top_left top_right
bottom_left
Next Event: Unknown | Forum Rules | QGL Website | Event Registration
openFolder AusForums.com
iconwatfolderLineopenFolder LANs
iconwatfolderLineopenFolder QGL
iconwatfolderLineopenFolder QGL Forum
Author
Topic: Political Thread 3 Page: < 1 2 3 4 >
fpot
Posts: 26862
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Whenever people who have inevitably lost the argument about Trump and then go down the age-old Godwin's Law route always remind me of this meme.
Let's see what the man himself has to say about this -

Mike Godwin himself has also criticized the overapplication of Godwin's law, claiming it does not articulate a fallacy; it is instead framed as a memetic tool to reduce the incidence of inappropriate, hyperbolic comparisons. "Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics," Godwin wrote, "its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about the Holocaust."

In December 2015, Godwin commented on the Nazi and fascist comparisons being made by several articles about Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump, saying: "If you're thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler when you talk about Trump, or any other politician."[13] In August 2017, Godwin made similar remarks on social networking websites Facebook and Twitter with respect to the two previous days' Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, endorsing and encouraging efforts to compare its alt-right organizers to Nazis.

In October 2018, Godwin said on Twitter that it is acceptable to call Brazilian politician (later became President) Jair Bolsonaro a "Nazi". In June 2019, after Chris Hayes invoked Godwin's Law in a discussion of whether it was appropriate to call the United States's refugee detention centers "concentration camps," Godwin explicitly stated his belief that the term "concentration camps" was appropriate.
infi
Posts: 24515
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Now THAT's irony.
PornoPete
Posts: 3843
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Imitation is a sincere from of flattery vash.

Godwin succumbing to his own law is the joke I didn't know I needed.

That and fpot saying trump not resigning because of a report that said he didn't do anything means democracy is broken. Genius.
Vash
Posts: 6193
Location:

Correction, a report that said he obstructed justice and lead to arrests of multiple advisers. The democrats have been very reasonable with dealing with him. But when you got a bats*** crazy republican base listening to the Trump mouthpieces, evidence and facts have no meaning.
PornoPete
Posts: 3844
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

No it didn't vash.

It very clearly stated it didn't make a decision about obstruction of justice.

And no-one has been arrested over Russian interference in the 2016 election.

Always dangerous to stray from r/latestagecapitalism copypasta.
Vash
Posts: 6194
Location:

he didn't do anything
it didn't make a decision


Nice.
PornoPete
Posts: 3845
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Someone doesn't understand the presumption of innocence.

Add it to the list.
Vash
Posts: 6195
Location:

Someone also doesnt seem to be paying attention. 'he didn't do anything'
Just a 20 minute phone call folks. Just a press conference. List goes on.
PornoPete
Posts: 3846
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

List goes on.


Aw see you can't help yourself can you. Type what you see vash.

Thanks for clearing up you really don't understand why those two sentences are consistent.

I love that you're celebrating the democrats concreting trump in for 2020.
infi
Posts: 24516
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Impeachment victory
Vash
Posts: 6196
Location:

The tweets age so well. Like father like son.

https://i.imgur.com/PPlkcoS.jpg
PornoPete
Posts: 3847
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Great comeback vash.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 812
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Another day, some more gems from Vash and fpot.

If Trump obstructed justice and colluded with Russia then why did the Democrats not impeach him for that? I want you guys to try real hard to engage your brain today. Maybe tomorrow we won't be on the rinse-repeat cycle of completely botching the Mueller report.
Vash
Posts: 6197
Location:

It's all political. Democrats weren't going to push for impeachment on just obstruction evidence, they wouldnt have enough support. Trump is a trainwreck so it was a matter of time until he f***ed up again, and here we are.
If he was put on trial without the politics, he'd be done.
infi
Posts: 24517
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

It's all political.


No s***. So why didn't they wait for an election in 12 months, instead of this utterly pointless exercise.
PornoPete
Posts: 3848
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It's a special brand of stupid that says impeachment is political as though that's an insight.

But just to be clear in vash/fpot land "attacking America" shouldn't be impeached because "politics" but giving military aid to Ukraine should be.

I see today master tactician Pelosi really is threatening not to send the articles to the senate.

Trump had been uniquely blessed with an opposition that is just desperate to make fools of themselves.

"Obvious crimes" which weren't named in the articles of impeachment. The power of propaganda.
Vash
Posts: 6198
Location:

Well when a leader of a country commits obvious crimes and breached his oath of office, you dont just wait until an election to remove him.
Hes now trying to make it not about him, but that its an attack on the people.
infi
Posts: 24518
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Well when a leader of a country commits obvious crimes and breached his oath of office, you dont just wait until an election to remove him.
Hes now trying to make it not about him, but that its an attack on the people.


You do if 1.) It's purely political partisan ploy. 2.) You have literally ZERO chance of being successful.
Vash
Posts: 6199
Location:

Yeah, and his voters aren't interested in those crimes, which means the Republicans wont be either. All they could do is try to save face by bringing up Biden & Conspiracy theories in the impeachment inquiry.
PornoPete
Posts: 3849
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Pretty sure vash didn't understand what you said infi.

But just wow, how deeply stewing in pure propaganda to think that way.

Trump committed obvious crimes but there is not a single reference to the criminal code in the articles.

They are so obvious I guess they just forgot to put em in eh?
infi
Posts: 24519
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Vash the impeachment process was never going to result in removal. It's like jumping out of a plane and knowing you didn't even pack a parachute beforehand.
fpot
Posts: 26863
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

trump's extreme criminality forced the dems to impeach. There are enough conspiracy numpties who believe that trump has done nothing wrong and that the impeachment process was unfair while also being some sort of hoax to create a nice little surge of support. That's what infi is celebrating. A president so brazen in committing crimes that the opposing side is forced to take action despite the knowledge it may harm them.
PornoPete
Posts: 3850
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

trump's extreme criminality forced the dems to impeach


See like the Mueller report fpot is sketchy on the detail.

The articles of impeachment do not refer to the US criminal code at all.

Odd if he has engaged in "extreme criminality". But then we all really know "extreme criminality" means "fpot has his panties in a scrunch over the results of the 2016 election".

A president so brazen in committing crimes that the opposing side is forced to take action despite the knowledge it may harm them.


Imagine really believing this.
Vash
Posts: 6200
Location:

Alot of his 'best people' are criminals. Scum attracts scum.
PornoPete
Posts: 3851
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So that was a no you can't name a single crime Trump has been impeached over.

It's not surprising. Not much of a reader are ya little fella.
infi
Posts: 24520
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The Mueller report was supposed to be damning. It couldn't generate an impeachment. And the s*** he's being impeached on is not a criminal offence because he's a Head of State talking to another head of state. For f***'s sake Biden hit the same country up to remove. A prosecutor as well. This is hopeless, embarrassing potato level politicking.
Vash
Posts: 6201
Location:


Got that from Trump's ad did we, Infi?

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2019/oct/11/donald-trump/trump-ad-misleads-about-biden-ukraine-and-prosecut/

He doesnt have a good track record with honesty unfortunately.


infi
Posts: 24521
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

ohhhh so THAT threat to withhold funding until the Ukraine prosecutor was fired was OK. RIGGGHHHHT
PornoPete
Posts: 3852
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

f*** me. The lack of reading. And also lol PolitiFact.

It rates this comment as "false"

Fact: Joe Biden pressured Ukraine to fire its prosecutor .... Fact: the prosecutor said he was forced out for leading a corruption probe into Hunter Biden's company. Fact: Democrats want to impeach President Trump for discussing this investigation with Ukraine's President."


But it goes on to say.

Biden assumed a lead role in U.S. diplomacy toward Ukraine after a popular revolution in early 2014 that led to pro-Russia President Viktor Yanukovych fleeing the country. Shokin became top prosecutor in 2015, after Yanukovych went into exile. A frustrated Biden in Dec. 2015 threatened to withhold $1 billion unless Shokin was fired, in hopes that a new prosecutor would do more to enforce the law. According to Biden, it worked.


Double think is a completely real thing it turns out. Its false Joe Biden pressured Ukraine. But also Joe Biden *literally says he did it*.

Funny how we don't want to discuss specific crimes isnt it.
Vash
Posts: 6202
Location:

Of course Infi. The difference is, Trump pressured Ukraine to investigate his political rival.
infi
Posts: 24522
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Of course Infi. The difference is, Trump pressured Ukraine to investigate his political rival.


Just like how the Obama govt investigated its political rival? Cool story.
Vash
Posts: 6203
Location:

You mean the FBI?
PornoPete
Posts: 3853
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah. The now disgraced evidence tampering Obama FBI.
Vash
Posts: 6204
Location:

Heh. Comedy. Obama's FBI. That's enough dose of dumb exposure for today.
PornoPete
Posts: 3854
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Aww someone doesn't understand how the executive branch works.

Add it to the list.
Spook
Posts: 41400
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
good to see scomo living up to his reputation of being a complete c***. Even Tone is a better person than him.

what a fail of a human being.
fpot
Posts: 26864
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Heh. Comedy. Obama's FBI. That's enough dose of dumb exposure for today.
It's a deep state conspiracy.
PornoPete
Posts: 3855
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Chud
white supremacism
*Edit*
Functional democracy
Attacked America
Democracy will never recover
So much extremely criminality.
fpot
Posts: 26865
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

It's also a fake news conspiracy.
PornoPete
Posts: 3856
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Hey that's not a specified crime or a specific reference to assistance in the Mueller report.

I mean that's because neither exist. But squeal more little piggy
Vash
Posts: 6205
Location:

PP hasnt read it.
It was Obama, Clinton & Biden all along.
fpot
Posts: 26866
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

A multi-faceted conspiracy amongst a secret cabal of deep state operatives are working in conjunction with the mass media who themselves are coordinating efforts in a secret plot against your favourite president donald trump. This is because they actually fear him. trump is a tireless warrior for government integrity and transparency and these deep state operatives are afraid of exposure. Only working together with the fake news conspiracy can they possibly hope to overcome this shining beacon of anti-corruption force, president donald trump.
PornoPete
Posts: 3857
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Hey that's not a specified crime or a specific reference to assistance in the Mueller report.


vash saying someone didn't read something. You mean like your precious fact check?

Or das Kapital.

Just so you both clear you don't anger or intimidate me. You are a pair of illiterate morons who squak at my pleasure.

Fpot "can't read" my posts but nevertheless puts a lot of effort into responding to them.
Vash
Posts: 6206
Location:

Oh the insecurity.

Just so you both clear you don't anger or intimidate me. You are a pair of illiterate morons who squak at my pleasure.


Feeling the need to say this means you most definitely are angered.

Fpot "can't read" my posts but nevertheless puts a lot of effort into responding to them.


Hah holy s***. imagine saying this while doing that exact thing.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 813
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

fpot has lost so bad that he now creates strawmen prompt-free and is seemingly talking to himself in the mirror, or maybe its shouting at passers-by on the street like the street hobo he is. We'll never know

Vash has lost so bad that he keeps posting without realising he has owned himself. At least you can be sure you're right when Vash posts because his post frequency directly correlates with the amount of times he has been wrong in the last 48 hours.
fpot
Posts: 26867
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

I like how the calm person in complete control of the situation, not angry at all, is so frenzied in denial that he'll accuse people of being illiterate with a sentence that doesn't make sense and a misspelled word.
fpot
Posts: 26868
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

f***ing hell guys I lost because I didn't take some conspiracy numpties brave theory seriously and instead mocked it as the ridiculous bulls*** that it is. I am owned. Let's sit down guys and talk this one out. We'll be sure to find some middle ground between reality and the intertwined deep state and fake news conspiracy executing their coup of the white house.
Vash
Posts: 6207
Location:

We'll be sure to find some middle ground between reality and the intertwined deep state and fake news conspiracy executing their coup of the white house.


lol
PornoPete
Posts: 3858
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Hey that's not a specified crime or a specific reference to assistance in the Mueller report.
Hah holy s***. imagine saying this while doing that exact thing.


In which vash copies. But don't worry fpot found an autotext error.

Dance monkey.
PornoPete
Posts: 3859
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Noted Russian assest Trump places sanctions on massive Russian gas pipeline.
fpot
Posts: 26869
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

I am comforted by the fact that Australians would like me to be here simply so I can be here alongside them as they go through this terrible time
A thing Scott Morrison actually said in response to his holiday while Australia burns in totally normal fashion. Everything's fine we're just a dry continent which is also the reason for the floods we get.

Next time I don't show up to work while posting pics from the pub while I am chilling I'll tell the boss when I finally do arrive that I'm happy that my presence comforts them and that discussion of my absence is over.

I think you might be onto something when you say this guy is a c*** Spook.
Vash
Posts: 6208
Location:


Its a trait in alot of conservatives.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167218769867?journalCode=pspc

Not the kind of thing you want in a leader of a nation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12784934

Analyzing political conservatism as motivated social cognition integrates theories of personality (authoritarianism, dogmatism-intolerance of ambiguity), epistemic and existential needs (for closure, regulatory focus, terror management), and ideological rationalization (social dominance, system justification). A meta-analysis (88 samples, 12 countries, 22,818 cases) confirms that several psychological variables predict political conservatism: death anxiety (weighted mean r = .50); system instability (.47); dogmatism-intolerance of ambiguity (.34); openness to experience (-.32); uncertainty tolerance (-.27); needs for order, structure, and closure (.26); integrative complexity (-.20); fear of threat and loss (.18); and self-esteem (-.09). The core ideology of conservatism stresses resistance to change and justification of inequality and is motivated by needs that vary situationally and dispositionally to manage uncertainty and threat.


And other traits


PornoPete
Posts: 3860
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It is hugely entertaining to watch people who scream everyone that disagrees them is evil talk about how "conservatives" are intolerant.

It will also be entertaining to watch you three talk about whoever the next liberal pm in exactly the same tone as you are about Morrison now.
Nmag
Posts: 1246
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

There is so much hate on the left. It's a primitive emotion akin to primates. The left wing monkey people.

Fire management is a state responsibility. Morrison came back for the retarded voters who are affected by "feels" like baby kissing and hand shaking. He should have stayed in Hawaii.
PornoPete
Posts: 3861
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

If he was in the country they'd just be complaining about him being here.

For example, the guardian complained when Abbott volunteered to fight fires.here

The actual complaint is simply their guy lost. Nothing more.
fpot
Posts: 26870
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

What emotions would you consider not to be primitive?
Vash
Posts: 6209
Location:

The actual complaint is simply their guy lost. Nothing more.


Ah as expected, simple analysis by a simpleton when he doesnt like what academics say.
infi
Posts: 24523
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

ScoMo shouldn't have come home. Now his daughters will be scarred.
PornoPete
Posts: 3862
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Ah as expected, simple analysis by a simpleton when he doesnt like what academics say.


Dance little monkey, dance.
Twisted
Posts: 12414
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Fire management is a state responsibility.
It sure is.
Morrison came back for the retarded voters who are affected by "feels" like baby kissing and hand shaking.
He came back because the optics were bad and his holiday was over. There was really no point rushing home 18 hours early, a bit laughable really. But his advisors are trying to salvage something out of the situation.
He should have stayed in Hawaii.
He should never have gone, but yes there was no point coming back once he'd done the deed. He was f***ed the moment he buggered off, which I'm surprised they don't seem to have considered. Heavy is the head that wears the crown.
Nmag
Posts: 1247
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

What emotions would you consider not to be primitive?


As you asked me a question I will try to answer.. typically you ignore my questions. Typically you provide a short answer to some questions and then rant with paragraphs of abuse.

Hmm I'm not sure, but I'm told anger is a "primitive mind" emotion. Possibly the higher the emotional expression, the more primitive. For example, a civilised evolved mind might prevent a person from gluing themselves to a road. Where as a less primitive mind might "chimp out" with emotional outrage and thus cloud their logical judgement. Like a triggered entitled placard wielder who voted, lost and so they plan illegal disruptions to society. An angry person is looking for a place to unleash. This is likely why exercising a hatred for Scomo and Trump is so attractive to you. I don't hate the Greens leader, I just don't agree with their policies. You on the other hand express hatred and anger. It's pretty freaking weird... but you lack the objectivity to see it because alcohol abuse and circle jerk echo chambers are egging you on.

You likely get a high from it. You are likely seeking a high because you are likely depressed. That is why you drink. To deal with the anxiety and depressing reality that your life is not as enjoyable as you wished it to be. You are looking for someone else to blame for your failure. Like I've tried to explain over the years... The heart of the issue is with the reluctance to accept responsibility.. and to seek externals to blame. You are quite an amazing case. When I divulged some minor successes in my life you ongoingly claim they are lies. You are expressing denial. I have no reason to lie. I could brag about how fantastic my life is, but it serves no point. At the time, the context of me explaining success was about sacrifice. Purchasing house first. Having kids later. Not buying a brand new car till had paid off a house in full. Somehow you interpret this as lies.

Silly. Cut back or stop the drinking frothpot and embrace increased levels of happiness. You do not seem very happy.
Vash
Posts: 6210
Location:

Heh Nmag projecting again. and pretending he understands psychology at all.
Take a look at the verdict found on the cognition of conservatives, you'll find they're a lot more sensitive to primitive emotions than what they accuse the left of being.
PornoPete
Posts: 3863
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Heh Nmag projecting again. and pretending he understands psychology at all.


That's hysterical. Vash thinks he understands psychology, while being the physical embodiment of the Dunning Kruger effect.

A bunch on lefty researchers found conservatives are authoritarian managed to overlook the Soviet Union, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Zimbabwe, Cambodia, North Korea, North Veitnam. But Vash found the final word.
infi
Posts: 24525
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

But he sounds so knowledgeable!

I saw a headline that Democrats are going for a second impeachment now. Hahahaa
Nmag
Posts: 1248
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Heh Nmag projecting again. and pretending he understands psychology at all.
Take a look at the verdict found on the cognition of conservatives, you'll find they're a lot more sensitive to primitive emotions than what they accuse the left of being.


Neo nazi:

https://i.imgflip.com/3hnyqf.jpg

TDS

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/talking-about-men/201901/is-trump-derangement-syndrome-real-mental-condition

On the right side of things.... with the exception of some fairly hostile idiots on the end of the spectrum I doubt many people really give a s*** enough to get emotional about much. Now if we look at the left side of things.. wow... are you nuts Vash? Since Nov 2016 we've had a flood of liberal tears. Just take a look at fpot... He hopes people die... but he doesn't have TDS. Noooo. By frothpot's gauge he is mentally stable, clear headed and logical. Emotions don't cloud his judgement.
fpot
Posts: 26871
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

I saw a headline that Democrats are going for a second impeachment now. Hahahaa
Why not? There's enough material for like, five impeachments.

You know what real projection is Nmag? It's your reaction to me calling you a worthless lying little incel boy by trying to do the same thing to me. It's effectiveness on you has given your tiny mind the idea that it will also work on me so you attack me with your half-baked theories based off the two or three drunk posts I've made on here over a period of years.I commend you actually taking my advice on trying to identify my weakness and attacking that, but because you're as dumb as s*** your execution has been a little lacking.

Here I'll help you out a bit more. My weakness is actually having to read the words of cowardly snivelling little pieces of s*** who try to portray themselves as pragmatic, calm rational thinkers when in reality they're just hate filled pieces of dogs*** who turn to the worst elements of right-wing politics in some sort of perverted attempt to make the world as miserable as they are. People who just outright say, yep I am full Nazi and I hate other cultures are fine by me because they're really easy to ignore and label as complete wastes of oxygen. Duplicitous little c***s like yourself? I find them very frustrating with their endless lies and bulls*** and that's where the anger comes from. So I guess you were attacking my weaknesses this whole time without knowing it, so just keep doing what you're doing if getting to me is your goal.
PornoPete
Posts: 3865
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I like how the calm person in complete control of the situation, not angry at all, is so frenzied in denial that
Here I'll help you out a bit more. My weakness is actually having to read the words of cowardly snivelling little pieces of s*** who try to portray themselves as pragmatic, calm rational thinkers when in reality they're just hate filled pieces of dogs*** who turn to the worst elements of right-wing politics in some sort of perverted attempt to make the world as miserable as they are


Squeal little piggy squeal. I love how this is supposed to be deep cutting insult. Except it's the s*** he always says.
Nmag
Posts: 1249
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

two or three drunk posts


How can your drivel be insulting when it's worth a good laugh?... 26871 posts

some sort of perverted attempt to make the world as miserable as they are


Are you implying we need more marxist nations to make the world a better place?

Maybe you're not drunk.. maybe you're high.
fpot
Posts: 26872
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Are you implying we need more marxist nations to make the world a better place?
Nah I'm implying we need to Make Frightened Incels Irrelevant Again because holy f*** look what happens when you guys are mobilised.
infi
Posts: 24527
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I thought the irony of the incel insult would have neutralised it by now. Pretty much every ANTIFA/Greens activist is a text book incel.
fpot
Posts: 26873
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Nah that's just your tried and true method of declaring the opposite of reality is actually the truth. Which to be honest works quite well for you so I can see why you're still using it.

edit: Antifa only really exist in the Russian twitter bot disinformation sphere, but wouldn't a stereotypical Greens activist be more of the sexually promiscuous type?
PornoPete
Posts: 3866
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

The main reason fpot uses incel is because, like calling everyone racist yet somehow knowing all the racist dogwhistles like the back of his hand, if he's in first he thinks it makes people think it doesn't apply to him.

Antifa only really exist in the Russian twitter bot disinformation sphere


Look at that juicy slow cooked conspiracy theory. With the hurling of incel keep in mind another insult fpot likes to sling

it's a deep state conspiracy


What a tiny little squeally piggy he is.
infi
Posts: 24528
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


hey guys ANTIFA doesn't exist. Did you know? Cos it's Russian bots who say it all the time. It:s totally not real. Wtf... Are you high?

https://twitter.com/TeenVogue/status/1209769646016122882?s=19


Vash
Posts: 6211
Location:

Look at that juicy slow cooked conspiracy theory.


Obama's FBI. ehehe
infi
Posts: 24529
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Oh look Vash still has no concept of executive government and accountability.
Vash
Posts: 6212
Location:

Yeah no concept whatsoever. Obama's FBI even investigated their own secretary of state.
PornoPete
Posts: 3867
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Oh you mean that investigation where they bent over backwards not to find an obvious crime of a presidential candidate who was a member of Obama's party?

Imagine thinking that investigation proves Obama's FBI was unbiased.

Warm up the slow cooker. The Russians are here.

And best of all we learned that in vash/fpot world asking a foreign country to continue an investigation which was corruptly shutdown requires that trump be Impeached (but not to send the articles to the senate for trial) but having your own government (Obama's FBI) tamper with evidence to keep an investigation into a political rival open is just fine.
fpot
Posts: 26874
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Well real in a sense that it's worth mentioning. See also voter fraud. If you were to believe Russian bot twitter/alt-right twitter, voter fraud is some sort of major widespread problem when in reality it is completely insignificant. Same as antifa. It's just used as a distraction against the surge in right-wing terrorism and trump helping foreign powers interfere in US elections which has happened now at least twice.
PornoPete
Posts: 3868
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Same as antifa. It's just used as a distraction against the surge in right-wing terrorism and trump helping foreign powers interfere in US elections which has happened now at least twice.


Gee it's entertaining to watch someone call everyone dumb who *routinely* says s*** that has literally no basis in reality.

What election did Ukraine interfere in again little piggy?
infi
Posts: 24530
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Unlike the accepted reality that the DNC rigged its own primaries to ensure Hillary beat Bernie....

This is fpot's equivalent of a steamy romance novel -a place to lose one's worries about the dumpater fire of real life. Place where election interference actually occurred! So dreamy.
fpot
Posts: 26875
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

I really cannot wait until all this s*** is over and things go back to normal again, but will they ever? How does the USA ever come back from this? It just seems impossible to me. Kind of like when that tsunami ripped through Japan. I remember looking at the damage it caused and thinking how do you even begin to repair this. Same thing here. The damage in Japan was repaired but the difference is everyone wanted it to be repaired. What happens when a large group of conspiracy numpties like yourself actually want the damage to remain and even get worse? That's the unique problem that needs to be dealt with and I don't have a f***ing clue how.
PornoPete
Posts: 3869
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

That's the unique problem that needs to be dealt with and I don't have a f***ing clue how.


Have you tried calling everyone racist and sexist? While wearing a pussy hat?

If that didn't work...
infi
Posts: 24531
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

If that doesn't work, try going to their homes and protesting outside, calling them nazis and punching them in the face.
Vash
Posts: 6213
Location:

That's the unique problem that needs to be dealt with and I don't have a f*****g clue how.


Yeah, its an odd problem. Psychology gives us a peek into the processes on how people get manipulated by populists, its another thing to see it happening right in front of you and even to our fellow aussies.
PornoPete
Posts: 3870
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah, its an odd problem. Psychology gives us a peek into the processes on how people get manipulated by populists, its another thing to see it happening right in front of you and even to our fellow aussies.


For example when a raging anti-Semite offers vash free broadband it's "anti-zionism".
Nmag
Posts: 1250
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Yeah, its an odd problem. Psychology gives us a peek into the processes on how people get manipulated by populists, its another thing to see it happening right in front of you and even to our fellow aussies.


For example. Where Australians who subscribe to news feeds that sell hate, fear and anxiety are enraged by an orange man on the other side of the planet who is the leader of a nation that makes up only 4.4% of world population.

ORANGE NAZI MAN COMING TO GET ME MUMMY!!

I'm glad I'm seeing less TDS fuel on the ABC web news since Buttrose took over. It was getting a bit ameri-centric and ridiculous. Pathetic really. Just look at the anxiety, depression and anger it causes in naive minds who forget to add a pinch of salt to ABC and Guardian cuck news. Readers been scared of the orange boogie man coming to get them since the "wake up to reality Nov 2016 denial episode" faded.

Don't worry, he won't get you. You are safe.

Looking forward to seeing some awesome fireworks tonight while half the east coast burns down in the background from ember attack.

Happy NYE.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 814
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Yeah no concept whatsoever. Obama's FBI even investigated their own secretary of state.


What was the outcome of that investigation Vash? Was it James Comey admitting Clinton's actions were criminal but refused charges because apparently he knew her intention wasn't to deliberately cover up her own criminal activity? That's not something a partisan FBI would do at all.

Vash is taking self-owns to levels previously thought impossible.
Nmag
Posts: 1251
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Yeah, its an odd problem. Psychology gives us a peek into the processes on how people get manipulated by populists, its another thing to see it happening right in front of you and even to our fellow aussies.


For example when people who lack the understanding of local, state and federal functions rage on social media after their labor & green feeds complain about the federal leader in regards to bushfires.

I wish Scomo would do something about my rubbish collection. They missed a bin a few weeks ago.
Spook
Posts: 41405
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
good to see scomo c***ING it up to the maximum around australia atm.
infi
Posts: 24535
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

All those adf troops and ships and funding for more water bombing planes. What a c***.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39842
Location: Other International

All those adf troops and ships and funding for more water bombing planes. What a c***.
yeh just in time

congratulations, yours is the first post I've seen defending this government's "response" in 6 weeks
infi
Posts: 24536
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The Federal govt....? I cannot believe the PM is being s***bagged for sending emergency assistance. These are state management issues.
Spook
Posts: 41406
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
actually moar cringey than drumpf, which is quite an achievement.
PornoPete
Posts: 3871
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Can someone point out an important difference between scomo and krudds response to Black Saturday?

Barry Cassidy is saying that scomos leadership isn't tenable anymore.

Probably ironclad proof he's sweet for three more elections.
Spook
Posts: 41407
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
as much as scomo is a complete c*** of a human and completely f***ing up atm with his total lack of leadership and empathy for his country, you are right.

it will all be forgotten soon enough and he will probably still be prime minister after the next election.
fpot
Posts: 26881
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

The Federal govt....? I cannot believe the PM is being s***bagged for sending emergency assistance. These are state management issues.
Imagine what we'd be able to achieve if they started believing science was real.

edit: heh and also I'm not going to even bother asking you how you reconcile your previous trump ending the wars in the middle east with his latest hijinks because I've already been fully briefed by Russian troll farm twitter. Suffice to say if you were an actual functioning human being you'd be feeling pretty embarrassed right now.
PornoPete
Posts: 3872
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah but if it's *total lack of leadership and empathy* it probably wouldn't be forgotten.

Other than authorise aid and ADF involvment what is he actually supposed to do?

Hence how is what he has done importantly different to what krudd did in 2009? He's probably kissed less babies and done less church doorstep interviews.

Imagine what we'd be able to achieve if they started believing science was real.


Maybe it's something like this is it spook? Nothing says leadership like harping on about single use plastic bags and roof top solar during a "national emergency".
infi
Posts: 24537
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Trump's move was masterful. He cut off the snake at the head. Surgical, swift, measured response. Just like the Syrian Tomahawk strike. Let's see if Iran has the guts to arm another militia. Trump has reminded Iran there are 52 strategic Iranian targets already marked. They need to be careful.

(America has a long history of interference in the Middle East which is globalist folly but Trump is dealing with a century old legacy, and most importantly protecting humans US citizens there).

Morrison was late to the party. It should have been all hands on the pumps. He has now activated national resources and I am glad he is advertising these actions so taxpayers now directly affected know their taxes are at work.

Donate to Red Cross and stop whinging.
Nmag
Posts: 1252
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

We have lots of people in Australia who have little idea about what is a local, state or federal role.
fpot
Posts: 26882
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Trump's move was masterful.
lol
PornoPete
Posts: 3873
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Poor old fpot.

It must be hard not being able to tell the difference between killing someone who ordered an attack on a US embassy in Iraq and invading Iran.

I mean imagine how hard it is for him to tie his shoelaces if he can't tell the difference between those things.
Vash
Posts: 6215
Location:



4d chess eh Infi?
Scotty another 'leader' who can do no wrong it seems.
infi
Posts: 24539
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I think he has learned a few lessons .
PornoPete
Posts: 3874
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah he's probably learned noone with brains cares what an internet comedian says.

I love the serious face appeal to the queen because "she fired Whitlam".

I wonder if he knows....
infi
Posts: 24540
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

jordy is a paid political operative for left-wing parties. should we call him #jordyfrommarketing?

GUYZ THESE ARE SCOTT MORRISON'S FIREZ cringe, this hurts to watch the histrionics. very clickable i imagine
fpot
Posts: 26884
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

It's a friendlyjordies conspiracy.
PornoPete
Posts: 3875
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Man who is always critical of liberal party criticized the liberal party.

Fpot comes up with this.
It's a friendlyjordies conspiracy.


Could have used a chud.
Nmag
Posts: 1253
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Nearly 200 arsonists "charged".
Vash
Posts: 6216
Location:

Man who is incapable of being critical of the liberal party doesn't like when someone criticizes the liberal party.
PornoPete
Posts: 3876
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Man who is incapable of being critical of the liberal party doesn't like when someone criticizes the liberal party.


Imitation is a sincere form of flattery vash. Read Das Kapital yet little fella?
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2342
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Nearly 200 arsonists "charged".


Citation needed.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/twitter-bots-and-trolls-promote-conspiracy-theories-about-australian-bushfires/
PornoPete
Posts: 3877
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

If your refutation comes from an "academic" who's found "bots" on twitter you might want to do a bit more googling yourself buddy.
183 arrests so far.
infi
Posts: 24541
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Man who is always critical of liberal party criticized the liberal party.


More accurately: man who is paid to be critical of the liberal party is critical of the liberal party.
PornoPete
Posts: 3878
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

More accurately: man who is paid to be critical of the liberal party is critical of the liberal party.


Well I can't talk to that, but the way he talks about Sally McManus, she might be entitled to a restraining order yikes.

It's like he thinks she's in charge of the unions or something. But some how John Setka still runs the CFMEU. For a guy who bashes on about "manufacturing consent" he's distinctly uncurious about that. I mean maybe he is being paid not to be. I guess we'll never know.

Holy s*** speaking of the CFMEU, they just called for more logging and aggressive fuel management to control fires.

That's going to make albos life sticking on message difficult. The drunk old uncles who don't believe the science are your donor base - eep.
infi
Posts: 24542
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Reminiscent of when Howard exploited CFMEU forestry workers in Tas to win the 2004 election.

Are the ALP and Greens the parties of workers?
fpot
Posts: 26885
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

More accurately: man who is paid to be critical of the liberal party is critical of the liberal party.
Yes their leadership and response have been above reproach and any criticism levelled at them is surely explained by the friendlyjordies conspiracy and arsonist conspiracy.
infi
Posts: 24543
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Not beyond approach, but let's call his commentary what it is. He's not just a concerned citizen.
fpot
Posts: 26886
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

lol 'beyond approach'. You dumb f***.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2343
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


If your refutation comes from an "academic" who's found "bots" on twitter you might want to do a bit more googling yourself buddy.
183 arrests so far.


It's a paywall.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-08/fires-misinformation-being-spread-through-social-media/11846434

This says 24 arrests for arson. I've seen other reports about people using power tools incorrectly or throwing a cig out of the window which have started fires which the police are considering "legal action" for.

edit: here:
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw-fires-legal-action-taken-against-183-people-this-bushfire-season-20200106-p53p97.html
PornoPete
Posts: 3879
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

You can see the gist of the story from the opening paragraph redhat.

The ABC writing a story about the same guy who thinks he's found bots doesnt change that.

And frankly including the opinion of a la Trobe political communications "expert" makes the story less credible.

the 24 figure relates only on nsw.

Now I want you to put your misinformation hat on for a second.

What would you call it if you ran a story from a guy who runs python scripts on twitter for a living saying a figure which is real is a misinformation campaign and then selectively quote a number without giving it's proper context and then get the opinion of political communications expert on why Twitter bots a such a threat?

Even more deceptively, they exclude the little nugget that 29 fires in the Shoalhaven region are suspected to have been lit deliberately. That's the region that has been hit the hardest.

Better yet the ABC says the tweets say 200 arrests in NSW and they manage to show pictures saying 200 across Australia.

That article is a total train wreck.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 815
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

lol 'beyond approach'. You dumb f***.


Imagine how dumb you'd have to be to think you got someone on an autocorrect.
Nmag
Posts: 1254
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

arsonist conspiracy


Frothpot Gold
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39844
Location: Other International

This says 24 arrests for arson. I've seen other reports about people using power tools incorrectly or throwing a cig out of the window which have started fires which the police are considering "legal action" for.
I drove up to Coolum for Xmas and saw a small patch of burned out area on the side of the road - not huge, but in exactly the right area for a lit cigarette to land and create a small fire. There must be tons of these. Please switch to e-cigarettes.
Nmag
Posts: 1255
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

M1 Pacific Motorway NSW Yesterday at 10:32 · - Did you know that from the 17th January 2020, if you chuck a lit cigarette out the window you can be fined up to $11,000 and lose 10 demerit points. If someone loses their life you could be jailed for up to 25 years for manslaughter. To report someone who has thrown a lit cigarette out the window of a vehicle, contact the NSW Rural Fire Service hotline on 1800 679 737
fpot
Posts: 26887
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

So how close are we to the universal adoption of climate change is real but there's nothing we can do to stop it so why bother?
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39845
Location: Other International

So how close are we to the universal adoption of climate change is real but there's nothing we can do to stop it so why bother?
T+15 hours

https://trog.qgl.org/up/2001/too-late.jpg
infi
Posts: 24544
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

And after we reduce Australia's 1% of total global emissions what next?
PornoPete
Posts: 3880
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Here is fun game to play after you've finished spotting cigarettes on the side of the road.

Name a single climate change policy Australia could have adopted in the last 40 years that would have impacted climate today or more particularly the bushfires?

Better yet let's start with the basics. Tell me the likelihood that RCP8.5 will be realised?

Seeing as everyone who hates Miranda Divine has a deep (or even cursory) understanding on the science.

Better yet seeing as trog lurvs Chinese fast trains so much maybe he can step us through the logic of allowing China to self identify as a "Developing Country" in 2016 under Paris meaning it's reduction targets don't begin until 2030 (after the world ends according to AOC in 2018).
PornoPete
Posts: 3881
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Doh
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39846
Location: Other International

And after we reduce Australia's 1% of total global emissions what next?
I know this is a rhetorical question but I'll answer it:

- we make huge sums of money by our renewable energy companies selling, licensing, leasing, etc our awesome technology overseas
- we export our renewable power to nearby nations
- we use our vast surplus of energy, already creating negative prices in some areas, to create a new boom of industry and infrastructure as our companies can operate with low energy prices and without fear of negative PR and without having to navigate the seemingly totally inevitable carbon trading market
- Australia is held up as a beacon of light to other first world nations, who all realise at the same time that the this is the future and the faster they disassociate themselves from the fossil fuel industry, the better they will look. We pass a watershed moment where almost overnight, politicians around the world start treating the fossil fuel industry like they do the cigarette industry and statements like "Make sure you burn as much oil and gas as you can over summer" are never uttered again by a politician in the middle of the worst bushfire season Australia has ever seen.
- libertarians from around the world flock to Australia as global perception is that each household and corporation becomes a bastion of independence from the government-managed energy market; they leave again when they realise it was actually the government that figured out how to make it work like that and government is still are responsible for maintaining the last mile infrastructure that glues everything together
- every other country crash-starts their own renewable retrofitting process (paying Australia for the privilege because we have the best stuff, natch). Suddenly all those lame 2050 and beyond targets look stupid as everyone starts moving their renewable energy targets to 2030 because otherwise who gives a s***, right?
- the governments that sold off all our energy infrastructure, for one brief shining moment, look like forward-planning geniuses as the privatised energy plants are all rendered commercially useless and mothballed. After an extended cleanup period of the structure and surrounds, (another externality of the fossil fuel industry, socialised and paid for by the taxpayers) some are converted into blocks of units and regional art centres, revitalising the areas around them that were previously unliveable due to pollution and toxicity.
- as the air clears around the country, Australians suffer less physical ailments as a result of air pollution. Our healthcare costs reduce significantly.
- along with the clearer air, Australians also get smarter without all those particulates clogging up our neural pathways, and alongside with all the extra money we save not having to fund treatment for an entire class of respiratory illnesses in our major population centres, we pump all that extra energy and cash into research, enabling us to solve the outstanding problems with nuclear fusion, which we then make available to the rest of the world for a modest fee
- Australia develops the first faster-than-light transport, long before Elon Musk even figures out how to put a robotic lander on Mars, and we terraform Mars and just for the laughs make it a kangaroo sanctuary
PornoPete
Posts: 3882
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

- we export our renewable power to nearby nations


In which the article says they plan to build a solar generator with more than double the largest genarator of any kind and then build 4500 km of undersea cable. *Edit* oh yeah by 2027. Everyone will definitely move their 2050 targets to 2030 because we can sell electricity to Singapore for 4 hours a day in 2027.

"Nearby".

Yep that's climate solved and fixed forever there. Btw if you don't invest all your spare money in this you're personally responsible for bushfires.
infi
Posts: 24545
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

That is quite a story! A+
PornoPete
Posts: 3883
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

we use our vast surplus of energy, already creating negative prices in some areas, to create a new boom of industry and infrastructure as our companies can operate with low energy prices and without fear of negative PR and without having to navigate the seemingly totally inevitable carbon trading market


Oh but infi for a single 5 or 15 minute trading block at 11am in November (I wonder what the bushfire danger index was that day, just thinking out loud) solar provided 50% of available generation.

That definately means the Chinese and Indian middle class won't want to eat beef, drive cars made from metal or plastic and live in houses made from some combination of steel and concrete by 2030.
infi
Posts: 24546
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Doesn't Australia have like the second dearest electricity in the OECD? I need to research further at home.

Example

https://electricitywizard.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/retail-price-2017.png
PornoPete
Posts: 3884
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

That graph must have been produced by a climate denier.

It shows the state with the most renewables paying the most for electricity.

But I've been assured that renewables are amazing and cost nothing.

It also shows Germany paying more that France. But that's impossible because Germany uses more renewables than France.
Scooter
Posts: 6639
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

It also shows QLD as paying ~36c/kwh
In 2017 I was paying closer to ~21c, I'm currently paying 22.9c.

Unless some poor sap is paying ~50c to balance it out and get that average?
PornoPete
Posts: 3885
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Unless some poor sap is paying ~50c to balance it out and get that average?


Or just most are paying 40c.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39847
Location: Other International

It also shows QLD as paying ~36c/kwh
In 2017 I was paying closer to ~21c, I'm currently paying 22.9c.

Unless some poor sap is paying ~50c to balance it out and get that average?
you're probably paying 22.9c / kWh, but there''s also probably a supply charge on your bill. If you include that and divide your kWh you'll get a more representative cost.

My kWh price is 29.1c and I have a 141c/day supply charge, so my total cost for the last quarter worked out at like 65c/kWh. BUT I get a 20% discount on the usage component for paying by direct debit, so it works out at 59c/kWh.

edit: I don't know if that's how they calculate it, just a guess?

You have reminded me I have been meaning to switch suppliers for a while so that is my job for Sunday morning - I look forward to navigating this minefield of a "market". Spreadsheet time!
Scooter
Posts: 6640
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

My kWh price is 29.1c and I have a 141c/day supply charge


In QLD? If so, yes definitely shop around. My Daily supply charge is currently 99c.

Pulling usage stats from my inverter for my house (3 bed, stand alone house. 2 single occupants. 6.5kw Solar. Not energy conservation conscience) Energy Australia and AGL are pretty close to top of the list.
Simply Energy (who I was with), Energy Locals and Click Energy seem to be the worst (of the 11 plans I looked into.)
infi
Posts: 24547
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

So I guess Australia is a long way away from your negative energy price/Mars terraforming *cough* Total Recall *cough* utopia?

Can we just start with inventing a way to reliably deliver renewable baseload? South Australia thanks you in advance. I love my solar but its no help during peak tarriff 4-8pm.
PornoPete
Posts: 3886
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Oh but infi if we completely cover the northern territory in solar panels it'll be like real convincing when we beg China to reduce emissions this time.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2344
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Oh but infi if we completely cover the northern territory in solar panels it'll be like real convincing when we beg China to reduce emissions this time.

BUT CHYNA!

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/09/when-it-comes-to-emissions-the-too-small-to-matter-argument-is-absurd-reckless-and-morally-bankrupt?CMP=share_btn_tw

edit: Hilarious in the Oz they are backpedaling on climate change denial also.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/editorials/cool-heads-needed-to-craft-response-to-bushfire-crisis/news-story/40aa0a6d351e8e5578f700dd76717548

https://i.imgur.com/EPtvhJd.png
infi
Posts: 24548
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I think poor old Simon has a renewable supply of nitrus. He is falling over himself to increase electricity prices and taxes like a self-flaggelating monk.
PornoPete
Posts: 3887
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Oh the guardian says it's "morally bankrupt" to point out China has to come along.

Well if they can still open jam jars after the election of trump I guess I've really been put in my place.

Some choice quotes
The physics of the climate system doesn’t care about political boundaries. Does Germany not matter because it’s responsible for (slightly) less than 2%, or does it matter because it’s part of the EU, responsible for 9.4% of emissions? How about if we divide China into 56 countries of 25 million people, each with emissions half of Australia’s – would that let them off the hook?


Yep the physics of climate change don't respect political boundaries. Which is why if 1.4 billion people don't sign up 23 million won't make a difference.

China and India haven’t yet peaked their emissions – unsurprising given their stage of development – but both are decoupling emissions from development such that their average citizen will never have the carbon footprint the average Australian has now.


China is developing country. Which is also the overwhelming largest emitter, building man made islands in the South China sea as SAM sites and creating global telecommunications companies to spy on everyone.

It's also funny how he fails to mention Germany is restarting brown coal generation and China is going to add Europe's entire coal fired power plant capacity in the next ten years.

See this is what you do when you don't have an argument. You feign moral outrage.

Name a single climate change policy Australia could have adopted in the last 40 years that would have impacted climate today or more particularly the bushfires?


This question continues to remain unanswered.
Vash
Posts: 6218
Location:

My favorite was the sky news segment with Alan Jones constantly blaming the Greens for the bushfires during a crisis. Close second has to be all those front pages during elections by The Australian.
Butbut The Guardian!

creating global telecommunications companies to spy on everyone.


Guess who already does this.
infi
Posts: 24549
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Guess which one is a developing nation... apparently.
PornoPete
Posts: 3888
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

My favorite was the sky news segment with Alan Jones constantly blaming the Greens for the bushfires during a crisis. Close second has to be all those front pages during elections by The Australian.
Butbut The Guardian!
Name a single climate change policy Australia could have adopted in the last 40 years that would have impacted climate today or more particularly the bushfires?


See until this question has a sound answer (it doesn't have a sound answer, the *best* anyone has is if we adopt renewables it's more convincing for China not to use coal) linking the bushfires to climate policy is opportunistic politics of fear.

My favourite part of this so far has been the greens begging for handouts by email. I got a very friendly email from Di Natalie last week begging for political donations.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2345
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

This question continues to remain unanswered.


No it doesn't, see the graph under the bit that says
Share of global greenhouse emissions Put together, countries with emissions less than 2% of global emissions are larger than any other country.



Instead of going to international forums and actively fighting against reducing emissions we could be lobbying for it.

We could have been 10 years ahead of where we are now on exporting clean energy if there wasn't people standing in the way of a clean energy future.

Its f***ing sad that people want to keep burning fossil fuels as if it's some sort of capitulation to a left agenda.

I don't like breathing fumes, do you?
Vash
Posts: 6219
Location:

Clean energy & climate change are associated with the left, so it must be a ruse.
Thats how far their thinking goes.

PP's question is another dishonest gotcha attempt, which is why it was ignored. Resolving the problem is an international effort, and by not doing anything much about it (going by our emissions per capita) we're signalling to other countries to do the same.
PornoPete
Posts: 3889
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

This
Instead of going to international forums and actively fighting against reducing emissions we could be lobbying for it.

Is this
it doesn't have a sound answer, the *best* anyone has is if we adopt renewables it's more convincing for China not to use coal

Is this
PP's question is another dishonest gotcha attempt, which is why it was ignored. Resolving the problem is an international effort, and by not doing anything much about it (going by our emissions per capita) we're signalling to other countries to do the same.


Well not quite. Vash is also admitting he doesn't have an answer. While we are all listing things the physics of climate science don't care about, the physics of climate science don't care about emissions per capita.

The idea China and India will forgo a prosperous middle class because we ask nicely while installing solar panels is *moronic*. And a little racist.

Do you remember Copenhagen and Rudd and the "rat f***ing". Because I don't have the memory of a gold fish I'm not swayed by an academic squealing moral imperatives we've got no control over.

The simple fact is to make a difference to climate today which would have impacted the bushfires you need to believe if we had have adopted low emissions the US, continental Europe, China and India would have behaved other than they have. I put it to you there is literally no sane reason to believe that. Notwithstanding Simon's (f***ing moronic) point about our Olympics gold medal tally.

It's exactly this kind of magical thinking that puts the LNP in power and takes the sting out of all the climate rhetoric you people love to soak in.
Vash
Posts: 6220
Location:

Yes PP. We should do nothing because those superpowers arent. It's interesting though that China is on track to doing more about their emissions output than the U.S, who are rolling back policy thanks to your man.
The left are willing to tackle the tough issues, and that means unpopular policy that might impact people's lavish lifestyles. All you guys have to do is say that other guy is stupid about that and we'll get you jobs.
Nmag
Posts: 1256
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

We are not seeing much of it right now as we are being very sensitive for those who lost property and lives... and people are arguing about arson and cycle climate change and how the federal guy reacts to state issues... but.. I guarantee we will eventually be seeing stuff like:

Cut your stupid flammable trees down around your property, clear your gutters, cut down that vegetation, get insurance, stop building s***ty timber fire box houses in remote locations surrounded by bush. We may even see insurance companies saying "Sorry you need to cut more s*** down". I've lived in firezone for well more than a decade I'm very familiar with what goes on around here. RFS and fire management is very important being so close to bush... there are naive stupid people who live in houses covered in gums with vegetation growing like a jungle around their houses. Gutters full of leaves.

You see it when you live in the middle of it. We have residents asking the council to clear the load on the ground behind their houses. The council is saying "You do it and we will remove the pile" and nutter Greens carrying on about "Don't disturb the load, it's habitat". That's what is going on in my suburb. Over winter we had some hazard reduction burns. We had people complaining. We had far more people saying we need it, and we have more people saying "It's not enough, burn more!".

They can say what they like on TV about doing enough hazard reduction, and the Greens not affecting risk.. well we have enough arguments around here about the 10:50 rule. The Greens opposing it, and people wanting to cut down trees and council saying no... and Greens wanting to plant more and more flammable trees (instead of european trees) all over the friggin neighborhood and enough Greens around here complaining about the affects of hazard reduction on habitat and animals to conclude what we are seeing on mainstream media as BS.

I foresee a shift from "Have a plan. Be bushfire prepared. Box ticked. We communicated to you" to "Here is a formal request to the land manager to sort your crap out. We are legally demanding you clean up your property'.

In 2006 we had a new building code come in for fire zones. It's off the charts... I doubt many places built to that code, that maintained their vegetation and have clean gutters went up in smoke. Our current home is built to the new code, it's like a fortress, particularly on the bush side. The roof has all these extra layers, metal screens, roller shutters, sealed eves. Head down the street and some 70's houses covered in eucalypts on top of north facing hills are cedar boxes covered in leaves just waiting to go boom. I hope they have insurance, cause we do and these "We were not insured stories" are hard to comprehend. I hate insurance but home and contents.. man that's just a a necessary evil if you have property. Even when I was young and rented.. contents insurance was pretty cheap.
PornoPete
Posts: 3890
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yes PP. We should do nothing because those superpowers arent.


Imagine typing this thinking you'd made a point. Is it super power or developing nation? I can't keep up. The argument vash is that because those superpowers/developing nations haven't done anything (or more precisely haven't done enough) there is no policy we could have adopted that would have made a difference to these bushfires. Hence yours and the greens squealing is the politics of fear. I know it's hard to keep two things in your head at once but do try.

It's interesting though that China is on track to doing more about their emissions output than the U.S, who are rolling back policy thanks to your man.


No they aren't. And linking trump to this merely emphasizes the empty rhetoric you idiots wallow in. Enjoy opposition. It's gonna be a while.
PornoPete
Posts: 3891
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Here's some dancing for you redhat

Climate scold wet dream
In Essen, in Germany’s Ruhr Valley, I saw a technology that allows power-hungry aluminium smelters to operate well (and increase profits) in renewable-dominated grids. The technology was first developed in Gladstone and partly Australian-owned before being sold offshore.


Climate reality
Nord stream 2 to go ahead. Despite US Sanctions.

Germany is making aluminium with out natural gas, but will bust sanctions to get more natural gas. You need to wake up and smell what you been shovelin boyo.
fpot
Posts: 26888
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

brb guys just growing some non-flammable european trees in a completely different climate to what they're suited to. I'm confident they're going to grow really well!

lol, what a giant pile of utter bulls***. You're such a f***ing moron.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39848
Location: Other International

So I guess Australia is a long way away from your negative energy price/Mars terraforming *cough* Total Recall *cough* utopia?
dammit I was sure that your first reply would be the scathing "sci fi" one but I guess it took a while to digest. I just lost a buck!. (btw one of the links I provided was to one of the several places in Australia where we already are seeing negative prices emerge. I think that is a short-term abberration though and it will quickly level out e.g., as the bitcoin miners move in.)


Can we just start with inventing a way to reliably deliver renewable baseload? South Australia thanks you in advance.
this old thing again? I guess if you only read Chris Kenny's archived old tweets for your information on energy (before he ragequit because he hates free speech), you wouldn't know what a crock of s*** this is.

I will make my usual mistake and assume you're trying to discuss this in good faith but SA had some minor reliability issues a few years ago - mostly due to the same s*** that causes the rest of Australia's reliability issues: trees knocking over powerlines in storms. These have been almost totally eradicated and SA's power grid is now being held up, globally, as an example of how a modern nation can migrate successfully (at least in the short term; I admit the jury is still out for the long term but things are looking great so far) to include more renewables in the mix.

SA is exporting power these days!
I love my solar but its no help during peak tarriff 4-8pm.
I'm very sorry that this relatively new movement with minimal support from the government and active hostile opposition from all quarters from an existing centuries old rich as f*** commercial sector is not able to immediately able to solve all your problems!

You are making the same mistake everyone makes on all sides of the issue, from the most ardent coal burning, f*** the planet, just put air conditioners outside types to the hippy dippy greens that think we should turn off the coal plants like yesterday: it takes time to make these changes. Imagine being in rural Queensland 50 years ago and you're still waiting for someone to put up a power line to your property - it takes time. Rome wasn't built in a day, and all the other great infrastructure achievements of the 20th century in socialised western society - the roads, the power grids, the telecom networks - took a while to be established.

This is like that, but bigger, harder, more important, and more revolutionary.
He is falling over himself to increase electricity prices and taxes like a self-flaggelating monk.
strawman, but ... electricity prices should be more expensive, if they're coming from fossil fuel resources. Unless you don't believe in market-based economy for energy. Wait, are you a socialist? You think these externalities should just be paid for by the tax payer?!
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39849
Location: Other International

In QLD? If so, yes definitely shop around. My Daily supply charge is currently 99c.

Pulling usage stats from my inverter for my house (3 bed, stand alone house. 2 single occupants. 6.5kw Solar. Not energy conservation conscience) Energy Australia and AGL are pretty close to top of the list.
The government fortunately makes a good comparison site Energy Made Easy - I found this late after trying a few others like Compare the Market which was missing a bunch of the options (I assume because they don't get referral fees from several of the companies).

I am leaning towards Qantas Red Energy now; they're a little more expensive than the cheapest option but still way better than what I'm paying now, plus I get a QFF points bonus for signing up AND I get 2 points per dollar through the year. I think I'll stick with them for a year and revisit.

edit: I accept that it is f***ing ludicrous beyond f***ing belief to be paying Qantas for electricity generation but that's the world we live in now
infi
Posts: 24550
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Vash

From January last year to June this year, countries outside China decreased their total coal power capacity by 8.1 gigawatts through steady retirements and an ongoing decline in the commissioning of new coal plants. But across the same period China increased its coal fleet by 42.9GW, and as a result the global coal fleet overall grew by 34.9GW.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/asias-powerhouse-fuels-global-surge-in-coal-use/news-story/036671a2882cacfec880d7b0fdd0d480

his old thing again? I guess if you only read Chris Kenny's archived old tweets for your information on energy (before he ragequit because he hates free speech), you wouldn't know what a crock of s*** this is.

I will make my usual mistake and assume you're trying to discuss this in good faith but SA had some minor reliability issues a few years ago - mostly due to the same s*** that causes the rest of Australia's reliability issues: trees knocking over powerlines in storms. These have been almost totally eradicated and SA's power grid is now being held up, globally, as an example of how a modern nation can migrate successfully


Our ACCC graph from above says they are the most expensive power is Australia, soo.....
PornoPete
Posts: 3892
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

this old thing again? I guess if you only read Chris Kenny's archived old tweets for your information on energy (before he ragequit because he hates free speech), you wouldn't know what a crock of s*** this is.


Yeah "this old thing" being powerplants that can't operate at night can't power a modern society. Nailed it. Oh and the only person who disagrees is Chris Kenny. Not answering the question and a conspiracy theory it's like a twofa!


I will make my usual mistake and assume you're trying to discuss this in good faith but SA had some minor reliability issues a few years ago - mostly due to the same s*** that causes the rest of Australia's reliability issues: trees knocking over powerlines in storms. These have been almost totally eradicated and SA's power grid is now being held up, globally, as an example of how a modern nation can migrate successfully (at least in the short term; I admit the jury is still out for the long term but things are looking great so far) to include more renewables in the mix.


I love how *literally the entire state losing electricity for days* is "minor reliability issues". And yes trog is totally arguing in good faith here. 9-11 was some people did some stuff eh?

SA exports solar between 11 and 2 but imports coal from 6pm until sunrise. Climate totes fixed like forever.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39851
Location: Other International

Our ACCC graph from above says they are the most expensive power is Australia, soo.....
oh sorry I thought you wanted reliable power!

SA was the most expensive, but now VIC is, looking at 2019 - by a whisker.

Considering the most recent two years since the ACCC graph, SA's renewable mix went from 39% to 65%. In VIC it's around 20%.

It's probably more useful to look at the trends over time rather than the absolute prices - doing the maths from the above AEMO data:

- SA's price from 2017->2018 went down by 10%, then up by 12%
- In the same period, VIC's price went up 39% and up 19%.
- Victoria is now in the same reliability gap state as SA - probably more susceptible to issues because their grid is less resilient, although I haven't heard about any problems there (though I've been overseas for 3 months and don't pay much attention to VIC at the best of times)
- we're only 2 weeks into 2020 but SA has the biggest decrease in prices so far over previous years of all the states - 36%, (QLD: 22%, NSW: 6%, Tas: 20%, VIC: 22%)

Anyway I don't think any of that stuff actually matters: it's increasingly obvious the old way of doing things is dead and buried. The future isn't renewables because it's going to save the planet; that's practically now just a fringe benefit. It's now just cheaper and better in pretty much all respects and Australia - a giant empty country with a ton of natural advantages - is uniquely poised to take advantage of it. If our government decides to help out and start being a leader instead of whatever they call whatever they're doing now, we can reap all the advantages of it instead of just some of them.
PornoPete
Posts: 3893
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Jesus it's like talking to someone in the upsidedown.

The reliability gap opened in Victoria directly *after* Hazelwood was closed and this is used as an argument that Victoria's reliance on coal is the reason for its lack of reliability.

Victoria is literally trying to copy SA and it's power is getting less reliable just like SA.
Taken together, despite 60% of Australia's generation capacity coming from coal he arrives at:

Anyway I don't think any of that stuff actually matters: it's increasingly obvious the old way of doing things is dead and buried.
infi
Posts: 24551
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Look at China for the future: more coal plants each year than Australia's entire coal power output... But it's critical Australia works to curb its emissions.....
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39852
Location: Other International

Look at China for the future: more coal plants each year than Australia's entire coal power output... But it's critical Australia works to curb its emissions.....
oh if CHINA are doing it, yeh

I just spent 3 months in Hong Kong and definitely came back thinking "yes we should do more things like China"

I don't know if outside of China it's even going to be possible to build a new coal plant soon; a whole bunch of coal-related activities are becoming uninsurable now as people back away for various reasons. If the cost of insurance goes up it's gonna change the equation significantly for coal prices (again).
Spook
Posts: 41410
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
i love the whole argument "china and india arent doing anything, so we shouldnt".

its just such a sensible approach.
infi
Posts: 24552
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

So you are happy for Australian energy prices and taxes to increase to subsidise renewables while China builds equivalent to Australia's present coal generating capacity every year?
Spook
Posts: 41411
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
yes, there will be some pain for consumers initially. worth it in the long run when we get renewables up and functioning. Nothing good is easy.
Nmag
Posts: 1257
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


brb guys just growing some non-flammable european trees in a completely different climate to what they're suited to. I'm confident they're going to grow really well!

lol, what a giant pile of utter bulls***. You're such a f***ing moron.


A true insight into frothpot's lack of education and narrow knowledge.

https://www.recreatingthecountry.com.au/blog/deciduous-trees-can-provide-crucial-bushfire-protection

http://www.convictcreations.com/animals/bushfire.html

https://www.jimsmowing.com.au/2016/02/fire-retardant-trees-and-plants/

https://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2014/10/23/4112923.htm

"If you live in an area which is prone to fire, then you need to make a decision about what to keep near your house and what to remove.... And definitely place deciduous trees around your house, rather than native trees," she says." (ABC Journalist)
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39853
Location: Other International

So you are happy for Australian energy prices and taxes to increase to subsidise renewables while China builds equivalent to Australia's present coal generating capacity every year?
Can you not imagine people wanting to pay more for a better product? The cheapest option is rarely the best. Especially when it's made in China :D

This is like when you play online video games and one player says something foul and abusive, and then some other player takes that as a cue to respond with something equally or more foul and abusive, and it creates this negative feedback loop of toxicity which makes the whole game extremely unpleasant.

You don't just base your behaviour on what everyone else is doing.
PornoPete
Posts: 3894
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Name a single climate change policy Australia could have adopted in the last 40 years that would have impacted climate today or more particularly the bushfires?


Just won't get answered will it.

Can you not imagine people wanting to pay more for a better product?


Now we are talking about luxury electricity. And about how coal power can't be insured. I'm sure this comes as suprise to the operators of Loy Yang.

It's only a better product if it addresses climate change but it can't if China keep adding coal capacity. So actually it's just the same product but more expensive. And a second ago it was cheaper and more reliable.

It is fascinating to watch IT type people lose their s*** when you stick words like "distributed" or "virtual" or a lower case i or e in front of a well understood technology.

You don't just base your behaviour on what everyone else is doing.


To address climate change this is actually exactly what has to happen.
infi
Posts: 24553
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I guess we just arrived at the crux of the discussion. Reducing carbon emissions in Australia may be ineffective on a global scale but it feels good. I want to feel good by making others pay more for their carbon.
PornoPete
Posts: 3895
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Virtue.

Virtue.

Where are you virtue.

I liked conspicuous consumption more when it was a Jaguar that didn't work.

Maybe we can just start producing virtual iCoal and please everyone.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39854
Location: Other International

I guess we just arrived at the crux of the discussion. Reducing carbon emissions in Australia may be ineffective on a global scale but it feels good. I want to feel good by making others pay more for their carbon.
You persist in saying the only reason to do it is "feeling good" and ignore the many actual, real, tangible benefits that you get immediately, and the many potentially beneficial outcomes that might result if we go down this path in a serious way.

You persist in thinking that people who are now homeless because of these unprecedented bushfires just want to "feel good" by making others pay more for their carbon.

You persist in treating "carbon" like everyone should be free to dump it into the air at everyone opportunity despite the fact that it is a known pollutant. You need to admit to yourself that pollution is a negative externality and burning coal results in this pollution, so it needs to be factored into the price. (You were such a big cheerleader of Trump's China tariffs - surely you should be a big fan of more tariffs based on their carbon output, if they don't sign up to the surely inevitable global carbon trading scheme?)

Australia is not just good for is digging things out of the ground and then putting them on ships and selling them to other people; the only thing that will make Australian jobs is not giving them a hardhat and a pick.

This is indeed an excellent, unique property of our country, and a great skill to have. But it's clear mining jobs are on the decline as our automation gets better and an outcome of more feckless Australian mining billionaires seems like a pretty steep price to pay for a small handful of jobs, bad air, and the ability to throw our hands up in the air and say "well everyone ELSE is doing it".

I would rather be able to look at these other richer, bigger countries and say "we're doing the right thing, even though it's costing us more, because that's what leadership is".

I say this as someone that doesn't really even mind selling coal to China for the next decade! I just think we should do it SMRT. In a way that enriches all Australians (no one should become rich for digging up coal, just like no one should become rich for selling weapons), and helps us future proof our country and the world (every dollar of coal we sell should have a dollar tax on it that goes to building out our renewable energy), and so on.

Man I already miss having a full time job again, it was great not having time to think about this stuff while breathing in the deadly polluted air of Hong Kong

[edit to remove something that was vaguely like an unintentional personal attack]
Spook
Posts: 41412
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
according to infi and crew we should all be trying to screw the planet as much as the next guy, just so he doesnt have to pay a little more for his resources.

no one cares about the future!
PornoPete
Posts: 3896
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

[edit to remove something that was vaguely like an unintentional personal attack]
You persist in thinking that people who are now homeless because of these unprecedented bushfires just want to "feel good" by making others pay more for their carbon.


Looks like you let one through to the keeper there bud.

according to infi and crew we should all be trying to screw the planet as much as the next guy, just so he doesnt have to pay a little more for his resources


You forgot "we borrow the planet from our children".

While you're doing things that really change the world you should consider super gluing yourself to a pedestrian crossing.
Spook
Posts: 41413
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
hey, i bought myself a sodastream for xmas, to try and reduce my wastes this year. i have a fierce fizzy addiction.

last edited by Spook at 16:01:43 14/Jan/20
infi
Posts: 24554
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

You persist in saying the only reason to do it is "feeling good" and ignore the many actual, real, tangible benefits that you get immediately, and the many potentially beneficial outcomes that might result if we go down this path in a serious way.

You persist in thinking that people who are now homeless because of these unprecedented bushfires just want to "feel good" by making others pay more for their carbon.

You persist in treating "carbon" like everyone should be free to dump it into the air at everyone opportunity despite the fact that it is a known pollutant. You need to admit to yourself that pollution is a negative externality and burning coal results in this pollution, so it needs to be factored into the price. (You were such a big cheerleader of Trump's China tariffs - surely you should be a big fan of more tariffs based on their carbon output, if they don't sign up to the surely inevitable global carbon trading scheme?)


none of this is true. I am perfectly fine with reducing carbon emissions as part of a globally coordinated effort - it is great to be efficient with resources and be kind to our planet. but when the world's largest emitter is increasing its emissions every year to grow its economy with polluting industry, i am not prepared to degrade our country's standard of living by increasing taxes and energy prices.

focusing on Australia's sins when they are just a minnow, is pointless hand-wringing.

also: what climate change policy could australia have enacted in the last 30 years to prevent the recent bushfires?

(Trump's tarrifs were a bilateral response to China cheating World Trade Organisatrion rules and currency manipulation. He knows that China's conduct needs to be addressed.)
Spook
Posts: 41414
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
also: what climate change policy could australia have enacted in the last 30 years to prevent the recent bushfires?


probably nothing.

but what about in 10 years time? or 15 or 20?

if we had started to do more sooner, maybe we'd be reducing climate impact now, maybe it would be in the future.
PornoPete
Posts: 3897
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Try the creamy soda with your machine spooky. It's pretty tasty.

The ginger beer one is an ok mixer for rum.
Spook
Posts: 41415
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
im a no flavour guy. just want the fizzy water.

working good so far, but that gas bottle dont go far!
infi
Posts: 24555
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Do you know what gas is in the Soda Stream cannisters?

Hint: China is the world's largest emitter of this gas.
PornoPete
Posts: 3898
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Spook is doing his part to sequester it. Be the change infi.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39855
Location: Other International

none of this is true
then your writing style is very confusing because it conveys the exact opposite
I am perfectly fine with reducing carbon emissions as part of a globally coordinated effort - it is great to be efficient with resources and be kind to our planet
Finally we're on the same page, one world government! You should lead with this next time, instead of saying "but China is doing it so we might as well"
focusing on Australia's sins when they are just a minnow, is pointless hand-wringing.
why bother doing anything in the face of adversity, is what you're saying? just because the odds are overwhelming that it will make a difference?

There are sooooo many amazing stories across all of human history where a single person managed to effect great change against a seemingly insurmountable opponent through their (sometimes literal) blood, sweat and tears so taking on a weeny little molecule like carbon dioxide doesn't seem like it's gonna be that big a deal if we just get our s*** together a bit.

Anyway my favourite story is that of Clair Patterson.

He's basically the guy that is responsible for us not still breathing in lead alongside all the other delicious car exhaust fumes that fill our skies. In the 60s he figured out there was suddenly just a s***load of lead in the air that wasn't in there before and that it was coming from leaded petrol. Despite a massive concerted campaign from the main manufacturer of same and the cronies they gave cash to, he was eventually able to convince the world that it was a bad thing and, well, that's why we buy unleaded. (Bill Bryson's excellent "A Short History of Nearly Everything" has a much better but still brief recap on the story.)
also: what climate change policy could australia have enacted in the last 30 years to prevent the recent bushfires?
well, I'm sure there are many things; it feels more relevant to focus on the fact that climate predictions seem to be coming true alongside the fact that we not taken them very seriously until now?

I'm not an expert so I don't know what we should have done, but it seems like a ton of s*** we could have done - treated pollution like a cost instead of something we get for free, designed our cities for people instead of cars, stopped chopping down trees, planted more trees... gone nuclear?! Built more dams, built more hydro. Massive taxes on mining and selling our coal locally and overseas.

It's a pretty interesting question though; I will spend some time looking to see if anyone else has answered it.
infi
Posts: 24556
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

then your writing style is very confusing because it conveys the exact opposite


nope, because as you read on, harming our own citizens' economic prosperity to literally go backwards on a target is futile and counter-productive. china is digging the hole faster than we can fill even a fraction 1% of it. if private enterprise wants to develop new energy efficiency technologies that's awesome - it has nothing to do with the global politics of coordinated carbon reductions.

Finally we're on the same page, one world government!


again, nope. I am not a Fabian marxist. if we cannot keep USSR, Sudan or Yugoslavia together what makes you think a world government would work, notwithstanding the UN's unparalleled ability to foster sex trafficking. Really.... you seriously yearn for a one world government? Have you not read Animal Farm?

There are sooooo many amazing stories across all of human history where a single person managed to effect great change against a seemingly insurmountable opponent


I suggest you work on China if you want a seemingly insurmountable opponent that can make a big difference. while you are there you can learn about the potential benefits of One World Government.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 816
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

People who want a One World Government haven't been to the rest of the world. You think the rest of the world will adopt foundations of democracy because you say so? The rest of the world is a s*** hole and the values of those s*** holes are also s***.

This is more than enough to dismiss any argument made by its supporters on the virtues of any global policy.

What about the gay conservative that killed himself because the left bullied him into suicide? Isn't that a real big piece of morbid irony.
Spook
Posts: 41416
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
What about the gay conservative that killed himself because the left bullied him into suicide?


steady on there. old mate was pretty f***ing messed up before he went and got himself on the news young liberalling s*** all over the place.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39856
Location: Other International

Have you not read Animal Farm?
have you not read sarcasm
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39857
Location: Other International

because as you read on, harming our own citizens' economic prosperity to literally go backwards on a target is futile and counter-productive
/this/ is the crux, not your (insulting) view that people just want to do it because they want to "feel good":

- you think starting a programme to reduce emissions, switch to renewables, etc, will harm our economic prosperity

- the rest of us think a) doing that will (eventually) improve our economic prosperity and b) NOT doing that is what is going to harm it

how about the timing on this one though
infi
Posts: 24557
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

have you not read sarcasm


it's hard to detect with Greens voters given their entire platform is riddled with irony.

- you think starting a programme to reduce emissions, switch to renewables, etc, will harm our economic prosperity


i have explained multiple times on here that this is achieved by placing a levy on energy costs, in order to subsidise renewables, which in turns increases the cost of every consumer item. so yes, it is inevitable that our economic prosperity will be harmed by such programmes.

- the rest of us think a) doing that will (eventually) improve our economic prosperity and b) NOT doing that is what is going to harm it


how will increasing the cost of living improve economic prosperity? how would not increasing the cost of living harm economic prosperity? those are very flippant statements...

Blackrock are free to virtue signal as they please. all their investors care about is returns (which were pretty poor this year for Blackrock). others will invest in the coal space and make the returns accordingly .

https://scontent.fbne6-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/82863155_1278207075722224_3177778922863460352_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&amp;_nc_oc=AQknTTEj5JdAMnYAz-cdmyNJ44rWlfws5LgQzZYIYSYS334SQdx4uxsOvRPmzeZGRD8&amp;_nc_ht=scontent.fbne6-1.fna&amp;oh=6f65921678b97d9b2183c4fa007b5eeb&amp;oe=5E8E8D47
PornoPete
Posts: 3899
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I love how fund managers are suddenly bastions of righteousness if they flat out state they are willing to take a financial hit for dumping coal, AND then get held up as an example of how super profitable renewables are.

/this/ is the crux, not your (insulting) view that people just want to do it because they want to "feel good":


Don't forget it's insulting to tell a person their pointless efforts are pointless so they might want to turn the tisk tisking down a little while people are being made homeless.

- the rest of us think a) doing that will (eventually) improve our economic prosperity and b) NOT doing that is what is going to harm it


By the rest of *us* you mean people to whom the change has no adverse impact (yet). And again with the flat inability to offer a true substitution. The example of removing lead being held up as example is simply perfect.

Why can't we get rid of this pesky chemical carbon (which is literally the basis of life of earth), look here is a chemical that isn't required at every stage of the human life cycle we got rid of that.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39858
Location: Other International

how will increasing the cost of living improve economic prosperity?
I didn't say it would increase the cost of living?

the goal of renewables and carbon reduction is not "increase the cost of living". It is to provide cheaper, cleaner energy.

i have explained multiple times on here that this is achieved by placing a levy on energy costs, in order to subsidise renewables
the levy would not be "in order to subsidise renewables" - the levy is to make sure the true cost of fossil fuels if reflected in the price. At the moment, that is not the case.

It is attempting to finally correctly price something that has, for centuries, had a free ride on the market, with (most of) the costs of it being hidden, buried like a dirty time bomb, and absorbed by citizens.

If you do not agree that this is the case, then fine, but until you acknowledge this point we're just talking across each other because it seems I'm talking about an actual rational market based on real information, and you're saying who cares as long as it's cheap.

which in turns increases the cost of every consumer item
... because the costs of production are more accurately carried down the supply chain!! I remain confident in the benefits of capitalism as competition kicks off.

If it helps I will save you a bunch of time and myself a ton of other micro-strawmen and agree the jury is still out on whether it is possible to entirely replace our power footprint with renewables.

However, it seems pretty obvious that we can replace a huge proportion of it. Australia hit 50% renewable generation for the first time ever a couple months ago. 50%!!

I find this fkn absolutely mind blowing. I look outside my place right now, and see a very small handful of solar panels across rooftops in my area, in the Australian state with the most solar panels, and I think, damn, if even a few more of these had solar panels, when would we hit 60%? 80%? 150%?!
PornoPete
Posts: 3900
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

If it helps I will save you a bunch of time and myself a ton of other micro-strawmen and agree the jury is still out on whether it is possible to entirely replace our power footprint with renewables.


The jury is not out. It's not possible.


However, it seems pretty obvious that we can replace a huge proportion of it. Australia hit 50% renewable generation for the first time ever a couple months ago. 50%!!


So a strawman argument is where you leave out important nuances which mischaracterise an argument making it easier to rebut.

For example in this case it is 50% of generation capacity *at midday for a single trading period*. The article is ambiguios about which market it took place on but aemo allow 5 minute contracts so it's possible that statistic applies to 5 minutes at midday.

This is actually a strong argument *against* solar, because the unreliability argument runs because solar gets peak generation when the sun is directly overhead and less at all other times until night when it produces zero it's no good for producing base load power at peak time between 6 - 8. There is some irony in celebrating confirmation of a key assumption of the argument for the negative *while producing a straw man when attacking infi for strawmanning*.
infi
Posts: 24558
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

And to accuse me of a straw man...

the levy would not be "in order to subsidise renewables" - the levy is to make sure the true cost of fossil fuels if reflected in the price.


The true cost of carbon is not being priced globally, so such levies on Australians simply handicap Australians against global competition. And pricing 1%.of carbon output in the face of carbon outputs from China growing at an annual rate larger than Australia's output.... It's like pissing into a strong breeze, and charging yourself to piss in the said breeze.

And the levy directly subsidises small scale and large scale renewables... That it's purpose. Every solar system gets certificates from the Federal scheme.

The straw man is that there is an efficacy to an Australian led carbon tax. if the goal is to reduce global emissions then the only answer is that Australia's levy on carbon is knowingly ineffective and a moral stand.... Costing consumers actual dollars.

Another straw man is linking people rendered homeless by bushfire to climate change inaction in Australia... Really lame.

And yeah that 50% of renewables line. What a laugh.... Willingly deceptive statement to influence opinion around renewables. Solar is great at what it does, but be realistic about its limitations.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39859
Location: Other International

And yeah that 50% of renewables line. What a laugh.... Willingly deceptive statement to influence opinion around renewables. Solar is great at what it does, but be realistic about its limitations.
How so? This was widely reported; I saw it everywhere when I was in HK; here is the ABC story from my browser history (IIRC it was not 50% solar - half of it was solar)

Can you explain what you find "willingly deceptive" here? (legit question, maybe I am missing something)
PornoPete
Posts: 3901
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Clean energy sources met most of the demand on Australia's biggest grid for 10 minutes on Wednesday


Yeah so I was exactly right. From his article the really really really f***ing important bit in bold for the intellectually impaired. 50% at midday in summer in Australia for 10 minutes. And we have the most favourable conditions on the planet apparently.

It's not possible to have a serious conversation with people who think this is an achievement.

IIRC it was not 50% solar - half of it was solar


Also think about if this makes the situation better or worse for like ten seconds
infi
Posts: 24559
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

A fleeting 10 Min peak result (per the article) does not represent a 50% solar supply for the nation. It is an abnormal (extraordinary) result due to perfect operating conditions.

Articles like this perpetuate a narrative that solar will represent 50% of Australia's energy supply thus evidence of the proposition that more coal power plants should be allowed to run down and/or be decommissioned.
fpot
Posts: 26890
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

infi how come after all these years and committing a strawman in literally every second post you still don't know what a strawman argument is?
PornoPete
Posts: 3902
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

infi how come after all these years and committing a strawman in literally every second post you still don't know what a strawman argument is?


You know when you say a friend's "keyboard odyssey" is "interesting".
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39860
Location: Other International

A fleeting 10 Min peak result (per the article) does not represent a 50% solar supply for the nation. It is an abnormal (extraordinary) result due to perfect operating conditions.

Articles like this perpetuate a narrative that solar will represent 50% of Australia's energy supply thus evidence of the proposition that more coal power plants should be allowed to run down and/or be decommissioned.
odd perspective

first of all, I'm glad we agree that we hit 50% renewables, that is a good starting point

secondly, we agree that it was only for a brief moment

I assume we agree that this is the first time that this has happened, which I choose to extrapolate to at the very least noting that it is an achievement for renewables, and an outcome that is based on the growing deployment of renewables

at least mathematically we surely agree that now in theory it is clear that we have the renewable capacity, when the conditions are right, to have half of our power coming from renewables

I'm gonna go off the rails here a bit now though into possible non-agreement territory: do we agree that, given that the amount of renewable generation is only increasing, that we are not only likely to see another 50% day soon, but that number will only increase?

further, do we then agree that we are likely to see more days in which we hit 50%, and for longer periods of time (and that those numbers will only increase)?

this seems, to me, the most likely extrapolation from the set of facts that we have in front of us here. in fact I can't see any alternative, or any way of stopping it, short of building more non-renewables to change the numbers
PornoPete
Posts: 3903
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

secondly, we agree that it was only for a brief moment
do we agree that, given that the amount of renewable generation is only increasing, that we are not only likely to see another 50% day soon, but that number will only increase?


Watch how an admitted brief moment becomes a *day* within the space two paragraphs.

It produced 50% of supply during a lower demand period (the middle of the day) for 10 minutes and all of a sudden it's a 50% day.

If another day like that happens we will apparently be celebrating the massive achievement of hitting 50% for 20 minutes at midday in 3 months, only 4300 minutes left to go!
fpot
Posts: 26891
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

So I won't go into detail about it because I'm sure the small readership of this thread are aware of them, but there's been some rather compelling new evidence regarding Lev Parnas and Robert Hyde released. The only real outcome is that now there will be an even larger and more incriminating pile of stuff the GOP will be forced to ignore in the upcoming Senate trial but it sure is funny to see dumb people facing consequences for doing dumb things. The supernova class meltdown from Robert Hyde on twitter is glorious.

The most interesting aspect is that russian troll farm twitter has yet to produce a cohesive pile of bulls*** for the chuds yet so we're pretty much still just seeing key players denying they've ever met Parvas/Hyde next to photographs of them together and the standard deep state conspiracy, fake news conspiracy and it was the democrats all along conspiracy holding pattern. Be interesting to see what they come up with and how quickly we'll see the chuds start posting it once they do.

Brief overview if you haven't heard anything about it

Stuff about Robert Hyde text messages

After texting about the ambassador, Hyde gave Parnas detailed updates that suggested he was watching her (Marie Yovanovitch). In one text, Hyde wrote: “She’s talked to three people. Her phone is off. Her computer is off.” He said she was under heavy security and “we have a person inside.”

Hyde at one point texted Parnas that ''they are willing to help if we/you would like a price,” and “guess you can do anything in Ukraine with money ... is what I was told.”


Cool and normal.
PornoPete
Posts: 3904
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

In which fpot convinces himself they were plotting to kill an ambassador.

My god what a dopey bastard he is.
infi
Posts: 24560
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

This is a paywalled article quoting Saul Griffith a climate-policy guy, so I have included snippets. It's an interesting read. I'm not critical of the guy, he has thought out the way to carbon neutral power grid, but the numbers are breathtaking.

Griffith puts the total cost at about $5 trillion to decarbonise Australia over two decades and likens it to the level of spending undertaken during World War II.

“If it was done at the rate of spending during World War II [proportional to GDP] it could get done in under 10 years. That's the war effort required to meet a 1.5-degree target.”

At the same time, Griffith and others, including Industry Super Australia, say the task of getting to net zero is harder without nuclear being in the mix, making for an uncomfortable debate for the Greens and left of the Labor Party.

Even still, the overall cost requires a deep breath and an affinity with large numbers, even before considering the idea of putting more leverage into Australia's already indebted household sector. With 8.6 million households, the cost over a decade would be $860 billion or $86 billion a year. That’s about 4.5 per cent of GDP.

“You have to remember that these measures would also save households $1000 to $2000 each year,” he says.
PornoPete
Posts: 3905
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

When he says decarbonise Australia's economy what agricultural and construction measures does he discuss or is it just electricity generation he's talking about?

Important to note it can be spent and still not impact climate change.
Nmag
Posts: 1258
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Reducing carbon emissions in Australia may be ineffective on a global scale but it feels good.


Pretty much sums it up for me. When s***hole nations are forced into doing more I'll be more interested.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39861
Location: Other International

It's an interesting read. I'm not critical of the guy, he has thought out the way to carbon neutral power grid, but the numbers are breathtaking.
I think pretty much everyone acknowledges the costs are going to be stunning. It's just that the costs of not doing it are even more stunning.

It's like the difference between instituting preventative medicine and just trying to deal with the sick people later. Sure, it costs a lot to immunise a nation effectively. But not doing it just means you end up with a stack of bills and people taking up hospital beds later.

(I always find the "it's going to take a WW2 level of spending and effort" analogy interesting, because the one nation that invested the most in WW2 ended up becoming the dominant superpower, significantly in part because of their wartime investment in industry. Who knows what will happen to the first nation to seriously embark on this war!?!)
PornoPete
Posts: 3906
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

great article on why the left keeps losing
Communist regimes pointed to saboteurs and foreign spies to account for the systemic failings of central planning. More recently, liberals have invoked Russian meddling and a global far-right network masterminded by Steve Bannon to explain their political defeats. Delusions of conspiracy are part of the mass psychology of progressivism, and will intensify in the coming months and years.


Take a quick scan of fpots posts to see the truth of it. The desperate fever dreams where the impeachment ends in something other than Trump's re-election.

The point about the UK Supreme Court is a damn good one. The judges don't appear to have realised that stating parliament is top dog means what parliament giveth parliament may taketh away (including the existence of the UK Supreme Court).

I always find the "it's going to take a WW2 level of spending and effort" analogy interesting, because the one nation that invested the most in WW2 ended up becoming the dominant superpower


Yep we are just a 1 trillion dollar spend on solar panels away from global domination. A totally serious point made totally seriously.
infi
Posts: 24561
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

2 hours of simply brilliant Steve Bannon

The more I listen to climate alarmists obsessed with Australia's emissions the more I realise they are not being serious about global climate change solution - because if they were the effort and pressure would be on China. But that's too difficult. A domestic protest agenda achieves two purposes: eco-moral self-righteousness, and anti-Coalition campaign point.

With China growing its emissions equivalent to Australia's entire coal emissions EVERY YEAR, emissions reduction in Australian will not even shift the global dial. We would need to eradicate Australia's emissions entirely.

Protestors have convinced themselves that Australia's emissions have a global impact and there is an imperative for Australia to go first. This is done by subsidising large-scale renewable producers and by paying high income families to install solar on their rooftops. School kids have been brainwashed that somehow Australian emissions reduction would stop effects of climate change being experienced in Australia. Linking Australia's emissions to the bushfires is a disgraceful lie.

I would be convinced about the bona fides of climate protestors if they were protesting China's refusal to cut emissions and rely on their phony status as a "developing country". Until then, it's just more Carbon Dioxide.
fpot
Posts: 26893
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Do you ever get bored of being forced to ignore so many things or does the dopamine rush of writing whatever dumb s*** you want regardless of the facts overcome the boredom?
Spook
Posts: 41418
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
yer, you aint getting it infi. no one is disagreeing that australia reducing its emissions on its own will do little in the global scheme of things. WE ALL GET THAT, NO ONE IS DISAGREEING.

The thing is though, we want to be good global citizens, all of us should be doing everything we can to do the right thing. Australia is extremely well placed with our climate and environment to lead the way, so if anyone can do it and reduce the costs of reducing emissions its us.

We need to show other countries what can be done and spark change that way.

Will it cost more? Probably, hopefully that would be short term.

Doing nothing to save money because no one else is trying is pointless if we all kill the planet.

PornoPete
Posts: 3907
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Do you ever get bored of being forced to ignore so many things or does the dopamine rush of writing whatever dumb s*** you want regardless of the facts overcome the boredom?


Says the guy who thinks the US president is a Russian plant.

yer, you aint getting it infi. no one is disagreeing that australia reducing its emissions on its own will do little in the global scheme of things. WE ALL GET THAT, NO ONE IS DISAGREEING.
Australia is extremely well placed with our climate and environment to lead the way, so if anyone can do it and reduce the costs of reducing emissions its us.

We need to show other countries what can be done and spark change that way.


I think it's you who is not getting it.

It's straight vanity to think China and India will look at what we do and copy it. But more importantly if we are uniquely placed to take advantage of wind and solar (and I have serious doubts about that) what reason is there to think even if we do transition China et al will be able to replicate it.

Hence the argument really boils down to this

The thing is though, we want to be good global citizens, all of us should be doing everything we can to do the right thing

I put it to you that is just your idea of a good global citizen. It's not a majority of Australians idea and almost certainly a vanishingly small minority of the rest of the world.

It's also a particularly bad way to try to argue your point because there is nothing in Australia stopping you personally from having a zero carbon footprint and I'll bet 100 dollars right now you don't.
Spook
Posts: 41419
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
the majority of australia dont think that climate change is real and we should be trying to be better?

you are correct, me and family arent zero, but we do what we can.

i ride my bike everywhere, i sodastream to feed my fierce fizzy water addiction, i only had 2 kids rather than the 10 i dreamed of.
PornoPete
Posts: 3908
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah but you can be and you aren't. As "good global citizens" we need to all be at zero.

And to make this crystal clear.
the majority of australia dont think that climate change is real and we should be trying to be better?

The majority of Australians being supportive of empty platitudes is not the same as the majority of Australians being ok with upending the economy with no regard to cost, consequences or its global impact if everyone else decides to just point and laugh.

I offer as proof of this distinction bill shorten losing the unloseable election trying to push through an uncosted emissions reduction target.

It was pushed as the "climate change" election and the country said we'll take a punt on this Hillsong weirdo thanks.

But I thank you for your incredible restraint in having only two children. The struggle is real.
infi
Posts: 24562
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

fpor posted a ramble. if there is any fact in there you wish to check please do.

spook, you are cool with increasing the cost of living for australians and making our economy less competitive, simply to set a good example, knowing full well that it will not alter the course of climate change one iota, while China goes on burning coal for cheap manufacturing of the natural resources we sell them so we can buy them back and make Chinese Communist Party more wealthy. that is masochism defined - enjoyment of payment intentionally inflicted.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39862
Location: Other International

I already addressed most of those points at least once in previous post

the best use of the Australian citizen's time if they want to effect global change is to put pressure on our government to make new policy

your use of the term "climate alarmists", combined with your unwillingness to concede (or even acknowledge) the point about negative externalities of fossil fuels, indicates to me that you flat out do not believe the science and thus are not arguing honestly or in good faith. There seems to be little point in having a discussion about shifting off fossil fuels with someone that simply does not believe there is any need to do so and does not believe we are facing an existential threat.

this is the reality that the rest of us are operating in.

you are actually in a discussion with several of those "climate alarmists" right now - I know fpot and Spook are actual real humans that I have met in person - but you insist on putting words in our mouths, questioning our motives, assuming we're lying and that it's all being done in favour of our egos. why don't you ask us actual questions instead of continuing to build up a completely fantasy-based caricature of what you imagine a "climate alarmist" to be?

(ftr, I wouldn't even watch a 2 hour video, or a 10 minute video for that matter, of someone who agreed with literally everything I said)
infi
Posts: 24563
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I am happy to concede the negative externality of fossil fuels for the sake of the argument. I am more concerned about the obsession with placing handicaps on the Australian economy which will achieve nothing. The policy response subsidisong the renewable industry and increasing the cost of power is my main concern.

And the self-righteous protest hysteria.
PornoPete
Posts: 3909
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I already addressed most of those points at least once in previous post


Except you simply didn't. Like at all.

This is what you do
this is the reality that the rest of us are operating in.


While squealing about existential threats.

At no point have any of you linked a specific policy to a specific outcome and said Australia can do this.

For example what climate policy could Australia have adopted unilaterally that would have altered this bush fire season.

When asked we instantly get a deflection about how it's the right thing to do. While insisting that we have to do something because bushfires. As we have in the above post


the best use of the Australian citizen's time if they want to effect global change is to put pressure on our government to make new policy


Quite simply if you think the best use of citizens time is to flap their lips about ineffectual policy you have lost your mind.

Best of all trog will run to the defence of fpot and impune infis motives at the same time. Glorious.
fpot
Posts: 26894
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

I am happy to concede the negative externality of fossil fuels for the sake of the argument.
Oh cool I guess we can start discussing the real world negative impacts...

Linking Australia's emissions to the bushfires is a disgraceful lie.
Oh.

You're a f***ing clown.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39863
Location: Other International

if there is any fact in there you wish to check please do.
OK - you wrote "paying high income families to install solar on their rooftops"; historically in Australia solar has tended to be deployed in areas where the average income was lower, not higher.

I can't recall details but also I think higher income households also typically opt for much larger installs, which has a disproportionately greater impact (i.e., their grid usage trends closer to zero and they more often become net producers)

also - by "pay high income families" do you mean they are literally giving them money to do this? or do you just mean that high income families get the same subsidies as everyone else but you're trying to write it in as divisive as way as possible so, once again, I have to waste time converting your insulting, inflammatory rhetoric into some sort of ground truth to form the basis of a conversation.

this is why knocking down your repeated strawmen is so painful - your repeated claims that the /only/ possible outcomes are "increasing the cost of living for australians and making our economy less competitive" and that it is /only/ being done to "simply to set a good example", when people have gone (repeatedly, several times, over the space of years) to explain otherwise just waste everyone's time, especially yours

edit: luckily my time is worthless at the moment! hoping that changes soon and I can get back to work
infi
Posts: 24564
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

also - by "pay high income families" do you mean they are literally giving them money to do this? or do you just mean that high income families get the same subsidies as everyone else but you're trying to write it in as divisive as way as possible so, once again, I have to waste time converting your insulting, inflammatory rhetoric into some sort of ground truth to form the basis of a conversation.


People who don't qualify for taxpayer handouts to lower their own energy bill
- housing commission
- renters
- low income who cannot afford the balance of the install.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39864
Location: Other International

("taxpayer handouts")

sorry, I don't understand what you're saying - that list of groups are not "high income families"?
infi
Posts: 24565
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

("taxpayer handouts")

sorry, I don't understand what you're saying - that list of groups are not "high income families"?

Correct, and they cannot get the taxpayer handouts. Only high income people access the solar handouts.
PornoPete
Posts: 3910
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Fpot quick to confirm the point.

Only high income people access the solar handouts.


Higher income people tend to be better at framing their consumption choices as "in the national interest".
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39865
Location: Other International

Correct, and they cannot get the taxpayer handouts. Only high income people access the solar handouts.
but there are a series of other "handouts" for people in low income households; they just have to meet different criteria for these "taxpayer handouts" (NSW is the first one I can be bothered finding, QLD was at least looking into it, VIC has one, TAS has/had one, etc).

What is the programme where we are "paying high income families to install solar on their rooftops", out of interest? Sounds like those f***ing Greens at it again
infi
Posts: 24566
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

STCs - rebates paid on installation of a solar system.
PornoPete
Posts: 3911
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

The NSW plan aims to *at most* install 9mwatts of peak generation.
The climate fixed forever people. That plan absolutely will not turn them into net generators.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39867
Location: Other International

goddamn that looks like a confusing mess of bureaucratic nightmarish hell, simply to avoid pricing carbon emissions

can you save me some time digging through it and tell me the bit where the rebates are based on income? I can't see anything like that from a quick look/search. the rebates seem to be "certificates" and just look like they're based on postcode & the size of your installation?
PornoPete
Posts: 3912
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

can you save me some time digging through it and tell me the bit where the rebates are based on income?
certificates" and just look like they're based on postcode & the size of your installation?


He's so close to getting the answer.
Spook
Posts: 41420
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I am more concerned about the obsession with placing handicaps on the Australian economy which will achieve nothing. The policy response subsidisong the renewable industry and increasing the cost of power is my main concern.

And the self-righteous protest hysteria.


i think as climate change becomes realer, and it finally hits you what this means for your daughters lifetime, you will regret this viewpoint.
PornoPete
Posts: 3913
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

And the self-righteous protest hysteria.
i think as climate change becomes realer, and it finally hits you what this means for your daughters lifetime, you will regret this viewpoint.


At least you spared your 8 hypothetical children this book of Eli nightmare.
Spook
Posts: 41421
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
all dreams of my own cricket team, dashed.
PornoPete
Posts: 3914
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Unless the other 2 become climate mutants and can play for 5 people each.

It could happen
PornoPete
Posts: 3915
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Energiewende in German a failure.

But McKinsey finds that Germany is expected to fail the majority of its own 2020 energy transition targets. The transition process has made itself more reliant on gas from Putin’s Russia. In the medium term, its withdrawal from nuclear and coal power also threaten to compromise energy provision “if these sources aren’t replaced in time”.


The push to move to renewables has basically resulted in modernization of Russia's military.

The renewables crowd just don't seem to be able to wrap their noggins around this concept that you can't lower of first world nation with roof top solar. Or renewables full stop.

It would be interesting to hear trog try to explain why AGL are pushing renewables so hard and s***ting on coal.

Maybe they are all praying to Greta. Perhaps a better explanation is Australia largest gas company is betting our experience far from being "unique" will be the same as Germany's. Same with origin. This natural gas portfolios ain't goin' nowhere but we have end our reliance on fossil fuels.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2346
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

They set very high standards so it's a "failure".

Everyone is pushing renewables because it's cheaper than coal.
PornoPete
Posts: 3916
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

They set very high standards so it's a "failure".

Sorry you view increasing reliance on fossil fuels imports from a major from geo political rival as very high standards?

Or is it achieving greater than 60% generation from fossil fuels (so about the same as Australia) and reopening brown coal power plants all for a spend of about 1 trillion over 20 years on renewables?

It's probably best the article didn't deal with the carbon intensity outcome (hint it hasn't changed).

Everyone is pushing renewables because it's cheaper than coal.


No they aren't.

When you're ready to have a serious discussion let us all know.
infi
Posts: 24567
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

can you save me some time digging through it and tell me the bit where the rebates are based on income?


The rebate is not directly based on income. Because a solar system costs many thousands of $ people in Housing Commission, rentals and with low incomes cannot afford or arrange that investment. So higher income people who own their own home enjoy that rebate drawn from the tax paid by lower income people.

Imagine if you told lefties that is how their environmental policy works in practice? Redistribution of tax to the rich.

Everyone is pushing renewables because it's cheaper than coal.


then why are they subsidised as far as the eye can see?
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39868
Location: Other International

Because a solar system costs many thousands of $ people in Housing Commission, rentals and with low incomes cannot afford or arrange that investment.
Well I think you should leave rentals out of that list; I live in a rental and I also cannot arrange that investment, regardless of how much "tax paid by lower income people" is available to me, despite being a higher income citizen, simply because of the nature of my building (I imagine this is the barrier to most renters and apartment dwellers).
So higher income people who own their own home enjoy that rebate drawn from the tax paid by lower income people.
well arguably the higher income people pay more income tax so they're paying for a higher proportion of the rebate..? isn't this just like saying rich people also get to drive on roads paid for by lower income people?!
Imagine if you told lefties that is how their environmental policy works in practice? Redistribution of tax to the rich.
yeh weird what a weird f***ing system how weird is it that our system is designed to funnel money to the rich with the *checks notes* lefties not in power and not really possessing any sort of political power except the ability to drive people out of their f***ing minds, apparently

edit: I don't think that is really what is happening here but just thought that was funny
PornoPete
Posts: 3917
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

yeh weird what a weird f***ing system how weird is it that our system is designed to funnel money to the rich with the *checks notes* lefties not in power and not really possessing any sort of political power except the ability to drive people out of their f***ing minds, apparently


It would be the ghost of a point if it wasn't wholly supported by lefties. It's obviously straight middle class welfare for people who've decided buying a luxury telsa car for themselves is in the national interest.

Not really possible to have a serious conversation about renewables.

They're cheaper and more reliable that also require subsidies to be affordable and gas back up for when they aren't reliable, but they are also the unquestionable right thing to do even if they aren't cheaper and more reliable and as Germany seems to prove actually have a margin impact on emissions.

What's hysterical is I'm yet to see anyone say they are opposed in principle to a transition away from coal generation. Just saying renewables aren't an effective substitute by themselves gets you this.

your use of the term "climate alarmists", combined with your unwillingness to concede (or even acknowledge) the point about negative externalities of fossil fuels, indicates to me that you flat out do not believe the science and thus are not arguing honestly or in good faith. There seems to be little point in having a discussion about shifting off fossil fuels with someone that simply does not believe there is any need to do so and does not believe we are facing an existential threat.


But apparently
lefties not in power and not really possessing any sort of political power except the ability to drive people out of their f***ing minds


The reality is that if you think climate change is an *existential threat* you straight up are an alarmist.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2347
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

No one will build a new coal power plant in australia because it is not economically feasible to do so.* It just doesn't stack up against new solar.


The only possible way a new coal plant will be deployed is if the government backs it for their weird culture wars.
infi
Posts: 24568
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Now do that without renewable subsidies.
fpot
Posts: 26898
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

So now that you've capitulated on that one, are you still on the trump was just investigating corruption and the impeachment hoax is a deep state conspiracy coup assisted by the fake news conspiracy?
infi
Posts: 24569
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

lol capitulated. you are in a daze.

there is no need to discuss the russia collusion hoax any more. it never even got to impeachment, what was even the point? impeachment on the Ukraine nothing-burger is purely political and will run along party lines. Trump will be acquitted, get re-elected and the self-owange will be complete.
fpot
Posts: 26899
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Just watch those straight from the troll farm catch phrases pour out of your mouth. Such a well trained little doggy.
PornoPete
Posts: 3918
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

No one will build a new coal power plant in australia because it is not economically feasible to do so.* It just doesn't stack up against new solar.


Oh what utter twaddle. If that was even remotely true there would be no need for a carbon price. I wouldn't be even a little surprised loy yang or Tarong expanded in the next 10-30 years.

The only possible way a new coal plant will be deployed is if the government backs it for their weird culture wars.


This the essence of why you lost may 18 and why you will continue to. The only possible avenue for disagreement is culture wars. Deep down though high level Labor peeps get it. Look at how quickly Qld Labor backed down on Adani after the federal election. It was within hours.

Just watch those straight from the troll farm catch phrases pour out of your mouth. Such a well trained little doggy.


Are the Russians in the room with you right now fpot?

Hows that Kurdish genocide coming along?

Imagine how soaked in conspiracy juice you'd have to be to listen to Adam Schiff and agree.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2348
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Now do that without renewable subsidies.
https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2019/05/02/Global-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies-Remain-Large-An-Update-Based-on-Country-Level-Estimates-46509
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39869
Location: Other International

then why are they subsidised as far as the eye can see?
haven't we already agreed coal is subsidised (massively) because the pricing of the externalities is not taken into consideration? also, coal is also subsided with actual subsidies

not to mention all the various other lengths our government goes to in order to support it as an industry, including but not limited to literally putting pieces of it in their pocket and taking it out in parliament, grinning with glee, like a child with a new toy

trying to pretend that the only reason renewables have traction is subsidies is a losing battle, imo. fossil fuels have over a century of dominance and the resulting entrenchment in our commercial and political systems that brings along with it any number of perks, the entire way up and down the supply chain - actual taxpayer cash up front, financial structures that allow them to minimise tax, quasi-state-owned infrastructure, unrealistic markets, etc, etc.

to answer your question though, the reason they are subsidised is really the same reason the government should subsidise anything - trying to effect an important societal or market change when the market isn't doing itself, because it can't or won't

if you believe climate change is a threat, then you don't need to ask that question ever again

a more interesting topic to me: I am torn on whether or not we should just strip the subsidies from everything and let the market sort it out. I think our energy market is too f***ed, being such a weird privatised/public company/state run/federally managed/subsidies Frankenmonster (not unlike our telco market). half-assed privatisation seems to be the worst of both worlds, and I think there is a realistic concern with full-ass privatisation that it could f*** up the grid as people dive into solar too much too soon, before we have the smart grid stuff and enough local storage in place.
PornoPete
Posts: 3919
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So the thing is you guys showing fossil fuels get subsidiaries is not a response to the question are renewables viable without them?

This pretty much flat admits Infis criticism
to answer your question though, the reason they are subsidised is really the same reason the government should subsidise anything - trying to effect an important societal or market change when the market isn't doing itself, because it can't or won't

if you believe climate change is a threat, then you don't need to ask that question ever again


Oh and look we are straight back to its the right thing to do. My vitute signalling consumption choices require subsidies don't ever ask again. What a serious and balanced argument.

To demonstrate the point, medicine is subsidized out the ass. But it would be a viable industry without them. This is the argument being put forward. So you managed to deal in a combination red herring and strawman. Well done both.

The part I love the most about though is that it obviously hasn't occurred to you idiots that renewables get subsidized through fossil fuel subsidies, because they rely on natural gas firming capacity.

As for the f***ing ridiculous argument carbon emissions are a subsidized externality, it would be easier to take seriously if I ever saw you idiots talk about renewables' untaxed externalities.

For example, rare earth metals are both dangerous when they leach into soil and tend to be found in countries where modern slavery is a massive issue. I've also never once heard you talk of the environmental consequences of land clearing for you idiotic Singapore solar export plan or what happens at the end of a solar panels 20 year life span. At the moment the way you deal with is to send them to a third world country to poison children.

But some how you manage to gloss over all of that when you drop "externalities" as an argument.
infi
Posts: 24570
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

coal is also subsided with actual subsidies


nope. they enjoy diesel fuel rebate due to their offroad business nature just like agriculture and (dare I say the) vehicles used in large scale solar farms.

it's great documenting the zeal of renewables crowd.
PornoPete
Posts: 3920
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah it's entertaining

if you believe climate change is a threat, then you don't need to ask that question ever again


Don't forget if you believe in climate change we have to subsidize renewables because subsidizing renewables in Australia will reduce emissions in India and China because reasons.

Don't ever ask again. Only people who like drowning puppies question subsidized virtue signalling.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39870
Location: Other International

"no, they're not subsidies, except for this one subsidy", he said, wallpapering over cognitive dissonance with a steamroller

they probably have never had any other subsidies ever either in the last hundred years either

the /only/ reason a billion dollars of "tax paid by lower income people" isn't flooding to Adani seems to be a fluke of having Labor is in power in Qld (or possibly they just used it as a smokescreen excuse when they decided it's not financially viable anyway)

anyway. the subsidy they get is the fact that the government discounts the price massively by not requiring that companies dispose of waste products correctly. you can try to weasel-words your way around this all you want but this industry has be propped up the fact that everyone thought you could pump s*** into their air forever

edit: you are almost certainly never going to talk to a green hippy person like me that actually thinks we should both still be burning coal and digging it out of the ground and selling it for at least a while longer yet; why do you not even /try/ to have a conversation? like why not read the other stuff I wrote and reply to it? I don't get what you're doing here
infi
Posts: 24571
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

you call a diesel fuel rebate generally available to all offroad industries, including solar farms, a coal subsidy ? and then call me asinine....

I don't agree with any subsidy for Adani.

why do you not even /try/ to have a conversation? like why not read the other stuff I wrote and reply to it? I don't get what you're doing here


i enjoy highlighting the ongoing hypocrisy of the tokenistic green movement.
people who think they are reducing their carbon emissions by driving an electric car.
people who think more solar panels can possibly substitute for reliable coal baseload generation.
people who think australia increasing its taxes and electricity prices will reduce the effect of climate change on the earth.

it is the classic leftist handwringing - something needs to be done NOW - otherwise BUSHFIRES, KOALAS, HOMELESS PEOPLE. Never mind whether it's effective.

If we hypothetically manage to cut our emissions by 20% that means Australia moves from 1% of global carbon emissions to 0.8% and China grows theirs by more than that every year. Honestly, the climate activist movement in Australia is a joke. Where is the calling out of China's emissions expansion?

Real climate change action is a global agreement to price carbon and reduce emissions lead by USA, China, the EU and Japan. Australia just falls in line. Without that Extinction Rebellion and the Greens are just pissing in the breeze.


edit: to further explore the off-road diesel fuel rebate since you fallaciously equate it to coal subsidy.

Should the diesel fuel rebate be scrapped altogether?
Should miners not mining coal get it? Iron - it requires coal to smelt? Gas - carbon emissions? Gold smelted with coal?
Should agricultural producers get it? Meat producers' livestock emit carbon emissions.
Should solar farm operators get it? Are they the chosen favourite?
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2349
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

You do realise cutting emissions improves public health right? That's more people in your aged care facilities for longer.
PornoPete
Posts: 3921
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Oh but infi

Pointing this out
Real climate change action is a global agreement to price carbon and reduce emissions lead by USA, China, the EU and Japan. Australia just falls in line. Without that Extinction Rebellion and the Greens are just pissing in the breeze.


Is asinine. And by asinine what he actually means is he doesn't have an answer and he knows it.

Don't forget trog is the supposedly the reasonable mature one.

But when you point out he does not have an answer to a) renewables are not capable of producing cheap reliable baseload power and b) climate action that doesn't include China and India in the same boat as the US is futile you get the same name calling as any standard lefty.

We are about a 100 posts into this conversation which I might remind everyone was about what climate policy would have impacted the bushfires and we are both not closer to a sensible answer to that question and the "climate denier" naming calling phase.

Now we know trog has recently gotten back from London and I'm sure attending vintage breakfast cereal bars in Shoreditch made him feel a bit less racist than the average Australian, but dude your travels don't make you better or smarter they just make you a member of the same boring I went to London for a year crowd.

The steel question is hysterical. Steel is iron plus carbon. Good luck removing carbon from that process.

anyway. the subsidy they get is the fact that the government discounts the price massively by not requiring that companies dispose of waste products correctly.


Old solar panels and wind turbines don't just disappear into the ground if you say Greta thunberg three times.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 817
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

The solution is clearly to use human corpses as a food source to reduce agricultural greenhouse emissions and also why not use them as a biofuel as well? Overpopulation and carbon footprint and too many white people anyway right.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39871
Location: Other International

i enjoy highlighting the ongoing hypocrisy of the tokenistic green movement.
yes, point scoring is a lot of fun, I agree there is a lot of cherry picking that can be done amongst "greens" who think we should turn off the coal stations now and doing so will not negatively impact their lives. I am sure we agree that they would be clamouring for the lights to be turned back on if coal plants vanished tomorrow.

but if all everyone is doing is scoring easy points on each other and ignoring the actual problems with their own positions then we're not going to get anything useful done because noone will ever acknowledge the faults in their own positions, be they factual inaccuracies, logical fallacies, or simply inconsitency

there's seems little point in gleefully pointing and laughing when the other team scores an own goal when you're three goals down and half your team has been sent off for playing cards on the pitch, while the stadium burns around everyone

people who think they are reducing their carbon emissions by driving an electric car.
this is a weird thing to say because it's so obviously provably false in many circumstances (e.g., people who charge off rooftop solar).

even if it was 100% false, it would /still/ be better than the status quo - maybe not for carbon reasons (but it depends on the generation mix in your area, etc) but simply because the emissions are moved out the locations where people live and work and breathe and elsewhere

you want renewables to look terrible? encourage everyone to move to electric cars immediately
people who think more solar panels can possibly substitute for reliable coal baseload generation.
noone seriously thinks this. it is not and has never been about solar as a panacea. it is a layer in the solution, nothing more
it is the classic leftist handwringing - something needs to be done NOW
to be fair they don't want to do it now, they want to do it 20 years ago
otherwise BUSHFIRES, KOALAS, HOMELESS PEOPLE. Never mind whether it's effective.
renewables are just a layer in a more environmentally friendly strategy; plenty of other things we can do to mitigate those three specific things that you mentioned which, incidentally, were all predictions that have all come true

also (sighs heavily) people don't want to do ineffective things
Where is the calling out of China's emissions expansion?
ummm, in many of my posts above? the marketing and lobbying from every non-Chinese manufacturing group in first world countries? every environmental group? in literally every anti-capitalist raving posted in the last decade? China's emissions are terrible. they know they're terrible which is why they're building out s***tonnes of solar and nuclear. but some a******s keep selling them cheap coal

China's emissions are partly enabled by Australia's (ludicrously cheap) coal exports. we have a role to play here. (s*** we could just invent a new tariff called the Trump Green China Tariff and wait for America to follow suit from sheer ego)
Should the diesel fuel rebate be scrapped altogether?
heh do I think a system that lets people get even cheaper fossil fuels should be scrapped altogether?

yes

if you want to have a market that operates like a market, you can't put subsidies in there without hiding the true cost of things

every single subsidy, tax incentive, etc, just adds complexity to an already extremely complex system; the only winners are accountants and people that can pay accountants lots of money. I am a big believer in transparency through simplicity in everything

the best reason to use subsidies is when the cost of something doesn't matter, because it /must/ be done, to do the things that help keep civilisation functioning

if operating like a market is not critical, or even desired, then that's fine - but we need to stop pretending it's a market and call it what it really is: socialism making everything work (as usual)!
PornoPete
Posts: 3922
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

but if all everyone is doing is scoring easy points on each other and ignoring the actual problems with their own positions then we're not going to get anything useful done because noone will ever acknowledge the faults in their own positions, be they factual inaccuracies, logical fallacies, or simply inconsitency


See now you get to the Freud segment of the argument.

For example.

Trog says renewables have had only minor reliability issues in the recent past. Some how while definately not ignoring the problems with his argument, managed to overlook renewables causing a statewide blackout. Nobody is bringing up the California blackouts this year either.

Or describing a 5 minute trading block at midday as a 50% renewable generation day. That's taking you're own weak argument real serious that is.

Then says
you want renewables to look terrible? encourage everyone to move to electric cars immediately

Unless of course you want to drive 600 kms without charging the car for three hours.

ummm, in many of my posts above?


Show us literally one time you did that with out being prompted exactly like here.

You manage not to address how they are allowed to continue to increase their emissions until 2030 under the Paris agreement and then you manage to back it up with this flat lie

they know they're terrible which is why they're building out s***tonnes of solar and nuclear. but some a******s keep selling them cheap coal


They're building s*** tonnes more coal generation. Like Europe's entire coal generation capacity. China are less serious about emissions than trog is, but not alot.

But it would be just *awful* if infi ignored the holes in his argument.
infi
Posts: 24572
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

trog, i respect your appreciation of the limitations to the environmental activist case. environmental protestors are making incoherent arguments the are dictated by emotion instead of practicality.

point scoring is a lot of fun, I agree there is a lot of cherry picking that can be done amongst "greens" who think we should turn off the coal stations now and doing so will not negatively impact their lives.


it is very important to keep reinforcing this point because the minute these magic pills get accepted by a majority of australians we could find labor adopting it and BAM. so I don't consider it point scoring, i consider it highlighting a fundamental flaw to a dangerous public policy.

while the stadium burns around everyone


the stadium stops burning when there is a comprehensive global agreement. australia's subsidy of renewables, or introduction of a carbon tax, are immaterial.

but simply because the emissions are moved out the locations where people live and work and breathe and elsewhere


is it ok to outsource emissions to china and india too?

you want renewables to look terrible?


i don't. I use solar to reduce my peak demand energy bills and it is very effective. as you have stated elsewhere the limitations are obvious to you at least.

ummm, in many of my posts above? the marketing and lobbying from every non-Chinese manufacturing group in first world countries? every environmental group? in literally every anti-capitalist raving posted in the last decade? China's emissions are terrible. they know they're terrible which is why they're building out s***tonnes of solar and nuclear. but some a******s keep selling them cheap coal


so where has china been blamed for the australian bushfires? nope blame Morrison instead who's been in the job 5 mins. LOL

heh do I think a system that lets people get even cheaper fossil fuels should be scrapped altogether?

yes


be prepared for much more expensive food and drink. i don't really care about the diesel rebate but it is illuminating to see various perspectives on it.

Unless of course you want to drive 600 kms without charging the car for three hours.


PP you just described my idea of Hell.

they know they're terrible which is why they're building out s***tonnes of solar and nuclear. but some a******s keep selling them cheap coal


China is building the entire coal-powered electricity generating capacity of Australia EVERY YEAR. so serious about emissions they are.

SO.... this is then the critical public policy questions for you Trog:

1. Should Australia have a carbon tax before major emitters? If yes, do you believe this will impede the Australian economy?

2. Do you believe coal-power production should be shut down in Australia immediately?

3. Do you support nuclear power?
Spook
Posts: 41422
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
^^ there is no hope for us ^^
PornoPete
Posts: 3923
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Why is there no hope?

There are lots of things that can be done about climate change, and if you get China and India on board most people probably won't be resistant.

But until action that will not be futile can be taken nobody is going to Destroy their lifestyle and it is wrong to expect them too.

I might add the sooner the obsession with wind and solar ends the sooner we will move towards an enduring solution.

When trog starts linking to articles that honestly appraise what renewables can't do (for example power an industrial first word economy) I'll start to take him seriously.

If renewables are obviously cheaper and more reliable as I've heard dozens of times in this thread why is not a single country on earth that is at 100% renewable generation? The answer lies in the externalities that every renewables spiv loves to prattle on about.

Finally
but if all everyone is doing is scoring easy points on each other and ignoring the actual problems with their own positions then we're not going to get anything useful done because noone will ever acknowledge the faults in their own positions, be they factual inaccuracies, logical fallacies, or simply inconsitency
the /only/ reason a billion dollars of "tax paid by lower income people" isn't flooding to Adani seems to be a fluke of having Labor is in power in Qld (or possibly they just used it as a smokescreen excuse when they decided it's not financially viable anyway)/
China's emissions are partly enabled by Australia's (ludicrously cheap) coal exports. we have a role to play here. (s*** we could just invent a new tariff called the Trump Green China Tariff and wait for America to follow suit from sheer ego)


So which is it? Is coal financially unviable or ludicrously cheap?

Stop accusing others of what you're doing and you might get a bit of headway.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39872
Location: Other International

it is very important to keep reinforcing this point because the minute these magic pills get accepted by a majority of australians we could find labor adopting it and BAM. so I don't consider it point scoring, i consider it highlighting a fundamental flaw to a dangerous public policy.
conversely, I do not see it as a big risk at all. in the staggeringly unlikely event that the (tiny, fringe, so small it's really not worth talking about) group of people that want to turn off fossil fuel power plants today get their way (note: even the Greens party does not want to do this), what is the most likely outcome?

we suffer brownouts for a week or two before everyone realises it's s*** and then we simply turn them back on. unless literal eco-warriors bulldoze the plants as soon as they're turned off and sow the fields with salt. it's just so staggeringly unlikely that I can't see it happening, ever, but even if it /does/ the outcome seems pretty obvious
the stadium stops burning when there is a comprehensive global agreement. australia's subsidy of renewables, or introduction of a carbon tax, are immaterial.
we will obviously never agree on this but historically it's just not how things have worked. these big global agreements come from one or two people jumping up and down screaming for a while and then everyone else finally gets it. one way or another, we're getting on board with the programme.

this is the difference between leadership and populism, something that the current generation of world leaders (and citizens) seem to simply not understand
so where has china been blamed for the australian bushfires? nope blame Morrison instead who's been in the job 5 mins. LOL
this is one of those things again

noone is blaming Morrison. we're blaming everyone that is in a position of power to effect change, and has been for the last 30 years, for kicking this can down the road. he simply falls into that category. noone is holding him responsible.
be prepared for much more expensive food and drink. i don't really care about the diesel rebate but it is illuminating to see various perspectives on it.
yes, I'm glad we agree on this, although I feel like it's probably more begrudging acceptance instead of genuine enthusiasm

food and drink needs to be more expensive. the cost of certain types of food and drink (and other things that come from primary producers) come from weird f***ed up market situations where the cost is not accurately reflected in the price of their production.

aside: almond growing in California is perhaps not a great example as it's not an Australian problem (although we consume them) but is often held up as the shining example of how badly to do this (even though I think other crops are worse; I have heard alfalfa is a bigger problem but it's not as interesting so noone talks about it) . I am not an expert but my tldr is that growing almonds is super super water intensive (like 1L for /each/ almond) and something like 10% of the water in California goes /just/ to doing this, through various water rights manipulations and massive draining of the ground water. this has been a growing problem in the drought, people are digging deeper & deeper wells, there is just less and less water. everyone wants cheap almost, it's a hugely profitable industry IF there is water, which increasingly there is not.

water use in Australia is already becoming an increasingly huge topic for discussion (well maybe not today after 500mm of rain in some places) thanks to what sound like some odd management decisions by various regulatory authorities
China is building the entire coal-powered electricity generating capacity of Australia EVERY YEAR. so serious about emissions they are.
I find it hard to believe many of the reports coming out of China; one day there are reports that they are building a lot of coal then the next they have mothballed all their plants. in any case, given their "ghost town" approach to construction it matters less how much they're building and how much they actually turn on.

again though, I note that:

a) we cheerfully give China something like 20% their coal, without taking their emissions into consideration, to keep our coal cheap
b) we import a lot of stuff from them, without taking their emissions into consideration through (e.g.) tariffs
c) we shouldn't judge /our/ behaviour by what China does
1. Should Australia have a carbon tax before major emitters?
well we already did, but yes
If yes, do you believe this will impede the Australian economy?
I think it depends entirely on how it is done. pricing it low, today, so it starts being factored in but does not have a huge impact, gradually raising it over time so people can adjust, seems like the obvious solution.

the short answer to your question is "yes", but I think a carbon tax is only one layer in the onion
2. Do you believe coal-power production should be shut down in Australia immediately?
no (thought I made that clear)
3. Do you support nuclear power?
yay a new topic! I don't not support it:

purely practically, we are not going to switch to becoming a nuclear-equipped nation in the next decade. I think if we started building it today, we might have our first plant finished in maybe 15-20 years. I don't know how to estimate what it would cost ($billions obviously) but I have to believe a) the majority of the costs would be borne by the taxpayers and b) it would run massively over budget (given all the current plants being built by nations that have had nuclear for decades seem to be all late and over budget)

without some sort of (ahah) Manhattan Project-esque effort, we cannot meaningfully augment our energy mix with nuclear for at least that long (barring some of the sci fi fission tech often thrown around by nuclear pundits, like mass-produced SMRs, which simply do not exist yet)

I don't know much about the design and operational issues but I note that many plants in Europe have been shut down in recent summers because it has been too hot for them to operate and I wonder how they would go in Australia where it is hot and getting hotter

there is of course the "reputational" issues of nuclear in Australia. if we decided to do it today, I reckon it would take 5 years for us to decide on where it would go. the first nuclear power plant in Australia needs to be built in Canberra, next to Parliament House, for Australians to even have a chance of trusting it

all that said, I think we should at the very least be planning for a nuclear future - both because it's good to have a diversified mix but really, mostly, simply as a hedge bet. I can see a future in which every first world nation is embarking on Manhattan Project-like programmes to build nuclear as fast as we can, to do literally nothing but pull carbon from the air & desalinate water, because everything is f***ed.

BUT the important thing, the absolutely critical thing, is that while we're futzing around trying to get out first nuclear pannerplant online for the best part of the next two decades, we can be deploying renewables. say, every billion dollars we spend investing in nuclear, we spend the same on solar, wind, & smart grid.

every dollar we spent on renewables is stuff that would have an impact, immediately, now, today. Australia is uniquely positioned to take advantage of this fact (big, empty, sunny, windy)

the slight risk is that by the time we have a nuclear plant operational, we might not need it. that is an awesome situation to be in, imho. we can just turn it on and suck carbon from the air and make it into diamonds, or desalinate water and take over the almond market, or something

for some reason there are many in the media and in politics talking about nuclear vs renewables as a false dichotomy. we can do both!
Spook
Posts: 41423
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
id save your keystrokes troggy.

these boys care not for the planet if it costs them an extra cent in taxes, and paying even a cent more in tax is literally a fate worse than (slow) death.

china and india are jumping off the cliff, we should jump with them because they are big and we are small and being big makes them right.



last edited by Spook at 10:52:52 29/Jan/20
PornoPete
Posts: 3924
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

china and india are jumping off the cliff, we should jump with them because they are big and we are small and being big makes them right.

A more accurate description is if they jump off a cliff there is nothing at all that we can do to stop them taking us with them. So why bother spending that money when it can be used on other more productive issues.

But if I had to encapsulate what I see your and trogs argument style to be, it would be this.

yes, I'm glad we agree on this, although I feel like it's probably more begrudging acceptance instead of genuine enthusiasm

food and drink needs to be more expensive. the cost of certain types of food and drink


Self described high income earner says f***ing *food* should be more expensive. And the extra expense must be enthusiastically embraced (while taking of ending a subsidy to infi of all people). Tell that to a family of four with a combined income under $100k. Just make sure there are no guillotines within mob distance before you do.

I should totally take seriously a person who is having a literal Maire Antoinette moment.

And finally we get to the fact free nuclear screed.

You people are pathologically incapable of seeing two steps beyond your choices.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2350
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


lol mr man of the people. Nevermind the gov who thinks low wage growth is a feature.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/dec/31/low-wage-growth-to-cost-average-worker-2100-over-four-years-labor-warns

We know who the guillotines are coming for.


infi
Posts: 24573
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Here's the basic fact the Opposition dunces cannot comprehend.

“Real wages growth, which is wages growth above inflation, is stronger than it was when Labor lost government,” Cormann said in December.


CPI is very low too. DERP
PornoPete
Posts: 3925
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

lol mr man of the people. Nevermind the gov who thinks low wage growth is a feature.


Lol tfw when you think pointing out low wage growth is a rebuttal to actively driving up the cost of food to achieve no impact on climate change.
We know who the guillotines are coming for.

Yeah. we do.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 818
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

If renewables are so great and so cheap, then why doesn't China switch to them today? I mean, they manufacture all the batteries and all the solar cells already so surely it would be at minimum cost for them to embrace this technology instead of shipping coal at great expense from overseas?

It's almost comical how bad the environmentalists understand the problem.

How was wage growth between 2007 and 2013 under Labor? Oh, that's right. Stagnant. Do people have memories longer than goldfish these days?
fpot
Posts: 26901
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Was there any sort of significant financial event that happened between 2007-2013 that may have had an impact on wage growth?
PornoPete
Posts: 3926
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Oh you mean global conditions have big effects on wage growth that the Commonwealth has no real control over?

Very solid gold coast bouncer point.

Stick to saying chud and piece of s***.
infi
Posts: 24574
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Australian economy has expanded every year for 29 years, so NO. (Thanks China.)
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39873
Location: Other International

Australian economy has expanded every year for 29 years, so NO. (Thanks China.)
they are talking about the rate of growth, not whether or not it grew (edit: right?)

two follow up questions:

1) do you think this record period of stunningly low interest rates/pseudo MMT we are living in might impact this (trivial) economic statistical achievement that Cormann desperately trotted out in response to the (hard) data showing record low growth?

2) do you think the fact that inflation being well below the inflation targets has made that real wage growth figures easier to achieve?

(I find it hard to talk about inflation targeting with a straight face after hearing the history in this great NPR podcast. it was invented by the Kiwis! super interesting.)
infi
Posts: 24575
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

A feature of the modern tech driven economy is that it is very hard to generate inflation because as I see the amount of technology in society is increasing our quality of life along with automation of mundane and dangerous work. this drives down the need for low skilled labor as new jobs come online mopping up this labor surplus in emerging sectors, so there is never a labor shortage and thus never a wage breakout. (USA truck drivers in 2019 was an interesting example, pay rates skyrocketed as the Amazon package economy blew up).

inflation really comes down to expansion of government spending or bank lending. if people are not confident about the future they don't borrow as much. low interest rates are saying to me that money is no worth much i.e. people don't want to borrow. traditionally capitalists made their wealth by borrowing but now governments all round the world borrow money at negative rates (rates suppressed by their central banks), dole it out in the form of welfare or corporate throwbacks and then banks are required to hold negative yielding bonds due to basel 3 requirements in a perverse money go round. banks then have to make their money on the remaining private sector lending. banks are not going to enjoy the next 10 years.

1) do you think this record period of stunningly low interest rates/pseudo MMT we are living in might impact this (trivial) economic statistical achievement that Cormann desperately trotted out in response to the (hard) data showing record low growth?


If a government really wanted GDP growth and inflation then MMT is defiinitely the way to go. Venezuela and Zimbabwe are great case studies. GDP increases with any govt expenditure. If the govt embarked on helicopter money or digging holes in the ground then filling them back in (standard govt type work) then GDP would increase. The Aus govt is nowhere near MMT style govt. USA is experiencing it right now (a crony capitalist economy driven by military/industrial complex and political pork barreling) - they are just lucky they have the world's reserve currency.

2) do you think the fact that inflation being well below the inflation targets has made that real wage growth figures easier to achieve?


for sure. inflation is taxation by stealth. a country with high inflation means their govt (or private bankers) is printing money, spending it to win elections, then that money is passed onto workers where it is already worth less. low inflation is always better for the workers because their pay rises buy more. have you ever asked yourself why there is an inflation target? hmmmm
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39874
Location: Other International

have you ever asked yourself why there is an inflation target? hmmmm
umm. that is addressed in the NPR link I provided (tldr: some kiwi guy said "hey I wonder what happens if we tried to limit inflation to a totally arbitrary number?" and they did it and after a few years it worked)

the fact that inflation is so low while everyone is printing money (particularly in the US) just makes me wonder if we've figured out a way to take advantage of free money while surpressing the impact on the inflation metric. Given that since inflation targeting came out governments seem to just be tweaking knobs like interest rate to control it without worrying too much about other impacts (e.g., housing market), I am waiting for the other shoe to drop.

with corporate debt what it is today and the fact that everyone assumes this state of affairs is excellent and will continue forever, I am increasingly concerned. (there was a statement yesterday by some venture capitalist on tweeter who said "the time from first email/contact to term sheet has shrunk from 90 days in 2004 to just 9 today" - I find it slightly hard to believe these people have refined their ability to pick winners down by such a margin, but there's just soooo muchhhh cassshhhh that they can spray it literally anywhere and still make money).

interestingly enough the company I am contracting for exists to (basically) insure corporate debt and they still seem upbeat about the whole thing so maybe everything is fine after all
If a government really wanted GDP growth and inflation then MMT is defiinitely the way to go. Venezuela and Zimbabwe are great case studies. GDP increases with any govt expenditure. If the govt embarked on helicopter money or digging holes in the ground then filling them back in (standard govt type work) then GDP would increase. The Aus govt is nowhere near MMT style govt. USA is experiencing it right now (a crony capitalist economy driven by military/industrial complex and political pork barreling) - they are just lucky they have the world's reserve currency.
the USA is the country that would benefit the most on a "digging holes in the ground" scheme with all the money they're printing. but (as you say) it is going to the wrong places. they could embark on a Manhattan Project (I need another metaphor) to build train network or fix their ailing infrastructure or any number of things useful to their citizens

instead it's just being siphoned off by the giant corporates who have figured out how to make their executives rich through share buybacks while racking up just stunning amounts of debt, with a smokescreen of blown up share prices and increased employment to cover their tracks.

just feels like it's going to work perfectly, until one day, it doesn't

ah well, that's what government bailouts are for
infi
Posts: 24576
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

they could embark on a Manhattan Project (I need another metaphor) to build train network or fix their ailing infrastructure or any number of things useful to their citizens


they definitely need that. Trump said he was going to do it. We will just have to wait for EP2 ;) I have to laugh at USA's deficits - they could not give a f***. They all spend like they are at a unit party. "Hey do you know who's place this is?"

just feels like it's going to work perfectly, until one day, it doesn't


One thing that tells me the market is slowly waking up to this government trick is that asset values are inflating across the board - US bonds, equities, gold and bitcoin are all on an upward march (US dollar is having a pretty good time too but that is more of an offshore liquidity thing - because EU banks often lend in US dollars). If investors were cycling from one asset to another it wouldnt be so much of a concern.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39875
Location: Other International

it'd be a lot funnier if Australia & so much of the rest of the world economy wasn't inexorably linked to the fate of the US

waiting to see the fallout from coronavirus. I seem have two classes of people tweeting about this in my timeline:

1) actual scientists who are saying it's a little worse than a bad flu outbreak, but probably not SARS bad
2) finance market-type people who are saying it is the worst thing ever and it is going to wipe out everything

would like to know what positions the latter are holding before I decide whether to take them as seriously as the first category
fpot
Posts: 26903
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Speaking of funny

PornoPete
Posts: 3927
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Renewables are so cheap and so reliable simply energy is asking people to voluntarily turn off their electricity in Victoria today.

Closing Hazelwood with out a plan to replace it was *an amazing* decision.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2351
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Closing Hazelwood with out a plan to replace it was *an amazing* decision.


Coal is so cheap tho, the market should just whip up another and rake in the profits.

edit: how good are sportz rortz?
PornoPete
Posts: 3928
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah good point. That's something the Victorian government would definitely allow.
Spook
Posts: 41426
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
leader of the free world

https://twitter.com/MrJlumanji/status/1224174185607360512?s=07&fbclid=IwAR1W-HfiQnRjq4s0O-PjCo8VaTGpb8AAHnU3w-A8rxGEA7yZwV0puGHj5mc
infi
Posts: 24577
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I backed the Chiefs for a win feels good man
PornoPete
Posts: 3929
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Trump really has been blessed with a uniquely buffoonish and incompetent opposition.

I didn't think Adam "Trump will give Alaska to Russia" Schiff would be topped when I woke up this morning.

But then Iowa. f*** me.
fpot
Posts: 26905
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

"...we didn't have slavery in this country for over 100 years because it was a bad thing. Quite the opposite: Slavery built the South. I'm not saying we should bring it back. I'm just saying it had its merits. For one thing, the streets were safer after dark." - Rush Limbaugh


This guy was just given the Presidential Medal of Freedom by a person who is not racist and also not fascist.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 819
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Trump would be loved 1/10th as much as he is if the Dems simply kept their adult pants on for more than 5 minutes. They can't do it. They repeatedly signal that Trump is living in their heads rent free and the outcome is always glorious.

The left are the bully victims at school who, instead of it making them into mentally resilient achievers, are the ones who stay victims and complain ad nauseam about every perceived slight, chuck tantys ripping up speeches about record black employment and war veterans, dye their hair purple, eat soy, attend rallies chanting about literally abolishing the USA, that sort of thing. The list goes on forever.

ps. Even Snopes questions that fpot. Not that you'd care about facts.
fpot
Posts: 26906
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

And you're the bully victim who rose above all adversity to become a frightened little incel boy who embodies everything a human being should aspire not to be. Whose entire life is dedicated to finding the right lies to sustain this false self-belief of being something more than a repugnant little s***stain.

It's funny talking to garden variety chuds like infi because I know the words he's saying now are going to be a real embarrassment to him one day. I believe there is a shred of self-awareness lying buried that will become active the day he needs to shield himself from that embarrassment when every card is on the table. Incel chuds like our shrink-wrap dicked little friend here? They are in it for life. There is no level of shame that can penetrate their facade. It must suck to feel absolutely no hope for yourself but have a disease that makes it so you have to spend your entire life pretending that you do.
Insom
Posts: 4698
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Nancy should have kept the speech, perfect reading for the Capitol s***ter and also if you are out of paper
infi
Posts: 24578
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I think Nancy secretly has the hots for Trump. Classic schoolgirl tactic.
PornoPete
Posts: 3930
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Every time fpot posts these diatribes remember trog said this

you are actually in a discussion with several of those "climate alarmists" right now - I know fpot and Spook are actual real humans that I have met in person - but you insist on putting words in our mouths, questioning our motives, assuming we're lying and that it's all being done in favour of our egos. why don't you ask us actual questions instead of continuing to build up a completely fantasy-based caricature of what you imagine a "climate alarmist" to be?


Speaking of fantasy based politics I guess this is what it looks like when "master tactician" Pelosi impeached trump into a second term, while landing savage body blows on Biden's campaign.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 820
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Another day, another comedic hair-trigger rant from our resident nobody fpot. It is sad that it's this easy but then again, screaming at the sky is something the left is known for.

Some more amazing insight from the intellectual leader of the left in the USA.
Nmag
Posts: 1261
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

And you're the bully victim who rose above all adversity to become a frightened little incel boy who embodies everything a human being should aspire not to be. Whose entire life is dedicated to finding the right lies to sustain this false self-belief of being something more than a repugnant little s***stain.

It's funny talking to garden variety chuds like infi because I know the words he's saying now are going to be a real embarrassment to him one day. I believe there is a shred of self-awareness lying buried that will become active the day he needs to shield himself from that embarrassment when every card is on the table. Incel chuds like our shrink-wrap dicked little friend here? They are in it for life. There is no level of shame that can penetrate their facade. It must suck to feel absolutely no hope for yourself but have a disease that makes it so you have to spend your entire life pretending that you do.


wow? Were you sniffling and crying as you wrote that fpot?

https://media3.giphy.com/media/cXI55CK9F49NK/giphy.gif
fpot
Posts: 26907
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Uhhh no. Oddly enough like most of the stuff I direct at dazed it also 100% applies to you in case you were feeling left out.

Can you not understand how as someone who enjoys watching the ways chuds ignore reality this is a really good time for me? I can't get this in real life because even all the hard openly racist right-wingers I know think trump is a joke. Only here can I watch chuds employ all sorts of new ways to be willfully ignorant as things pile up higher and higher. Just the other day we saw an impeached president acquitted by an openly corrupt Republican senate who also would have acquitted Ted Bundy because he never actually said he killed anyone and he also seems very sorry.

Sometimes I think one of the barriers stopping the average Joe* from really understanding the situation is it seems too far-fetched. The potus assisted a foreign superpower in an attack against the USA, that attack was to have that potus elected, the potus then committed crimes covering up that assistance. Then after getting away with it, the potus committed the same crimes by asking a Ukraine to start a sham investigation into a political opponent to assist him in the upcoming election and then committed more crimes covering that up. How can that possibly be true?

Well it's objective reality and also a very conservative take on the situation that leaves a whole bunch of stuff out that can't be confirmed at this point because I kind of like to play it safe here and just keep my opinions in the non-controversial spectrum. Of course we're about to see the fresh new tactic of chuds simply declaring the opposite to be true which I can't really blame them for because it works.

* thought I better add, average Joe meaning someone who is apolitical.
infi
Posts: 24579
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Thee Democrats said they were impeaching Trump on the day he was elected so I guess that means they weren't really open minded about the situation. But you're calling the Senate corrupt? The whole impeachment was bogus in the first place. Democrats can't even make up their mind what they are pursuing.

Trump's speech was a home run, there was so much good news to report. The US economy is on fire. Last night's jobs report was red hot. He cleverly completely ignored the impeachment. The impeachment will be remembered as a partisan sandcastle that washed away.

And then there's the democratic primaries. What an embarrassing debacle. As futile as all attempts are to beat Trump I like Mayor Pete's presentation. But as usual with Democrats the problem is with the content. I think Pete is a good chance at $6.50 to win the primary.

Did you see Bloombergvs sombre big gay icecream ad? Pretty much sums up 2020 in 10 seconds. Identity politics is so embedded in the Democrats even non-believers are obliged to go through the motions.

Trump has fallen from $2 to $1.58 and that's still great value. I would rate him more like $1.15. Please don't e-leave fpot. We need you to be here for December.
PornoPete
Posts: 3931
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

What's especially entertaining is that the really f***ing dumb middle aged gold coast bouncer says s*** like this

Can you not understand how as someone who enjoys watching the ways chuds ignore reality this is a really good time for me?


And then does this

The potus assisted a foreign superpower in an attack against the USA, that attack was to have that potus elected, the potus then committed crimes covering up that assistance. Then after getting away with it, the potus committed the same crimes by asking a Ukraine to start a sham investigation into a political opponent to assist him in the upcoming election and then committed more crimes covering that up. How can that possibly be true?


Literally nothing about that paragraph is even close to true. That's close to a vash level self own.

It's only going to get more vitriolic from here. The party that can't even count votes shockingly might struggle to make the case they should govern. Even better the people who claim American democracy will never recover from trump have since his election:
Demanded the Supreme Court be packed
Demanded the Senate be altered to give coastal states more power
Demanded Abolishing the electoral college.

Deep down he has to know that the profound incompetence combined with the smug know it all attitude he displays is right of the very centre of why trump will be re-elected. I suspect it's why he's so vitriolic.
fpot
Posts: 26908
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Thee Democrats said they were impeaching Trump on the day he was elected so I guess that means they weren't really open minded about the situation.
The democrats knew a career criminal was going to continue to commit crimes while president and were right. The GOP is absolutely and utterly corrupt. They just covered up crimes that were committed in plain sight by the potus. To be honest I don't know why they would considering the (hopefully) long-term reprisals that will come of it, but it appears they may just be ignoring his crimes to save face temporarily. Can't have people thinking the president is dirty can they?

Here's an opinion that is a wee bit controversial. I'd argue that a country led by an undemocratically elected leader who openly obstructs justice, intimidates witnesses, retaliates against witnesses, praises murderous foreign dictators, openly associates with criminals and ticks every single box several times on any warnings of fascism checklist you'd care to shove in my face isn't a democracy. When the oversight the government is meant to provide ignores what they've just ignored there's only one way things can go. The chuds now know that the great leader is able to commit serious crimes openly and get away with it. Imagine how that will expand his capacity for inflicting cruelty on brown subhuman filth, which is what his popularity is all about. Things are looking good.
infi
Posts: 24580
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Oh we are back to "literally fascism".

Here's the compelling truth that you cannot escape about why Trump did not commit a crime - because he was acquitted. It's not a subjective test based on what YOU think. It's a test based on how the Congress and Senate vote - enshrined in a Constitution. You use the word "crime" like by typing it brings with it some gravity. But it doesn't. The one body charged with administering justice via an INTENTIONALLY political process has just made its decision. If a serious crime were to actually have been conducted then the Senate would do the right thing like they did with Nixon. In this case the converse occurred. The matter was summarily dispensed with because it was phony.

As to the claim that Trump can conduct himself with impunity, there is an election coming in 9 months where the American people are about to assess his ethics and give him the tick of approval. You're gonna need to add some more numbers to your rage meter.

Imagine how that will expand his capacity for inflicting cruelty on brown subhuman filth, which is what his popularity is all about.


Yeah, all the drone strikes on middle-easterners and illegal aliens in cages? Oh hang, that was Obama, my bad.

All the complaining in the world will not change the objective reality, that your claims at every stage have been demonstrated wrong by the very same institutions that gave Obama 2 terms. The US flyover states just realised how s***ty those 2 terms were.

If the US can keep up the record low unemployment for black and latinos, and keep reducing opioid abuse things are certainly looking up, on top of the 255,000 new jobs per months. Hot damn. When can Australia get some of this!
PornoPete
Posts: 3932
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Something something Chud. Something something facisim. Something something brown people.

You'd think you'd pick up some humility after being flat wrong for three straight years.
fpot
Posts: 26909
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

It wasn't a trial it was a cover up. trump committed crimes. It's inverse not converse you dumb f***. An election like the last one which trump helped the Russians attack and they're no doubt attacking again, or an election like this one that trump has already sought foreign interference in? Nixon resigned, which is what trump should have done when he heard Mueller's report existed. The conflict in the Middle-East started by the GOP based on a lie have anything to do with those drone strikes you reckon? Gee I wonder why trump stopped reporting civilian casualties resulting from US drone strike? It must be because he cares about jobs, growth and families so much. Obama never instituted family separation as a policy to deter families seeking asylum, which is a human right. Don't seek asylum in the US, or we'll separate you from your children and then lose them in the system. Haha just kidding, there never was a system. Let's go hit nine.
infi
Posts: 24581
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Bruh.

"You say conversely to indicate that the situation you are about to describe is the opposite or reverse of the one you have just described."

Nixon resigned


Why did he resign? (It's because GOP Senators said they would convict him.)

Obama executed those policies faithfully, he oversaw the cages and the drone strikes. They are facts no matter how much you dislike them.

You are on a self-own roll today.

Trumps power doubles after absorbing impeachment attack
fpot
Posts: 26910
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Okay you got me on the converse I guess I am the dumb f*** today.

Nixon resigned because he committed crimes and knew he was going to face justice for those crimes. trump didn't resign because he committed crimes and knew he wasn't going to face justice due to a political party rotten to the core. Imagine a person has been charged with a crime. The prosecution has a huge brief of evidence they wish to present. The defendant argues that the prosecution should not be able to present documents and witnesses during the trial. The reason being that they're just so damn innocent it would be an insult for things like evidence to be presented. The prosecution glance nervously at each other when they realise that the judge has no power, and that the decision whether to proceed this way is up to the jury. A jury where a majority of the members have a vested interest in making sure the defendant is found not guilty.

This is what the GOP are considering a legitimate acquittal. What would happen if all trials were conducted this way, do you reckon?
infi
Posts: 24582
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Nixon resigned when the GOP told him that enough Senators had shifted their votes. He knew if he did not resign he would be convicted. It had nothing to do with the evidence, it had everything to do with the numbers. Politics is math.

What would happen if all trials were conducted this way, do you reckon?


1. An impeachment is not a judicial process. It is an exposition of evidence before politicians.
2. The Democrats were able to submit all their evidence via the first stage of the impeachment in the House, they were in control.
3. The defense was blocked from calling certain witnesses in the House hearing. therefore the Democrats had every opportunity to present their case while the defense did not.
4. Even if you wish to draw an analogy to criminal process, an appeal rarely ever hears new evidence. 99% of the time they are heard on the trial evidence.
5. The jury in the case of an impeachment are all vested, it is a purely political process. There is no need to hold a facade of impartiality.
6. The charges do not exist in any criminal code, they were made up.
7. A president can be impeached simply because the House and Congress do not like him/her. (Which is really what the Democrats tried to do in this instance.)

You now know how an impeachment works.
PornoPete
Posts: 3933
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

He always gets fuzzy on the details don't he.

Specifically what crime did he commit? No answer just bloviating about "rotten to the core".

I love that Trump's re-election is *still* going to come as a shock to him.
fpot
Posts: 26911
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

1. Except when evidence is suppressed. Then it's called a cover up
2. And what was the result of that stage again? The one where evidence was allowed?
3. trump refused to participate. Because he was just so innocent. I know when I'm innocent of a crime and have a trial I don't present any defense at all. If I'm not producing a defense then I must be innocent!
4. Not sure why you mentioned this one to be honest.
5. Yeah which causes a bit of a problem when the person is obviously guilty and the majority of the jurors want the verdict to be not guilty.
6. He obstructed congress in an investigation to cover up when he abused his office for personal gain.
7. The democrats started a politically damaging impeachment process that was never going to work because they just dislike trump so much. Or trump's brazen and open criminality forced them to impeach. If they didn't then they may as well be complicit in his crimes.

I do enjoy your giant big lists of dumb though.
infi
Posts: 24583
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

In criminal cases the accused has a right to silence.

Impeachment like the Mueller report will next week be a distant memory.
PornoPete
Posts: 3934
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Hey you know what fpots list doesn't have? A specific crime. Again.

He just keeps repeating Democrat talking points like a retard.

In criminal cases the accused has a right to silence.


They also have a right to cross examination. Which the democrats didn't allow.

Hearsay evidence is also excluded and not a single democrat "witness" actually witnessed anything.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 821
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

fpot: Talks about how fun it is watching people deny reality.

Also fpot: 100% wrong for 3 straight years and rolling and still blames everything on some conspiracy that he has zero evidence for except that he didn't like the outcome.

He is basically a really really poor man's Cenk Uygur


fpot
Posts: 26912
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

It's so cute watching people like you use the word evidence, like you actually know the meaning of the word. Here's the thing though, and like I've already mentioned, I keep things here simple and non-controversial. The things I bring up are accepted facts on the public record and in the context of an internet forum discussion don't require evidence. Just because you're some conspiracy numpty who is trying to push the 'fake news' don't believe your own eyes and ears but only what the great leader says angle doesn't mean I have to waste time by posting links or whatever to things that constitute basic reality.
PornoPete
Posts: 3935
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It's so cute watching people like you use the word evidence, like you actually know the meaning of the word.


Don't forget he believes the literal opposite of the conclusion of the Mueller report.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 822
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

The things I bring up are accepted facts on the public record and in the context of an internet forum discussion don't require evidence.


It's always the people that are right that feel the need to emphasise how they don't need evidence for reasons they also define as legitimate. You're a bad joke.

Just because you're some conspiracy numpty


Not a conspiracy numpty.

Believes that Trump conspired to force Mueller to find he was not guilty of collusion with Russia. Believes Trump conspired to destroy his political opposition and get away with it by forcing the Republican controlled senate to acquit him.

^ both of these positions are held by the same guy.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https://i.imgflip.com/32zcri.jpg&amp;f=1&amp;nofb=1
fpot
Posts: 26913
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

lol what. If you're going to make stuff up it needs to have at least a kernel of truth to it.
Nmag
Posts: 1262
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

They say Trump might get another term.
PornoPete
Posts: 3936
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

lol what. If you're going to make stuff up it needs to have at least a kernel of truth to it.


Ok Mr Trump helped Russia attack America to hurt brown people.

They say Trump might get another term.


It's difficult to see the people who want to run every aspect economy because they think they are so smart but can't organise counting people standing in groups in a high school gym with out f***ing it up putting a compelling case forward from here.
dazedandconfused
Posts: 823
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Sorry was your conspiracy the one where Trump was pissed on by prostitutes on a collusion trip to Moscow? I can't keep up with the depths of your intellectual deficiencies.

Good to see that the Dems are pushing the actual communist to the front of the polls now. That should work out well for them in November. I am always told by centrists that it's the far Left that we have to worry about and that liberals are actually good people with policy being the only thing separating us. It's clear to anyone with eyes and more than 14 brain cells now that the base of every left-wing major party in the west are actually left-wing extremists and would rather actual communism than the moderate left that Biden represented.

I'm glad that we can now at least lay to rest the theory that liberals are good people. They aren't.
infi
Posts: 24584
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

have a listen to the George Papadopoulos podcast on just how phony the Deep State's attempt to derail Trump's campaign was. The Justice Dept is hopefully going to prosecute all of these stooges. And Alexander Downer was at the centre of this operation. Shame!

https://twitter.com/PUNCHINGBACKPOD
fpot
Posts: 26914
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Sorry was your conspiracy the one where Trump was pissed on by prostitutes on a collusion trip to Moscow?
Again, no. Your fellow chuds obviously don't mind, but do you not realise how ridiculous you sound when you lie about conspiracy theories I've promoted (and not just normal lies, really bizarre lies) and then froth about how the democrats are actually extremist left communists and they are the real evil ones? Do you not understand how someone like me would get enjoyment from the internal meltdown you must have experienced that would make you resort to such absurd bulls***?

the Deep State's attempt
lol
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39878
Location: Other International

genuinely curious if you are having a laugh at George Papadopoulos or you seriously think he is credible?

edit: I hope it's the former because then it means the irony of you saying who cares about the Mueller report and then bringing up this guy is not lost on you
PornoPete
Posts: 3937
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Ah yeah so this is your brain on working in IT in East London.

genuinely curious if you are having a laugh at George Papadopoulos or you seriously think he is credible?

edit: I hope it's the former because then it means the irony of you saying who cares about the Mueller report and then bringing up this guy is not lost on you


Genuinely curious if you think the Mueller report was damaging to Trump. For people with a primary school reading ability it *very clearly* states there was no collusion with Russia, which is terminal to an obstruction of justice case.

And if so what your explanation as to why the democrats did not rely on its findings to impeach and the *damning* IG report into the FBI's FISA abuses.

Failing that a working definition of *credible*.
infi
Posts: 24585
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


Papadopoulos is the real deal. Mueller report was based on non-existant evidence manufactured by intelligence agencies allied to Clinton.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/12/bill-barr-john-durham-michael-horowitz-inspector-general-report

Hopefully a wide ranging investigation will flush all this treasonous behaviour. The conduct by these operatives is disgraceful.

Mueller report was a total nothing burger, justice like CNN secretly admitted.

Alexander Downer goes to the heart of this scandal.


trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39879
Location: Other International

so if I understand correctly, you doubt the entire legal institutions of the USA at the moment and think the whole system is corrupt?
infi
Posts: 24586
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

so if I understand correctly, you doubt the entire legal institutions of the USA at the moment and think the whole system is corrupt?


Now they are somewhat remedied because the corrupt actors have resigned and been fired. Did you even read the news about the Inspector General report?

- Emails doctored by FBI operatives to support FISA warrant aplications;
- Fake dossiers of utter bulls***, by Russian actors

And here we have a Mueller report trying to paint the Trump campaign as involved with Russia when the FBI agents initiating surveillance WERE ACTUALLY involved with Russians.

But make no mistake, if the intelligence community doesn't think a presidential candidate suits their agenda they will do their best to make the candidate fail. Popadopolous describes their methods in detail.

Hopefully these bad actors get some serous jail time for ACTUAL obstruction of justice and treason. As Popa says, what they did makes Watergate look pedestrian.
PornoPete
Posts: 3938
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

you are actually in a discussion with several of those "climate alarmists" right now - I know fpot and Spook are actual real humans that I have met in person - but you insist on putting words in our mouths, questioning our motives, assuming we're lying and that it's all being done in favour of our egos. why don't you ask us actual questions instead of continuing to build up a completely fantasy-based caricature of what you imagine a "climate alarmist" to be?
so if I understand correctly, you doubt the entire legal institutions of the USA at the moment and think the whole system is corrupt?


So if understand correctly you could draw that conclusion only if your head is planted firmly in own asahole.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39880
Location: Other International

wait did I just ask someone that used the phrase "Deep State" seriously if he believes in the rule of law

I recall way back when he was voted in and I asked something along the lines of: "what could Trump do that would make you stop supporting him?" and you replied "raise taxes"

I will never forget that. I respect the honesty of it

I instituted a personal moratorium on US news a few weeks ago, until after the election is over; I can't sit around and watch the Democrats flail around like idiots for most of the year and literally everything Trump and the Republicans do makes me weary
infi
Posts: 24587
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


what could Trump do that would make you stop supporting him?

you can add to that list a second item: not prosecute the illegal surveillance of his campaign. Unaccountable intelligence agencies need a good clean out from time to time.

If you don't believe in the concept of the Deep State I will just leave this here for you to contemplate.

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/304009-clapper-denied-nsa-surveillance-in-us-weeks-before-verizon-tracking-program-began-

You may have also heard of a guy named Edward Snowden. If you don't believe the Deep State is doing its own thing, while both Congress and the President have no f***ing clue, then you're a chump. (same goes for Aus.)


fpot
Posts: 26915
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

wait did I just ask someone that used the phrase "Deep State" seriously if he believes in the rule of law
Yeah you did.

There is nothing functionally different between the deep state conspiracy crew and a 9/11 truther or flat earther. They're all affected by the exact same critical thinking defects. Think back to when 9/11 truthers were in their prime. They'd be like, hey check out this link that PROVES 9/11 was an inside job. You'd read it and it would be complete nonsense, just like what I'd be reading if I was stupid enough to click on any of infi's links above. In the past they'd develop their little ideas and lies to counter the truth themselves and they'd be quite funny and fragmented but what Russian troll farm twitter has done is found a way to unify them and provide them with a consistent set of lies that they can propagate elsewhere. That's the genius of it.

The problem is that they lock themselves into the conspiracy, and the feeble little minds who believe it in the first place are nowhere near strong enough to abort the idea when it becomes patently ridiculous. So they keep believing and promoting bigger and bigger lies and we're left with these tragic trainwrecks of humanity. In the past they were just forms of amusement and schadenfreude but I'm starting to think maybe it is not okay to laugh at them. I feel like I may be ignoring some sort of threat but I could very well be overreacting there.
PornoPete
Posts: 3939
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

wait did I just ask someone that used the phrase "Deep State" seriously if he believes in the rule of law


What's funny is that concocting a fantasies that allow you to disregard the outcome of elections *cough* "Russia attacked America and Trump helped" *cough* or *cough* "Republicans engaged in voter suppression" *cough* or * cough* "we need to do away with the electoral college and the senate because they give small states too much power in a federal system expressly designed to guarantee the equality of states" *cough*
Are all open broadside attacks on rule of law. Much more serious ones I might add than believing the incontrovertible truth that the US has a permanent bureaucracy who are not answerable directly to the electorate.

There is nothing functionally different between the deep state conspiracy crew and a 9/11 truther or flat earther. They're all affected by the exact same critical thinking defects.


For example. Capitan Russia attacked America with trump to hurt brown people has an opinion on critical thinking. Good times.
Nmag
Posts: 1263
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

For the next US term I hope Bernie gets. It will be entertaining to see the financial and social disaster that unfolds.

I hope he goes for a Robin Hood styled suit and gives the average forklift operator the opportunity to participate more in the business planning of their employer, cause that would work really well.. as we are all equal.

http://www.standbyformindcontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/time_bandits_26.png
infi
Posts: 24588
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

why would you risk Bolshevik misery on the US just when it is motoring along?
dazedandconfused
Posts: 824
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Again, no. Your fellow chuds obviously don't mind, but do you not realise how ridiculous you sound when you lie about conspiracy theories I've promoted (and not just normal lies, really bizarre lies) and then froth about how the democrats are actually extremist left communists and they are the real evil ones? Do you not understand how someone like me would get enjoyment from the internal meltdown you must have experienced that would make you resort to such absurd bulls***?


It's handy not admitting to supporting any conspiracy theory that Trump colluded with Russia when you try to insult somebody by calling them a conspiracy numpty. I was simply elaborating on the genesis of that conspiracy but you're even too dumb to realise that. Everyone who has spent more than 5 minutes on this forum knows all about your retarded Trump-Russia conspiracy beliefs. Nice try though.

Here's a reminder of what Trump-Russia collusion conspiracy theories fpot believes that have been debunked by the same evidence he says proves his theories correct:

1) Russia attacked the USA
2) trump helped Russia attack the USA because installing him as potus was the attack
3) trump then committed crimes covering up how he helped Russia attack the USA

Numpty indeed.
fpot
Posts: 26916
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

1) Russia attacked the USA
2) trump helped Russia attack the USA because installing him as potus was the attack
3) trump then committed crimes covering up how he helped Russia attack the USA


Yep, that's what happened. Supported in detail by Mueller's report. Your bizarre claim that it actually debunks those things is just your standard fake news conspiracy defence mechanism to help you hide from the truth. That's all your brain is capable of, fooling itself, because you're a conspiracy numpty. Sucks to be you pal.

edit: oh and then instead of resigning, which is what would normally happen, he committed a very similar set of crimes in regards to Ukraine and with the help of an openly corrupt GOP senate got away with that too. And then as a result of getting away with that new set of crimes decided it is now okay for team member William Barr to directly interfere with his associate Roger Stone's case because why the f*** not right?
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39881
Location: Other International


what could Trump do that would make you stop supporting him?

you can add to that list a second item: not prosecute the illegal surveillance of his campaign. Unaccountable intelligence agencies need a good clean out from time to time.

If you don't believe in the concept of the Deep State I will just leave this here for you to contemplate.

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/304009-clapper-denied-nsa-surveillance-in-us-weeks-before-verizon-tracking-program-began-

You may have also heard of a guy named Edward Snowden. If you don't believe the Deep State is doing its own thing, while both Congress and the President have no f***ing clue, then you're a chump. (same goes for Aus.)


wow you are pro-Snowden?! I wish AG forum search wasn't broken so I could go deep-diving in the old political nightmare threads to see if you have always felt like this :D

here's what I don't get - the current leader of the US lies all the time

he lies like a common charlatan or cult leader. he lies even when he doesn't need to! he lies to serve his own ends, maybe sometimes he's lying to serve American's ends, or the Republican ends, but mostly it doesn't feel like it because most of the lies are just so obviously transparent

when the leader of the country has that kind of relationship with the truth, do you think the other people in his administration are going to be more or less trustworthy? when they can see him lying literally all the time, getting called out on it, but then nothing happens

so I'm curious: do you think Trump is not lying (and by extension every time he's fact-checked and found wrong, they are the ones that are wrong)? or do you think the lies don't matter and it has no effect on everyone around him?

why would you risk Bolshevik misery on the US just when it is motoring along?
I thought we agreed earlier that all is not what it seems in the US economy these days
infi
Posts: 24589
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

so I'm curious: do you think Trump is not lying (and by extension every time he's fact-checked and found wrong, they are the ones that are wrong)? or do you think the lies don't matter and it has no effect on everyone around him?


The vast majority of the "lies" the fake news pulls Trump on are mere marketing "puff" (exaggeration) which the common law courts (and most grounded non-hysterical people) have realised is part and parcel of marketing, showmanship, hype and the general way the world spins. It's the way Trump worked before he came to office and he has stayed true to the game. He cries about the fake news like a soccer player or basketball player milks a foul. Sometimes you get a penalty sometimes you get penalised. it's all part of the game.

I am yet to see anything criminal or anti-American interests. Record unemployment; tarrifs on China; renegotiated NAFTA; no negative rates etc etc his SOTU speech was a great overvierw. USA is head and shoulder above every other country from an economic performance POV - and geopolitically- Trump annihilates the pathetic Obama positions.

I get a real laugh every time fpot suggests Trump is a Russian asset and colluding with foreign powers. it is honestly a sheer joy to see such profound delusion this close to home. So much more enjoyable than the random hysteria on CNN and MSNBC.

I thought we agreed earlier that all is not what it seems in the US economy these days


what a second - it's one thing having a structural deficit with no hope of ever repaying, and another thing to tax someone at 90%. he makes jeremy corbyn look like Bruce Banner.
PornoPete
Posts: 3940
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yep, that's what happened. Supported in detail by Mueller's report.



Except the Mueller report states in exhaustive detail that didn't happen.

Just ask him to get specific about what attack means and what trump helping means. He either can't read or has confused "attack" with post Facebook memes.

Anything less than pinpoint paragraph reference means fpot is lying. He is also quite comfortable lying about having read it.

so I'm curious: do you think Trump is not lying (and by extension every time he's fact-checked and found wrong, they are the ones that are wrong)? or do you think the lies don't matter and it has no effect on everyone around him?


Imagine think with an adult brain that us media "fact checkers" passively assess hard factual claims.
fpot
Posts: 26917
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

The vast majority of the "lies" the fake news pulls Trump on are mere marketing "puff" (exaggeration) which the common law courts (and most grounded non-hysterical people) have realised is part and parcel of marketing, showmanship, hype and the general way the world spins
Nah, they're just lies.

edit: here's a good example. A lie trump promotes is that CrowdStrike is a Ukrainian owned company (it's based in California) and had planted evidence on a server falsely implicating Russia in its attack on the 2016 US Election (Russia were clearly the culprits). This is pure Russian propaganda yet trump can be clearly heard promoting it on Fox News. This goes against every US Intelligence agency and helps Russia cover up the 2016 attack. trump's lies discredit US Intelligence agencies while helping Russia get away with an attack on the country he is president of. That is one example amongst dozens.
fpot
Posts: 26918
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Roger Stone a trump associate is (was) facing a 9 year prison term for committing 7 felonies with a maximum sentence at 20 years. trump lies, saying he has been harshly dealt with to the degree that the AG should get involved for a sentence reduction or possible pardon. Not lies, just harmless marketing spin.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39882
Location: Other International

The vast majority of the "lies" the fake news pulls Trump on are mere marketing "puff" (exaggeration) which the common law courts (and most grounded non-hysterical people) have realised is part and parcel of marketing, showmanship, hype and the general way the world spins. It's the way Trump worked before he came to office and he has stayed true to the game. He cries about the fake news like a soccer player or basketball player milks a foul. Sometimes you get a penalty sometimes you get penalised. it's all part of the game.
obviously you think this sort of behaviour is fine. I think it's fine in the boardroom (in the short term) where the only thing on the line is money. it's arguably the single worst thing about soccer

but in diplomacy it just seems like exactly the kind of brinkmanship that engenders a lack of trust amongst your ALLIES! it's bizarre. everyone has to walk on eggshells lest they be the recipient of a wrathful (childishly insulting) tweet. this might seem like "winning" in some circles but it's "winning" like your neighbours start avoiding you because you're a screamy shouty armed loon

what about his recent comments that the EU was created to treat the US badly? stuff like that which actual Americans who will watch that and think "huh, is THAT why the EU was founded! the more you know".
I am yet to see anything criminal or anti-American interests. Record unemployment; tarrifs on China; renegotiated NAFTA; no negative rates etc etc his SOTU speech was a great overvierw. USA is head and shoulder above every other country from an economic performance POV - and geopolitically- Trump annihilates the pathetic Obama positions.
not clear at all to me that everything is as rosy as it looks in the US economy. it is cushioned by the biggest bubble of corporate and government debt ever seen. I will find it hard to blame Trump if it blows up, any more than I give him any credit for the current state of affairs, because it seems like it more like a result of reckless financial policy that he is just taking advantage of

in terms of "geopolitically annihilating" blah blah blah, how do you feel about for e.g. the farming subsidies that have been handed out to bolster US ag because of the easily winnable trade war crushing their customer base? I am curious how you model victory in this scenario when everything the administration is doing is just plunging the nation into more debt than it's ever had before. I mean anyone can win the economy with free money. and I say this as someone that is generally cheerfully happy with ridiculous amounts of government spending and not opposed in principle to China tariffs (actually as noted above I want more on energy stuff)

as usual with anything economic it just seems like there are a lot of variables and you can look at any slice of it to give you the narrative you want. only time will tell if it's gonna pan out. if the debt bubble bursts or there is a bigger blip in international markets (lots of financial panthers I see losing their s*** over coronovirus, but it has the feel of them pushing short term pump and dump really) then we'll see what happens

it's one thing having a structural deficit with no hope of ever repaying, and another thing to tax someone at 90%.
I mean... is it? it seems like those two things are actually very closely linked. if you do the second strawman thing, you eliminate the first thing
infi
Posts: 24590
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

but in diplomacy it just seems like exactly the kind of brinkmanship that engenders a lack of trust amongst your ALLIES! it's bizarre. everyone has to walk on eggshells lest they be the recipient of a wrathful (childishly insulting) tweet. this might seem like "winning" in some circles but it's "winning" like your neighbours start avoiding you because you're a screamy shouty armed loon


This is a very interesting comment. Steve Bannon really puts it best. Trump is not a conservative, he's a populist. He doesn't give a s*** about the the EU or NATO or UN.

Trump is larger than life and follows a very predictable formula.

1. Show outrage at a specific issue.
2. Make exaggerated claim dramatisating the issue.
3. Attribute this failure to specific person or persons and disparage.
4. Make an exaggerated demand to fix the issue.
5. Make a number disparaging remarks about person when they cannot meet this demand.
6. Let minions negotiate the actual position.
7. Attend the official signing and photo of settled position, smiling and shaking hands.

e.g. the farming subsidies that have been handed out to bolster US ag


EU China and Japan are doing it, so I guess why not. Global trade is far from fair. Never has been. It would be better if no one subsidised agriculture, but at the same time, politicians do not want to have their heads cut off.

I will find it hard to blame Trump if it blows up, any more than I give him any credit for the current state of affairs, because it seems like it more like a result of reckless financial policy that he is just taking advantage of
don't disagree with you, but at least he hasn't put any lead in the saddlebags.

I mean... is it? it seems like those two things are actually very closely linked.


if Bernie gets in and implements punitive tax regimes USA will experience what France experienced with its puniutive tax rate, wealthy flee and the planned revenue severely undershoots. (However, just like the world did not end under Trump, nor will it under Bernie assuming there is some sort of Congress gridlock.)
PornoPete
Posts: 3941
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

but in diplomacy it just seems like exactly the kind of brinkmanship that engenders a lack of trust amongst your ALLIES! it's bizarre. everyone has to walk on eggshells lest they be the recipient of a wrathful (childishly insulting) tweet. this might seem like "winning" in some circles but it's "winning" like your neighbours start avoiding you because you're a screamy shouty armed loon


What's particularly interesting about that point is that whenever people talk about Trump's lack of statesmanship, it is virtually always glossed over that America's ALLIES have often been taking the piss, in some cases for decades. It would be nice to have an eloquent speaker, but for below it's more important to have an inarticulate speaker who actually forces the issue than an eloquent wet fish.

The UN would simply cease to exist without American money and military logistic support. It would be, to a greater extent than it already is, a high school debating club that stands around damning Israel.

As for NATO, until some can explain the logic in allowing Germany to neglect it's spending obligations in perpetuity *while* insisting on increasing its energy depence on, and enriching, the cheif geo-political rival NATO *was expressly formed to control*, Trump's rhetoric to this "ally" is completely justified.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39883
Location: Other International

This is a very interesting comment. Steve Bannon really puts it best. Trump is not a conservative, he's a populist. He doesn't give a s*** about the the EU or NATO or UN.
It is not clear he gives a s*** about anything but himself and to a lesser extent his family, cheerfully building a nepotist aristocratic dynasty in full view. Whether this benefits America in the long term is yet to be seen.
2. Make exaggerated claim dramatisating the issue.
it feels like an "exaggerated claim" to call his "exaggerated claims", "exaggerated claims". but I think you're on target with the rest. I don't think the negotiated positions in most of these cases are much better than they would have been through normal diplomacy and I reckon they're burning more bridges.
It would be better if no one subsidised agriculture, but at the same time, politicians do not want to have their heads cut off.
indeed. ag subsidies are an important (socialist) policy to provide food security.
don't disagree with you, but at least he hasn't put any lead in the saddlebags.
well, that's what I was asking - has the trade war been that lead? when it comes to who has the patience to prop up their economy the longest with taxpayer dollars to mitigate the effects, my money would be on China
if Bernie gets in and implements punitive tax regimes USA will experience what France experienced with its puniutive tax rate, wealthy flee and the planned revenue severely undershoots. (However, just like the world did not end under Trump, nor will it under Bernie assuming there is some sort of Congress gridlock.)
I am not sure this will happen for a few reasons:

1) America will still probably be a better place to be a gazillionaire. it's bigger, better developed, and has more (recent) history of catering to the ultra wealthy
2) American companies and aristocrats already have their wealth managed efficiently internationally. I think the actual real world impact of Bernie-ism will be hard to scratch the surface of this wealth any time soon & will only affect the next generation. which probably is fine but I suspect there might be a lot of disappointed Bernie/Warren voters when they find out it's gonna take 20 years for new policies to have an impact
3) the US is one of the few countries in the world that taxes its citizens when they live abroad. they already have the stuff set up in place to manage this process. obviously the ultra-wealthy already have processes in place to manage this and any tax they pay personally is functionally zero anyway but I think the fact that this mechanism exists would change the equation a little bit
PornoPete
Posts: 3942
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

well, that's what I was asking - has the trade war been that lead? when it comes to who has the patience to prop up their economy the longest with taxpayer dollars to mitigate the effects, my money would be on China


The trade war hurts China more than the US because the trade balance is so lopsided. They may have the will but it's doubtful they have the means.

But at this point I think we can move to disregarding trogs opinion altogether.

Firstly he now flat out says he doesn't inform himself of US News. But secondly a person saying the US debt situation is serious who then goes on to defend Bernie Sanders is profoundly unserious.

All the more so if you take the point that America's weathly will simply evade the proposed new taxes seriously. where does that leave the funding of tens of trillions of dollars of new spending? I mean its either going to be a broad based tax on the working and middle class like Sweden or its going to be debt.

But don't worry he will be able to tell infi that any policy which aids society is socialist for the millionth time, which is an idea so stupid it's not obvious it needs rebuttal. Capitalism helps people make societies, so capitalism must be socialist! OMG.

Maybe he can slip in another comment about believing in rule of law to a f***ing lawyer again.
PornoPete
Posts: 3943
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Moving forward it's going to be entertaining to watch more and more claims that Bernie Sanders isn't a real socialist.

For example here
Krugman saying he isn't a really real socialist. It's a twofa when you think about it. Not only is Krugman continuing to draw mountains of doubt on the worth of the Nobel prize for economics, he is trying to say a man who was literally a member of the Trotskyite Socialist Workers Party, isn't a socialist.

I remember watching a friendly jordies video before the UK elections where he tried to say a *life long self identified Marxist* wasn't a "socialist".
Nmag
Posts: 1264
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Has someone pointed out a successful implementation of Socialism in a nation yet? or is Vash and fpot still dreaming?

https://thefederalist.com/2019/06/25/socialism-didnt-work-in-sweden-and-it-wont-work-in-america/


fpot
Posts: 26919
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Did you deliberately find the weakest bulls*** you can find from the most obvious junk news conspiracy numpty website you can find because you thought it might make me reflexively defend a position I've never held?
PornoPete
Posts: 3944
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It’s time to give the elites a bigger say in choosing the president.

Julia Azari is an associate professor and assistant chair in the Department of Political Science at Marquette University. This is the third op-ed in a series about how to improve the presidential nominating process.



Mmm is so rich and tasty. If you wanted a hyper concentration of why Trump is going to win there you have it.

What's *so amazing* about it is that the headline expressly advocating for less democratic primaries is right below wapos "democracy dies in dementia" tag line.

Putting aside its another article in the genre "process X makes democrats look bad so process X is bad", it's a golden example of how these people are simply incapable of thinking how their words read outside the carefully curated bubble.
infi
Posts: 24591
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The Democrat primary is laughable and shows just how failed their party has become. They don't stand for anything other than a smattering of leftist fringe issues. I have never heard a Democrat contender talk about working class or blue collar issues.
fpot
Posts: 26920
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

If only they could have become the corruption ridden autocracy that the GOP has become. The Democratic party is indeed failing. It's withering away in the face of an unbridled assault on democracy that no-one was prepared for. It seems obvious now - put measures in place for when a president and now a party go completely rogue and start ignoring things like the truth, justice, integrity and accountability. Instead the accused are the ones who determine their own guilt. Because every person who downplays, defends or supports trump's actions is culpable in this. It's going to be an utter f***ing horror show if he's "elected" again. They'll never recover from it. infi wants this to happen for some reason.

I have never heard a Democrat contender talk about working class or blue collar issues.
watch as the well-trained little doggy lies just like his master. No wait let me guess, harmless marketing spin?
PornoPete
Posts: 3945
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yep the democrat party is failing because Trump. Got it.

Trump made it so democrats can't count votes.
Of course, there's the fact that lefties are a bit funny about accepting the outcome of votes recently aren't they? For example
It's going to be an utter f***ing horror show if he's "elected" again. They'll never recover from it. infi wants this to happen for some reason.
elected in scare quote lol.
Best part is this dribbling retard has the temerity to accuse others of believing propaganda.
watch as the well-trained little doggy lies just like his master. No wait let me guess, harmless marketing spin?


I mean there's really f***ing dumb, and then there's this.

Elizabeth "dances with tenure" Warren said she'll give a teenage trans person a veto of her appointment of an education secretary I'm sure Detroit Auto workers were all nodding and saying "well its about time".
Vash
Posts: 6221
Location:

He was right on one thing, his dumb as dogs*** supporters would still vote for him if he shot someone on fifth avenue.

Apparently Infi hasnt heard of Bernie Sanders.
infi
Posts: 24592
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The Democrat party will never let Bernie be nominee. Hate to break it to ya pal. Back to washing your pile of Che Guevara shirts.

Supporting Bernie because he has principles, is like supporting China because they have principles.

now in fpot's world elections are "elections". it's only a proper election if my guy wins.... Zzzzzzz
PornoPete
Posts: 3946
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Back to washing your pile of Che Guevara shirts.


Pfft the revolution doesn't recognise the verb "to wash". They are merely differently soiled, and that's mummy's job anyways.
Nmag
Posts: 1265
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

fpot, you dispute the claims in the article?

The new generation raised in socialism had no incentives to work. The once healthy population began calling in sick because of the generous benefits for sick days. They shamelessly accepted the public benefits that their hardworking parents once despised.

Sweden not only fell from being the 4th richest country to the 14th richest country, but its very nature as a country changed. An authoritarian-like government was necessary to ensure the population did not abuse its welfare system. Sweden’s democracy was sliding into a dictatorship, and the Swedish people were not pleased.

The system began crashing after debt-fueled inflation in the ’80s. The ’90s were stained with a massive economic crisis. Banks were on the brink of collapse and, for a brief moment, the Central Bank had 500 percent interest rates to defend the Swedish currency.

Sweden agreed that socialism was not working. In fact, it was a disaster.

“Some of the government’s programs were unsustainable, some of the policies were absurd, and the tax system was perverse,” Norberg said quoting a Swedish Social Democratic finance minister.

The 30-year experiment “was a brief interlude of failure,” Norberg said. To reform and save its economy, Sweden reverted back to its capitalist structure. It reduced public spending by a third, demolished taxes on property and inheritance, and reduced taxes in other areas. Defined benefits were cut and only defined contributions were permitted.

The system became partially privatized with privately-owned accounts. The markets became opened to private providers and private companies who contributed to institutions like healthcare and schools. Sweden also deregulated markets to cause a surge in entrepreneurship.

Swedish healthcare became regionally run and funded by local state tax. Overconsumption had created long hospital lines depriving those with urgent needs of immediate attention. These kinds of inefficiencies of the universal programs caused Sweden to open to more private companies.


Or is that "not the socialism you want".. and your still searching for the successful implementation that you want to have once you have your revolution?
fpot
Posts: 26921
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Holy s*** you're dumb Nmag.

now in fpot's world elections are "elections". it's only a proper election if my guy wins.... Zzzzzzz
The 2016 US election was attacked by Russia. The attack was to create a miasma of disinformation in an attempt to elect trump. Russia knew that trump was a bumbling, amoral career criminal who would bring the same incompetence to the presidency that he had in squandering his inheritance. trump assisted them in this attack and then commited crimes covering up this assistance. trump has also sought foreign interference in the upcoming election. It would be utterly foolish to assume that Russia aren't attacking this election like they did the last one. So yeah, "election".
PornoPete
Posts: 3947
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So Hillary didn't win the popular vote?

You don't get to pick and choose the invalid "election" facts.

Either it's wholly invalid or it's not.

Don't forget "attack" is an irregular verb in fpot english. The infinitive is "to post Facebook memes".
PornoPete
Posts: 3948
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

https://i.postimg.cc/zGs4VdXM/ERPMJEs-UUAE3-EPG.jpg
OMG the RUSSIANS are creating a miasma of disinformation to make Mike Bloomberg seem like a porn star and he won't win the election because of it and Trump helped and covered up that he helped and got his attorney general to help and help to cover it up and sought the help of a Nigerian prince who keeps trying to sell me Viagra.
Nmag
Posts: 1266
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

fpot hysterical fantasy brought on by TDS. Did you want the Clinton machine? You can't really have been hoping for Bernie?

A debate review.

https://youtu.be/cecXmZS8gAM

Classic:

“The best known socialist in this country (America) is a millionaire and has 3 houses” #berniegettinburned
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2353
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

https://i.imgur.com/vwUr1hZ.pnghttps://i.redd.it/5m5kynhllp7y.jpg
PornoPete
Posts: 3949
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Doesn't return of the Jedi end with an old guy getting electrocuted to death?

So your saying Bernie will be killed by a defribulator ;)
dazedandconfused
Posts: 825
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I don't think I've ever seen a bigger cuck meme than that one.

You support a guy who railed against the existence of millionaires until he became one then it became solely billionaires. He was also kicked out of a commune because he was a sophist and didn't do any work, as evidenced by the fact that Bloomberg of all people can humiliate him and his ill-gotten wealth.

Can someone name a single Bernie achievement? Can someone name one job Bernie has created that wasn't due to a Congressional appropriation?
taggs
Posts: 6614
Location:

Fpot, assuming all of that is true - what do you reckon Russia has today under Trump that they wouldn't have had under Clinton?

Agree with you on that game of the decade thread re fo:nv btw.
fpot
Posts: 26923
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

If I were to say just one thing it would be that by weakening the US they've also weakened her allies and hence NATO. Major nations like Germany, France the UK etc can no longer rely on the US being a rational actor on the world stage which significantly compromises their position. The exact reason why Russia would look to weaken NATO I don't know except that it makes Russia stronger. In a more general sense the US is Russia's main rival and having trump at the helm more or less leaves the country leaderless. This has a wide range of effects which I'm sure I don't need to go into because we're all witnessing them.

There is no way of knowing exactly why Russia are doing this it could be for literally hundreds of different reasons. However we do know that Russia launched a sophisticated attack on the 2016 US Election and from all accounts it seems as though they're at it again but don't say that too loud or you might get fired.
PornoPete
Posts: 3950
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

It has been nearly four years and fpot has never linked to the actual "sophisticated attack".

Here is what internet research agency was posting to Facebook.https://i.postimg.cc/cL2fwjrV/ERUMvvj-Wo-AAR00k.pnghttps://i.postimg.cc/wBFHSKLr/ERUL0-Te-W4-AAWX0-Y.png

This was the attack. Remember also *in four years* fpot has explained exactly how Trump helped Russia conduct these "sophisticated attacks" exactly zero times. Zero.

And if you think I'm exaggerating. Here is a so called Pulitzer prize news outlet fact checking whether there was *really* 20 seconds silence after a Bloomberg claim in the dem debate. They do not fact check his actual claim *once*.

If I were to say just one thing it would be that by weakening the US they've also weakened her allies and hence NATO. Major nations like Germany, France the UK etc can no longer rely on the US being a rational actor on the world stage which significantly compromises their position. The exact reason why Russia would look to weaken NATO I don't know except that it makes Russia stronger. In a more general sense the US is Russia's main rival and having trump at the helm more or less leaves the country leaderless. This has a wide range of effects which I'm sure I don't need to go into because we're all witnessing them.


As for this retarded hot mess.

Get the middle aged gold coast bouncer with a "deep understanding" of geopolitics to explain how the United States insisting it's allies in a millitary alliance meet their military spending obligations *weakens* NATO and strengthens Russia. In fpot land insisting Germany *increase its military spending to.the level it freely agreed to pay* is Germany "can no longer rely on the US being a rational actor on the world stage which significantly compromises their position".

Then get the middle aged gold coast bouncer with a "deep understanding" of geopolitics to explain how placing sanctions on Russian oil exports to western Europe weakens NATO and strengthens Russia. Also get knucklehead to explain how Germany relying on Russia for energy security helps NATO.

Because that's is the sum total of what we've witnessed under Trump.
infi
Posts: 24593
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Sophisticated hacking aka running a few Facebook memes. Also: 4chan tried to hack the US election..
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39884
Location: Other International

what do you reckon Russia has today under Trump that they wouldn't have had under Clinton?
Maybe nothing tangible. Clinton would have been despised by roughly the same percentage of Americans (pretty obviously), but she would not have been as actively disruptive in anywhere near the same way. Ignoring his blaming of the Democrats for literally everything, Trump goes out of his way to alienate entire chunks of the population, just to score a few points with the sort of people that find totally obnoxious behaviour endearing as long as it's dumping on someone/something they don't like.

It is almost purely divisive behaviour (in many cases indistinguishable from exactly the kind of thing trolls paid to troll do).

So to answer your question, I think Russia has helped achieve the creation of an America in which many, many more segments of the population - not just Ds and Rs - feel like they are constantly at each other's throats, simply because of the behaviour of the president. It feels unprecedented (unpresidented?) to be in this situation, watching the leader of an ostensibly free country screaming and carrying on at up to 50% of the population at a time.

Hypothetical back at you:

Let's say Trump (against all odds) loses the upcoming election to a Democrat.

What do you think the chances are that he will make subtle (unlikely) or overt comments to the effect that the election was rigged? What do you think the chances are that he would float the idea of violent insurrection being required to stop such an injustice? Does anyone think he would go gracefully into the night? WHAT WOULD HE SAY?

I think an actual civil war is astronomically unlikely as an outcome, but certainly I fear that there are enough people that would buy into that narrative for there to be loss of life.

I have been worrying about this for months and have been too scared to even write it down because it's such a horrible thought that a political leader of the US would actively encourage its citizens to fight against its own institutions in that way. But he has done it at every opportunity. I am more worried now that he will LOSE.
Nmag
Posts: 1267
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I have been worrying about this for months and have been too scared to even write it down because it's such a horrible thought ...


TDS. Now with added imagination.

https://thehustle.co/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/trump_og_image.jpg
PornoPete
Posts: 3951
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Oh a lecture in not accepting the outcome of elections from a Hilary supporter.

Hey here is a hypothetical. Well actually a simple factual statement of reality but anyway...

What damage do you think retards like fpot refusing to accept the outcome of elections, inspector general reports, special council reports, the legitimacy of the electoral college, the supreme Court, the Democrat party primaries, the senate and according to Pelosi the outcome of impeachment trials might be having on "faith in institutions".

Or better yet the now proven case that the FBI perjured itself in a secret court to spy on a presidential campaign. What damage do you reckon that brainwave did to "faith in institutions".

It's pretty hard to take Trump is attacking institutions seriously from you people.

As for Russia spread divisiveness. Step us through how they made the democrats adopt identity politics which insists over 60% of the population was born with original sin.

When we had the gay marriage debate here and fpot called hardware a piece of s*** because he was thinking of voting against it. Was that the Russians, or is that just how leftist talk to people and you're fine with it.
Vash
Posts: 6222
Location:

The scary Socialist seems to be doing well.
infi
Posts: 24594
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The scary Socialist seems to be doing well.


*Measures deaths by socilaism*

Yep
Vash
Posts: 6223
Location:

Sounds like you're coming down with a case of BDS, Bernie deranged syndrome. This is going to be fun.
PornoPete
Posts: 3952
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yep the millionaire socialist with no significant legislative achievements in 30 years of public life who is promising to remake the economy from the ground up will definitely win.

Bernie has never been tested outside the bubble.

I look forward to him replicating Corbyn's effort.

Just to give a single touch stone among *thousands*.

Here is Bernie saying free college is a right illegal immigrants should enjoy.

in which Bernie commits electoral suicide.

To get some context on that no more than 30% of Americans have college degrees.

Good luck getting 70% of Americans to provide free college education to people who have no right to be in the USA when they don't get it.

Yet somehow he doesn't get grilled on this insane bulls*** by democrats. Trump will eat this sad little man alive.
Nmag
Posts: 1268
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

It's going to be funny if Bernie gets in, and it's going to be funny if Trump gets a 2nd term. We can't lose.
infi
Posts: 24595
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

PP just get Colleges to build more colleges at gunpoint. Boom.
PornoPete
Posts: 3953
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I see his strategy for Florida is coming together nicely.

State that almost always goes to the elected president has a large population of Jews and Cuban refugees.

So Sanders attacks AIPAC and praises Castro.

IT'S 400D CHESS BIGOTS!
system
--
Not a new post since your last visit.
New Post Since your last visit
Page: < 1 2 3 4 >
Back To Forum
Advertise with Us | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
© Copyright 2001-2020 AusGamers Pty Ltd. ACN 093 772 242.
Hosted by Mammoth Networks - Australian VPS Hosting
Web development by Mammoth Media.