his innocence is obstruction of justice. This from someone who is f***ing obsessed with the rise of the new Nazis, is convinced it's acceptable to overturn a free and fair election because someone who is in fact innocent said they were innocent and therefore "obstructed" the investigation into his innocence.

That's next level police state s*** capitan I hate fascists.

nytimes reporting Steele dossier likely contains Russian disinformation

Another day the shambolic collusion narrative falls even further apart.

That choking is a ways off hey fpot.
infi
Posts: 24299
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

And to think the MSM and Democrats instead of accepting this outcome, and wondering how they let this flawed information fuel their prejudice, they DOUBLE DOWN. This coverage gives Trump's rhetoric of FAKE NEWS more legitimacy.

Imagine investing 2 years of airtime on a claim which turned out to be entirely false. It must be utterly devastating.
PornoPete
Posts: 3473
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Even that times article is desperately trying to mitigate the damage of their own goal.

But Mr. Mueller, after a two-year investigation involving roughly 40 F.B.I. agents and other specialists, provided no evidence to support the claim that the adviser had collected a brokerage fee for the sale of a share of the Russian oil giant Rosneft


Thats how they are describing cater pages alleged bribe. Note how they leave out the fee was supposed to be worth 16 billion USD. And was paid in 2016.

So a newly minted multi billionaire who put a Russian agent in Whitehouse for some reason wasn't balls deep in coke and hookers in a non-extradition country.

The fact he was still in US is clear proof it didn't happen
fpot
Posts: 26531
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Imagine investing 2 years of airtime on a claim which turned out to be entirely false. It must be utterly devastating..
One of the big disappointments when Barr falsely summarised the report was missing out on how you'd face reality when it finally came. I should have guessed it would just be this mundane, childish 'the opposite is actually true' rendition I'm seeing here today.

Is this how you face black and white reality irl as well? Probably why you didn't make it on your own and daddy had to rescue you with a job in his office. Kind of like the sons of another moron, deemed too dumb to prosecute because they were too stupid to realise they were breaking the law.

The only reason trump isn't being impeached this second is purely political. As soon as he leaves office he'll be charged with a whole bunch of crimes that were committed while he was president. Then there'll be all the other stuff they find once the dems get back in and fix this god awful mess.

Congrats on being one the dumbest muthaf***ers ever to draw air.
PornoPete
Posts: 3474
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

You touched a nerve without even mentioning him infi.

Fpot will be able to say specifically how Barr lied noting that Mueller immediately corrected the record when BuzzFeed said trump asked Cohen to lie to congress but hasn't said anything about Barrs summary.

Fpot can talk about infis dad though.

Still waiting for that choking you utter moron.

The only reason trump isn't being impeached this second is purely political. As soon as he leaves office he'll be charged with a whole bunch of crimes that were committed while he was president. Then there'll be all the other stuff they find once the dems get back in and fix this god awful mess.


Impeachment is purely political you epic dumbass.

They aren't pulling the trigger because there isn't a compelling underlying crime.

You list *specifically* the crimes that have been committed.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 682
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Wow fpot back with the renewed vigour of a classic SJW clinging desperately onto another fairytale after his last one was completely eviscerated. It's like a broken record.
fpot
Posts: 26532
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

The 'fairytale' was 'eviscerated' by a false summary from the AG of the Mueller Report. A false summary I stupidly believed because I didn't think it was possible for someone to lie so brazenly when the truth was right around the corner. Now we've turned that corner, the truth is out and it is worse than anyone could have imagined. For trump and his supporters anyway.

Now not only do we know that trump worked with the Russians and then obstructed the investigation into that interference, we also know that the AG is compromised and is willing to protect trump instead of doing their job.
PornoPete
Posts: 3475
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Now not only do we know that trump worked with the Russians and then obstructed the investigation into that interference


Where does the report say that fpot. Link specifically.

Barr did not lie at all. Mueller has not said he lied. they worked together on the redactions.

The report says the Russians engaged in a disinformation campaign. It very expressly clears trump of cooperating with trump, making the obstruction argument impossible.

we also know that the AG is compromised and is willing to protect trump instead of doing their job.


lol. pure fantasy. and he has the hide to chide infi about the deep state. The first law officer in the US is compromised. the s***ting of the bed in 2020 is going to be glorious.
infi
Posts: 24300
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The 'fairytale' was 'eviscerated' by a false summary from the AG of the Mueller Report. A false summary I stupidly believed because I didn't think it was possible for someone to lie so brazenly when the truth was right around the corner. Now we've turned that corner, the truth is out and it is worse than anyone could have imagined. For trump and his supporters anyway.

Now not only do we know that trump worked with the Russians and then obstructed the investigation into that interference, we also know that the AG is compromised and is willing to protect trump instead of doing their job.


Worked with the Russians? Are you high? Where did you get this idea? CNN is not an acceptable source. Can you reference the report to support that claim?

Are you ok fpot?

It is important to conduct welfare checks on people suffering acute TDS.
fpot
Posts: 26533
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Yeah it's in Volume 1 mate. I'll say it again, I concede that not enough evidence was found at this time to warrant criminal conspiracy charges.

Once you've finished reading that you can move onto Volume 2. That covers the bit where trump interfered in the investigation that took place. That's the creamy bit because when trump is no longer president he'll be able to be indicted on those.
infi
Posts: 24301
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Where does it say ANYWHERE that the trump campaign worked with Russians?
fpot
Posts: 26534
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Volume 1, Section IV on page 66. It is titled, 'Russian Governments Links To and Contacts With the Trump Campaign'.
fpot
Posts: 26535
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

At this point I really can't help but notice it's just you and dazed railing against this and well, you're both dumber than dogs.

There is so much potential for good faith discussion on this, so if you're a normal person and think I'm way off please tell me. Because it really seems clear to me that the AG lied, the report is comprehensive in detailing trump and the trump campaign's crimes, lack of morality and complete and utter unfitness for office, and that the so called fake news pretty much got it as right as they could have with all of the interference that was going on.
infi
Posts: 24302
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

none of that comes even close to constituting "working with" the Russian government. when a guy comes up to you and says "hey i might have some information that may be of interest to you" - and you reply "oh yeah, i'll have a look" that's what you call a "nothing-burger".

i can't believe your constant reference to this "complete and utter lack of morality". the democrat campaign
- procured a bulls*** dossier of smear and garbage
- from a russian
- unverified material
- used as a basis for wiretapping of american citizens
- in turn kicked off a 2 year investigation which had no chance of proving a crime occurred.

Thats completely kosher, I guess. As I read the report, Trump campaign's contact with Russians is moreso through inexperience and buffonery, which is several steps below the DNC's status as pure fukcing evil. And to think this is the same DNC wqhich rigger the primary for Bernie to lose against Hillary. These Democrats are the political equivalent of "Scumbag Steve". The report demonstrates that at every steep of the way when Trump agent's were approached to "co-ordinate" they rebuffed those advances.

There is so much potential for good faith discussion on this,


I will reply to you in similar terms. Trump is not a Russian asset. The suggestion is simply ridiculous. He has expelled Russian diplomats, bombed Syrian targets (Russian ally), imposed financial controls on Russian oligarchs - more than Obama ever did. He loves America through and through, yet is constantly accused of treachery.

The Russians wanted to cause chaos. They has no idea the threat Trump truly posed to Russia. They just wanted to disrupt the status quo of establishment puppets but had no idea what they bought into.

Lastly from the point of pragmatism. #RussiaCollusion truthers need to understand that the race has now been run and lost. Any further energy expended in this issue is wasted and will not in any way advance the potential for beating Trump in 2020 or winning Senate. Main St does not care about #RussiaCollusion - only diehards who are not swinging voters. It's time to move on, as there will be no convictions and no impeachment will ever succeed. The only reason someone would persist with prosecuting this case is to hear the sound of their own voice.
fpot
Posts: 26536
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Except when that guy is a powerful enemy of the nation you wish to lead, and the information they are offering is stolen.

The reason Russia helped trump is because they knew having him as president would reduce what was once a proud nation and a pillar of democracy into the shambolic laughing stock it has now become. They didn't just do it for the luls like you seem you be suggesting. There are many instances where contact can be explained by trump being dumb, some are less easily explained that way. Mainly he used buffers which is SOP for any criminal organisation.

He loves America through and through
haha seriously?
PornoPete
Posts: 3476
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

the report is comprehensive in detailing trump and the trump campaign's crimes,


Watch carefully as no link to a page in the publically available report is ever produced.

The report is explicit that no crimal charges can be brought.

Here is a quote from page 5.

the investigation did not establish that members of the trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities


Here's is a good faith discussion point. What does co-ordinate mean in this context. Here's a hint. It's not a criminal description. They use conspiracy.

Fpot wants to have a good faith discussion about a document he very plainly has not read.

The reason Russia helped trump is because they knew having him as president would reduce what was once a proud nation and a pillar of democracy into the shambolic laughing stock it has now become


What does this even mean. Watch the climb down. The report supposedly details crimes he can't and won't name.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 683
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

fpot reads "links to" and "contact with" as "worked with" and "obstructed", then proceeds to call us dumber than dogs. It's more sad than anything. Get checked for an aneurysm.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2308
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


https://twitter.com/AusElectoralCom/status/1120509425658277888?s=19

Highest number of youth enrolled ever.
Nmag
Posts: 1144
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


These Green voters are a concern:

Saudi Arabia has beheaded 37 Saudi citizens, most of them minority Shiites, in a mass execution across the country for alleged terrorism-related crimes, and publicly pinned the executed body and severed head of a convicted Sunni extremist to a pole as a warning to others.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-24/saudi-arabia-beheads-37-for-alleged-terrorism-related-crimes/11041572

"All immigrants can retain their cultural values without being any less Australian".


89% Greens voters "Agree".

"How many immigrants should Australia admit?"


60% Greens voters say "More"

"Boats carrying asylum seekers should be turned back"


77% Green voters "Disagree"

Cultural values are the core principles and ideals upon which an entire community exists.


For example, secular and non secular government. Sharia law. These are "Cultural values". Cultural values is not pizza and street food.


Phooks
Posts: 3394
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

https://www.nber.org/papers/w18307
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2309
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Is the death penalty a cultural value in the USA? I'm pretty sure cultural values don't include dumb laws a government has enacted.
infi
Posts: 24303
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Is the death penalty a cultural value in the USA? I'm pretty sure cultural values don't include dumb laws a government has enacted.


It's a criminal sentence passed by their legislators.
paveway
Posts: 21582
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Just wanted to say hi to everyone as there are no other threads on qgl anymore where anyone actually replies
dazedandconfused
Posts: 684
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Is the death penalty a cultural value in the USA? I'm pretty sure cultural values don't include dumb laws a government has enacted.


No but things like thinking women are less than dogs being translated into Sharia law are good examples of how some laws reflect cultural values.
PornoPete
Posts: 3477
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/04/27/22/12801124-0-image-a-32_1556402051273.jpg

In which the "we mustn't use racist dog whistles" nytimes publishes nazi grade anti-Semitism.

When the nazi hunters are so s*** at their job they print nazi propaganda. What a time to be alive.
Nmag
Posts: 1145
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

"Cultural values" can include:

- Men eat first, then the women
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2310
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Just wanted to say hi to everyone as there are no other threads on qgl anymore where anyone actually replies

Hi pave!

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-29/pill-testing-trial-at-groovin-the-moo-for-second-time/11053350

How good is it that some people can change their mind on policy?

It's almost like once someone experiences something like say living somewhere new, they would adopt a new mindset
Spook
Posts: 41309
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Just wanted to say hi to everyone as there are no other threads on qgl anymore where anyone actually replies


http://qgl.ausforums.com/index.php/439207/?agn=thread&id=3615679

going bunta
dazedandconfused
Posts: 685
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Nmag
Posts: 1146
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


ABC News

United Australia Party, Clive Palmer... is a protectionist nationalist without the xenophobic baggage.


Implying some other parties are xenophobic

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-02/federal-election-what-does-clive-palmer-actually-want/11074364

It's "Your ABC".


Sir Redhat
Posts: 2311
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

who you gonna vote for dazed?
Tollaz0r!
Posts: 18549
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Are you guys STILL going on with this thread? Surely it causes you all more frustration and ill feelings than any positive outcomes you get from it? You aren't going to change each others minds at all, specially fpot and Infi.
Scooter
Posts: 6635
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

>Implying some other parties are xenophobic

You think that Anning’s, Love Australia or Leave, Rise Up Australia Party and PHON aren't xenophobic?
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39784
Location: Other International

haha I was wondering what Anning's policies were as stated & went to his website to find out but it's white font on a white background (seriously). pressing ctrl-a seemed like a lot of effort but I did it anyway and his first policy (literally) is to make Australia "an English speaking, predominantly European Christian Commonwealth, as originally described in 1901 when Australia as a nation was founded"

so... yeh. imagine being that scared of foreigners. to be fair, he "is the great-grandson of colonial-era settlers who emigrated from Britain" so I guess he's entitled to his hot takes on immigration
dazedandconfused
Posts: 686
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

ABC promotes Clive Palmer because he is more likely to take Liberal votes than Labor votes. ABC likes their pro-ABC Labor party. Basic propaganda.
Vash
Posts: 5953
Location:



Peterson was pathetically unprepared for this debate. Still interesting though.



Chomsky nails the situation again.
infi
Posts: 24305
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Chomsky says Democrats have gone to the right? I think he stopped watching American politics around the end of 2015.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 687
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Trust Vash to take what he wants from a video.
Nmag
Posts: 1147
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Trog misleads with his choice of words.

"Foreigners" is not an ideal word. We have lived with some groups enough to not regard them as "foreign".

"Fear". I'm not keen on BBQ sauce. I'm not afraid of BBQ sauce.

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PornoPete
Posts: 3478
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Just wanted to say hi to everyone as there are no other threads on qgl anymore where anyone actually replies


Hi pave.

Are you guys STILL going on with this thread? Surely it causes you all more frustration and ill feelings than any positive outcomes you get from it? You aren't going to change each others minds at all, specially fpot and Infi.


No but watching fpot turn into an outright conspiracy theorist from reading the guardian in real time is hugely entertaining.
Vash
Posts: 5954
Location:


https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xzqmp/bernie-sanders-calls-for-a-national-right-to-repair-law-for-farmers

Man, it just shows how far right bats*** crazy the U.S is when i saw this policy proposal.
Your private property isnt actually your private property. From the country that says the government should have no part in your private affairs. Also, pro choice is now a bad thing, despite us saying this was fine 30 years ago.
Nmag
Posts: 1148
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

It happens in some ways here Vash with car manufacturers. They are making it increasingly difficult for non company mechanics to service vehicles. It's pretty simple, when you buy something, give consideration to how you will maintain, store and dispose of it. I don't plan to buy a John Deer tractor, and my local non-company mechanic has the gear to do my car.

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dazedandconfused
Posts: 688
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Don't worry Nmag, you're not alone. I've had this for a decade on my account:

"Due to post limiting, you can only post 1 message every 85400 seconds. You will be able to post again in 30562 seconds."

Your private property isnt actually your private property. From the country that says the government should have no part in your private affairs.


Pretty sure John Deere would have terms and conditions to agree to before purchasing their equipment. So that's one private contract the farm owner has with a private company. So that's one blindingly obvious flaw in your argument.

Pretty sure the Government is now demanding it regulate this interaction with the right-to-repair legislation. So that's an example of how the government is now interfering in that private contract.

You sure know how to get things completely wrong, Vash.

Also, pro choice is now a bad thing, despite us saying this was fine 30 years ago.


I know it is a knee-jerk for lefties to simplify everything to ridiculousness in order to appear credible Vash but try real hard to understand the abortion debate has nothing to do with choice. The argument is whether or not an unborn child has rights.
Hogfather
Posts: 16920
Location: Cairns, Queensland

lol I think that post limiters would be turned off by now, its not like this forum is struggling with too many contributions
fpot
Posts: 26538
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

600+ former DOJ prosecutors agree that trump has committed obstruction of justice.

I am a wacky conspiracy theorist.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39785
Location: Other International

I vote we stop talking about the USA when there's so much awesome stuff to talk about the Australian election



these are pretty funny although I can't vouch for their accuracy but based on what I've seen they seem to be fairly on point.
PornoPete
Posts: 3479
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

600+ former DOJ prosecutors agree that trump has committed obstruction of justice.

I am a wacky conspiracy theorist


Strange that Mueller didn't agree with them. Because he has been really reticent in charging people.

Notice how it doesn't deal at any point with constitutional prerogative.

Neither does the letter. Fpot gets easily dazzled by political theatre. It's a sign of how smart he is.
Fireman Sam
Posts: 155
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
To be fair, you come across as a bit of a dill too PornoPete.
infi
Posts: 24306
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The great thing about a bunch of prosecutors putting their name to a letter saying they would prosecute Trump is none of them have to worry about the risk of humiliation if they lost in court. All care and no responsibility.

Meanwhile the ACTUAL investigation team stacked with Democrat donors couldn't justify an prosecution.

The Australian election is farce. Shorten is on again with blatant lies about cuts to spending which literally did not occur. Morrison as competent as he is doesn't deserve to win, the Libs deserve a term
in Opposition as penance for making Turnbull PM. I can only hope it's another hung parliament and that a lot of sitting members are turfed out to hasten the entire Parliament's renewal. These career politicians are a scourge.
PornoPete
Posts: 3480
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

To be fair, you come across as a bit of a dill too PornoPete.


If you say so. I did predict Trump will never be charged with collusion and that Russia is a coping mechanism more than two years ago.

It's been proven exactly correct.
Nmag
Posts: 1149
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Currently we have people putting swastikas on jewish liberal candidates placard. I got a photo of a mutilated Greens placard. I wish they got rid of all the placards and most of the bulls*** and had to fill out a column in a huge sortable/filterable table regarding their commitment view on various issues. With measurements if they can put in a measure. Then we can look at the huge table and the media can drone on about it. Then score them on 6 pm news how they going with their column now during the term.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11092548-3x2-940x627.jpg

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Vash
Posts: 5955
Location:



tHe aBc iS sO LeFt bIaSed
Nmag
Posts: 1150
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

7:30 report is government funded? It's a trash show.

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PornoPete
Posts: 3481
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yes the ABC demonstrated it's bias to the liberals by asking shorten what his climate change policy will cost. As a percentage of GDP.

Lord have mercy.

The unrelenting hate spewed forth by Leigh Sales by having the temerity of ask a question if Bill Shorten makes me weak at the knees.

It's like watching Hitler. Who does she think she is asking what a policy will cost.
Jeffro
Posts: 518
Location: Queensland

You guys actually still vote for major parties? Both as bad as each other.
Vash
Posts: 5956
Location:

You guys actually still vote for major parties? Both as bad as each other.


Not even close. This line is said alot. The liberals are *far* worse than labor. Not that i vote for labor, but ill still preference them higher than the libs.
PornoPete
Posts: 3482
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Not even close. This line is said alot. The liberals are *far* worse than labor. Not that i vote for labor, but ill still preference them higher than the libs.


No no vash. The actual question here is do you believe the ABC is biased in favour of the liberal party. That was the thesis of the video you posted. The video which is incontrovertible evidence of the damage reading Chomsky uncritically does to you I might add.

Let's see if you can cover yourself in glory like the last time when you didn't understand the definition of refugee.

Hey super reasonable and definately doesn't take voting direction from comedy channels on YouTube trog why don't you weigh in here seeing as you are definitely against the propagation of false information.

I mean trog posted about how polls say the ABC is like for serious totally unbiased. So an accusation that it could be biased in favour of liberals will be meet with steely faced resistance I'm sure.

Cause if he says nothing..... Maybe he's not so sure.

To be crystall clear. I'm might start taking other certain folks to task if see this. I'm confident I won't.

I expect raven, phooks and fpot will also immediately chime in to defend the ABC's defiled honour.
fpot
Posts: 26540
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

If Labor softened their stance on offshore processing I'd consider them a viable voting option again. Maybe.

Gotta say it's kind of refreshing to see ScoMo actually acknowledge the existence of climate change. Baby steps and all that.
Vash
Posts: 5957
Location:



Conservative 'intellectual'
lol. This is great.
taggs
Posts: 6602
Location:

edit: f*** me i shouldn't have responded. im stupid.
PornoPete
Posts: 3483
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Gotta say it's kind of refreshing to see ScoMo actually acknowledge the existence of climate change. Baby steps and all that.


Hey you know what that doesn't spell. It's patently ridiculous to accuse the ABC of bias in favour of the liberal party. Funny how that goes.

Conservative 'intellectual'
lol. This is great.


Andrew Niel is upper management of the spectator. That's a video of a conservative putting a conservative to the sword you epic moron.

Search 'Andrew Niel Bregman' on YouTube for epic luls
fpot
Posts: 26541
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

You really don't find the Shapiro video funny? Who doesn't enjoy seeing a smug little twerp melt-the-f***-down the second he's outside the safety zone of the US media and his twitter followers?
notgreazy
Posts: 983
Location: Other International

You really don't find the Shapiro video funny? Who doesn't enjoy seeing a smug little twerp melt-the-f***-down the second he's outside the safety zone of the US media and his twitter followers?

It was great. It's interesting to see conservatives from the UK discuss issues with US conservatives. The jib he threw at sherpiro at the end was great. It took me by surprise that he's a practicing orthodox jew.
PornoPete
Posts: 3484
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

edit: f*** me i shouldn't have responded. im stupid.


Is it really stupidity though?
dazedandconfused
Posts: 689
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

NeverTrump Shapiro has always had issues being a conservative commentator first and a whiny bitch second. Plus he punches right ALL the time which wins him precisely zero friends.

Don't get me wrong though Ben is still far and above any degenerate on the left.
notgreazy
Posts: 985
Location: Other International

Degenerate is such a great word. Anything I disagree with, yeah lets label it as degeneracy. As if humanities morals are non-dynamic ever changing.

If the left is degeneracy, then does that mean the right is intellectual retardation?
PornoPete
Posts: 3485
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yes because left wing politics is totally innocent in the insult slinging department.
Nmag
Posts: 1151
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/6075994-1x1-340x340.jpg

I already voted.

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Vash
Posts: 5958
Location:

right is intellectual retardation?


All signs point to yes. Source: Shapiro and friends. And taggs attempting to show off his intellectual skills after seeing a conservative get demolished. and PP doing his ludicrious 'lol the guy interviewing him is conservative' thing.
Hogfather
Posts: 16922
Location: Cairns, Queensland

You guys actually still vote for major parties? Both as bad as each other.

Its important to understand that in Australia you must preference either the ALP or the LNP. For 99% of seats this will determine who gets your *actual* vote, regardless of who you preference #1.

As such it is important to be aware of the policies and positions of the major parties so that you can cast an informed vote.
PornoPete
Posts: 3486
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

and PP doing his ludicrious 'lol the guy interviewing him is conservative' thing.


Yeah you don't know who Andrew Niel is do you.

Just to get the team self own nice and clear:




If the left is degeneracy, then does that mean the right is intellectual retardation?
Yes because left wing politics is totally innocent in the insult slinging department.
And taggs attempting to show off his intellectual skills after seeing a conservative get demolished.


I mean I'm sure vash definitely knows what franking is and was about to put together a cutting remark. Biding his time don't you know.
Jeffro
Posts: 519
Location: Queensland


Its important to understand that in Australia you must preference either the ALP or the LNP. For 99% of seats this will determine who gets your *actual* vote, regardless of who you preference #1.

As such it is important to be aware of the policies and positions of the major parties so that you can cast an informed vote.


I was a member of the Labor party until recently and am still a union member.
Hogfather
Posts: 16923
Location: Cairns, Queensland

^

How's that going for you?
Jeffro
Posts: 520
Location: Queensland

^

How's that going for you?


Fine. I just wont vote for Labor as long as Jackie Trad is pulling Queensland Labor strings and Penny Wong is still running the Senate.
Hogfather
Posts: 16924
Location: Cairns, Queensland

Fine. I just wont vote for Labor as long as Jackie Trad is pulling Queensland Labor strings and Penny Wong is still running the Senate.

OK, but will you preference the LNP before them? That's what matters ultimately. You don't get to vote and not choose between them in the Lower House.
Jeffro
Posts: 521
Location: Queensland


OK, but will you preference the LNP before them? That's what matters ultimately.


Probably but I live in a safe Labor seat. More interested in who holds the balance of power in the Senate tbh.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 690
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Degenerate is such a great word. Anything I disagree with, yeah lets label it as degeneracy. As if humanities morals are non-dynamic ever changing.

If the left is degeneracy, then does that mean the right is intellectual retardation?


People are degenerates, not positions. It just so happens degenerates tend to support certain positions, and certain positions can only be held if you're a degenerate.
Vash
Posts: 5960
Location:



People are degenerates, not positions. It just so happens degenerates tend to support certain positions, and certain positions can only be held if you're a degenerate.


So in other words.. the right are degenerates too. Got it.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 691
Location: Sydney, New South Wales



So in other words.. the right are degenerates too. Got it.


Neocons, cuckservatives who think the left can be reasoned with and the like are also degenerates. But things like "Desmond is Amazing" isn't a phenomena that you see on the right. That's all I'm saying.
Nmag
Posts: 1152
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I know of a guy who finds her really sexy

https://www.sbs.com.au/guide/sites/sbs.com.au.guide/files/styles/full/public/c2c2508a-a705-4c92-a559-516e909f75ae_1468822831.jpeg

I prefer Julie Bishop. She's pretty hawt.

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Vash
Posts: 5961
Location:

Keneally wins if we're playing which politican we'd bang.


https://i.imgur.com/gyyjgZ5.jpg
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2313
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/live/2019/may/16/bob-hawke-australian-prime-minister-dies-rolling-coverage?CMP=soc_568&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1558000609

RIP Bob, his ghost will usher in 50 years of progressive politics.
notgreazy
Posts: 986
Location: Other International

Yes because left wing politics is totally innocent in the insult slinging department.

???? okay ????
All signs point to yes. Source: Shapiro and friends. And taggs attempting to show off his intellectual skills after seeing a conservative get demolished. and PP doing his ludicrious 'lol the guy interviewing him is conservative' thing.

I was being sarcastic man. The "left" nor the "right" are any one thing.


People are degenerates, not positions. It just so happens degenerates tend to support certain positions, and certain positions can only be held if you're a degenerate..

This is pedantic nitpicking that's really annoying. Stop moving the goal post.
PornoPete
Posts: 3487
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

???? okay ????


I set my point out in a series of helpful quotes.

Big shame about Bob Hawke. Truly a great man.
Spook
Posts: 41323
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
keneally hot af.

julie bishop goes good for an old duck.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 692
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


This is pedantic nitpicking that's really annoying. Stop moving the goal post.


Nah it's actually a really important distinction these days because the left can't seem to understand the difference between the individual and the collective.
Spook
Posts: 41324
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
where we doing results watch to see scomo (c***) get the boot?
Vash
Posts: 5962
Location:



Nah it's actually a really important distinction these days because the left can't seem to understand the difference between the individual and the collective.


Swap out left with right, and its exactly the same.
No political side is immune to this.
infi
Posts: 24307
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

channel 2 abc. i got a bet on sportsbet that they win the night's ratings

anthony green no ads need i say more
Vash
Posts: 5963
Location:

I can't think of an election in my lifetime with two more boring, fake, unpersonable leaders as the choices for PM.
Abbott at least, was fun to meme and ridicule. But these two are so wooden and controlled in their behaviour. Wont somebody think of the memes?
infi
Posts: 24308
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I think almost all current politicians are Lizard people.

Hawke and Howard looked real. Now they all look like Mark Lizardberg executing some AI program.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2314
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

anthony green no ads need i say more

Australia's national treasure.

The daily tele really f***ed it up for the libs when they went after shortens mum, his response was the only human thing seen this entire campaign.
Vash
Posts: 5964
Location:

Late stage capitalism ehehe.
Have to wonder what effect it's having on society when social media companies pay alot of money figuring out how to hijack human psychology to keep you clicking and checking your likes/phone.

There's a trend of depression increasing , people have less close friends, more insecure about themselves. The highlight reel is what you see, and those people are trying to show to other highlight reels how well they're doing, while likely deeply unhappy and insecure. Bouncing off each other in a cruel disconnected way.

Funny (or sad) how the facade of choice and liberty is perhaps more invasive & totalitarian than any previous time in recent history. The public has been very cleverly deceived into thinking private access of every bit of information you type on your phone or recording every footstep you make, and where you go, is fine since its not the Government. (or isss it?)
What long term impacts this level of control these corporations have over people's psychology & private information remains to be seen.

But all is well. Continue to consume. Vote for this lizard. Btw climate change isn't real, something something climate has changed for all time etc etc.
Vash
Posts: 5965
Location:

Also:
http://filteries.com/politics
found this neat little political simulator

Edit: Tones has been annihilated. Delicious.
infi
Posts: 24309
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Edit: Tones has been annihilated. Delicious.


Oh and the LNP just won from behind. Told you it would be close Spook. ;)
Vash
Posts: 5966
Location:

Doesn't matter. Tones is gone, its a victory.
Back to the usual programming of a two party 'democracy'
PornoPete
Posts: 3488
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I feel like this is election is another hard body blow for journalism and polling companies.

Howard was on the ABC talking about how it had a "wif of 1993". Seems accurate.
Nmag
Posts: 1153
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Shorten's wife looked pretty.

Vash, I heard the Russian hacker bots corrupted our election.

https://i.imgflip.com/2qqpdl.jpg

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Spook
Posts: 41325
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
argh
dazedandconfused
Posts: 693
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Full explanation for Labor capitulation is this photo:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6zPuCPVsAALw5_.jpg
notgreazy
Posts: 987
Location: Other International

The LNP propaganda machine was running overtime. Well done.
PornoPete
Posts: 3489
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I wonder how much an attitude like that explains why Labor lost....
infi
Posts: 24310
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Treat people like s*** and call them rich greedy bastards for wanting to keep their own money. Expectt them to vote against you.
Vash
Posts: 5967
Location:

I would like to see how things would turn out if media corporations were worker, or consumer cooperatives instead of controlled by a mogul with an agenda. Make political parties publicly funded instead of by lobbyists. Create a federal ICAC.

I dont think anyone is opposed to the last two. (except lobbyists and politicians i guess) but the Greens are loony cos of GMOs and Nuclear or something.
PornoPete
Posts: 3490
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah well if you hold yourself out as believing in evidenced based policy and then completely ignore the evidence people might take your views on corruption less than seriously.
Rukh
Posts: 1132
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Best zinger was Antony Green's one about how Clive's spend worked out to about $1500 per vote gained, "but at least he'll get back a bit over $2 each vote".
All for failing to gain a single seat...
Though yes, it's quite possible despite failing to do anything for UAP he helped the LNP in Queensland against the ALP.
PornoPete
Posts: 3491
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yes well him and Bob Brown and his wee caravan antics.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2315
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Best zinger was Antony Green's one about how Clive's spend worked out to about $1500 per vote gained, "but at least he'll get back a bit over $2 each vote".
All for failing to gain a single seat...
Though yes, it's quite possible despite failing to do anything for UAP he helped the LNP in Queensland against the ALP.


i think he paid 60mil for a mining license bigger than adani.
Vash
Posts: 5968
Location:

Yeah well if you hold yourself out as believing in evidenced based policy and then completely ignore the evidence people might take your views on corruption less than seriously.


I dont think there is a party more aligned with evidence based policy than the Greens. That doesn't mean every single one of their policies are based on evidence. You can only vote for a party that is closest aligned to what you believe in, and I dont think anyone agrees with every single policy a party puts forward.
If you went to the lengths to analyse overall policy of the other parties, you'd find far more holes than the Greens.

I dont think their policy on GMOs or Nuclear is outrageous, and certainly doesn't reduce their credibility on how to deal with corruption.
PornoPete
Posts: 3492
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Well only 90% of the population disagree with you vash.

Sorry 89.7%

Your assessment of what constitutes "evidenced based" is a matter of supreme indifference.

The point was that GMO and nuclear policy are incredibly powerful tools for dealing with climate change so it is particularly revealing that the greens aren't evidenced based on these issues.

If they can't be taken seriously on the s*** they say matters to them most why should anyone listen to them about anything else.
Vash
Posts: 5969
Location:

Yeah im sure you know most of the public aren't exactly good at critically analysing political party's policies.
So using that as an argument is abit silly.

And you probably already know that GMOs and Nuclear aren't the only way to tackle climate change, and perhaps not the most cost effective way to go about it. So by not utilising these policies, does not reduce their credibility on tackling climate change either.
PornoPete
Posts: 3493
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

The thing is vash it's actually not clear there is an alternative to nuclear base power.

I'm sure you'll be able to provide some credible evidence on the relative cost of power mixes.

See here is where you've stitched yourself up.

If you can't critically analyse the green's policies, who the f*** are you to judge the general public's assessment of the major party's policies?

We already all know the answer to that by the by.
Vash
Posts: 5970
Location:

Iceland would like a word.
There other options for base load without Nuclear. Geo thermal & Hydro electric are great options for Australia.
Or we could just get more batteries & panels in people's homes.

I hope i dont need to link you showing how insanely expensive it is to build Nuclear plants. And then theres the problem of severe environmental catastrophe that increases in probability if most of the world started building alot more of them.
re: Chernobyl & Fukushima

the cost per kilowatt (KW) for utility-scale solar is less than $1,000, while the comparable cost per KW for nuclear power is between $6,500 and $12,250


Guess that makes The Greens some great economic managers by choosing the most cost effective way to beat climate change.

https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate2921
Stick it into sci hub for the detailed study.
This study details a plan for the U.S which utilises only 100GW of Nuclear power, out of a total of 1,529 GW installed capacity. And this is only because they are already built.
And it will not increase energy prices for the consumer.

Do you think most of the Australian public (or even you) would disconnect from their biases & beliefs to form a political opinion from reading into the science of policies of each party before they vote?
I would say a solid No. Cognitive dissonance is a weird thing, and its probably one of many reasons why we're at the point we are with the Trump phenomenon and an extremely undeserving party being re elected here.
PornoPete
Posts: 3494
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Well I knew it would be a vash special. But wow.

Yes vash Iceland

We should model our electricity mix on the geothermal used by a country with the population of Newcastle and sits on top of a volcano.

Let's not talk about the environmental record of hydro power in Australia. We pay the snowny scheme not to generate at the moment it's so bad.

And then you write this unironically.
Do you think most of the Australian public (or even you) would disconnect from their biases & beliefs to form a political opinion from reading into the science of policies of each party before they vote?


Here's a question vash. On what basis do you think you're any different to most people?

And FYI when you talk about Chernobyl as a live possibility in modern reactor technology you lose.
Vash
Posts: 5971
Location:

Ah, you conveniently ignored the study. And Fukushima being pretty recent. And the risk increasing if we built more Nuclear plants to offset Coal.

Once you manage to come up with a convincing argument in favor of another party maybe my beliefs could be swayed. I wont be holding my breath.

Also you never mention who you vote for. Im curious.
PornoPete
Posts: 3495
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

The abstract of the study which doesn't make the claim you say it does. Given that it's behind a paywall so you didn't read it I don't see why I should. It's linked to in the first article you googled isn't it vash.

Remind everyone again why Fukushima happened and what the death toll was?

It's related to your Iceland point.

And I'm not trying to sway you Vash. I'm demonstrating that you're guilty of the exact behaviour you say "most Australians" engage in.

Notice how suddenly you're not talking about copying Iceland.

I don't have the energy to rebut every half baked claim you make. It's enough that you think power for half of Ipswich is a killer point.
Vash
Posts: 5972
Location:


http://sci-hub.tw/https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate2921

here i put it into sci hub for you.

So you're trying to downplay the severity of Nuclear plant catastrophe. And dismiss the increasing risk if we build more plants. and the cost of it. I think your Nuclear argument has been just about slam dunked.

The population of Iceland is irrelevant. Australia contains the same natural resources available to *easily* supply renewable energy without nuclear. And then theres much of Europe rapidly moving towards 100% renewable.
The evidence and modelling is all there in the open. For countries as large as the United States.

But Iceland is small. Ya got me. Phew. well done.

And if you would like to point out how, exactly, i am guilty of the same behaviour? You have yet to make a reasonable point that the Greens are not credible for tackling corruption or climate change.
PornoPete
Posts: 3496
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So you're trying to downplay the severity of Nuclear plant catastrophe. And dismiss the increasing risk if we build more plants. and the cost of it. I think your Nuclear argument has been just about slam dunked.


I'm not downplaying anything. you can't or won't state the actual severity of the incident or its causes.

But Iceland is small. Ya got me. Phew. well done.


The population of Iceland is not irrelevant. The exact problem to solve with renewables is scale.

And Iceland was your choice as a country to model not mine. This petulant backpedaling feeds nicely into the point below.

And if you would like to point out how, exactly, i am guilty of the same behaviour?


You have yet to post anything critical of the greens policies on GMOs or nuclear. That is to say you've entirely failed to engage with them critically. Because you are too busy defending them from criticism.
When you, not me, give a list of reasons to doubt green policy then and only then will you have done what most Australians fail to do according to you.

Now as for anti corruption beyond saying there should be a federal anti corruption body what is the policy exactly? From what I've read it is characterised by the same lack of detail and I'll thought out broadbrush statements as their nuclear and GMO policies.

Edit. Oh and a postscript from article you linked to. My emphasis
Starting from nuclear,
hydroelectric (no pumped hydroelectric is considered), wind, and
solar PV plants that existed in 2012, our optimization model
designs a new cost-optimal electrical power system for the entire
contiguous US. The solution comprises wind, solar PV, natural
gas, nuclear and hydroelectric generators
Vash
Posts: 5973
Location:

I provided more examples than Iceland in my initial post. You just decided to stick to that example since its easy for you.
And still ignoring the U.S study.

I have already stated i do not agree with their GMO policy. You have the memory of a fish.
And we just addressed Nuclear. Im not against Nuclear generally, as ive stated before, and i would prefer alternatives that don't carry the risk & costs tied to it. The evidence is there that we don't need it.
Now if we did need Nuclear to reach 100% renewables, that would make me question the Greens credibility. and i would probably look elsewhere. But that isn't the case.

Now as for anti corruption beyond saying there should be a federal anti corruption body what is the policy exactly? From what I've read it is characterised by the same lack of detail and I'll thought out broadbrush statements as their nuclear and GMO policies.


The Greens were the first to propose a federal ICAC. A Labor ICAC would likely lack any teeth. But better than nothing. The LNP wants an ICAC hidden from the public eye (speaks volumes) As for the inner details of how it would work, well that probably won't come about until the policy is put to parliment.

Edit:
And you slotted in a quote proving you didnt read the study. at all.
Only 100GW of nuclear is being utilised in that study (again as i said before) and only because there are existing plants. They aren't building more. Groan.
PornoPete
Posts: 3497
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

The cost optimal approach incorporates nuclear vash.

Your argument was that nuclear is too expensive. You then link to a study saying the cheapest energy mix includes nuclear. This really isn't very difficult.

Now as for GMO when did you say you reject their policy? You said this
I dont think their policy on GMOs or Nuclear is outrageous,


And this
but the Greens are loony cos of GMOs and Nuclear or something.


So that last sentence should be read as vash completely disagrees with Greens GMO policy should it?

And when you say the policy isn't outrageous, you do know it's a total ban on the use of GMOs right?
Vash
Posts: 5974
Location:

Yeah. The cost of Nuclear being zero in that study, because, you know, they aren't building more.

I said it pages ago. The last time we spoke on this topic, basically on repeat.
A ban on GMOs isn't a deal breaker for me. Their other policies target the critical issues that others don't. That'll do pig.
PornoPete
Posts: 3498
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah. The cost of Nuclear being zero in that study, because, you know, they aren't building more.


Sigh the study suggests renewables can be expanded without increasing the cost of electricity from 11 US cents per kWh. It models nuclear generation at 6 US cents per kWH.

so nuclear energy is well below the target cost. By contrast Australia doesn't have any nuclear. So it's not clear we can go decommissioning coal at the same rate, because we don't have cheap low emissions base load generation to cover the short fall. Decommissioning coal here will almost certainly result in having to add new natural gas. Natural gas the US doesn't have to add because it's got nuclear.

Now the simple fact is that nuclear energy has a place in their model and it's cheaper than the target price per kWh. You tried argue that nuclear isn't cost effective and so the greens total ban on it is somehow justified.

Now again as with GMO if your main schtick is we have to fight climate change then it is a serious problem that with a serious lack of evidence you'd cut off a way to make deep cuts into CO2 emissions. It's a particularly strange place in policy to be ideological when you want to claim your evidenced based credentials.
Nmag
Posts: 1154
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

It appears to simply be Vash that the heart and sole of the Greens is the anti-nuclear brigade, and if Greens supported nuclear they would annoy some of their core voters who help them push their marxist BS.


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Vash
Posts: 5975
Location:

^and that, is pure ignorance on display. If you're still wondering why you're post limited, have another read of what you just posted.
PornoPete
Posts: 3499
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Well we can't all link to articles that undermine our own point.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2316
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I love it how Labor cuts a baby bonus and everyone doesn't mind, but f*** with a boomer give me and lose the election.
notgreazy
Posts: 989
Location: Other International

What I can't believe is why NBN f***up wasn't even brought up once. You god damn bastards who voted liberals f***ed up the backbone of our communications/data/science/EVERYTHING networks.
Vash
Posts: 5978
Location:

What I can't believe is why NBN f***up wasn't even brought up once. You god damn bastards who voted liberals f***ed up the backbone of our communications/data/science/EVERYTHING networks.


Not just that, but our economic performance as well, and taxation.
If you do the research, you'll find Labor's economic performance record over the last 40 years outpaces the LNP's.
And same with taxation, the LNP taxes overall, more so.

But lets just focus on the budget management, which is what every conservative will argue about when you talk about economic performance of the two parties.

It's very difficult to get this to people without cognitive dissonance kicking in.

Look at PP's arguing style as a good example.
PornoPete
Posts: 3500
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Bless. The guy linking to an article in which nuclear energy is cheap to show nuclear energy is expensive says everyone else has 'cognative dissonance'.

Hey vash in that study does new natural gas have to added by 2030?
Vash
Posts: 5980
Location:

Hehe ^ perfect example yet again
You sure got me. Saying the cost is zero for Nuclear in the study, from using existing nuclear plants, is me now claiming Nuclear is cheaper. How can anyone be this stupid?
Nmag
Posts: 1155
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


https://www.abc.net.au/news/elections/federal/2019/results/party-totals

https://i.imgur.com/Ks2RD2r.gif
Melbourne suburbs will start to vote the same way as Queensland, a key Labor operative has warned, spelling long-term danger for the party in its strongest state.
https://www.theage.com.au/federal-election-2019/melbourne-suburbs-turning-into-queensland-labor-warned-20190521-p51pjo.html

ABC destined for more cuts, unfortunately it won't be their biased web news service.

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PornoPete
Posts: 3501
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yes vash. The study doesn't model nuclear energy at zero though does it? It models it a 6 US cents per kWh.

I love that the model also barely reduces natural gas and assumes building new natural gas.
Vash
Posts: 5981
Location:

Yes vash. The study doesn't model nuclear energy at zero though does it? It models it a 6 US cents per kWh.


Look i know you're trying to clutch at something here, but you're completely missing the whole point. The study is only using Nuclear because they are already in operation, so that makes them very cost effective to use as a small portion of the model.
The cost per kWh is low because of this reason. So yes, the statement of zero is incorrect.

If Nuclear was never in the U.S, the study would use an alternative source rather than propose building one. But that's pure speculation.
I only say this based on what other countries in Europe are doing for their 100% renewable targets, as well as Australia's modelling.

The modelling shows Nuclear is just not cost effective as an option to build in places that don't already have them. And we don't need it for Australia.
PornoPete
Posts: 3502
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

That model does not have much to say on the cost effectiveness of building nuclear in the US and nothing to say for Australia.

I preface this by saying linking to an article on earth911.com titled solar vs nuclear stinks of vash googles solar vs nuclear and links to the first article which kind of reads like it supports your point. While unironically talking about cognitive dissonance and absent critical thinking skills in people who don’t vote for the greens.

I don’t bother to read your ‘research’ closely anymore because it invariably doesn’t make the point you think it does.

The study models a scenario in which it can expand solar and wind without increasing the lcoe cost per kWh from all sources above 11 cents or so. A significant portion of that mix is purchased at 6c per kWh ie nuclear.

The model assumes that natural gas is required to supplement wind and solar. Therefore it is not clear if nuclear didn’t exist the expansion could take place with existing technology prior to 2030 without any additional cost because additional natural gas would need to be added. It makes almost no reduction to natural gas overall and requires new natural gas capacity to be built.

I notice you also don’t mention that the model assumes changing the transmission grid of the entire continental US by 2030 (ie in 10.5 years). Whether that can be called an assumption as opposed to a fantasy remains to be seen.

So actually the start up costs of nuclear have very little bearing on what they were modeling. The low cost of current generation capacity does impact their ability to expand at no additional cost.

That doesn’t even begin to address the reasons why nuclear initial investment is so expensive. There is a huge literature on this issue. I’m confident you’ve read none of it.

That model does not show nuclear is not cost effective and indeed relies on it being low cost. Even if it did, it is one model. My cursory googling found that lcoe models of nuclear vary wildly. When you’ve gone and found one that doesn’t support your point, then you’ve done critical thinking.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 694
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

There are many ways you are incompetent, vash, but here's one off the top of my head:

Energy Source Mortality Rates; Deaths/yr/TWh



Coal – world average, 161

Coal – China, 278

Coal – USA, 15

Oil – 36

Natural Gas – 4

Biofuel/Biomass – 12

Peat – 12

Solar/rooftop – 0.44-0.83

Wind – 0.15

Hydro – world, 0.10

Hydro – world*, 1.4

Nuclear – 0.04

You're probably an anti-gun SJW too so this kind of argument should be right up your alley.
Spook
Posts: 41329
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
isnt every sane human being anti gun?
Nmag
Posts: 1156
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


^and that, is pure ignorance on display. If you're still wondering why you're post limited, have another read of what you just posted.


Yes, i see your point. I'm sober now.

Some noise at the neighbour's
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-23/more-than-250-arrested-indonesia-post-election-riots-second-day/11140758

https://www.abc.net.au/news/image/11140772-3x2-940x627.jpg



ABC reports in shifts in perception and omits that One Nation's increase in support was near double the increase in support the Greens achieved. They also point out that shift in environmental support went from 9% to "environment and the economy were pretty much neck and neck as the top issue". The article to write is "Clearly people care much more about the environment but are still not very supportive of the Greens". There is a story to be written around why this might be. I doubt we will see the article on ABC web news or The Guardian.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-24/federal-election-2019-vote-compass-australia-as-100-people/11114554
Dazzagc
Posts: 1566
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland


British PM Theresa May gooooooooooeeesss

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48395905?ns_source=twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_linkname=news_central&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking


dazedandconfused
Posts: 695
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

isnt every sane human being anti gun?


I can tell you've never set foot on a livestock farm. Or any farm actually
infi
Posts: 24311
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

spook is your typical suburban mid-level techhie vb drinker. don't expect him to ever have experienced the thrill of blowing roo's head clean off.
taggs
Posts: 6605
Location:

Double post
taggs
Posts: 6606
Location:

spook is your typical suburban mid-level techhie vb drinker. don't expect him to ever have experienced the thrill of blowing roo's head clean off.


I'm a 2A fan and have a decent amount of experience using them in a primary producer context (and heaps more in a recreational context) but your post feels a bit iffy tbh infi. I've killed, cleaned and eaten a buncha animals (and killed a multiple more pests) but never got a thrill when they died. YMMV
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2317
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Shotguns and bolt action rifles are fine if you're in the bush or hunting food.

No one needs automatic weapons and or pistols.
taggs
Posts: 6607
Location:

Shotguns and bolt action rifles are fine if you're in the bush or hunting food.

No one needs automatic weapons and or pistols.


How the world looks from the inner west of Sydney isn't necessarily how the world looks from rural Utah for example but feel free to look down your nose at your fellow man.

I'm guessing you have nfi what you're talking about bringing up automatic weapons.

How dumb is everyone who doesn't think like me amirite.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2318
Location: Sydney, New South Wales



How the world looks from the inner west of Sydney isn't necessarily how the world looks from rural Utah for example but feel free to look down your nose at your fellow man.

I'm guessing you have nfi what you're talking about bringing up automatic weapons.

How dumb is everyone who doesn't think like me amirite.

I grew up in country QLD, but please feel free to inform me about more things.

^Not that that gives me qualification but, please present a f***ing argument? Why do people need the guns I said that no one needs?
PornoPete
Posts: 3503
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Is there some reason he should give an argument? You didn't and you're not qualified and just said nobody needs something.

That's not an argument. It's your opinion.
Spook
Posts: 41331
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
spook is your typical suburban mid-level techhie vb drinker. don't expect him to ever have experienced the thrill of blowing roo's head clean off.


i dont like hurting animals, unless they are my children.

(eating delicious meats is fine though)
PornoPete
Posts: 3504
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

What about delicious roo meat with its head blown clean off?
Spook
Posts: 41332
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
i love brotein as much as the next bro, so roo meat is fine. as long as the roo didnt feel anything while its head was falling off.

im not sure that causing a roos head to fall off would give me an erection like it does infi though.

i prefer not to think about it.
PornoPete
Posts: 3505
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

All I'm saying is after infi has had a chance to calm down and you've stopped beating your kids you could have a bbq.
Twisted
Posts: 12395
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I'm guessing you have nfi what you're talking about bringing up automatic weapons.
He's probably not in the business of shooting up kindergartens, should be able to give him a pass on that.
notgreazy
Posts: 992
Location: Other International


I grew up in country QLD, but please feel free to inform me about more things.

^Not that that gives me qualification but, please present a f***ing argument? Why do people need the guns I said that no one needs?
country QLD

Mate, Rockhampton is not country QLD you bogan
dazedandconfused
Posts: 696
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Shotguns and bolt action rifles are fine if you're in the bush or hunting food.

No one needs automatic weapons and or pistols.


A semi-auto rifle is far more effective for hunting/culling than a bolt-action. Far more humane too in the event of a non-fatal hit. Don't let that stop you flapping your pre-programmed jaw about something you know nothing about.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2319
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Mate, Rockhampton is not country QLD you bogan


I was closer to gladstone, but yeah keep trying.


A semi-auto rifle is far more effective for hunting/culling than a bolt-action. Far more humane too in the event of a non-fatal hit. Don't let that stop you flapping your pre-programmed jaw about something you know nothing about.


I hope you voted for the animal justice party, because you clearly care about their well being and maybe you are a bad shot?
Vash
Posts: 5982
Location:

https://i.imgur.com/ZJcQ4JK.jpg
fpot
Posts: 26545
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

A semi-auto rifle is far more effective for hunting/culling than a bolt-action. Far more humane too in the event of a non-fatal hit
What's the time difference between cycling the action, lining up and shooting again versus just shooting again? A second and a half maybe? Seems like a weak justification for allowing weapons that are also much more effective at shooting humans in a crowded environment to me. Then again, all your arguments are weak. Also if you want to be the big working class man gun shooting guy maybe learn how to shoot.
PornoPete
Posts: 3506
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Then again, all your arguments are weak.


Coming from a guy who thinks releasing a report is a cover-up
dazedandconfused
Posts: 697
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I hope you voted for the animal justice party, because you clearly care about their well being and maybe you are a bad shot?


When you have sometimes dozens of shots a night often on moving and distant targets a miss-hit is inevitable. Any hunter that says every shot will be an instant kill is completely full of s***.

What's the time difference between cycling the action, lining up and shooting again versus just shooting again


I feel like responding to fpot now is more out of pity for his mental deficiencies but regardless. The time is more than enough to lose an animal in scrub. Not only that you need to move your head away from your scope, bolt, then find the eye relief again which means you're not even looking at your target for 1-2 seconds. I can only suggest you, like redhat, speak from places other than out your a******.

Other than that, the moment I take shooting advice from nobodies is the moment I stop shooting.
fpot
Posts: 26546
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

It's so adorable how these cute little alt-right basement dwellers always pretend to be something they aren't. Lawyers, doting fathers and now hunters it seems.
PornoPete
Posts: 3507
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It really is just terminal intellectual insecurity which drives you isn't it fpot.

That was tragic.
Vash
Posts: 5983
Location:

Remind me again why anyone needs a fully automatic rifle? Dazed makes an argument for semis but unfortunately they are easily modified to fully auto, and not to mention a semi was used in Port Arthur.
Nmag
Posts: 1157
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

fpot thinks in simple terms like left and right.

I'm not keen on civilians in cities having any firearms unless they really need one or they practice a s***load and compete or something.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 698
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

It's so adorable how these cute little alt-right basement dwellers always pretend to be something they aren't. Lawyers, doting fathers and now hunters it seems.


So yeah yet again fpot sets the bar real low and still fails to clear it.

Remind me again why anyone needs a fully automatic rifle?


We can have the gun argument forever. Fundamentally it boils down to the left prioritising (maybe even singularly concerned about) the rights of a society, supposedly derived from a democratic vote, and the right prioritising the rights of the individual. While you have two world-views every argument from the opposing side will be dismissed simply because it isn't ranked high enough on the belief system.
notgreazy
Posts: 995
Location: Other International

Hey Infi what do you think of the current liberal leadership? Dutton is a corrupt bastard, you must have some reservations on him being reelected in such a dodgy way.
Vash
Posts: 5984
Location:

We can have the gun argument forever. Fundamentally it boils down to the left prioritising (maybe even singularly concerned about) the rights of a society, supposedly derived from a democratic vote, and the right prioritising the rights of the individual. While you have two world-views every argument from the opposing side will be dismissed simply because it isn't ranked high enough on the belief system.


You dodged that question nicely.
Is it hurting individual freedom if they can't own a fully armed abrams tank? There are limits in what the individual should be allowed access to, for the safety of the public.
Semi & Fully automatic rifles fall into that category, and barring mentally ill people from owning them is not enough.
Extremism (which is growing from the right side of politics) and school shootings will continue to happen until the U.S wakes the f*** up and stop being pussies in dealing with gun nuts.

The right to bear arms may have been a nice law back in 1791, but have a looksie at the capability of the military now and tell me you need your guns to defend yourself from the Government.
PornoPete
Posts: 3508
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

The right to bear arms may have been a nice law back in 1791, but have a looksie at the capability of the military now and tell me you need your guns to defend yourself from the Government.


War in Afghanistan entering its 19th year.
fpot
Posts: 26547
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

So in lieu of posting Mueller's press conference which affirms that a literal criminal is currently president of the united states and having the same dolts copy paste the lies fox news use to help cover it up I'll instead ask this -

Who has actually read the report? I've read most of it. To me it was pretty much sex in text. All those funny niggling feelings I had about certain events and behaviours pretty much explained.

For those who have actually had a go at reading it can you pretty please tell me if this summary of thoughts is completely off.

- Russia committed a cyber attack on the 2016 US Presidential Election
- the trump team were aware of the attack and did nothing to stop it
- the trump team assisted the attack by communicating, working with and clearing the path for the Russians
- none of which constitutes a criminal conspiracy
- despite this the trump team recognised how politically damaging it would be to be seen assisting a foreign superpower in attacking the US and covered up and lied about the ways in which they helped
- in the act of covering that up they committed the crime of obstruction of justice

My view on Mueller's intentions for how the report was to be received

- it is a policy of the DoJ that a sitting president cannot be indicted
- Volume 1 of the report was to provide the ammunition for impeachment.
- once trump is impeached, charges for obstruction of justice can be laid, which is Volume 2.

Mueller made the mistake of assuming that the AG would do their job. What you saw from Mueller today was what Barr should have said, but didn't, because Barr's job is to protect the president. How he has been cajoled into doing that is something that will only be known in the future.

Please try to ignore the flailing numpties who will claim everything I said is 'false' and accuse me of not reading the report. They know I've read it, they're hoping you haven't.
PornoPete
Posts: 3509
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

When he isn't impeached the tears of fpot are going to be glorious.

Another prediction. Trump will never be convicted of obstruction of justice.

Fpot doesn't know how to read a legal document.

The report doesn't say the campaign didn't conspire. It say the campaign didn't co-ordinate. That wording is important, because it covers behaviour that doesn't rise to criminality.

It also renders almost every takeaway of fpots wrong.
Vash
Posts: 5985
Location:

PP is right for once that he wont be convicted. Because former Presidents don't goto jail in the United States.
There's definitely enough evidence though that he should be impeached. If he doesn't, it's a failure on all levels of Government, and the fault mostly falls on his supporters eating up all kinds of bulls*** from Fox News, causing Republican politicians to basically do nothing about it. They have literally convinced his base that there's a deep state conspiracy to bring down Trump.
Clearly, Trump did something that he feared would be discovered in the investigation, hence the lengths he went to obstruct it.

Any other sane democracy he'd be gone by now. But this is the U.S we're talking about.
fpot
Posts: 26549
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

A sane democracy would never elect him. Even if all the Russia stuff was wished away you'd still have one of the most infamous US presidencies in history. Ths period right now will still be discussed in a centuries time. WW2, Cold War, 90s, 9/11, Trump... what's next? Somehow I don't think it will be another 90s.
PornoPete
Posts: 3510
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

There it is. The praying for a do over.

Living in the end times hey fpot.
Nmag
Posts: 1158
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

The TDS is the only thing they will be talking about in a hundred years. How pathetic to think you actually live in a remarkable time. The most remarkable thing that has happened in the last 20 years is Bush making up reasons to go to Iraq and America going around waring all over the place.

They voted him in. People are likely glad the Clinton Foundation, and Bernie are not in. Many of the voters were irritated by Obamacare and they wanted change. They got change. The guy is just trying to do what he said he would do, what they voted him in to do, regardless if they are 'good' things to do. The voters who voted him generally want them to stop being world cop. His red face and hair are strange and he says some outrageous stuff, but journalists work very hard at making Trump nothings into somethings. fopt is dreaming. Trump is a non story in comparison to other stuff in a period of centuries.

Is Hillary a reptile? Some say they have been living amongst us for a long time.

https://i.4pcdn.org/tv/1530909622597.png
dazedandconfused
Posts: 699
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Extremism (which is growing from the right side of politics)


For the love of God stop watching CNN.

school shootings will continue to happen until the U.S wakes the f*** up and stop being pussies in dealing with gun nuts.


Is this the same guy demanding that daddy government come and take the bad boom boom sticks away whilst calling them pussies for not doing so? The left are indistinguishable from runty children. Go and do it yourself vash. Let me know how that goes.

The right to bear arms may have been a nice law back in 1791, but have a looksie at the capability of the military now and tell me you need your guns to defend yourself from the Government.


Maybe have a looksie at your favourite country Venezuela and how they fared after private gun ownership was banned (literally less than a decade ago) and also have a looksie at the weaponry available to the Continental army during the Revolutionary War when the citizens and also British military deserters with their cannons and automatic weapons joined the Continental army.

Mueller made the mistake of assuming that the AG would do their job. What you saw from Mueller today was what Barr should have said, but didn't, because Barr's job is to protect the president. How he has been cajoled into doing that is something that will only be known in the future.
Go ahead and ignore what both the special counsel and the AG office say about the garbage you come out with. Your rants are becoming more and more hysterical if that is even possible.

Not only that, your Trump-hater Mueller is the one who can't keep his story straight. He is deliberately using language to get simpletons like you to froth at the mouth about impeachment, which of course you duly oblige.
PornoPete
Posts: 3511
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

To be fair to Mueller, he said the report is his testimony and despite what fpot has managed to convince himself of, the report expressly deals with the issue of proving obstruction and the difficulty with intent when there is no underlying crime.

Mind you it didn't seem to bother Ken Starr any, the OLC policy. He recommended Bill Clinton be prosecuted.

The evidence also makes very very clear that the Trump campaign didn't co-ordinate with the Russian efforts.

The most "damning" section is Paul manaforts and the report and expressly stated that the contact happened after the Russian operation was public knowledge.

Because fpot and his ilk are so stupid they can't see two steps in front of them.

Congress can issue articles of impeachment. Because high crimes and misdemeanors means basically what ever Congress says it does.

So the democrats could impeach for contact with an ambassador at a speech for example. But watch Republicans do exactly the same thing. Remember when democrats thought it was an awesome idea to get rid of the filibuster for SC nominations? How'd that work out for them? Pretty funny really.

That's why it's always been linked to actual crimes by convention. Breaking that convention especially when the senate won't remove would be electoral death for the Dems and they know it.
fpot
Posts: 26551
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

So do you post those links with a description saying I'm wrong in the blind hope that no one will click and read them? Because they say nothing of the sort.

Is this that tactic dumb dumbs use where they try to get someone to repeat themselves endlessly in an effort to bore them out of the argument? I've seen that one a lot. I guess I'll have to wait till tomorrow for an answer on that one (lol)
Nmag
Posts: 1159
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Is she making this stuff up?

Video: https://youtu.be/AlgZfTSTO6w
PornoPete
Posts: 3512
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Fpot lives on projection.

Notice how he is talking about hoping people won't follow links?

His post in which he makes factual assertions about 400+ page document doesn't even link to the document much less reference specific parts of it.

He thinks he is winning or something. Impeachment isn't going to happen.

The heartbreak when it dawns on him there isn't going to be a do over is going to be delicious.
fpot
Posts: 26555
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

You can't actually be serious posting something like that can you?
Vash
Posts: 5986
Location:

Phew dazed that post was a doozy.

https://i.imgur.com/GO7D8WJ.png

Ill just leave this here for you since its nice and simple.
PornoPete
Posts: 3513
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I'm deadly serious fpot

Maybe I misread this

To me it was pretty much sex in text.


But I doubt it.

I don't think you've read it. But even if you have I'm confident you don't understand it.

Just by way of example. If you've read the document you'll be able to to tell me the meaning of the first sentence of page 213 or page 1 of volume 2.



Most importantly you'll be able to read that and be able to tell me William Barr's role was in you being able to read the document at all.

Then you'll be able to tell me whatever the f*** this means

Mueller made the mistake of assuming that the AG would do their job.


Seeing as you've launched a coeur di cri for people to read primary documents you won't mind having your knowledge of them tested.

Ill just leave this here for you since its nice and simple.


Now do radical islam.
Vash
Posts: 5987
Location:

Ah the ole whataboutsie that has nothing to do with anything being discussed.
If a trump defender sees something they dont like just bring up Venezula, radical Islam or Antifa. It's the easy way out.

Fact is, right-wing terrorism is on the rise since Trump was elected. And his supporters are blind to the crimes he's committed which would land a non president in jail.
So, anyone defending him believe he should be above the law, and seem to enjoy the idea of concentrated power as long as it's on their side of politics.

A good attorney analyses a report leaving his political biases behind. PP isn't one of them.
PornoPete
Posts: 3514
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Lot of words there vash. Not much of a response. Wasn't expecting one from the guy who say we don't need nuclear and presents a model that relies on nuclear.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 700
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Ill just leave this here for you since its nice and simple.


Yeah that's kind of your problem Vash. You think everything is as simple as a pretty diagram that proves nothing because you are also simple.

To prove my point:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/u726mGq4pbAfW1if-5nifaLB-tM=/941x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/3MX4XXW3JBEGVJ3KAPHLAAI2TA.png

Edit:

Source: US Extreme Crime Database and Right Wing Terrorism and Violence in Western Europe dataset.

Because sources matter so much to Vash. The funny thing is the START consortium used the same data except Vash has cherry picked a decade and has also plotted a graph with zero context and zero trends. How embarrassing. Can't wait for him to now finally admit he is actually completely wrong because Vash is a totally reasonable lefty and always does so.

I can post once every 24 hours Vash. You still get wiped and come back for more using the same busted tactics.
Spook
Posts: 41336
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
12 people dead in the US this morning in a shooting.

it would be lolz, if it wasnt so horrible.
infi
Posts: 24312
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Japanese mass stabbing leaves 3 dead 19 injured. Qld mother kills herself and 4 children in head on collision murder/suicide. What's your point?
Spook
Posts: 41337
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
frequency?
infi
Posts: 24313
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Then we would be much better off focusing on extremist Islamic terror attacks if that is the measure.
Spook
Posts: 41338
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
lolz, americans kill way more americans than any other nation (is killing americans).

BUT ITS OUR RIGHT TO HAVE GUNS TO PROTECT US!
Vash
Posts: 5988
Location:

Your chart has no source dazed. mine does.

Infi does exactly as predicted and goes straight to Islamic terrorism. Do you want to address the rise of right-wing terrorism that is linked to Trump being elected? And the fact that Nazis love him?

Edit:
Thought not.
But Trump is great and liberal tears are delicious. /s
Nmag
Posts: 1160
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Do NAZIS really love him? I'm not surprised if they do, but real "love'... Is it just another left wing exaggeration where we smith words to suit the narrative?

Is there are source for that fact?

the fact that Nazis love him


Also, when will The Guardian and ABC web news write more articles about the dangers of the Far Left? They seem to like to write so much about the Far RIght. The boogie man coming to get people. The right wing is scary and evil if you read ABC news and The Guardian. Are these left wing rebel rousers not satisfied with using political correctness to call negatives around social issues "hate speech"? They want to shut down conversation that conflicts with their values (like Trog does with his post limiting), give the left more voice, and tend to promote a justified hate of the right.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish

I watched your below video Vash:

"love". I don't think so. Maybe they support some of his more nationalistic principles like closing the border. That's what he basically says.. and he says they won't endorse Trump. I think your seeing more in the video than there actually is. The video is made by people who support your comment and the best they could get from editing was some spooky music and a guy with a MAGA cap on and what I basically mentioned about the border. Surely they could could up with more?
Vash
Posts: 5989
Location:



But feel free to say fake news because its Vox.

Btw, left wing terrorism isnt on the rise. But there sure are alot of lefties protesting the views of trump supporters with perhaps some violent punch ups here in there, but i haven't seen a mass shooting by one yet.
PornoPete
Posts: 3515
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It's fake news because it's Vox.

Bernie bro shoots Republican congressional members

You're ability for confirmation bias doesn't mean s*** doesn't happen vash.
Vash
Posts: 5990
Location:

Huh noone died except the shooter. I knew you'd find one for me PP. thanks.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 701
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Mueller and his team are totally non-biased and totally trustworthy and totally didn't waste taxpayer dollars on a bogus investigation.

Huh noone died except the shooter. I knew you'd find one for me PP. thanks.


So because the shooter was a poor shot it doesn't count. A bit like how 100million dead by communism doesn't count. Look at yourself real hard in the mirror sometime, Vash.
PornoPete
Posts: 3516
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Huh noone died except the shooter. I knew you'd find one for me PP. thanks.


Gee I hope your not trying to minimise political violence against elected officials vash.

Kind of makes your hysterical shrieking about right wing terrorism hard to take seriously.

Well harder. It's already difficult.
Vash
Posts: 5991
Location:

Even if there were deaths, it still doesn't indicate a trend. There's a clear link that right-wing extremists have been inspired by Trump's presidency.
100 million dead by Communism, there's the strawman. The mirror for you is ugly that's why you pull out these ridiculous arguments.

Not at all PP. You can twist my words however you like. Any mass shooting is a terrible thing. You just need to face the music when it comes to the damage Trump's influence is having.
PornoPete
Posts: 3517
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yes vash your comment truely conveys the seriousness of a person who volunteered for Bernie Sanders campaign trying to assassinate members of Congress.

While we are talking about things rhetoric inspire.

The simple fact is you've gone and linked to something which you think (but doesn't actually) supports your case. Again.

You don't understand extremism and it's trends anymore than you demonstrably don't understand electricity generation and distribution, refugees or any of the other myriad of issues you've made a fool of yourself over and over again.
Vash
Posts: 5992
Location:

Dont worry PP, i dont expect anyone here, especially with an ego like yours to be able to face the reality of the situation when they previously argued in defence of Trump.
PornoPete
Posts: 3518
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I'm not worried vash.

It just entertains me to watch you contort yourself trying to maintain the idea that you have some political insight when you've been slapped up and down the yard on every issue you've ever posted on.

For example, you post to Vox while suggesting fox news watchers are brainwashed.

Vox makes no bones about its political bias it wears it on its sleeve. But you post it as though it's the last word.
Vash
Posts: 5993
Location:

Try again PP. Vox have a proven high level of factual reporting. Fox news does not.
And Vox is only left biased in the U.S since it has shifted so far to the right. It could be considered centrist here in Australia.

As i predicted, you are again showing you're only capable of trying to discredit the poster & source, rather than address the facts presented. Hopefully one day you can pull yourself out of that safe space of yours.
PornoPete
Posts: 3519
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

No it doesn't vash. The people who founded vox are very clear on this point.

Ezra Klein a "centrist" is hysterical.

And what ever you did to irony with this should be a crime:

Fox news does not.
As i predicted, you are again showing you're only capable of trying to discredit the poster & source, rather than address the facts presented.


Again that post where you aren't completely internally contradictory with in the space of two sentences is out there vash. I believe in you little guy.
Vash
Posts: 5994
Location:

Keep trying PP. You can do it.
Just alittle more critical thinking and you might reach a conclusion that Trump is bad and Vox s***s all over fox news on fact based reporting.

Or have another look at the chart i posted with a source and the interviews with nazis. Or the video of richard spencer saluting the victory of Trump being elected.
It's all out there. You can change your ways. There might be hope for you.

Though probably not.
PornoPete
Posts: 3520
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah I'm not the one who thinks Richard Spencer is a force in American politics vash.

That does fairly significant violence to this claim:
and Vox s***s all over fox news on fact based reporting.


But let's see if you can mutilate irony's corpse while we are here.

Should Richard Spencer be attacked violently in the street by a mob?
Vash
Posts: 5995
Location:

I can throw random unrelated questions too.
Should you be ignoring the rise of right wing terrorism and throwing strawmans instead? Almost as if you're an apologist for these terrorists by doing that eh?
and very quick to want to look to Islamic terrorism and an isolated left-wing incident instead.

Still wanna defend Trump after learning the trend of said terrorism? The Mueller report? The cosiness with Nazis?

Still think republicans will put forward a plan for climate change?

Critical issues i'd say.
PornoPete
Posts: 3521
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I can throw random unrelated questions too.


Bless, that question is on point vash, I'm not going to waste my time explaining why. I already know your answer and it's why you aren't to be taken seriously on the issue of extremism.

I've no interest in revisiting "punching Nazis". You've already paid forward the idiocy. Suffice it to say if you think brawling in the streets (and you've said you do) is acceptable then you are a fundamentally unserious person on the topic of extremism. Which is in keeping with the rest of your opinions.
Vash
Posts: 5996
Location:

Hmm PP sees no difference between mass murder and punching Nazis. Your credibility just dropped to new levels.
It's now on display for all that PP supports right-wing terrorism. Trog, is this allowed under the forum rules?
PornoPete
Posts: 3522
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Vash is stuck in a bad analogy loop again. I enjoy this part of the game when he sees something I've said and then applies it incorrectly.

In this case
Gee I hope your not trying to minimise political violence against elected officials vash.

Kind of makes your hysterical shrieking about right wing terrorism hard to take seriously.

Well harder. It's already difficult.


See vash I'm saying something quite different. I'm saying that your opinions on the nature and causes of extremism are suspect because you are comfortable with political violence.

Hmm PP sees no difference between mass murder and punching Nazis


Oh good so I was right then. You do think it's ok.

See I got you to do this

But let's see if you can mutilate irony's corpse while we are here.


When I flat out told you that's what I was doing.
Vash
Posts: 5997
Location:

Political violence, in the form of punching a nazi, is completely fine in my book. Majority of the world agrees im sure.

As im sure you're fine with punching a guy who f***ed your wife. Is it wrong in the eyes of the law? Of course. But people who commit these things, and subscribe to Nazi ideology, punch away.
It also doesn't reach the definition of terrorism. But please, try again. I want to see if you're actually capable of thinking beyond your safe bubble.

You equivalate punching Nazis as being on the level as mass shootings committed by right wing extremists. This is being an apologist for the actions of these terrorists. Mass murder. versus punching a guy. And your true colors are now on display and Trog should ban you for this line of thinking.
PornoPete
Posts: 3523
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Vash what you're doing to irony borders on necrophilia now.

The world doesn't agree with you. Its why "but he was a nazi" isn't a defence to assault.

I'm not equating mass shootings with punching people.

I'm saying that a person who simultaneously believes Trump's rhetoric causes right wing terrorism and it's ok to punch people including nazis (and who minimises shooting Congress members) is either extremely stupid or extremely cynical. Hence they are fundamentally unserious on the causes of extremism.
Vash
Posts: 5998
Location:

Ah ha. My posts on the topic certainly aren't showing how serious i am on the rise of extermism linked to Trump. Are you really that empty?
Yet you have not addressed the issue once. You're outright showing you're an apologist for the rise of right wing terrorism.

You're shaping the narrative to punching nazis, and the isolated incident of shooting congress members. There is no trend of increasing mass shootings with either of these.
You've refused to address it, and choose to instead defend the rise of right-wing extremism by deflecting to isolated incidents that are no where near the level of severity. That is very suprising even from you PP.

Now i know the kind of person you really are.
PornoPete
Posts: 3524
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

No vash I'm doing something much more vanilla.

I'm demonstrating specifically your opinion on right wing terrorism is not one to take seriously.

You've been most helpful in this task.
See this is helpful
You're shaping the narrative to punching nazis, and the isolated incident of shooting congress members.


Because if you're suggesting that is a slippery slope fallacy, then a fortiori Trumps rhetoric is a not slippery slope.

It's also enjoyable to watch your performative outrage when you've been spanked yet again.
Nmag
Posts: 1161
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Vash, it's not so much Trump, it's people annoyed at the others. Obama and some other left politicians around the world annoyed people enough to strengthen opposition. Markel and her band are likely in the poo, just like the left here had refugee boats peaking ~ 2010 and Rud handed out $900 for individuals to waste. People don't like that stuff.
trillion
Posts: 4421
Location: Ballarat, Victoria
It's also enjoyable to watch your performative outrage when you've been spanked yet again.


little gems like this make continuing to read this thread slaw kinda worthwhile
Spook
Posts: 41341
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
2010 and Rud handed out $900 for individuals to waste. People don't like that stuff.


this was the highlight of my life. A political masterstroke. (old fashioned baby bonus was second best time evar)