top_left top_right
bottom_left
Next Event: Unknown | Forum Rules | QGL Website | Event Registration
openFolder AusForums.com
iconwatfolderLineopenFolder LANs
iconwatfolderLineopenFolder QGL
iconwatfolderLineopenFolder QGL Forum
Author
Topic: Political Thread 2.5 (Because we really haven't made any pro... Page: < 1 2 3 4 ... 8 9 10 11 >
fpot
Posts: 26075
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

8000 :P
PornoPete
Posts: 2815
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

oh that is cheap ;)
FaceMan
Posts: 12916
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I propose not all be allow to breed, and some be sterilised.

Abortion and Contraception have already done a good job of that
Now we have to import people.

If it wasnt for those ppl that You think shouldnt breed we would need to import even more people. Maybe you like importing people who follow a pedo-friendly - wife beating, homo murdering, honor killing Religion ?

Me, Id rather poor white trash have kids and lots of them.
Because... We were here first.

trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39248
Location: Other International

wow. someone wrote something dumber than nmag's post.
Nmag
Posts: 848
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Encouraging failed communities
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7737
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Me, Id rather poor white trash have kids and lots of them.
Because... We were here first.


ermm aren't you forgetting the aboriginal nations that have been here for 40,000 yrs?
FaceMan
Posts: 12917
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
its just as relevant an excuse Slaps.

People complain about Immigration but they dont ever complain about why its needed. We dont make enough people. 100 000 years and we achieved making less people.



Zapo
Posts: 3411
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Isn't it the lazy way to 'grow' the economy? More people = more stuff needed = stronger economy? Although, it no doubt leads to income inequality.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7739
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
^ Yep.

The real point is the Government is lazy. They see turning on the immigration tap as an easy fix for the economy.

They just turn on tap and don't plan. Hence, why Sydney and Melbourne are so packed.

Wouldn't it make sense to encourage migrants to go to smaller satellite cities and build those up first?
Vash
Posts: 5563
Location:

Birthrates of Australians are down, that's partly why we need more immigration to maintain & grow the population as well as the economy.
People want to live in cities, and there has been incentives to get more people moving to regional areas, but you can't force them to.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7740
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Why is endless growth a priority?

Japanese population is in decline but their economy hasn't broken down - so why?
Insom
Posts: 4630
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

^ presumably so there'll be someone to pay for all the old farts' pensions
fpot
Posts: 26076
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Are you Tdog, Nmag?
Vash
Posts: 5564
Location:

Why is endless growth a priority?


That's how you keep Capitalism functioning.

Japanese population is in decline but their economy hasn't broken down - so why?


The effects of an aging population have yet to fully hit them as yet. It will though.
Nmag
Posts: 849
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

You throw a party in your backyard. Do you let just about anyone in, or do you have some form of preferred criteria?
Vash
Posts: 5565
Location:

You have a country. Do you let just about anyone in, or do you have some form of preferred criteria?


The latter is already in effect. Not sure what your point is? We don't have an open border policy
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7741
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

That's how you keep Capitalism functioning.


So by that logic, India should be an economic utopia
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39249
Location: Other International

Isn't it the lazy way to 'grow' the economy? More people = more stuff needed = stronger economy? Although, it no doubt leads to income inequality.
It is /not/ just about "more people". It is about the /right/ people.

This is the most important thing the "f*** off we're full" dopes are missing (aside from the fact that we live in a staggeringly huge mostly empty country). If we want to develop industries faster, we need to bring in outside expertise. If we want to be competitive on a global scale, we need a way to bring those experts to us. (By the way, something like 70% of immigrants are skilled, with 40% of them being brought over by their company. )

You throw a party in your backyard. Do you let just about anyone in, or do you have some form of preferred criteria?
I'm happy to hear that, because it means (as Vash notes) you should be perfectly content with the current state of affairs
Wouldn't it make sense to encourage migrants to go to smaller satellite cities and build those up first?
They kind of do - there is a regional immigration scheme which takes up about 7% of the total # of immigrants. I imagine it is a very delicate balancing act because smaller cities are more "fragile" and less able to deal with larger influxes. But I agree that spreading them out is a good idea. I actually think regional growth is one of the most important things we can be doing anyway & we should be trying to get actual Australians out there just as urgently.

Anyway. I'm pro strong border controls and immigration controls. But listening to Radio Moscow everywhere trying to make us deathly scared of all immigration all the time as a blanket policy is stupid. We need to bring outside expertise to grow our industries (particularly in high tech & engineering) because growing them ourselves will take too long. Sometimes we'll also need to bring in just regular people because we might open a new mine or something that requires a large number of people that can't be found on short notice. The government isn't just bringing in these people because they're deathly scared we're running out of citizens; they're doing it because they're vital liquidity in the engine that makes our country work. Finding the right balance is tough.
Phooks
Posts: 3253
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

f*** Off We're Full, Unless You're A Billionaire, Or Millionaire, Or A Skilled Worker, Or Contribute To Our Massive International Student, Trade And Tourism Industries, Or Cause Greater Cultural Links With Developing Nations That Will Prove Useful For Growing International Strategic Military And Geopolitical Relations, But Definitely DEFINITELY NOT The Enrichment Of Our Cultural Diversity In General Because That Is Straight-Up Liberal-Arts-f*****y s***, I Mean Did You See Our G20 Cultural Celebrations I Mean Wow We Are Just Exploding With Culture Already.

A.k.a. f*** Those Lazy Foreigners Taking Our Land & Jobs.

A.k.a. I wan't the Australian economy to be competitive, but I don't want to actually compete in it.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2152
Location: Sydney, New South Wales



So by that logic, India should be an economic utopia

Well GDP growth over the past 20 years in india is exponential.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39253
Location: Other International

India is (IMO) the single most interesting economic market in the world today, not just because of recent growth but because the huge changes the current leadership is going for. Big shift to digital to get away from cash corruption, rebuilding their financial frameworks.. big stuff. A democratic population of a billion people being dragged out of the third world though a stronger (most western style, if you like) commercial framework is going to be a big deal.
PornoPete
Posts: 2816
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Noted Japanese american white supremacist touts the white supremacist line Asian Americans out perform whites in white supremacist america. Only reasonable conclusion is that he is a nazi white supremacist. This is based on the flawless logic that similar research has been quoted on pro trump web forums.

I think I'm getting the hang of this fpot. If you say white supremacist enough times, its like its true.
paveway
Posts: 21380
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

anyone else enjoying the "clean coal" propaganda ad's that have been on tv for a while now?
Viper119
Posts: 3324
Location: Other International


So Antifa learning how to defeat fascism by becoming fascists, it's too much! https://www.buzzfeed.com/katetalerico/from-gym-to-gun-range-heres-where-antifa-train?utm_term=.rhwKnmK8pj#.tq62qn2vYK

Also thought this was on topic for you trog: The Russian Troll Farm that Weaponised Facebook had American Boots on the Ground



Pretty interesting:

Though most Russian efforts unveiled thus far seem to have been aimed at weaponizing the far right, the existence of BlackMattersUS indicates Russian agents were equally motivated to infiltrate the far left in order to amplify partisan divides that would simultaneously energize Trump's base and disillusion Hillary's. Last month, the Daily Beast reported that the same group of Russian agents that organized pro-Trump rallies in the U.S. also impersonated a U.S.-based Muslim nonprofit organization for more than one year on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, in an attempt to fuel divisions. Evidence linking those efforts directly to the Kremlin is mounting; U.S. officials believe that Yevgeny Prigozhin, a Russian oligarch with close ties to Russian President Vladimir Putin, owns a company that is believed to provide financial support for the Internet Research Agency.


The Russians have aced this in the Ukraine and are no doubt doing it in the Baltics, all part of their new 'hybrid warfare' doctrine it seems. Amazing that they've managed to execute it in the US and are probably doing it in other Western countries. It was proven that Putin financed Le Pen in France.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39263
Location: Other International

Also thought this was on topic for you trog: The Russian Troll Farm that Weaponised Facebook had American Boots on the Ground
nice one. I have long been suspicious about antifa being paid Russian agitators or right wing false flaggers anyway :D

It's amazing how much impact a few bucks can have when things are on a big of a knife's edge
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7743
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
anyone else enjoying the "clean coal" propaganda ad's that have been on tv for a while now?


Yep, it's pathetic. There's no such thing as 'clean coal plants'. Typical industry weasel wording.

However, there are the next gen super critical coal plants that are more efficient.

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 22:04:24 20/Oct/17
PornoPete
Posts: 2817
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I have long been suspicious about antifa being paid Russian agitators or right wing false flaggers anyway :D


Well shucks trog I guess the haymaker collective in the fawing buzzfeed piece directly above it must be a bunch of russian funded plants. Nothing says responsible journalism like comparing that to a jewish boxing club in italy in 1938.

But wait, maybe buzzfeed are Russian plants. I mean they *refuse* to condemn antifa and there is now "mounting" evidence antifa are Russian plants. just to make that leap a little higher for you trump refuses to condemn Putin is the catch cry of the collusion crowd.

Russia maybe exploiting something, but there has to be something to exploit. there are real problems in western political thought at the moment.

Here is hero of the moment Macron.


That is true. You can anticipate and plan everything, but when you actually experience it, it's different. For me, my office isn't first and foremost a political or technical one. Rather, it is symbolic. I am a strong believer that modern political life must rediscover a sense for symbolism. We need to develop a kind of political heroism. I don't mean that I want to play the hero. But we need to be amenable once again to creating grand narratives. If you like, post-modernism was the worst thing that could have happened to our democracy. The idea that you have to deconstruct and destroy all grand narratives is not a good one. Since then, trust has evaporated in everything and everyone. I am sometimes surprised that it is the media that are the first ones to exhibit a lack of trust in grand narratives. They believe that destroying something is part of their journalistic purpose because something grand must inevitably contain an element of evil. Critique is necessary, but where does this hate for the so-called grand narrative come from?


My emphasis. I wonder if there is a parallel between "creating grand narratives" and "make amercia great again"?

Left wing politics has been close to completely consumed by post-modernism. Who'd have thought a valueless nihilistic political theory would be ripe for exploitation? probably anyone with two brain cells to rub together. Russia didn't force anyone to adopt such a s***ful philosophy, though they were probably rubbing their hands together watching it take hold.
FaceMan
Posts: 12918
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
https://i.imgur.com/ppchjPm.jpg
Tollaz0r!
Posts: 18474
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Being Black in America is like playing 'The Game Of Life' on Hard mode. Yeah, choices can make a difference, it's a lot harder though for an average Black person vs an average White person. Surely you must understand that right?
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39266
Location: Other International

Yes Faceman, that is indeed a great example of exactly the kind of propaganda spread by Russian trolls to try to "with the aim of fomenting divisions in the US"! Nice find.
Nmag
Posts: 851
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Being Black in America is like playing 'The Game Of Life' on Hard mode. Yeah, choices can make a difference, it's a lot harder though for an average Black person vs an average White person. Surely you must understand that right?


Why don't they move to a nation (not city/suburb) with less white people and not deal with the competition whites introduce into their lives? Maybe some do?
PornoPete
Posts: 2818
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yes Faceman, that is indeed a great example of exactly the kind of propaganda spread by Russian trolls to try to "with the aim of fomenting divisions in the US"! Nice find.


Not according to vipers vanity fair article trog my sweet. *russian* trolls try to look as much like black lives matter as possible. I'm sure you read the article carefully.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39267
Location: Other International

I don't know s*** about NZ politics but new leadership is making a lot of waves. My FB contacts (n=3) seem divided, but it seems like doing referendums is the in thing to do now: "Ms Ardern said on Friday — after her election victory was confirmed — that New Zealand would hold a referendum on whether to legalise recreational marijuana use within three years."
Vash
Posts: 5566
Location:


Fresh change from the new NZ PM.
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/10/homelessness-proves-capitalism-is-a-blatant-failure-jacinda-ardern.html


trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39269
Location: Other International

Oh. Maybe she is a bit weird. From the article: "If you have hundreds of thousands of children living in homes without enough to survive, that's a blatant failure. What else could you describe it as?"

I mean I can think of lots of things to describe it as. I find it hard to believe NZ has "hundreds of thousands" of homeless children that don't have enough to survive. Not clear from context what she is talking about.
Vash
Posts: 5567
Location:

I think she means more world wide, which is more like in the millions.
Phooks
Posts: 3254
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Ms Ardern said her Government wouldn't measure economic success just on things like GDP.

"The measures for us have to change. We need to make sure we are looking at people's ability to actually have a meaningful life, an enjoyable life, where their work is enough to survive and support their families."

The Government's first move would be to introduce its families package, followed by writing child poverty reduction targets into law.


Disgusting. What about the ECONOMY!? The DEBT!?$?!
PornoPete
Posts: 2819
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

watch out phooks has been drinking and gotten triggered again.

I think she means more world wide, which is more like in the millions.


Dude you should be on the stage. There should be a prize for unintentional comedy. Capitalism has failed world wide because the global homeless total runs into the millions. gold.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7745
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I'd hit that new Kiwi PM
PornoPete
Posts: 2820
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Black man argues white liberals over use "white supremacist" and "racist" on CNN.

Just another white supremacist with internalized white supremacy preaching to the white supremacists on a white supremacist news outlet I say. and he is racist.
FaceMan
Posts: 12919
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Crooked Billary - Lock Him Up

http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/pm-turnbull-cant-completely-distance-himself-from-the-swoop-on-awu-offices/news-story/2ea32a242159448f59b3c1a3dda04275

Insom
Posts: 4631
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

breaking news - unions donate to the ALP
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2153
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

It is hilarious how desperate Libs are to shut down getup. Meanwhile the IPA is fine.
Spook
Posts: 40838
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Well mr barnaby and others gave just been deemed inelligble for parliment.

Very interdesting
ravn0s
Posts: 19148
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
bye bye baaahhnarby.
deadlyf
Posts: 4060
Location: Queensland

I reckon the Libs knew this was coming, hence the stupid political stunts they pulled yesterday. He should have been stood down when the investigation started.

This could get messy if they retroactively go back and remove the ineligible votes from the Senate and House of Reps.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2154
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Facedad gone too!
paveway
Posts: 21390
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

awwww nooo brew
PornoPete
Posts: 2821
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

I've not read the judgement yet, but matt canavan was spared the axe. It'll be interesting to see what limitations the court placed on the application of s 44.
deadlyf
Posts: 4061
Location: Queensland

So when are we going to see Barnaby arrested for defrauding the electorate? How much has he made while being ineligible for his position?

I'm sure he claims it was an innocent mistake but it's not like the government goes easy on people when they make innocent mistakes on their taxes and this is far more serious than that.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2155
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


I've not read the judgement yet, but matt canavan was spared the axe. It'll be interesting to see what limitations the court placed on the application of s 44.

ABC had some quick points on why things panned out the way they did re the judgements per MP.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-27/citizenship-seven-rulings-winners-and-losers/9050222
Vash
Posts: 5568
Location:

Roberts is gooooneski, best day in politics for ages.
PornoPete
Posts: 2822
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Cheers,

I think I'll sift through the judgment. Joyce's case is somewhat more complex than it seems. He should have renounced, it's a pretty inexcusable oversight. But when he came to Australia I'm not sure "Australian citizenship" was a thing or "New Zealand" citizenship for that matter.

Its a hang up of the British empire, but because NZ and Aus were domains of the crown everyone was just a British citizen. I expect this will all be dealt with in detail in the judgment, but I'm not sure he ever applied for citizenship to Australia (but he is a citizen).
Spook
Posts: 40840
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
how the f*** did roberts get elected in the first place?
PornoPete
Posts: 2823
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

proportional voting is a hell of a drug
FaceMan
Posts: 12920
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Dad will be back, hes going to run in the QLD State in Hansons Ipswich area.
currently Labor seats.

Matt Canavan is back
he is anti-Blackouts and very popular in QLD country.

Viper119
Posts: 3326
Location: Other International

I read somewhere that Joyce can just renounce his New Zealand citizenship then stand for election again, which he's expected to win?

Great to see Roberts gone, what a joke he is.
PornoPete
Posts: 2824
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

from the horses mouth for those interested.
Scooter
Posts: 6608
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I read somewhere that Joyce can just renounce his New Zealand citizenship then stand for election again, which he's expected to win?


Correct. Which is what he has said he plans to do.
Insom
Posts: 4632
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

good thing Waters and Ludlam were among those ruled against or they'd have really felt like a pair of tits for quitting
deadlyf
Posts: 4062
Location: Queensland

I read somewhere that Joyce can just renounce his New Zealand citizenship then stand for election again, which he's expected to win?
He already has renounced, I think they all did as soon as they found out.

Him winning isn't a foregone conclusion though, bi-elections are very different than a national affair. Most people usually vote for a party rather than specifically for their local candidate during a national election but for a bi-election the candidates are a lot more exposed. Joyce will probably still win though, having a party leader as the member for your area brings a lot of benefits, an independent holding the balance of power would bring just as much if not more but I'm not sure there is a worthy opponent now that Windsor has bowed out.

Labor could also end up throwing up a legal challenge or two.
anonymousxvi
Posts: 27
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Have you ever considered that the way society is structured is the problem
Phooks
Posts: 3255
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Have you ever considered that the way society is structured is the problem
There is no reason to think the way society is structured is in any way a problem.

Really we just need to lower taxes and less government. Pretty simple.

Also run government like a business.

Also less muslimsimmigrants.
PornoPete
Posts: 2825
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

oh a link to a vox article that says society has to change. and a guardian article.

Phooks is triggered again.
Phooks
Posts: 3256
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

lol is that the best you got? bit of a broken record at this point

I wonder, do you have any principles at all? Or do you just do believe what authority tells you to at any given moment. Maybe tell us why inequality is a good thing hey
FaceMan
Posts: 12921
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
If I was Equally-challenged I would do something about it myself, not rely on Government to help me because:
The NBN
The Gas Crisis
The Electricity Grid
Indian made Trains that wont fit on QLD tracks
Desal Plants
any Policy that Malcolm Turnbull has touched
Ceiling Bats
Gonski
$50 billion Subs that are Diesal but require Nuclear Power so they wont work.
Murray River Water disaster
..and you want Government to make you wealthy ?

maybe you should try voting for the other guy ?
One Nation Tsunami coming

lead us to The Promised Land Mum and Dad

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/3c0e93d6b69c261f0d4e22e0be6d04b4
Phooks
Posts: 3257
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Vash
Posts: 5569
Location:

These officials must dread every questioning by One Nation senators. My god they are so dumb.
PornoPete
Posts: 2826
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

lol is that the best you got? bit of a broken record at this point


Is that self referential? Because you've never done anything other than what you're doing. You quote some mindless liberal article and then scream some epitaph you think sum up anyone who doesn't vote green left.

I wonder, do you have any principles at all? Or do you just do believe what authority tells you to at any given moment. Maybe tell us why inequality is a good thing hey


Maybe tell us why its a bad thing? OR the more interesting question, what lengths would you be willing to go to see everyone exactly equal? Because the overwhelming evidence of history shows unequivocally that an exactly equal outcome society is a nightmare realized.

But here is the thing phooks. I'd rather be a pragmatist than highfalutin "principled" hypocrite like you.

I doubt you actually have any principles you've actually thought about with any depth. You're position on every topic you mentioned can be neatly summed by regurgitating a guardian article on the topic. I've never seen you or fpot or vash offer an opinion that isn't the company line not one. infi's opinion on issues is less predictable than all three of you combined.

But enough responding to the cheap bait. You're triggered.

My god they are so dumb.


Yeah but you're dumber.
anonymousxvi
Posts: 28
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
wrong phooks the whole money system is a self-sustaining failure. stop trying to repair what is broken we need a new system. if the root cause of the problem isn't addressed the problem remains simple as that.
Phooks
Posts: 3258
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

enough responding to the cheap bait. You're triggered.
responding to the cheap bait
triggered

lol

the overwhelming evidence of history shows unequivocally that an exactly equal outcome society is a nightmare realized.


This quote is as close as you've ever come to realising what you really stand for PP. I do encourage you to reflect on it.

wrong phooks the whole money system is a self-sustaining failure


Would you mind explaining? I must assume this comes from some sort of conspiracy theory, or even a basic failing of economic understanding which is very forgivable. Monetary policy is pretty well academically documented and both neo-cons and neo-libs generally have decent economic modelling behind their policies and taxes/rates. What do you mean by 'root cause'? Currency itself? Fiat systems? If your problem is with things like the reserve bank (ala mentioned in pop-conspiracy theories), and you think the solution lies in things like cryptocurrency, I would encourage you to do research about the origins and development of currency itself. I think the economist(?) did a piece about how Bitcoin is fiat money. What is your alternative to the root cause?
Zenmaster
Posts: 38
Location: Queensland

[quote]wrong phooks the whole money system is a self-sustaining failure. stop trying to repair what is broken we need a new system. if the root cause of the problem isn't addressed the problem remains simple as that.[/quote]


the new system/s is already there.


just like politics, it's a waiting game to see how the mob adapts


this is money - it's not rocket science. Look around


the lowest common denominator always wins out
Vash
Posts: 5570
Location:

This quote is as close as you've ever come to realising what you really stand for PP. I do encourage you to reflect on it.


Yeah it shows in all his posts.
FaceMan
Posts: 12922
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
So when are you guys heading across the ditch to New Venezuela ?

PornoPete
Posts: 2827
Location: Melbourne, Victoria


This quote is as close as you've ever come to realising what you really stand for PP. I do encourage you to reflect on it.


Triggered again mate. f***en hell been drinken too?

I encourage you to think on it because you clearly haven't and I'm right. Perfect equality of outcome has been repeatedly proven to be a nightmare.

Venezuelans can all "equally" not afford to buy food now. Like the chinese cubans and russians before them.

But here is a real chesnut for you, you driveling moron.

Which are you really for?

Diversity or equality.

You can't have both. They are irreconcilable concepts. Diversity *requires* inequality in some dimensions.

Yeah it shows in all his posts.

Gee there is no show without dumb c*** is there. Here comes Vash. Independent thought is over rated you f***ing peasant.
Vash
Posts: 5571
Location:

f***en hell
dumb c***
f***ing peasant


There it is. Triggered.
PornoPete
Posts: 2828
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Type what you see vash.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7749
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
^^ Lol

Vash 1
FaceMan
Posts: 12923
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
https://i.imgur.com/D2OIoKt.jpg


last edited by FaceMan at 13:39:02 30/Oct/17
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39280
Location: Other International

it's like looking into a mirror
infi
Posts: 23808
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

the stubble is a nice touch
Phooks
Posts: 3259
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

https://i.imgur.com/GM1K6JQ.jpghttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLKPwF-W0AA5bKn.jpg
PornoPete
Posts: 2829
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

What I love about the Russia hacked the election story is that while intelligence agencies do say they attempted to influence, that is all they say.

To think that Russia stole the election you only need to believe.

$100,000 on facebook ads is more effective than $1.4b in advertising (a large amount of which was spent ... on facebook), and that Russia somehow convinced Clinton not to campaign in the three states that ended up mattering, and to adopt a toxic form of identity politics which had *multi-millionaire* pop stars talking about "privilege" to ordinary people. Oh and convinced Clinton to try to rig the DNC primaries. Oh and to Convince Clinton to use the Clinton foundation as a pay to play system for the past decade. Got hundreds of journalists to write those "hold your nose and vote Clinton" newspaper stories (including John Oliver). And engineered a countrywide appetite for electing an outsider on both sides of the political spectrum a year before polling day.

Those Russians sure got a lot of bang for their $100k in facebook ads.

What I really love about the Russia hacked the election story is how completely it exonerates a catastrophically bad campaign.

I might wash that down with some

I do encourage you to reflect on it.


stated unironically.
deadlyf
Posts: 4064
Location: Queensland

What I love about the Russia hacked the election story is that while intelligence agencies do say they attempted to influence, that is all they say.
They did try to gain direct access to the electoral servers though.

IMO the whole Trump collusion thing is distracting from the fact that Russia are basically attacking America's democracy. Whether you think Trump knowingly colluded or not and I'm personally not convinced he did (some in his campaign may have but I don't really give much credit to Trump), the fact is Russia has made a deliberate attempt to destabilize America's democracy which should be concerning to all.
fpot
Posts: 26080
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Yeah it seems to me Trump is just the plague carcass catapulted into the USA by Russia. Why on earth would they clue him in on the plan? He's dumb and chances are he'd just f*** it up for them. Some of his underlings would know something though. They'll be exposed in time.
Phooks
Posts: 3260
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

"Punching people is Nazism, and the more people you punch, the Nazier you become."
Raven
Posts: 9523
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
the fact is Russia has made a deliberate attempt to destabilize America's democracy which should be concerning to all.

Pft, every country does this all the time. It's nothing new. I'm seriously surprised how worked up and outraged people are getting over this. If they were *actually* hacking voting machines and changing results, then yeah, it would be a problem. But social influence over voting? Oh come on, every country has done this through propoganda for centuries.
PornoPete
Posts: 2830
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Yeah it seems to me Trump is just the plague carcass catapulted into the USA by Russia.


Called it.

What I really love about the Russia hacked the election story is how completely it exonerates a catastrophically bad campaign.


The outgroup bias never has to be ruffled.
Phooks
Posts: 3261
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

https://i.reddituploads.com/4fb2aebfa04c4dffb8eeb26385547f30?fit=max&amp;h=1536&amp;w=1536&amp;s=1ea12b61d189e6f2e653a88cbaba3a09https://i.redd.it/6q62zd1f2bhz.jpg
Phooks
Posts: 3262
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

https://i.redd.it/l95duhvhupzy.jpg

"I used to work at McDonald's making minimum wage. You know what that means when someone pays you minimum wage? You know what your boss was trying to say? "Hey if I could pay you less, I would, but it's against the law."

https://i.redd.it/jmcju96zg67z.jpg
Phooks
Posts: 3263
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

https://pics.me.me/socialism-is-when-the-government-does-stuff-and-more-stuff-13790749.png
Phooks
Posts: 3264
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The outgroup bias never has to be ruffled.


A pro-russian Aussie nationalist? Glad to see Trumpism is spreading across the ocean
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39282
Location: Other International

How about this as an idea for minimum wage:

We remove the minimum wage for anyone under the age of (say) 22-25. It's free market all the way down. We leave the other employee protections in place (penalty rates, holiday time, rest time, etc) or maybe even bump them up a bit.

But, we put in a (higher) minimum wage for people above that age bracket.

The idea is basically trying to compromise between the needs of business and the reality that the competition that comes from capitalism and the increased business flexibility that will result having access to employing more people, and the fact that basically at some point we should be paying people what they need to survive and have a good life.

I've argued about this with my bro; he hates this idea because he thinks that if you're 18 and can do a good enough job as a fry cook, you should be paid the same as someone who is 21. I kinda get this.

My thought though was that if you're young you should be incentivised strongly to skill up beyond basic labour; I like the idea of trying to get our young people into university and/or trades to get skilled up. I think it will be harder to justify for them if they're earning a high minimum wage (as Australia has). I think the reality of the situation is unskilled labour jobs will be the first to go as soon as they can be automated out and it is important to try to get the "youth" used to this sooner rather than later. (I do think skilled labour jobs will be on the chopping block sooner than people think too.)

Businesses can focus on having a larger pool of lower paid employees to have more business flexibility. Any employees that stick around for long enough to become experts/managers/whatever and decide to make a career out of it can do so; presumably in many cases it will be more cost effective to have these employees even at a higher rate of pay than 2-3 noobs.

BUT, I think it's critical to acknowledge that we're going to end up with a part of the population that might be replaced by machines and their prospects might not be great. I think those that are working in these (dwindling) industries as a career need to be taken care of properly and not cast aside, so having a "bump" of minimum wage at some point seems like a reasonable compromise.

Thoughts?
PornoPete
Posts: 2831
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

look at you go phooks.

Triggered again. I look forward to vash agreeing with you.

I do encourage you to reflect on it.


You're ... not ... capable of this are you.

PornoPete
Posts: 2832
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

according to phooks though trog if a fry cook earns less than an orthopedic surgeon its oppression and you're a labour rapist if you disagree.

Am I doing it right phooks?
infi
Posts: 23810
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Thoughts?


you just s*** on every long-term unemployed mature person. well done!
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39283
Location: Other International

Yeh, I guess I just don't think it's a better scenario to remove all minimum wage so those long-term unemployed mature people are battling it out for $5/hour jobs at McDonalds (before those jobs are replaced by machines anyway). If they can't find jobs in today's economy are we doing them favours by just lowering the bar even further and forcing them to compete with schoolkids? There has to be a better way of getting these people back into the economy.

Businesses will just free market things down to the bottom until their competition invents a robot to replace them to get labour costs down to zero. Then what happens? We can either acknowledge that our next generations need to be brought up with a different set of skills (or at the very least, skill in educability) and start solving the problem now or just keep kicking the can down the road.

Maybe I'm wrong and we'll give up on the dream of automation and then we don't need to worry about it. But I keep thinking about the truck drivers.
Raven
Posts: 9524
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
I think sometimes people over-estimate how far automation is going to go.

I'll give you an example on a small scale.

One of the tasks I've set for myself tonight is I need to pull 70 tubes of watercolour paint out of a set of 250. Specific ones. In a worst-case scenario, that's going to mean I need to pick up every single tube one by one, and go through the list and say "is this particular item in my list". That's the fully-manual, slowest version of how I could do it.

Now, luckily, I already automated part of my process to get this list to begin with: Instead of typing the descriptions and colours of every item I had, I scanned the UPC codes of every item, then wrote a tool to look up the item descriptions of those UPC codes. So I've got a list of UPC codes, and a flag whether or not that UPC code is in my list.

Now to complete puzzle you would think I would just scan the UPC code of each item I pick, and get a Y/N. Thing is, I haven't developed that part. And here's where I get to the crossover of whether something is as fully-automated as I would plan to make it, or just go half-way. Writing something to integrate a scanner to do that lookup is more effort than the way I'm probably going to tackle it: Pick each item, and manually key in the last 3 digits of each UPC code. If they get a match, do a full check.

That's the in-between solution. I don't need to fully automate this process, because the cost of developing and implementing that full level of automation is more than I'll save by doing the 50% implementation. In this case, I might as well just do some of the work manually. The cost-benefit of rolling out an automated process just isn't there for the yields. If it were being repeated constantly, sure. But that's an example of why automation isn't going to replace every single job - because it's not repetitive enough.

Automation will only replace jobs where the process is completely replicable, repetitive, and where the machine can do as good or a better job than a person cheaper. If it's cheaper to just use a monkey, companies will continue to pay monkeys.
infi
Posts: 23811
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

If they can't find jobs in today's economy are we doing them favours by just lowering the bar even further and forcing them to compete with schoolkids?


are we going to humiliate them by encouraging them on welfare because we made it illegal for them to accept a job below wage $X out of "kindness"? They will just go onto airtasker uber etc anyways. So the govt kind intentions are redundant anyway.

Low wage jobs are the gateway to high wage jobs. Unemployment is the gateway to more unemployment.

The minimum wage is a dumb idea that has absolutely no reason to exist.
Raven
Posts: 9525
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Minimum wage is there to basically say "a person working full-time should be able to afford the mandatory expenses considered normal in current times.". That's why a minimum wage is necessary.

If a job is paying less than the basic minimum required to house, feed and cloth a person, it is a job that probably has no place existing at all. And if a business requires a person to perform that role in order for that business to function, then they need to be able to pay a living wage. And if a business can't be viable without covering those staff costs required to support the operation of the business, then the question should be asked whether that business needs to exist.
paveway
Posts: 21395
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Low wage jobs are the gateway to high wage jobs. Unemployment is the gateway to more unemployment.

The minimum wage is a dumb idea that has absolutely no reason to exist.


this assumes that everyone can go on and get high wage jobs, which is simply not true for a multitude of reasons

you would know most of these reasons
infi
Posts: 23812
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

so instead make believe that we can force jobs to be high wage by passing a LAW (let's pass a law that gravity no longer exists too), meanwhile vast sectors of the economy sidestep it through airtasker, uber, ubereats, independent contracting etc etc etc. The remainder stay entrenched on welfare. What a farcical delusion. lol
fpot
Posts: 26081
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Good to see you're sticking to your libertarian values infi. It's easy when it's helping keep poor people down. Funny how quickly they're abandoned when it gives you a chance to attack homosexuals, though. Almost like your libertarianism is a facade to mask your prejudice against anyone and everything that isn't white, straight and rich.
FaceMan
Posts: 12924
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

<script></script>
infi
Posts: 23813
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

So if the minimum wage is $600/week and Newstart is say $300, all those people who want to work for in between are shut out of the job market. So who is keeping the poor person down? Who is stopping people from working, forcing them on welfare and disrespecting their liberty to have a job?
deadlyf
Posts: 4065
Location: Queensland

Any word on whether the "politicians" who defrauded the Australian tax payers for over 9 million dollars are going to have to pay it back and or spend a large chunk of time in prison?

I love it how some of them are now demanding a change to the constitution because they didn't have the competence to check their citizenship status before running for parliament. Lets spend more tax money having a referendum for the benefit of these a******s.
fpot
Posts: 26082
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

The minimum wage is not $600 per week. It is x multiplied by the minimum hourly rate per week, x being the amount of hours worked. I see your months spent in the echo chamber havent made you any less dumb.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39284
Location: Other International

are we going to humiliate them by encouraging them on welfare because we made it illegal for them to accept a job below wage $X out of "kindness"? They will just go onto airtasker uber etc anyways. So the govt kind intentions are redundant anyway.
Welfare is a different topic though (but certainly related). I can only extrapolate that welfare will become more and more important going forward; it's just a logical conclusion if you think we're going to have machine doing everything anyway. But I don't see welfare as humiliating at all, certainly not compared to being 50 and having to get a job as a grill cook because that is your only option. Welfare to me in most cases is the government looking after you after you spent so many years contributing to its coffers.
Low wage jobs are the gateway to high wage jobs. Unemployment is the gateway to more unemployment.

The minimum wage is a dumb idea that has absolutely no reason to exist.
I dunno man I've now lived in three countries and the one that [generally] has no minimum wage is the one with the unhappiest people with the shortest life expectancy and the highest level of government debt and the most expensive healthcare and [... list of other things]. I think making citizens happier at the cost of slightly more expensive labour is a price worth paying.

But in any case, I'm trying to find a /compromise/ between the free-market-extremist-capitalism point of view, and the everyone-should-get-all-the-money-all-the-time-no-matter-how-easy-the-job point of view. This is obviously way harder than just taking one of those positions but I think there are advantages to both and it'd be cool if we could find a way to get some of the positives from each of them.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39285
Location: Other International

If a job is paying less than the basic minimum required to house, feed and cloth a person, it is a job that probably has no place existing at all. And if a business requires a person to perform that role in order for that business to function, then they need to be able to pay a living wage. And if a business can't be viable without covering those staff costs required to support the operation of the business, then the question should be asked whether that business needs to exist.
The problem with this is that you can argue that the basic minimums to house, feed, & clothe are just driven upwards by the minimum wage, because that's just what happens - the market charges what it can bear. If you just go around giving everyone free money, the prices will just go up proportionally. This is more or less I think what happens with various things like home buying grants, etc. And of course if you have a minimum wage the price of products has to go up proportionally to account for that because production costs are higher.

So the argument against is that if there is no minimum wage it will make things cheaper. I think this is generally what happens in the US & why (outside of a few places) it seems like so many things are so cheap in the US - because they have to be because of the minimum wage.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39286
Location: Other International

I love it how some of them are now demanding a change to the constitution because they didn't have the competence to check their citizenship status before running for parliament. Lets spend more tax money having a referendum for the benefit of these a******s.
I don't really blame them as much as I blame the process that does not vet them properly. If you are an immigrant coming to Australia you have to do so much ruthless paperwork, yet when it comes to getting into high office we apparently don't even have a checkbox on a form somewhere
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2158
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Just read this last page, infi is making a great case for universal income.
Phooks
Posts: 3265
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

If you are an immigrant coming to Australia you have to do so much ruthless paperwork, yet when it comes to getting into high office we apparently don't even have a checkbox on a form somewhere


High expectations for pollies there Trog! I should remind you Trump has the nuke codes.

So who is keeping the poor person down?


You. Moron. Heres a tldr on economic science since the 1980's/Reagonomics;.

In 2005, T.D. Stanley showed that Card and Krueger's results could signify either publication bias or the absence of a minimum wage effect. However, using a different methodology, Stanley concluded that there is evidence of publication bias and that correction of this bias shows no relationship between the minimum wage and unemployment.[87] In 2008, Hristos Doucouliagos and T.D. Stanley conducted a similar meta-analysis of 64 U.S. studies on disemployment effects and concluded that Card and Krueger's initial claim of publication bias is still correct. Moreover, they concluded, "Once this publication selection is corrected, little or no evidence of a negative association between minimum wages and employment remains."[88] In 2013, a meta-analysis of 16 UK studies found that the minimum wage has no significant effects on employment.[89]


In any case increasing minimum wage is in fact a tricky one because if done irresponsibly it does have measurable effects on the economy. I'm personally in favour of a larger increase in minimum wage because I think longer term effects of equality and human rights impacts society in more important (if less directly/immediately GDP-quantifiable) ways. Im also a fan of policies for tax credits for companies who hire more/increase $/hr of minimum wage employees, which would be especially attractive for larger companies. I think the ILO did a huge piece on it a while ago.

Not that any of that matters though because thanks to PP/infi and the like Trumpism is coming to Australia and One Nation voters are convinced labour laws are socialist/nazi, or something. Yay Populist Nationalism! Remember kids, free trade and immigrants are SAD.
fpot
Posts: 26083
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

https://imgur.com/w1hivH6.jpg
Phooks
Posts: 3266
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

^Lol
You mean the candy that she got for free out of the goodness of strangers' hearts?

He should take 90% of her wage labor candy and give it to the richest kid in the neighborhood to teach her about Republicanism
PornoPete
Posts: 2833
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Heres a tldr on economic science since the 1980's/Reagonomics;.


Jesus the did you hire your cherry picker on the minimum wage?
FaceMan
Posts: 12925
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
You mean the candy that she got for free out of the goodness of strangers' hearts?


Voluntary sharing is different to Wealth Confiscation.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39294
Location: Other International

Yes, one of them is a realistic way to run a government and the other is a dumb libertarian pipedream

edit: that stupid Trump Jr tweet was ripped off from another viral thing going around recently saying the same thing. Basically another attempt to try to justify tax cuts under the guise of "tax == socialism". f***ing useless.
FaceMan
Posts: 12926
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
For Gods Sake when is the Governor General going to act on this Circus ?
Labor and Labor-Lite wont call for an audit because they dont know how many are ineligible.
Legislation may have been passed by dodgy MPs
Terminal Turnbull may have been aware of ineligible Members and kept it secret.

ITS A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS

https://i.imgur.com/6c91KwD.jpg


TICK TOCK

https://i.imgur.com/JCGlyJr.jpg



trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39298
Location: Other International

I think the bigger news is when did they start making really s***ty quality memes that were that huge in size
fpot
Posts: 26084
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

About the time 4chan was founded.
PornoPete
Posts: 2834
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

could have been made in Russia. Hey while we are backslapping about how we are really super smart and all.

Here is an ad that attracted a fee on facebook of $53 dollars planted by the russians tm.

https://static.politico.com/f2/b3/35dcae584875a3dc3f63da1eef0e/flag.png

I don't know about you but I'd definitely vote for someone on the strength of that.

here is another. They blew a staggering $8.

https://static.politico.com/71/ba/8c72dd36489e862aee220357dc20/born-liberal.png

How could anyone not vote right.

They also planted an ad saying you can vote by tweeting a hashtag. <- that is a literal claim for voter suppression. The Russians. Suppressed the vote. By convincing people to tweet their vote. In a presidential election.

I don't know about you guys, but I've made up my mind. Russian trolls elected trump. the evidence speaks for itself. We need to "patch this bug in our democracy"
Vash
Posts: 5572
Location:

I don't know about you but I'd definitely vote for someone on the strength of that.


Yet PP would've voted Hillary.
Phooks
Posts: 3267
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

PP I found a fun one for you and your friends.

https://i.redditmedia.com/MavEOD5hEV5yMMbG2sU5_0CxR_D3R_URicbfS0RM5DQ.jpg?w=528&amp;s=dce4c18758dda4ce769ede63369aad1f

Now, I know you find that hilarious because 'one of these things is not like the other!!' Great huh. Now, bear with me. Try to replace white with Muslim and Nazi with terrorist. Then you might realise, through taking the perspective of a Muslim(!), that the top post is satire. Fun hey!?
Phooks
Posts: 3268
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Oh and heres a thing.

Foundations of Geopolitics, by Alexander Dugin
The book declares that "the battle for the world rule of [ethnic] Russians" has not ended and Russia remains "the staging area of a new anti-bourgeois, anti-American revolution." The Eurasian Empire will be constructed "on the fundamental principle of the common enemy: the rejection of Atlanticism, strategic control of the USA, and the refusal to allow liberal values to dominate us."[1]
Military operations play relatively little role. The textbook believes in a sophisticated program of subversion, destabilization, and disinformation spearheaded by the Russian special services. The operations should be assisted by a tough, hard-headed utilization of Russia's gas, oil, and natural resources to bully and pressure other countries.[1]

The book states that "the maximum task [of the future] is the 'Finlandization' of all of Europe".[1]
In Europe:
Germany should be offered the de facto political dominance over most Protestant and Catholic states located within Central and Eastern Europe. Kaliningrad oblast could be given back to Germany. The book uses the term a "Moscow-Berlin axis".[1]
France should be encouraged to form a "Franco-German bloc" with Germany. Both countries have a "firm anti-Atlanticist tradition".[1]
>United Kingdom should be cut off from Europe.[1]
Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be "donated to Murmansk Oblast".[1]
Estonia should be given to Germany's sphere of influence.[1]
Latvia and Lithuania should be given a "special status" in the Eurasian-Russian sphere.[1]
Poland should be granted a "special status" in the Eurasian sphere.[1]
Romania, Macedonia, "Serbian Bosnia" and Greece – "orthodox collectivist East" – will unite with the "Moscow the Third Rome" and reject the "rational-individualistic West".[1]
>Ukraine should be annexed by Russia because "“Ukraine as a state has no geopolitical meaning, no particular cultural import or universal significance, no geographic uniqueness, no ethnic exclusiveness, its certain territorial ambitions represents an enormous danger for all of Eurasia and, without resolving the Ukrainian problem, it is in general senseless to speak about continental politics". Ukraine should not be allowed to remain independent, unless it is cordon sanitaire, which would be inadmissible.[1]
In the Middle East and Central Asia:
The book stresses the "continental Russian-Islamic alliance" which lies "at the foundation of anti-Atlanticist strategy". The alliance is based on the "traditional character of Russian and Islamic civilization". Iran is a key ally. The book uses the term "Moscow-Tehran axis".[1]
Armenia has a special role and will serve as a "strategic base" and it is necessary to create "the [subsidiary] axis Moscow-Erevan-Teheran". Armenians "are an Aryan people … [like] the Iranians and the Kurds".[1]
Azerbaijan could be "split up" or given to Iran.[1]
>Georgia should be dismembered. Abkhazia and "United Ossetia" (which includes Georgia's South Ossetia) will be incorporated into Russia. Georgia's independent policies are unacceptable.[1]
Russia needs to create "geopolitical shocks" within Turkey. These can be achieved by employing Kurds, Armenians and other minorities.[1]
The book regards the Caucasus as a Russian territory, including "the eastern and northern shores of the Caspian (the territories of Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan)" and Central Asia (mentioning Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kirghistan and Tajikistan).[1]
In Asia:
China, which represents a danger to Russia, "must, to the maximum degree possible, be dismantled". Dugin suggests that Russia start by taking Tibet-Xinjiang-Mongolia-Manchuria as a security belt.[2] Russia should offer China help "in a southern direction – Indochina (except Vietnam), the Philippines, Indonesia, Australia" as geopolitical compensatation.[1]
Russia should manipulate Japanese politics by offering the Kuril Islands to Japan and provoking anti-Americanism.[1]
Mongolia should be absorbed into Eurasia-Russia.[1]
>The book emphasizes that Russia must spread Anti-Americanism everywhere: "the main 'scapegoat' will be precisely the U.S."
In the United States:
>Russia should use its special forces within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism. For instance, **provoke "Afro-American racists". Russia should "introduce geopolitical disorder into internal American activity, encouraging all kinds of separatism and ethnic, social and racial conflicts, actively supporting all dissident movements – extremist, racist, and sectarian groups, thus destabilizing internal political processes in the U.S. It would also make sense simultaneously to support isolationist tendencies in American politics."[1]
The Eurasian Project could be expanded to South and Central America.[1]


In case you're not up to speed on the latest in international geopolitics; this stuff is basically Russias to-do list for the past few decades, and Trump, a populist isolationist racist-pandering nationalistic warmonger, is a big win for Russia.
Vash
Posts: 5573
Location:

As well as the continuing fall of Trump's polling, the voters realised they've been had.
It's cute and all to think this has been an uprising against political correctness and 'post modernism' but im afraid not.
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7751
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
^^ A+++ would allhu akbar again

last edited by sLaps_Forehead at 00:42:03 04/Nov/17
Phooks
Posts: 3269
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD Vash!!#$!$

Happened to catch I think it was 97.3fm talking about PC GONE MAD in schools, because some schools were changing the baa baa black sheep rhyme to baa baa pink sheep or something. They kept being shocked and appalled that this could happen, kept asking why, WHY? Then after about a minute of this, a host was like.. 'well, when you think about it, it's not a good thing to be a 'black sheep'.. because it's a 'black' sheep..', 'yeah but I don't see what that has to do with the rhyme.....' 'well it has a black sheep in it..' 'but it's a sheep..' (awkward pause) You could almost, almost see the wheels of logic turning, turning at the slowest pace, before CUE ADS.

But honestly Political Correctness, it's the downfall of society I tell you. downfall. of. society. someone should really do something about it. like maybe, ban political correctness in schools. yeah. and businesses. we should set up a Political Correctness Special Task Force to go into schools and businesses and investigate and punish people who do things in a politically correct way. thatll teach those f***in LOONY LEFTIES and PROTECT MY RIGHTS TO DISREGARD BLACK ISSUES OR PERSPECTIVES IN ANY REAL WAYFREE SPEECH

Because free speech and family values are important. Especially those that are against abortion, gay rights, or any major feminist objectives.
taggs
Posts: 6525
Location:

f*** me
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7752
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I think Phooksy has gone off his meds
PornoPete
Posts: 2835
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Well done showing how much you care about the plight of muslims. I was so moved. What you should definitely do, while people are still being killed during a terrorist incident is start broadcasting how "not all muslims" to guard against the anti-muslim backlash that never happens. That really shows how much you care.

Yes Russia is getting everything it wants in the world right now through deft maneuvering (which is why in a covert op there are now three public bodies investigating Russian interference in the election). So phooks. Your dealing in outright conspiracy theory now well done.

Russia should use its special forces within the borders of the United States to fuel instability and separatism.


And what they mean by that in practice is blowing 8 USD on a facebook ad from a computer in Cyprus and trying to convince people to vote on twitter.

But hey you do what you have to convince yourself that only the stupid people didn't vote your way. Vash agrees with you so it's not a flying start.

It's cute and all to think this has been an uprising against political correctness and 'post modernism' but im afraid not


Well I'm afraid it is. This is an article printed in the Atlantic.

Post modernism and identity politics are cul de sacs.
Nmag
Posts: 852
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Vash, why do you hate Trump so much?
Phooks
Posts: 3270
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

the anti-muslim backlash that never happens.


Yeah nah you're right, racism doesn't exist.

This is an article printed in the Atlantic


Now here's a good one. So the argument is that the left looks at social/cultural issues so much, that it comes at the expense of looking at class issues, while at the same time, the left has an ' insouciant use of terms like ‘late capitalism’ suggesting that we can just wait for capitalism to collapse'. Because as we all know the acknowledgement that late stage capitalism has failed especially the poorest of us means we must become anarchist/apathetic revolutionaries? Or somehow at the same time the left does both too little and too much on inequality? The doubleplusthink is astounding.

Then he criticises the left for identity politics, while also arguing its biggest failing is that the left is full of 'those privileged liberal elite and academics' who need to cater to 'the pure, common man'. The level of unashamed projection is unreal.

This Left wants to preserve otherness rather than to ignore it … If the cultural Left insists on continuing its present strategy—on asking us to respect one another in our differences rather than asking us to cease noting those differences—then it will have to find a new way of creating a sense of commonality at the level of national politics. For only a rhetoric of commonality can forge a winning majority in national elections.

A good summary of the right wing understanding of racism, and inability to have a superordinate national identity outside of 'f*** people who aren't like me!'. 'You want to fix or even acknowledge racism? That's racist. Me? I'm so non-racist, I don't even see race.'

And of course, right at the bottom a video: 'populism will save the democrats!' f***ing LOL. Yes I would like to order one demagogue with fries please
FaceMan
Posts: 12927
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Happy Deny Democracy Day everyone !
or
Bash The Fash Day

https://i.imgur.com/Q2Isv9V.jpg
Vash
Posts: 5574
Location:

Happy Deny Democracy Day everyone


But when your side publishes a full page ad, it's about freedom & democracy right?
infi
Posts: 23816
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

these guys advocate violence to promote an "anti-fascist" agenda. if they disagree with you, you will get bashed - so watch out!

they are not mentally well and should be avoided. don't go near the rallies or the universities.

the best place to go to not be injured by anti-fascists during the protests is a job-network office.
Phooks
Posts: 3271
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Leaving out extreme right groups
Pauline

Lol
Phooks
Posts: 3272
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

FaceMan
Posts: 12928
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Malcolm Turnbull 4th September this year
In Question Time Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull called on Mr Shorten to release proof that he had renounced his UK citizenship.

"All he has to do is produce a piece of paper, that's all he's got to do," Mr Turnbull said. "What is he trying to cover up. Is it his situation or others?"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-04/bill-shorten-presents-citizenship-papers-to-parliament/8870476

Malcolm Turnbull yesterday
“What is an audit? Are we saying that we’d propose to have somebody interrogate each and every member and senator? Examine their genealogy?” The only body in Australia that could determine eligibility to sit under Section 44 of the Constitution is the High Court, Mr Turnbull said. “Nobody else can do that.”

http://www.news.com.au/national/politics/government-minister-josh-frydenberg-may-be-dual-citizen-of-australia-and-hungary/news-story/99ac66dd1269dcf91e8cb60db2361ab5

...and The Holocaust, so there !

what a great big Hypocritical Wanker

Some journalist needs to grow some balls and ask Turnbull about this.
Laurie Oakes needs to come out of retirement

Nmag
Posts: 853
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNhIaVeXkAAXh9o.jpg
Phooks
Posts: 3273
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

https://i.redd.it/yhdssuop1orz.gif
PornoPete
Posts: 2837
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Oh phooks, well I didn't think you'd understand the argument because coherent argument isn't something you do.

Or somehow at the same time the left does both too little and too much on inequality? The doubleplusthink is astounding.


There is no double think at all. The people most likely to scold others about privilege on the left are the most likely to have a s*** load of it.

Policing speech is much cheaper then actually doing stuff. So they don't focus on inequality that is the point. They focus on largely irrelevant factors to avoid actually having to do s***.

Hillary Clinton's campaign was the epitome of it. roping in JayZ to scold everyone about privilege. Because he is black. Just ignore the billion dollars he has in the bank. Focused too much on inequality. What a joke.

Yeah nah you're right, racism doesn't exist.


Being racist against muslims makes exactly as much sense as being racist against republicans phooks. You're a big time racist by that standard.

Anyway. I look forward to your next triggered tirade. always entertaining. The key point of that article was that it was published in a heavily left leaning paper. Good to see that sailed straight over your pretty little head too.
Phooks
Posts: 3274
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

taggs
Posts: 6526
Location:

that's a really thought provoking video and helped me change my views on an important political matter

edit: does anyone think friendlyjordies is actually funny? legit asking. seen him touring local rsls and have not been inclined to participate
Vash
Posts: 5575
Location:

Not really but he brings up alot of good points

Glad you got something out of it.
PornoPete
Posts: 2838
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

That vash sure can run, not to bright though.

It's funny you should bring up friendlyjordies phooks. I wonder what his take on identity politics is. (tip, its basically the same as that Atlantic article.)

Taggs, I don't agree with him on too much but I find him funny. He has a house party video which I get a chuckle out of.
Vash
Posts: 5576
Location:


PP in all his wisdom thinks there is no systemic nor cultural oppression of minorities. The naivety is strong in this one.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/17/opinion/sunday/unequal-sentences-for-blacks-and-whites.html


PornoPete
Posts: 2839
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Vash in all his wisdom still hasn't figured out that correlation is not causation. This is classic idiot left wing thinking. Disparity therefore systematic society wide effort spent to achieve said disparity.

I'll take an NYT story on sentence disparity seriously when it places crime rates in the same article.
Rukh
Posts: 1114
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Here's something with *6 times* the racial prison gap....

https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx

Is the racial prison gap a thing? Yes. The gender prison gap however is far more significant.
PornoPete
Posts: 2840
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Is the racial prison gap a thing? Yes. The gender prison gap however is far more significant.


What happens to the racial gap when you control for the gender gap?
Vash
Posts: 5577
Location:

This is classic idiot left wing thinking.


Meanwhile heres the kind of thinking from the right wing.

https://i.imgur.com/DwSEAkR.jpg

Left wing thinking (most of the time) involves rational, critical thought. Analysis of facts, and applying policy based on science. The right wing provides a many dumbism from Hanson, Contrell, Abbott, Trump and countless others.
It's a very emotional political philosophy.
PornoPete
Posts: 2841
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Left wing thinking (most of the time) involves rational, critical thought.


Post an emotive tweet while claiming rational thought is the provence of your side of politics. That post which doesn't contain a blatant internal contradiction is out there vash.

Riddle me this Vash.

Sentencing disparity against blacks = society is prejudiced against blacks.

Rukh just gave evidence that the sentencing disparity against men in general is 6 times larger than against blacks. Is society prejudiced against men? If not why not.
Vash
Posts: 5578
Location:

Post an emotive tweet while claiming rational thought is the provence of your side of politics.


Yes... the emotive tweet is from the right side of politics. Are you confused?

Sentencing disparity is but one facet of prejudice against blacks. Many other examples that im sure you know of. Men vs women is a different matter entirely, which is more because courts usually see women as being influenced by men to commit crimes, or they try to convince the court of such anyway.
Phooks
Posts: 3275
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

FaceMan
Posts: 12929
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Federal Greens MP Adam Bandt has accused Immigration Minister Peter Dutton of being a "terrorist" over the treatment of 600 asylum seekers at the now-closed Manus Island detention centre.

"What is happening between Canberra and Manus has ceased to be government and has become terror," Mr Bandt told a rally in Melbourne's CBD attended by hundreds of people on Saturday. "If the definition of terror is to use violence and threaten people's lives for political purposes, then Peter Dutton is a terrorist."


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/greens-terrorist-claim-puts-us-in-danger/news-story/ca5f17e4d4adb7df1491adfa131ff20c

What do you call people who encourage poor ppl in 3rd world countries that are mysteriously wealthy enough to pay ppl smugglers thousands of US $$ to illegally trespass in to our great Country ?

How would Boy Bandt feel about more children drowning as they travel here on leaky boats ?

the greens are like a pre-teens Political Party.
PornoPete
Posts: 2842
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Are you confused?

Do you know he thinks its emotive? how does a statement like that make you feel vash?

Men vs women is a different matter entirely, which is more because courts usually see women as being influenced by men to commit crimes, or they try to convince the court of such anyway.

Would that be you talking out of your ass? Because it reads like you talking out your ass.

So just to sum that up for you real quick.

You think a sentencing disparity against blacks is evidence of prejudice against blacks. but a much larger sentencing disparity against men isn't evidence of prejudice against men because men make women commit crime.

You've said some stupid f***ing s*** vash, but that is right on up there.
Vash
Posts: 5579
Location:

Yes. Women get less sentencing due to what i said. If you dont understand thats on you.
Phooks
Posts: 3276
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

PP, arguably the perfect human, and now expert on gender differences, finds that differences between male and female incarceration and victimisation rates are unfair, in particular instances with bias towards men and women for different crimes.

Continuing with his groundbreaking research agenda, he finds gender expectations define acceptable behaviours and attitudes for both females and males and this has measurable effects on the criminologocal and justice system.

He coins his new research 'gender studies' and goes on to have a successful career as a postdoctoral researcher at a liberal University, founding the 'Gender Studies Institute of Australia'.
Phooks
Posts: 3277
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

His friends distance themselves from him, citing his 'f***in gay career' and 'f*****ty liberal arts degree'.

Meanwhile, friendships with his new peers at University (the Liberal Intelligentsia) cause him an identity crisis, and he starts questioning whether he is really part of the 'Republican Race' after all.
PornoPete
Posts: 2843
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Left wing thinking (most of the time) involves rational, critical thought.
You think a sentencing disparity against blacks is evidence of prejudice against blacks. but a much larger sentencing disparity against men isn't evidence of prejudice against men because men make women commit crime.
Yes. Women get less sentencing due to what i said. If you dont understand thats on you.


Delicious. I understand the sentence just fine vash. Not sure you do. I don't suppose you can back that up with any evidence can you?

Phooks, arguably human, managed to deduce from that that I think society is prejudiced against men.

I think rather than start 'gender studies' ill start an adult literacy program. It's mildly concerning you owe people a professional duty.
Nmag
Posts: 854
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Civilisation

civilization ˌsɪvɪlʌɪˈzeɪʃ(ə)n/Submit noun noun: civilisation the stage of human social development and organization which is considered most advanced. "the Victorians equated the railways with progress and civilization" synonyms: human development, advancement, progress, enlightenment, edification, culture, cultivation, refinement, sophistication "a higher stage of civilization" the process by which a society or place reaches an advanced stage of social development and organization. the society, culture, and way of life of a particular area. plural noun: civilizations; plural noun: civilisations "the great books of Western civilization"


Savages

savage ˈsavɪdʒ/Submit noun plural noun: savages 1. (chiefly in historical or literary contexts) a member of a people regarded as primitive and uncivilized. synonyms: barbarian, wild man, wild woman, primitive, heathen; cannibal "Sheila had expected mud huts and savages" 2. a brutal or vicious person. "the mother of one of the victims has described his assailants as savages" synonyms: brute, beast, monster, barbarian, ogre, demon, sadist, animal "the mother of one of the victims has described his assailants as savages" verb 3rd person present: savages 1. (especially of a dog or wild animal) attack ferociously and maul. "police are rounding up dogs after a girl was savaged" synonyms: maul, attack, tear to pieces, lacerate, claw, bite, mutilate, mangle; worry "11-year-old Kelly was savaged by two Rottweilers"
infi
Posts: 23817
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


jordies' predictable shtick is real cringe - he needs to change it up (buy new wigs). he reckons 20% of the budget is welfare. not according to parliament library.

Key issue
Social security and welfare represents 35 per cent of the Australian Government’s expenses. The level and sustainability of this expenditure will be a key issue for the Parliament.
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BriefingBook45p/WelfareCost

if you work, you must give the government money. if you don't work, the govt gives you money. what a deal!

and if you want to work but cannot contribute enough value to justify the minimum wage for your job, well you have to stay on welfare because the govt and unions says so.


Arpey
Posts: 185
Location: New South Wales


jordies' predictable shtick is real cringe - he needs to change it up (buy new wigs). he reckons 20% of the budget is welfare. not according to parliament library.

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BriefingBook45p/WelfareCost

if you work, you must give the government money. if you don't work, the govt gives you money. what a deal!

and if you want to work but cannot contribute enough value to justify the minimum wage for your job, well you have to stay on welfare because the govt and unions says so.



You might want to take a look at the graph in that article, 'social security and welfare' includes a lot more than those lazy f***ing dole bludgers. They make up a very small part of it.
infi
Posts: 23818
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

It's all welfare and it's paid for by a) a shrinking number of working people and b) borrowed money.
fpot
Posts: 26085
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

So the elderly and disabled should go and get jobs then? One thing you need to keep in mind is that for some people jobs are actually hard. Not everyone has an impossible to fail position to parachute into their dad's office with when they fail at life in the real world like you do.
infi
Posts: 23820
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

if you knew anything about business you would know how risky it is when at that whims of banks and public policy. but you know nothing about business so make ad hominen attacks instead. SAD!

the disabled should work as best they can with assistance and adjustments. some profoundly disabled people need full government support. seniors should work as long as they are able. they should be proud to contribute and feel part of a valued team. my financial controller is 70 and she is a bloody legend, she loves life and loves work.

the lame "i paid my taxes, i'm owed a pension" culture weakens our country.
fpot
Posts: 26086
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Yeah I don't know a whole lot about business but I know a bit about you. Like that time you thought employment was a choice between a $300 Newstart payment and a $600 minimum salary with nothing in between. You're obviously as thick as s***, how could you ever be trusted with anything important? And just lately you're still willfully ignorant of the fact that not everyone has an easy job to just fall into and that the majority of jobs are hard and unrewarding. But hey gotta keep that libertarian smoke screen active to mask your racism and homophobia don't ya?
PornoPete
Posts: 2844
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

your racism and homophobia


Bingo!
infi
Posts: 23821
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Is it illegal to accept a full time job paying $450/week?

i treat fpot's use of "racism and homophobia" as an uncontrollable asperger's like condition. it should be ignored
fpot
Posts: 26087
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

So you've chosen to ignore casual employment which makes up the vast majority of entry level positions, especially in the $300 to $600 bracket?

edit: and like dur, of course you're racist. You're a Trump supporter. I was actually surprised when I found out you were also a homophobe. I didn't think you were 100% terrible.
Vash
Posts: 5580
Location:

Infi meets a workaholic 70 year old and suddenly thinks everyone that age wants to keep working after having worked their whole lives.
infi
Posts: 23822
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Can a casual employee choose to work for $15/hour? No. The argument re minimum wage applies to hourly rates too. If a worker with low skills is only worth that much, they must instead go on welfare.

The govt bans people from getting a start, especially the poor, unskilled, those stuck in welfare traps, typical govt do-gooder ineptitude. So that the union award racket is entrenched.

Fpot doesn't care about youth unemployment and elderly long-term unemployed. SAD.
Vash
Posts: 5581
Location:

The govt bans people from getting a start, especially the poor, unskilled, those stuck in welfare traps, typical govt do-gooder ineptitude.


The entire welfare process is about getting people into work or learning. Thankfully you haven't required it otherwise you'd know this instead of spouting what you've read in the daily telegraph or on a current affair.
fpot
Posts: 26088
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Why is it that dumb people always double down on the dumb?
PornoPete
Posts: 2845
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

your racism and homophobia
and like dur, of course you're racist. You're a Trump supporter. I was actually surprised when I found out you were also a homophobe.
Why is it that dumb people always double down on the dumb?


Yeah why is that?
Nmag
Posts: 855
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Stupid people turn things personal.
Phooks
Posts: 3278
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

infi for a hardcore libertarian you show a failing of understanding of labour markets. You also seem to think that the biggest motivation you can give someone is poverty, which is pretty sick.

If a worker with low skills is only worth that much, they must instead go on welfare.


Disregarding your baseless assumption that giving poor people a 'living wage' (just above poverty?) decreases their motivation to work (an assumption that doesn't somehow apply to tax breaks or subsidies to businesses/the wealthy in order to incentivise 'investment and opportunities'..?), the value workers get paid is not based on the value they produce (that's socialism!), but based on employer offerings for different labour markets/award rates etc. In any case, obsessive cost cutting is good strategy for any one business, but it is bad for the national economy. Can you think of why?

Second;
if you want to work but cannot contribute enough value to justify the minimum wage for your job


You seem to think that the value someone can produce is a choice, disregarding the mathematical impossibility of number of available jobs vs. number of unemployed/underemployed right now. Even if it was a choice, the value produced by a person at their workplace is determined moreso by the requirements and resources/demands of their job rather than their performance at it (unless they are brand new/toxic/bottom performer). Either way your logic would then look something like this I assume

https://i.redd.it/oo9xn45yitlz.jpg

At the core of the libertarian mindset is that businesses and markets should be free to set prices as they want, but what comes with that is that those businesses are under no obligations whatsoever to use that freedom for the betterment of their workers or society, which is one reason real wages have remained flat while business profits continue towards record profits over the last few decades. We do not live in a meritocracy. If you think we do because of your personal entrepreneurial success story, I would remind you that that's like a lottery winner telling everyone to just buy lottery tickets for a living.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on a government assistance program like the New Enterprise Incentive Scheme. Is that just another wasteful handout or are entrepreneurs a superior class of human?

Even if you disagree with all of the above infi, the price of labour is increasing and the price of automation/AI and robots in decreasing. Libertarianism is not our gateway out of this mess.
Phooks
Posts: 3279
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8lNzm_XUAEOWbU.jpg
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39304
Location: Other International


Here's a post I made on FB in response to a question my (American) cousin asked related to minimum wage which is kinda relevant; he was asking along the broad lines of whether it's possible for us to come up with some sort of generic simple job anyone can do whenever they want to make enough money to live happily in the event they can't find the work they want to do.

I don't think so, outside of massive projects that could only possibly exist because there is an infinite supply of basically free labour. (Reminded of the famous shovel & spoons quote: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/10/10/spoons-shovels/ ).

The libertarian/free market solution to this is to drop the minimum wage, which [they think] will ensure a ready supply of basic low wage jobs across all sectors, along with a bunch of other benefits.

(Having a quick look at the states that have no minimum wage (Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina and Tennessee) it is interesting to note that they're all in the middle of the pack in terms of GDP, but also all in the bottom 10 by something called " American Human Development Index", which is apparently "a biennial report on human well-being in the United States" (link). Four of them also feature in the CNBC's list of "America’s worst states to live in 2017" (link).

There are obviously a huge amount of other factors but on the surface I find it hard to credit the libertarian/free market idea that no minimum wage results in a better outcome. I confess I find the idea seductive; I'm enough of a capitalist to want the market to find a solution to these kinds of problems. But (as is typical in most cases) I think the only realistic answer lies in a compromise between two extremes and the constant push-and-pull between them to find an appropriate balance for the times.


Nmag
Posts: 856
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Your cousin could join the army, or clean floors at NASA, those things are big business over there. Maybe sell flags and eagles, they like them too. Just import them from China and sew the made in USA patches on, they will sell like hots cakes. Nationalistic inclusive deluded nation.

Here is an image for Vash (and all other Trump haters):

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DM2QyoJUIAAhhbq.jpg
Phooks
Posts: 3280
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/US_Wealth_Inequality_-_v2.png

Australian jobless poverty rates are at 53.5%, the second worst nation recorded by the OECD. The only jobs that are being created are part-time, and the unemployment rate is higher than what it was a few years ago. And because the wealth of the lower and middle class is tied up in real estate any rise in interest rates will probably mean the end of, you guessed it, not just our housing market.

Is it the billionaires, multi-nationals and mega-rich who should answer to society? No, society does not own businesses, shareholders do! And we all know society owes its very existence to shareholders. Labour government, unions and labour laws never did anything right, and have really bad economic policy. Let's instead blame and punish those who cannot find work - those on welfare are responsible for everything.

Tax avoidance and offshore havens? No, that's ridiculous spin cooked up by those bleeding heart lefties. People in poverty, now that's where my anger is.
Phooks
Posts: 3281
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Productivity_and_Real_Median_Family_Income_Growth_in_the_United_States.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Wealth_inequality_panel_-_v1.pnghttp://i.huffpost.com/gen/1359800/original.jpg

It's almost as if there is a reason Article 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights exists, or something

Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
Phooks
Posts: 3282
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

And remember kids, those big-government advocates are wrong, debt BAD, austerity GOOD. (This propaganda brought to you by Rupert Murdoch).

Austerity in Australia: Yanis Varoufakis offers lessons from the eurozone.

Why this penchant for austerity?

The intellectually curious cannot, at this juncture, fail to ask: if austerity is a foregone disaster, why is it so popular amongst conservative governments? The answer lies not so much in the austerity measures that they adopt but, rather, in those which they shun.

For instance, if the Australian government wanted to slash the federal deficit, why did it not think of culling the factor price-distorting fuel subsidy to miners and farmers, which costs Canberra $7.5 billion annually? How about the private health insurance subsidy that could have saved the government $7 billion every year, some of which could be spent on public hospitals without any net loss to health care provision? Why abolish the $5 billion carbon tax? Indeed, why keep the Howard government’s tax cuts, which were responsible for the increase in public debt as a result of the faulty assumption that corporate and capital gains taxes would pay for them ad infinitum?

The obvious answer is that austerity was never about tackling public debt. It was not even a political campaign to end the ‘culture of entitlement’. In the UK, in the eurozone, and now in Australia, austerity is, and always was, a thinly disguised campaign of invoking fiscal prudence and public virtues in order to indulge private vices and redistribute entitlements at the expense of the majority.
Phooks
Posts: 3283
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Vote TrumpHanson
PornoPete
Posts: 2847
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So when paul keating spent 6 years lowering Australia's government spending from from 30% GDP to 25% and working to get rid of debt, it was to f*** the lower class and middle classes, gotcha.

I mean he and *everyone else* might contest that and point to the 25 straight years of low inflation growth and living standards among the highest on the planet. But the Labor treasurer was out to f*** the little man.

Oh and please use graphs that don't end just after the GFC.
Phooks
Posts: 3284
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Ah yes the Keating government, the pro-Asia pro-free trade, and pro-affirmative action government that introduced bills like the disability act to help disabled people get jobs. But f*** all that because really, the lower corporate tax rate is what we have to thank for getting out of the recession (a recession which in no way was part of a longer term business cycle with market corrections that had no long-term benefits whatsoever to, say, interest rates). What we should do, is keep lowering and lowering corporate tax rates because that magically increases GDP with no negative consequences whatsoever. Forget economic or political stability, infrastructure, worker skills or industry attractiveness. Low tax, now that is what drives an economy.

Just look how disgustingly HIGH our corporate tax rate is
http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/8426034/data/corporate-tax-rates-around-the-world-data.jpg

In fact, we should follow the trend of Ireland and the Cayman Islands and just lower the official corporate tax rate to 10%. Then we can become the World Leader in the Race to The Bottom. PP don't you wonder why modern day conservatives are isolationist? Protectionist? Because they have a 'f***-you-got-mine' attitude to international trade. We live in a shared world PP. Globalisation exists! Like it or not your fate is tied moreso to those Chinese factory workers than it is to Trump. This is why Russia really doesn't give a f*** about Australia outside of our US 'alliance'.

Most importantly to your argument though, government expenditure is BAD, as it increases DEBT, and has absolutely no effect on the level of demand for goods and services in the economy.

Oh wait no, it does.

Fiscal austerity reduces demand for goods and services arising out of public sector activity and increases the public debt to GDP ratio. Production = demand for goods and services, austerity = downward pressure on production and in turn the growth of output and employment. Even if the interest rates payable goes down, this will have an opposite effect on the private sector/confidence if no one is buying. Do you think a $ spent by the government is somehow drastically different to the $ spent by consumers?

Lower 'government' spending = lower spending = literally the opposite of economic 'growth'.

Even if I was wrong, right wing rhetoric on austerity doesn't actually mean reduced spending and 'fixing the debt'. It never f***ing does. Fuel subsidy, private health insurance subsidy, carbon tax, corporate and capital gains tax cuts? If they wanted to fix the debt tomorrow they could. The bulls*** pandering about the 'debt' isn't about the f***ing debt. It's about “freeing” up markets. And in case you can't translate from everyday conservative dog whistling, this means a race to the bottom in both the labour market and on corporate tax rates.
Phooks
Posts: 3285
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

What I love most is that when someone speaks of equality on behalf of the poorest and most disadvantaged amongst us, it's communistic class warfare. But when business execs and billionaires come out about lower tax rates class warfare is never f***in brought up.

That's because 'small government-pro-market' types like PP, Nmag and infi have been fed the bulls*** excuses that neoliberal policy increases productivity which leads to better pay for workers and better outcomes for society. Which it doesn't. The increases in productivity haven't 'trickled down' to the rest of society in over 35 years.

Which is probably what I love about your Keating example the most PP. You know how Keating saved Australia? What the f*** do you think he saved us from? The neoliberal policies of the 80s lead to the deepest modern recession Australia has ever seen - beating the more recent geat recession. Somehow small government pro market always works, so long as you ignore all the times it doesn’t.

Are there any other failings of neoliberal policy? Lets see, poorer infrastructure which is still under attack by the right, housing affordability, GFC, oh and you know, not too big of a deal but just the end of the f***ing world.
Phooks
Posts: 3286
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Can you believe the greens want to regulate a "business environment that encourages businesses and governments to fulfil their corporate, social and environmental responsibilities"? Those f***in commies don't even know how to run a business. Not least a hugely successful business. Not like Trump does.

This type of left wing over-regulation is totalitarian. Don't they realise Hitler was a socialist? Why else would the Nazis name themselves the National Socialist German Workers' Party? You can't really say the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is anything but democratic.
Raven
Posts: 9528
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
WTF just happened?
FaceMan
Posts: 12932
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I think Phooks has discovered something with his charts.
Wealthy people have been getting wealthier with the more Socialism we have.

Socialism has Failed.
(well if you are poor that is)

Hang on a minute, maybe thats why Limousine Liberals promote it ?
Because it makes them Wealthier.



PornoPete
Posts: 2848
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

WTF just happened?


I pointed out that the greatest treasurer Labor has ever produced had a very specific target for government spending (and was generally neo-liberal in his approach), and phooks got triggered.

Cause he does.

Australia had a recession in 1990. It has been targeting government spending of around 25% of GPD and hasn't had one since.
Nmag
Posts: 857
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

It's in the affluent interest to open borders. It increases population, helps keep wages lower.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39306
Location: Other International

I think Phooks has discovered something with his charts.
Wealthy people have been getting wealthier with the more Socialism we have.
I think you missed the bit about the second huge recent revelation about wealthy people skipping the "social" part of "socialism" by offshoring their wealth and evading taxes.

You say some pretty incredible things but this could be the first time in history where someone has said socialism is responsible for making people too rich. Nice one!
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39307
Location: Other International

How could someone be left wing, and support increased competition for themselves in:
-property market
-job opportunities
-public services (education, transport, health)
-welfare
You say "increased competition", they say "increased cooperation". It's really quite easy to explain.

I vote we stop using terms 'left' and 'right' in political discussions. I am thinking about blocking them client side in a few places to see what it does to the overall level of visible political discourse. I think the main effect will be to filter out the Russian troll conversations, and those indistinguishable from same from clueless extremists on both sides. I can't think of a single reasonable conversation I've had recently where those terms (and maybe 'liberal' and 'conservative', and I guess while I'm at it, 'libtard' and 'rwnj').
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39308
Location: Other International

interesting article from BBC this morning looking at some famour car racer guy's tax avoidance schemes as revealed in the latest whatever papers leak.

Just a reminder that the enemy is really accountants and tax lawyers and the politicians they trick into passing complex tax law
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2159
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


Just a reminder that the enemy is really accountants and tax lawyers and the politicians they trick into passing complex tax law


This guys website has a few things on the big 4 accounting firms being more of a risk to the economy than bankers.

https://www.michaelwest.com.au/bonfire-of-the-big-four-accounting-firms-a-risk-to-world-economy/

https://www.michaelwest.com.au/pwc-gives-bludgers-a-lesson-in-corporate-welfare/
Nmag
Posts: 858
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

You say "increased competition", they say "increased cooperation". It's really quite easy to explain.


Can someone explain how it's not increased competition please?
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39309
Location: Other International

Can someone explain how it's not increased competition please?
that's not what I said, but Prisoner's dilemma is kind of where I'm going with this. i.e., you're better off accepting a small increase in competition if it results in generally greater equality for everyone, because the long term result of competition at the expense of cooperation is, surprise surprise, a bad outcome for everyone except a few people at the really pointy end. (This has been demonstrated many times in history.)

Arguably you have the right as an Australian to say "well f*** the rest of the world I only care about Australians and immigrants can go f*** themselves", but at least be honest about it. I guess I'd just say, bear in mind there are always going to be a lot of people on your "side" (whatever that is) that depend on immigration to keep their businesses and lives afloat in some way, whether or not they realise it.
fpot
Posts: 26089
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

My turn to post drunk. What's happening in Manus is some unspeakable bulls***. The sort of thing people need to pay attention to.
FaceMan
Posts: 12934
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
https://i.imgur.com/vvpAzk6.jpg
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39311
Location: Other International

hey how can we make this really important issue partisan so we can stop talking about solving it and instead spend all our time finger pointing in the most divisive way possible

don't worry, the russians have it covered already

edit: I'm going to bookmark this response because I think it will come in handy
Raven
Posts: 9529
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
My turn to post drunk. What's happening in Manus is some unspeakable bulls***. The sort of thing people need to pay attention to.


I know right? It's almost as though the international laws around first country of asylum - the laws tthat say that to be eligible for asylum you must claim it in the first country you pass through that it is available in - was ignored! Hell, from the way people are supposedly being treated on Manus, you'd think guards were going around with sticks beating others, and withholding food from them to starve them to death... wait, no, that's the people living there doing that. Hm.

Wait so if I rock up to another country and treat myself and others like s*** to make for awesome media coverage, can around get around their immigration laws? For any country I want?
taggs
Posts: 6528
Location:

I stopped reading where it claimed the big 4 self insure and that this was some sort of risk to the global economy. That is patently and demonstrably incorrect, big 4 have plenty of insurances in place including professional indemnity insurance. In fact, many clients require this before engaging them.

Not surprised though, that's the same Michael West who when writing about the "fair" amount of tax companies pay was unable to distinguish or understand the difference between accounting profit and taxable income in previous articles some time back.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39312
Location: Other International

I stopped reading where it claimed the big 4 self insure and that this was some sort of risk to the global economy. That is patently and demonstrably incorrect, big 4 have plenty of insurances in place including professional indemnity insurance. In fact, many clients require this before engaging them.
So I thought the insurance comment was quite interesting because I'm currently working on a project in the insurance industry & now have more than a passing familiarity with it - so I thought it was extremely vague because [now I know!] there are sooooo many different types of insurance in different areas.

I find it staggeringly hard to believe they have no insurance, but I CAN believe they do self-insure on some aspects of their operations. But the article does not go into any more detail about what they claim they're self-insuring.
infi
Posts: 23823
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The biggest wealth transfer in modern history has occurred courtesy of stimulus and bank bailouts which were supposed to be for the people by big-government left-wing governments. The banks scared everyone, the govermments got spooked by a potential depression and mass unemployment, throw out helicopter money to prop up weak economies and the rich made a killing. It would have been far more beneficial (for workers) to allow the economy to reset, so that new industries would sprout faster.

Keep it up with the government intervention and the rich will get richer even faster than they already are.

Four Corners only had time to scratch the surface but national governments can't hope to stop this kind of off shoring unless they unite in multinational agreements to sanction non-complying countries. This already occurs in relation to certain ex-tax havens e.g. Switzerland but others simply do not care if they are cut off, because they use half way (half-compliant) countries to launder their money.

Australia could easily come down harder on domestically generated revenue by refusing off shore deductions (IP charges or non arms length interest charges). The government just needs to grow a set.

The recently enacted Multinational Anti-Avoidance Law barely starts to address tax avoidance by Multinats.
PornoPete
Posts: 2849
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

but I CAN believe they do self-insure on some aspects of their operations.


Even if they do, it doesn't follow they are threat to the global economy as a result. If its appropriately managed it would still serve its purpose.
paveway
Posts: 21398
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

trog with the sly CBA advertising
anonymousxvi
Posts: 37
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I don't agree with captialism, monarchism, socialism, communism etc i think we need to design a new society :D with rational ethics and based on truth.
taggs
Posts: 6529
Location:

I find it staggeringly hard to believe they have no insurance, but I CAN believe they do self-insure on some aspects of their operations. But the article does not go into any more detail about what they claim they're self-insuring.


Running a business involves taking on a measure of risk in order to earn a return. Every business “self-insures” some (actually most) aspects of their operations because if you were able to perfectly insure every risk a business was exposed to then it logically follows you’re exposed to zero risk. If you can earn a return on a risk free operation that’s what’s known as arbitrage and you would (and should!) do as much of that activity as you possibly could (i.e. infinity) until you can’t earn a return anymore. Arbitrage is more commonly seen as a finance concept but this example where a business could perfectly insure every risk and still earn a return would be a physical/business sort of arbitrage.

Obviously that’s a silly and unrealistic scenario but I raised it just to make the point that all businesses predominantly “self-insure” risks, or bear risk, in order to go about their core business and earn a return. Self-insurance (i.e. bearing risk) in and of itself is a totally normal, and fundamentally necessary, part of business.

The reason I raised professional indemnity insurance in particular in my previous post is that is the sort of insurance that protects professionals when the results of advice they give in a professional context results in them being involved in litigation. A related insurance is public liability which protects against being found liable for negligence or providing negligent advice.

As you might imagine, big 4 firms purchase significant amounts of these sorts of insurance to protect against these risks. Many clients insist on seeing evidence of these policies being in place such as current insurance certificates before engaging big 4 firms for services. Thus when the article redhat linked claims that the big 4 pose a global financial risk because they could be sued for taxation advice they give and that they would collapse because they don’t insure against this risk I pointed out that this is not correct.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39315
Location: Other International

Obviously that’s a silly and unrealistic scenario but I raised it just to make the point that all businesses predominantly “self-insure” risks, or bear risk, in order to go about their core business and earn a return. Self-insurance (i.e. bearing risk) in and of itself is a totally normal, and fundamentally necessary, part of business.
Right; in the context of the article, I assumed "self-insure" meant actually to have an internal insurance group that literally does risk analysis and applies it as a cost centre to their operations - this seems like the kind of thing a giant well organised megacorp that specialises in finance would do. But your explanation makes more sense & I guess is way more likely.
Many clients insist on seeing evidence of these policies being in place such as current insurance certificates before engaging big 4 firms for services.
Even at the small scale I've operated this has been a requirement on some contracts I've worked on.

I am more interested in the type of insurance I'm working on at the moment - trade credit insurance. I suspect it's less of a big deal for big-4 types because they can probably more effectively do due diligence before engaging so risk of non-payment is lower, but I'm sure it still happens. Almost certainly though a failure here wouldn't trigger the collapse of one of them, let alone all of them.

edit: the biggest threat to the big 4 is fintech/regtech and I hope they all go out of business together, like I do for all accountants. Sorry accountant friends but machines should be doing my tax automatically and I never should have to think about it ever.
Nmag
Posts: 859
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

I believe there are naive, well meaning people who live in regions relatively unaffected by the social challenges mass immigration (from 3rd world particularly) can have on society.

Save the trees!
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39317
Location: Other International

You are conflating so many issues in your post though dude. You're implying there's just one group of clueless morons who want immigration without realising that it means they're going to be competing for jobs. The reality is though there are many pro immigration groups, with their own agendas or beliefs:

- the Birkenstock wearing hippie clueless commie socialist pinkos who think we should just let in anyone because hey, that's just like, their opinion, man
- the globally conscious well off person who realises how f***ing lucky they are who thinks maybe we can let a few people who are fleeing death squads from their own country and bombs that we are at the very least culpable in dropping on their children, because it's just the human thing to do
- economists and related types that look at population growth as an interesting number on a spreadsheet and realise that without immigration our population will decline
- small business owners and technology companies trying to carve out a new niche or build a new market and requiring skills that simply do not exist at all in Australia
- our farms and our billionaire miner class who desperately need more workers (often seasonal) because it's hard to find Australians to do that kind of work

On the other side what do we have?

- Hypocritical free market extremists who make a lot of noise about the importance of competition in solving all the world's problems, except in this case
- Hypocritical libertarians who believe that liberty should only apply to people who happened to immigrate to their country in one specific time window several hundred years ago and everyone else can go f*** themselves
- People terrified of religious extremist terrorists, despite the statistically clear fact that they are about a billion times more likely to die in their car on the way to work in the morning
- Racists
- People who claim not to be racists but don't want immigration because of various strawmen that ultimately resolve into one of the above classes, usually racism or some other form of generally clueless bigotry

edit: I should say, I probably fall into several of these groups to various levels, including some of the negative ones, and I suspect most people are the same

Fwiw "low-skilled imports", as you sneeringly and condescendingly call them, are the minority of the immigration that we get (last I checked I think something like 70% of immigrants to Australia are on a skilled migration path).
FaceMan
Posts: 12935
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

* N U K E D *

Reason: misrepresentation of events
Click Here to See the Profile for FaceMan Edit This Post Click Here to send FaceMan an email Users HomePage Message User
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39319
Location: Other International

* N U K E D *

Reason: f***it, why bother
Click Here to See the Profile for trog Edit This Post Click Here to send trog an email Users HomePage Message User
PornoPete
Posts: 2850
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

- People terrified of religious extremist terrorists, despite the statistically clear fact that they are about a billion times more likely to die in their car on the way to work in the morning


I mean I don't know why everyone got so worked up about shooting down MH17, doesn't everyone know you're much more likely to die falling down stairs than be deliberately shot down in a civilian aircraft? I could shoot down 50 more and it would still be much less likely than death by falling down stairs so no biggy right?.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2160
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2017/11/11/how-the-greens-drive-policy/15103188005492?

Even the Greens’ traditional enemies in the right-wing press now say so. To cite but one of many recent examples, a piece in The Australian last week rather begrudgingly acknowledged the Greens as the only party to have acted “honourably” in the matter.

“This,” it said, “is what it has come to: compared to the Coalition and the opposition, the Greens – yes the Greens – are one of the few adults in the room.”

On Wednesday evening this week, Di Natale was invited onto Andrew Bolt’s show on Sky News, where the host was in furious agreement with his guest that
the two major parties were involved in a “protection racket”.


Greens to the rightwing media be all like:
https://media1.tenor.com/images/9bd068fb30734ffb332b1e53005ae19a/tenor.gif

Jesus, auspol even more is hilariously bad than usual atm.

Is any meaningful legislation going to be passed before xmas?
Tollaz0r!
Posts: 18486
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Hey nMag, I get the impression you have some solid schizoid features, do you?
Vash
Posts: 5586
Location:

Yep Redhat, the way the Greens handled the citizenship mess deserves respect.
It just shows they are more deserving of leading us than many in Government. When a politician doesn't cling onto power scratching & screaming, it's telling.
infi
Posts: 23826
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

it's great when the govt doesn't pass laws - it means less s*** ideas to raise taxes for.
Nmag
Posts: 860
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

There are other ways of increasing population. We are offering too much free stuff, and thus attract people who seek free stuff.

Tollaz0r!, personal comments like that are an indication that the 'triggering' you are experiencing is inhibiting your ability to articulate.
paveway
Posts: 21400
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Tollaz0r!, personal comments like that are an indication that the 'triggering' you are experiencing is inhibiting your ability to articulate.


i don't think it was a personal attack so much as an observation of your c***ish posting
Nmag
Posts: 861
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

Another resorting to personal comments. I'll tone things down, so they are less triggering.

So, who's been to a protest this year? or held a placard and chanted something? Anyone scaled a building?
paveway
Posts: 21401
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

yes you are the king of triggering people
fpot
Posts: 26091
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

We should call him TriggerDog.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2161
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

So, who's been to a protest this year? or held a placard and chanted something? Anyone scaled a building?

I think the last rally I went to was last year. It was to protest the nsw gov's war on cyclists.

Was tempted to go to the vote yes rally but it rained and I'm a fair weather activist.
Spook
Posts: 40860
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
hahaha
Nmag
Posts: 862
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


This stuff is tops for protests: https://www.bunnings.com.au/project-panel-900-x-600-x-5mm-white-corflute_p0390162

https://foodnstuff.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/coop10.jpg


Phooks
Posts: 3289
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Phooks
Posts: 3290
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Phooks
Posts: 3292
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

PornoPete
Posts: 2851
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Oh phooks.

Would you like me to respond so you can trigger yourself?

Marx said capitalism was killing itself in 1830. Its 2017, so that means there is only 13 years to go until he has been consistently wrong for 200 straight years.
Phooks
Posts: 3295
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

yeah lol activists are dumb. also learning

sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7759
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Phooks is off his meds again
Phooks
Posts: 3296
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Thanks for your input slaps
PornoPete
Posts: 2852
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

yeah lol activists are dumb. also learning


oh follow that up with "what are universal human rights".

No please inform me what universal human rights are and what has been marxism's contribution to them phooks? (hint it has been how to violate them as egregiously as possible)

you know because activists aren't dumb or something.

hey here is something for you to trigger yourself over. Keating introduced the disability discrimination act with the express purpose of getting disabled people off welfare. It was overtly driven by achieving budget savings.
infi
Posts: 23830
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

awesome work posting videos. beats actually articulating a point.
Vash
Posts: 5588
Location:

PP is triggered hard by Phooks posts lol.

awesome work posting videos. beats actually articulating a point.


Certainly beats the quality of your posts
infi
Posts: 23831
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

another absolutely bullseye, on fire.
Phooks
Posts: 3297
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Indigenous rights, gender equality, poverty reduction, corporate transparency, LGBTI+ rights, veganism, environmental activism, unionisation, wage redistribution, arms reduction, international foreign aid, breaking up oligopolies, or literally any other policy held by the greens? nah, those loony lefties have it all wrong.

What we really need is LESS civil disobedience and rubble rousers. LESS government spending (especially in recession). MORE protection against those illiegals comin from the boats. priority #1 right there. military is our best option . why have manus at all? just turn the boats away. their responsibility.

We need to go back to the better times. When men were real men, able to earn what they deserved, and women were real women, away from these radical gender theory types coming for our children under the guise of 'anti-bullying programs'. How can a boy be a girl anyway? it's against traditional values aka the bible(tm).

Anyway like I always say I'm proud to be white #whitelivesmatter
infi
Posts: 23833
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

that's a fairly incoherent set of values you have espoused. the only thread to it is (what a surprise!): identity politics. you sound just like a (what a surprise) generally disgruntled unemployed protestor.
Phooks
Posts: 3299
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

So you accuse the only policy-relevant post in the last 20 posts of identity politics, then attack me based on an imagined identity? Boy I hope you're trolling or stupid.
infi
Posts: 23834
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Let me guess: you think the solution to all the woes you mentioned is more laws, bigger government, more social programs and payments and more taxes on the rich.

I think you left out Islamaphobia. Sorry I used "left" trog.
Vash
Posts: 5589
Location:

Oh god save me from this libertarian nonsense

https://i.imgur.com/22mv2vv.jpg?2
PornoPete
Posts: 2854
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

So you accuse the only policy-relevant post in the last 20 posts of identity politics


Gee I hope you're talking about this

Keating introduced the disability discrimination act with the express purpose of getting disabled people off welfare. It was overtly driven by achieving budget savings.


Because that was specific policy, with a clear explanation of the philosophy underpinning it.

this on the other hand.
Indigenous rights, gender equality, poverty reduction, corporate transparency, LGBTI+ rights, veganism, environmental activism, unionisation, wage redistribution, arms reduction, international foreign aid, breaking up oligopolies, or literally any other policy held by the greens? nah, those loony lefties have it all wrong.


Is you drinking hoping for attention again. or in short phooks got triggered. again.

You keep on plugging vash.

Here is another oneline triggering for you phooks.

away from these radical gender theory types coming for our children under the guise of 'anti-bullying programs'. How can a boy be a girl anyway? it's against traditional values aka the bible(tm).


Never trump newspaper the economist expresses concern the current state of the debate around transgender people throws children under the bus.

Notes clinicians who say the best course of action is to try to get children to accept their biological sex are at risk of losing their job.
Phooks
Posts: 3301
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The disability discrimination Act was not austerity.

The biggest issue trans children have to go through is the toxic attitudes towards gender dysphoria held by people like you

clinicians who say the best course of action is to try to get children to accept their biological sex are at risk of losing their job.


Jeeze I dunno probably because giving broad, sweeping advice to millions of people disregarding individual context on a hotly politicised issue is unbelievably unethical and stupid?
Phooks
Posts: 3302
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Let me guess: you think the solution to all the woes you mentioned is more laws, bigger government, more social programs and payments and more taxes on the rich.

I think you left out Islamaphobia


Thanks Trump.

I don't know where you get this anti-laws bulls*** from, as if laws and regulations or any standards of behaviour at all are evil, but guess what whether you like it or not A) government exists and paying taxes is for the good of society (& more accurately monetary policy) and B) in the face of falling consumer confidence and a failing economy the only thing that helps is stimulation and investment aka govt spending.

In a neoliberal market to maximise growth govt spending would ideally follow business cycles
PornoPete
Posts: 2855
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

The disability discrimination Act was not austerity.


Keating implemented it and he says otherwise. So yeah it was. Keating's attitude was people who can be working should be and the government should support that and not cut cheques just because. Go look at the wiki article, or read his biographies. He was unequivocal.


The biggest issue trans children have to go through is the toxic attitudes towards gender dysphoria held by people like you


You don't know my attitude toward trans children.

Jeeze I dunno probably because giving broad, sweeping advice to millions of people disregarding individual context on a hotly politicised issue is unbelievably unethical and stupid?


So I guess the fact that the overwhelming body of evidence suggesting that gender dysphoric children desist doesn't enter into it.

Anyway, you should line up some youtube videos. It's all you've got.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39328
Location: Other International

that's a fairly incoherent set of values you have espoused. the only thread to it is (what a surprise!): identity politics. you sound just like a (what a surprise) generally disgruntled unemployed protestor.
out of interest, how does 'identity politics' fit into 'arms reduction, international foreign aid, breaking up oligopolies'?

When the only tool you have is a hammer, etc. Everything is 'identity politics' to some degree. I hope the irony of you complaining about 'identity politics' after steadfastly and blindly supporting the Liberals for so many years regardless of their position (until recent times when they've become a international laughing stock) is not lost on you!
PornoPete
Posts: 2856
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

how does identity politics' fit into 'arms reduction, international foreign aid, breaking up oligopolies'


Oh good so it was a
fairly incoherent set of values


I wonder if we can get phooks to admit he is suffering cognitive dissonance and

whats the word, I think you used 'sneeringly' (though I think I like 'lets put on our condescending c*** pants')

call that progress.
infi
Posts: 23835
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

blindly supporting the Liberals for so many years


I supported them while they were consistent with my values. Then I didn't support them when they didn't... that's called evaluating merits. Just like you became a Greens voter.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39331
Location: Other International

I supported them while they were consistent with my values. Then I didn't support them when they didn't... that's called evaluating merits. Just like you became a Greens voter.
but did the Liberals values change... or yours? *thoughtful face icon*
fpot
Posts: 26093
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

but did the Liberals values change... or yours? *thoughtful face icon*
This would assume infi is capable of change.
infi
Posts: 23836
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

but did the Liberals values change... or yours? *thoughtful face icon*


both - I value strong IR laws and balanced budgets (welfare cuts etc). Once Libs stopped down that path they lost me. So I guess a bit of both.
Phooks
Posts: 3303
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


Don't forget your only other value infi, 'free speech'. Bet you're a real inspirational leader in your workplace with such egalitarian views

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/20/40-of-millennials-ok-with-limiting-speech-offensive-to-minorities/

'But what if I just absolutely have to say offensive things about minority groups publicly?! It's my only source of joy. What do you MEAN I can't call em blacks or Abos?! What r ya f***in supposed to call em?'


Sir Redhat
Posts: 2164
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

This thread needs more spicy memes.

https://i.imgur.com/vKzmaIf.jpg
Nmag
Posts: 863
Location: Sydney, New South Wales

One day the Greens might run the country and fix things.

lol
PornoPete
Posts: 2857
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

Phooks has managed to close the loop. He can just feed himself one line and be triggered. I hope you washed your hand after that phooks.
hardware
Posts: 11722
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Yeah, i can identify with infi's sentiment toward the Liberal Party - i too was once fairly pro-Liberal, but when they walked away from the Howard-style policies (middle class welfare, future fund, gun laws, strong aus manufacturing) and turn to economic globalisation, weak leadership and the watering down of medicare
sLaps_Forehead
Posts: 7760
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Is it just me or does Shorten come across as a shifty karnt?
Phooks
Posts: 3305
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

political discourse with memes, now at the easy-to-digest 4th grade reading level

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BfSk-kjP0YQ/UenR4yN5z2I/AAAAAAAAEmA/mVhiIJisnzE/s1600/carlin.jpg
Phooks
Posts: 3306
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwzIfO9CAAACVh6.jpg
PornoPete
Posts: 2858
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

now at the easy-to-digest 4th grade reading level


You sure you're going to be able to handle it then?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwzIfO9CAAACVh6.jpg

I know right. I mean I can't see why aboriginal people get so worked up about land rights. Their connection to the land is just a genetic accident...
Nmag
Posts: 864
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


This document was interesting to read over, it's for NSW. Would be interesting to see the Qld and Vic versions:

https://www.treasury.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2017-01/Budget_Paper_5_-_Intergenerational_Report_2016_-_full_report.pdf


Phooks
Posts: 3307
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I can't see why aboriginal people get so worked up about land rights


You can't? Shocking. I'm shocked. It's definitely just their frenzied national pride (Ala those right wing nutters).

Aboriginals are a single nation, right?
Phooks
Posts: 3308
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

PP/Nmag/infi, what are your opinions on vaccines?
Phooks
Posts: 3309
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Oh hey it's that pesky far left-wing lobbying group, the Australian Medical Association, coming to impose their crazy political views on everyone. Stupid doctors.

"It is our responsibility as a nation with a strong human rights record to ensure that we look after the health and wellbeing of these men, and provide them with safe and hygienic living conditions." Government spokesmen were not immediately available for comment. Australia's immigration policy, under which it refuses to allow asylum seekers arriving by boat to reach its shores, has been heavily criticised by the United Nations and human rights groups
https://scontent.fbne4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23659223_10214855363601730_6810742798342879377_n.jpg?oh=48709db55dfe44b64abdf34357a185db&amp;oe=5AA65D24
infi
Posts: 23837
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I've got no problem with vaccines. I do have a problem with undocumented unauthorised arrivals and people smugglers. Australia should exit the Refugee convention.
fpot
Posts: 26095
Location: Gold Coast, Queensland

Remember when you used to say the concentration camps were okay because at least the detainees were being fed, watered and sheltered? Now that isn't happening anymore, would you say you are more happy with the concentration camps or less happy with them?
infi
Posts: 23838
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

The visitors can leave at any time. The replacement housing is ready for them. Or they can go home and ask for a refund from their smuggler.
Vash
Posts: 5592
Location:

Careful Phooks, you might trigger PP again.
PornoPete
Posts: 2859
Location: Melbourne, Victoria

You can't? Shocking. I'm shocked. It's definitely just their frenzied national pride (Ala those right wing nutters).

Aboriginals are a single nation, right?


yeah ok so I guess you don't know what the kulin nation is. Shocking. Well not that shocking.

But look right wing nutters nationalism bad, aboriginal nationalism good. Keep it at 4th grade phooks.

"It is our responsibility as a nation with a strong human rights record to ensure that we look after the health and wellbeing of these men, and provide them with safe and hygienic living conditions."


No they can't be left wing, they think there is such a thing as national responsibility. Its like reading Stalin, Hilter and Goebbels all at the same time.
Viper119
Posts: 3327
Location: Other International

lol
Hogfather
Posts: 16828
Location: Cairns, Queensland

Refugees and homo marriage is all well and good, but can anyone explain proposed tax cuts against this?

https://i.imgur.com/jWl3Ug2.png

I'm all for tax cuts, money is fun, but don't we have to pay for the debt at some time? Isn't this just Government spending dressed up as tax relief?
infi
Posts: 23839
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I guess you would have to ask Anna the same question. When will the debt be paid. Governments are addicted to debt.
paveway
Posts: 21413
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Pretty sure debt only grew under campbell newman as well. And that was after he booted all those people out of jobs.
infi
Posts: 23840
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Lol no pave do some reading bro
Phooks
Posts: 3310
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

^ironic for someone whose attitudes towards debt is 'debt is bad'
Phooks
Posts: 3311
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.
infi
Posts: 23841
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

$71b debt is good? It's costing Qld $1.7b per year. $1.7b is one whole Labor Qld Health payroll debacle. Probably not the best value for money argument.

So pitch me the alternative argument. What did we get for $71b of debt (going to $81b). All that Beattie, Bligh, Palaszczuk waste... you know what happens when interest rates go up? Ourt cost of borrowing already up due to loss of AAA credit rating.

We have no hope of ever paying it back. NSW has no debt.

Hog: a few thoughts on federal govt debt:

1. Senate blocks budget cuts
2. NDIS massive impost
3. Gonski unfunded
4. Submarines are they thinking
5. Offshore detention thankfully shrinking due to Soverewign Borders.
6. Personal home should be part of pension means testing.

Agree the company tax cuts should not proceed. (Nor Turnbull's dumb personal tax cuts thought bubble, but the top tax rate definitely needs to be pushed out or reduced - to lose half your income after $180,00 is a joke). Fixing the Federal govt debt will be way easier than Qld repaying $81b! (because Feds have taxation powers)
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39336
Location: Other International


Politics aside (I don't think Labor or Liberal will make an appreciable difference to our debt) I agree that it's getting to scary levels.

What did we get for $71b of debt (going to $81b).
Last I looked (it has been a while) I thought Qld was doing OK with surpluses in the last couple budgets - (e.g., http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-13/queensland-budget-coal-royalties-up-$1.5b-myebo-curtis-pitt/8115154 which has ~$1b surplus as target for 2017 - maybe it is out of date but first thing I could find?)
Agree the company tax cuts should not proceed.
who are you and what have you done with infi


Spook
Posts: 40877
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
i am all for proposed middle income tax cuts for myself and my family.

should be more of it!

Spook
Posts: 40878
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
actually it would be nice to get another stimulus!
infi
Posts: 23842
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

who are you and what have you done with infi


To me, there is not much point to company tax, because tax gets paid by the real person or trust which inevitably receives the dividends from a company. Companies cannot spend money on consumption, people do. Ideally company tax should be removed entirely but I don't see an argument in the short term to reduce it. Because it is just fiddling with the amount of dividends retirees get in their super fund.

I would much rather stronger enforcement of multinational companies who pay f*** all while enjoying our stellar legal and governance systems. Our company tax rate is worth it.

Once the structural deficit Labor created has been rectified taxes should go lower, starting with the top rate which is f***ing f***ing ridiculous.
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39337
Location: Other International

To me, there is not much point to company tax, because tax gets paid by the real person or trust which inevitably receives the dividends from a company. Companies cannot spend money on consumption, people do. Ideally company tax should be removed entirely but I don't see an argument in the short term to reduce it. Because it is just fiddling with the amount of dividends retirees get in their super fund.
I have been thinking along similar lines recently too. I haven't thought the whole way through it but abolishing company tax in favour of slightly increased taxes elsewhere seems preferable to me. I am all about simplicity these days.
I would much rather stronger enforcement of multinational companies who pay f*** all while enjoying our stellar legal and governance systems. Our company tax rate is worth it.
. Wholeheartedly agree, not sure how big a deal it is in Aus but I'm sure it's a factor. But short of massive international cooperation on this issue the likes of which the world has never seen (presumably because it's actively fought against by entrenched moneyed interests).
Once the structural deficit Labor created has been rectified taxes should go lower, starting with the top rate which is f***ing f***ing ridiculous.
I guess the top rate doesn't bother me because it needs to be higher at the pointy end. I'd be interested in your suggested/preferred tax brackets though.
infi
Posts: 23843
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

30% up to $350k
40% after, maybe 35%

I like the US tax rates.
Sir Redhat
Posts: 2165
Location: Sydney, New South Wales


$71b debt is good? It's costing Qld $1.7b per year. $1.7b is one whole Labor Qld Health payroll debacle. Probably not the best value for money argument.

So pitch me the alternative argument. What did we get for $71b of debt (going to $81b). All that Beattie, Bligh, Palaszczuk waste... you know what happens when interest rates go up? Ourt cost of borrowing already up due to loss of AAA credit rating.

We have no hope of ever paying it back. NSW has no debt.


Just have a housing boom and collect 4.5% on every million dollar s***box. Simple!

Then you can have some policies like this!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-20/nsw-government-announces-free-car-rego-for-toll-road-users/9168264

The greens $1 public transport policy is truly the crackpot thing though.
Spook
Posts: 40879
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
starting with the top rate which is f***ing f***ing ridiculous.


nah, its fine.

and im super interested in something like that for qld.

id quite happily not pay rego to use tolls. (now that my work is beyond a tolled road)
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39338
Location: Other International

Are the tollroads government owned in Qld ? I thought they were private enterprises. I'd be super unhappy if we were to start propping up those companies at the expense of taxpayer funded roads
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39339
Location: Other International

30% up to $350k
40% after, maybe 35%

I like the US tax rates.
you hate government debt, but you like the US tax rates? thoughtful face

edit: btw this infographic from NYTimes on the proposed Republican tax cut bill is pretty well done. They will lead to an addition $1.4 trillion with a t dollars deficit according to projections. Maybe if they axed their biggest social welfare programme - the military - they could start reducing it.
infi
Posts: 23844
Location: Brisbane, Queensland


they are owned by Transurban

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-24/queensland-motorways-sells-for-7-billion-to-private-consortium/5408322

People thought Newman was the boogey man of privatisation when it was actually Labor all along

PS Labor sold of QR National too. And Energex retail.



you hate government debt, but you like the US tax rates? thoughtful face


sure it is very doable with massive reductions to government spending. cut middle class welfare, tighten eligibility for other welfare, slash public service. so much waste. even worse in America. whole departments can be abolished and no one would notice.

in Australia we couild easily delete the federal departments of health and education who dont employee a single teacher or doctor in front line work (there are plenty sipping coffee in canberra no doubt).
Phooks
Posts: 3312
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Companies cannot spend money on consumption, people do. Ideally company tax should be removed entirely 


I am more and more convinced you are a troll account
Phooks
Posts: 3313
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

I wonder if Trump came to Australia how long it would take for infi to suck him off
trog
AGN Admin
Posts: 39340
Location: Other International

in Australia we couild easily delete the federal departments of health and education who dont employee a single teacher or doctor in front line work (there are plenty sipping coffee in canberra no doubt).
Let me guess: the states should look after it?
hardware
Posts: 11724
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
I am more and more convinced you are a troll account
If so, he's been 'trolling' on qgl for about the same time as you've been alive
Phooks
Posts: 3314
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Hey that's great, maybe his generation can afford a house.

Probably not though. Because you know; taxes. Just like poor people, taxes are to blame for everything in infiland.

Oh hardware did you know companies cannot spend money on consumption? They are unable to buy things. Like, bananas? Nup companies can't buy em. Crazy
infi
Posts: 23845
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

you are rambling, you sound like a generally disaffected whinger.

Oh hardware did you know companies cannot spend money on consumption? They are unable to buy things. Like, bananas? Nup companies can't buy em. Crazy


that is correct! companies buy business inputs (which are deductions). if something is not an allowable deduction it will then form part of the profit that must be distributed by dividends to shareholders, who then use it for consumption (holidays, houses, boats, hairdos, psychotherapy *cough*).

you seem partially intelligent but quite often do not understand basic concepts. f***en bananas... what a head.
Phooks
Posts: 3315
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Sigh here we go.

Keep attacking an imagined identity. For someone who hates identity politics you sure rely on it a lot.

consumption

kənˈsʌm(p)ʃ(ə)n/

noun

1.

the action of using up a resource.



Q: do businesses consume?
A: infi is stupid

See, at least with PP I can have arguements, albeit barbed, that differ on idealogical bases because I can tell he wants the world to change in some way. You however are so pants-on-head stupid that is not worth talking to you about even the most basic of concepts. You think business activity should not be taxed not because, say, they don't form a separate legal entity with rights and responsibilities to society over and above shareholders, which they do, but because they 'dont consume' since they get taxed on net profits? And shareholders consume through dividends? Do you walk backwards too?

You advocate for poverty for your fellow man, you want military action against refugees and would harm our relations with strategic allies, you want tax cuts for only the richest. It would take years of formal education to fix your stupidity and years moreso to untwist your skewed, backwardsly-justified views.
infi
Posts: 23846
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

You think business activity should not be taxed not because, say, they don't form a separate legal entity with rights and responsibilities to society over and above shareholders, which they do, but because they 'dont consume' since they get taxed on net profits? And shareholders consume through dividends?


Many countries have very low or nil taxation rates. They rely on CONSUMPTION taxes. Income taxes are very inefficient and hard to police.

Companies create economic activity which in turn creates personal income via employment and consumption activity. Did you know that companies don't pay GST? yes they get input tax credits. I wonder why that is? It's because they don't consume goods (in economic terms you can either consume, invest or save).

Similarly, private investors get tax credits for all the taxed dividends they receive, because the only real taxpayer is a real person. This applies well with domestic companies and shareholders. Multinats need to pay their fair share before they send their profits of into the double dutch irish sandwich.

Good work on the dictionary thing, you almost won the internet.

I dont advocate povertry - I think the welfare has destroyed the sense of community and charity, and increased reliance on the government like a bunch of seagulls.
I dont agree with military action against refugees. I support a strong border force and repudiation of people smuggling which has killed so many people try to to enter out shores. We should leave the refugees convention because it is abused by organised people smugglers. Force must be used when people do not comply with these policies. Australina is in charge of its own borders, not the UN.
Dont even know what you mean re strategic allies.
I think the highest tax rate should be lower. I don't think it is fair for people to be paying half of their income to fund the state. Find another way. I don't think our role in life is to work to the have half of it stolen. Thaty is notr fair, people generally have a right to hold onto what is theirs.

You are very disaffected, you sound like other people owe you a living and enjoy having a whinge (well it is an Australian sport). I want to hear more about how you took some entrepeneurial financial risks and made a lot of money for yourself. Government should not be running our lives and gobbling aup our hard earned dollars. It should take a back seat and find ways to take less of our money.
paveway
Posts: 21414
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Not going to lie, infi sounds like he knows what he is talking about regarding company tax thing and phooks is just triggering without fully understanding.
taggs
Posts: 6531
Location:

It's basic economics that the incidence of company taxation necessarily falls on either shareholders, labour or consumers. Generally all 3 in differing proportions depending on the company, industry, labour market conditions, price elasticity of products it produces, etc. The burden of any given tax often falls on a different entity than the entity with the legal liability to pay the tax.

Infi is right, companies don't pay tax - people do.

Phooks is spazzing out like he always does without even giving infi the benefit of the doubt and trying to actually engage with him.
Phooks
Posts: 3316
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

and here come's the 'carbon tax increased my electricity prices' crowd with more infinite wisdom

Many countries have very low or nil taxation rates


Yes they do, quite like that 'double dutch irish sandwich' you hate, this is why tax havens exist in the first place. it's also why us lowering our own corporate tax rate won't work like it did for Ireland (see; race to the bottom)

Income taxes are very inefficient and hard to police


taxes are evil

Companies create economic activity which in turn creates personal income via employment and consumption activity


All hail the source of all economic activity - companies. Individuals? Public sector? Education? International programs? Industry bodies? NFPs? No, it's companies. Not only are companies the one and only font of all economic activity, but the gracious providers of employment too. companies do no wrong really. oh and companies do NOT consume nor invest in their activities

Did you know that companies don't pay GST? yes they get input tax credits.


for the things they CONSUME. dear lord

companies with a turnover over 80k/year have to register for gst.

this means they charge 10% for tax on their goods and services

input tax credits are for G&S companies buy with GST included. because they already have gst through their own business.

does your company not earn above 80k/yr infi? or is that just what you get your cheap accountant to tell the evil tax man when you dodge tax?

the only real taxpayer is a real person


unless that person owns businesses, business which are completely separate legal entities to that person. legal entities that have to pay tax. but please tell us all about your wide investment portfolio oh dividend master

It's basic economics that the incidence of company taxation necessarily falls on either shareholders, labour or consumers


Tax burden, the banner of regressive austerity policies everywhere. What is basic economics is that in a market economy businesses exist to make a profit and will pay the lowest wages possible according to the exact same factors you correctly outlined no matter what, which is basic business strategy. Lowering business taxes does not increase wages. You've been fed typical right wing propaganda that taxes are evil because they hurt profits and don't work because businesses will recoup them through you, which is not the case for the majority of industries alongside existing market distortions like minimum wage (see; keeping people out of poverty) and guess what, even if it was, that's often not a bad thing when it's on something like carbon tax because it can drive innovation towards more sustainable and other job-creating industries and, oh i don't know, stops the end of the f***ing world due to human-caused climate change
infi
Posts: 23847
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Some people wear their angry pants every morning. No point getting mad at facts.

Education, NFPs, NGOs don't pay tax either Phooks. But their employees do. Kind of reinforces the point the latter non human entities don't really pay (income) tax in the end. They pay a variety of other indirect taxes.

I'm going to blow your mind now: trusts don't pay tax either. The profits of a trust must be distributed and the beneficiaries pay the tax. I am sensing a theme here....
taggs
Posts: 6532
Location:

Tax burden, the banner of regressive austerity policies everywhere.


Tax burden, or tax incidence in economics jargon, is simply the concept that I explained earlier that the entity that bears the economic impact of a tax may not necessarily be the same entity that has the legal obligation to pay the tax. It really is just an economic concept used in both theory and application – there’s no politics behind it and it has nothing to do with “regressive austerity policies”.

Here’s a paper published by the Commonwealth Treasury modelling the welfare gain to labour and capital under a modelled decrease in the company tax rate of 1% (under the assumptions of this model ~2/3 goes to labour and ~1/3 goes to capital – different assumptions can give different results and the question is not settled in the literature). But notice how 0% of it goes to “companies”? Are you starting to understand the point yet?

If you aren’t, here’s a report by the Productivity Commission on the incidence of the tax and transfer system in Australia and how it distributes income across population and time. The paper itself isn’t overly important but I want to quote a bit that might help you understand the concept:

All taxes, regardless of whether they are levied on enterprises or individuals, are ultimately paid out of individual earnings from labour, capital or land (see discussion of economic incidence below).


This is not “right wing propaganda”, as I said earlier it is basic economics. It was first year curriculum stuff when I was in undergrad.

What is basic economics is that in a market economy businesses exist to make a profit and will pay the lowest wages possible according to the exact same factors you correctly outlined no matter what, which is basic business strategy. Taxes hurt profits, so you've been fed typical right wing propaganda that taxes are evil and don't work because businesses will recoup them through you which for those same reasons is not always the case and guess what, even if it was, that's often not a bad thing when it's on something like carbon tax because it can drive innovation towards more sustainable and other job-creating industries


Mate you’re off the f***ing deep end here. I don’t know how you inferred any of this from my post or what connection your brain made to make you think this was some sort of logical response.

For someone who constantly tells others to be educated, do research and listen to experts you sure are quick to do anything but when you (wrongly) think people are attacking your political beliefs. Take a breath and admit there might be some things that you don’t know as much about relative to other people, even infi. It’s good for you.
Phooks
Posts: 3317
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

There's no politics behind tax burden? Try the LNP platform for the last 20 years. I do appreciate your articulation and referencing of your points (links broken?) and I am keen to read more about it, but we're in the politics thread mate, pick a side.
system
--
Not a new post since your last visit.
New Post Since your last visit
Page: < 1 2 3 4 ... 8 9 10 11 >
Back To Forum
Advertise with Us | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
© Copyright 2001-2017 AusGamers Pty Ltd. ACN 093 772 242.
Hosted by Mammoth Networks - Australian VPS Hosting
Web development by Mammoth Media.