Hey all,

Found this while reading about the London Riots. Some student I assume is filming the Riots and uploading them in parts.

http://www.youtube.com/user/STUDENTPROTESTLONDON

all the videos are from an old protests except one as far as i can see.

I've been reading "www.news.com.au" and they have been implying that its because of ethnic minorities & criminal gangs.

i think its probably closer related to the issues egypt were having.

In Egypt, discontent with life in the autocratic, police state has simmered under the surface for years. But there has also been growing discontent over economic woes, poverty, unemployment, corruption and police abuses.

From what i can tell this all started because the police killed someone? Who was it that predicted events like what we saw in the middle east to occur in western countries..

my guess is that America will be next, possibly followed by japan.

London riots: the third night – live coverage

Link

• Disturbances ongoing in Hackney, east London • Looting spread to Enfield, Brixton and Walthamstow • Home secretary criticises "sheer criminality" • Blackberry messenger used to co-ordinate trouble • Acting Met chief promises 'robust' response

I've been reading "www.news.com.au" and they have been implying that its because of ethnic minorities & criminal gangs.

i think its probably closer related to the issues egypt were having.



From what i can tell this all started because the police killed someone? Who was it that predicted events like what we saw in the middle east to occur in western countries..

my guess is that America will be next, possibly followed by japan.

your guess would be as wrong as your post generally.

its low socio-economic neighbourhoods with high populations of black/immigrants. they were just looking for a reason to riot.

seriously, how does one reconcile protesting the death of a black brother at the hands of a white police with the wanton destruction and looting of small family business - link ? You can't. It shows that the protests have nothing to do with the death, it is just rioting and looting for the sake of it.

When Riots happen in Syria its because Syria is a Dictatorship.
When Riots happen in England its because of violent criminal youths.


http://i.imgur.com/9Ky3H.jpg

i think its probably closer related to the issues egypt were having.

No, it's pretty much a repeat of the Broadwater Farm riot of 1985.

what are they protesting?

its low socio-economic neighbourhoods with high populations of black/immigrants. they were just looking for a reason to riot.

yep, thats pretty much the direct description the UK government gave for the issue.

Libya blamed the same thing and drugs too i believe.

how does one reconcile protesting the death of a black brother at the hands of a white police with the wanton destruction and looting of small family business

because the death was the tipping point, and the price of bread matters even to black people.

People looking for an excuse to riot? look at Canada, hell, look at Crunnulla riots, a day later, things cooled down. This is now day 3, and the UK government is enlisting 300 more police to help.

lol @ Japan rioting

It's completely unacceptable. They should bring in tanks and start crushing people.

It's very bad. I have a bit of family and friends in and around London and reading some of the posts that their friends are putting on Facebook is not good. Here's one example:

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7449/unleddvz.png

As usual, boston.com is quick on the draw:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/08/london_riots.html

because the death was the tipping point, and the price of bread matters even to black people.

let them eat cake.

tipping point? no. It was catalyst. It was used excuse to engage in destructive, anti-social and criminal behaviour by the lowest dregs of society. There is no justification. Their total lack of respect for property is disgusting. "Innocent"* black shot by police? what about the innocent citizens property destroyed. What about the public property vandalised. What about the innocent tax payers footing the bill?

Your argument is as weak as your intellect.

*innocent as one can be with a gun drawn in a police arrest for weapons charges

To be honest, live ammo should be used on them.
From machine guns... Really really big machine guns.

Its not just Muslims/east Europeans Ive seen plenty of White Pommies rioting too.
Its not a race/multicultural issue.

Is America next ?
Rioting with guns ?

oh f*** off lateral, it's a bunch a deads***s doing what they do best, being deads***s.

I have a mate in Croydon atm, his old ladies place got fire bombed. He also watched a 12yr old crash a stolen vauxhall, lulz.

oh f*** off lateral, it's a bunch a deads***s doing what they do best, being deads***s.

I have a mate in Croydon atm, his old ladies place got fire bombed. He also watched a 12yr old crash a stolen vauxhall, lulz.

Agree. They started Rioting for some reason, found it fun and haven't stopped yet.

Your argument is as weak as your intellect.

Rioters are bad and they are being destructives because theyz be naughty minorities with too much time on their hands and the government told me its because of them being too poor and stupid to do anything useful about it.

Like i said, if they got over it in a day then I'd say you were right. but they aren't. which means there is a real issue that needs to be addressed.

haha wow, ever think it's because the little c***s haven't bothered to go home for three days?

you are seriously stupid.

oh f*** off lateral, it's a bunch a deads***s doing what they do best, being deads***s.

oh, a bunch of deads***s that have no access to real weapons and yet the police are still powerless to control them? i think the sutuation is more widespread than what you're giving it credit.

map of riot incedents

doesn't look like an isolated incident to me.

http://imgur.com/KVvgW - smart guy.

But I guess he's fine - good luck having those white police in London catch him. To them, those black guys all look alike! :P

yeah the day America riots en masse will be one scary event. and it doesn't appear too far off the horizon. Perhaps thats why the government is scared to widely cut expenses? Majority of its population own guns.

oh, a bunch of deads***s that have no access to real weapons and yet the police are still powerless to control them? i think the sutuation is more widespread than what you're giving it credit.

map of riot incedents

doesn't look like an isolated incident to me.

Widespread deads***s, not isolated.

Police could clean the streets in short order but they have rules to follow re. weapons as well. They aren't permitted to just open up on lightly-armed citizens. The PM is flying home and I'd expect an executive order re. martial law for the London Burroughs very shortly.

It's spread to Liverpool and Bristol. Infact, the building I lived in, in Stokes Croft is on fire.

haha wow, ever think it's because the little c***s haven't bothered to go home for three days?

you are seriously stupid.

by that logic i must be hundreds of times smarter than the London police force who are unable to control a crowd of "just bored" little c***s?

At the end of February 2010, the MPS employed 52,111 personnel. This included 33,258 sworn police officers, 4,226 Special Constables, 14,332 civilian police staff, and 4,520 non-sworn Police Community Support Officers.[6] This makes it the largest police force in the United Kingdom by a significant margin, and one of the biggest forces in the world.[11]

how can 30 000 police not control rioters?

how can 30 000 police not control rioters?

Police sometimes fail to control widespread rioting. They just aren't equipped to deal with it beyond small isolated pockets.

As mentioned, martial law is the next step which will clean things up in short order.

my guess is that America will be next, possibly followed by japan.

Wait, why japan? They're a pretty peaceful country internally since Tokyo capital? Also what would they riot over? Their yen is remaining strong, their depression isn't something new; it's been going on for more than a decade now.

Hardly like a protest would be much more than a party for more than 10 years in a slow decline..?

Of course I'm not following much about these things, so maybe you can expand a little on what you meant now that my interest is peaked?

When one group is intent on breaking the law, a peaceful law abiding police force will struggle.

From what i have seen on tv, it's mostly black and asian youths rioting. The areas are mainly poor areas. 1 reporter said they were screaming at police "racist! you know you are all racist"

Looks like "racism" is going to be used once again to justify criminal acts.

how can 30 000 police not control rioters?

Because for some inexplicable reason they generally don't want to shoot them or cause them undue bodily harm. Also not all police are on duty all the time - other things are happening in London that require police attention.

Eventually they'll catch enough of the mob so that they can no longer be a big enough threat and then it'll be reduced to a handful of these f***wit criminals that should be easier to deal with.

Rioting, burning cars, so many police injured they no longer enter certain areas.. It's only news because it's happening in London. In France it doesn't make the news any more, it's just part of Summer.

Two years ago the media would tally the burnt out cars each night in Paris, then the government told them it was just encouraging people, so they stopped reporting on it.

Because for some inexplicable reason they generally don't want to shoot them or cause them undue bodily harm. Also not all police are on duty all the time - other things are happening in London that require police attention.

Eventually they'll catch enough of the mob so that they can no longer be a big enough threat and then it'll be reduced to a handful of these f***wit criminals that should be easier to deal with.

f*** that, bring in a couple of SAS teams and let them go mental as a live fire training exercise.

Police arrested more than 160 people across London in a weekend of mayhem that started in the multi-ethnic, lower-income neighbourhood of Tottenham

Their yen is remaining strong, their depression isn't something new; it's been going on for more than a decade now.

just looking at their GDP though, how could their up and coming youth feel empowered to pay off the debts of their grandfathers?

Because for some inexplicable reason they generally don't want to shoot them or cause them undue bodily harm.

really?

really?

Dude, that was back in 07.. s*** like that happens here.. I have had it happen to me personally.. Cops are just f*** heads when they are bored.

It's spreading all over England -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-09/violence-spreads-to-more-uk-cities/2830898

Rioting has broken out in the English cities of Liverpool and Birmingham as police struggle to contain the worst riots in decades in London.

West Midlands Police confirmed they had made 87 arrests as youths ran amok in Birmingham city centre on Monday night, smashing shop windows and looting merchandise.

The force also said a police station in the Birmingham suburb of Handsworth had been set on fire.

Meanwhile, Merseyside Police confirmed they were dealing with unrest in the north-western city of Liverpool, with several cars set alight.

The Liverpool Echo newspaper said hundreds of youths had fought running battles with police, setting cars on fire and pelting police vans with bricks, bottles and stones.

"We will not tolerate any violence on the streets of Liverpool and have taken swift and robust action in response," police spokesman Andy Ward said.

There were also unconfirmed reports of disturbances in Bristol and Leeds.

Dude, that was back in 07.. s*** like that happens here.. I have had it happen to me personally.. Cops are just f*** heads when they are bored.

so if cops have no problem being aggressive and violent, why are they having so much trouble?

in fact, why are the riots growing?

Its easy to blame disfunctional youths, but riots like this don't just occur out of the blue and the propaganda machine is doing a wonderful job of keeping the rioters as "villans".

What do they want? even if they just want to be violent there has to be a reason WHY they feel like being violent.

f*** that, bring in a couple of SAS teams and let them go mental as a live fire training exercise.

i would love to resort to that solution sometimes.

lulz, thread has filled with the regular supremist's. I'm out.
queue debates over religion,race and everything not related to the op.

so if cops have no problem being aggressive and violent, why are they having so much trouble?

in fact, why are the riots growing?

Its easy to blame disfunctional youths, but riots like this don't just occur out of the blue and the propaganda machine is doing a wonderful job of keeping the rioters as "villans".

What do they want? even if they just want to be violent there has to be a reason WHY they feel like being violent.

If the police start to get more and more violet then the rioters are going to get more and more violent. Due to the police being outnumbered they can't afford that. When they get violent to a small group of people one night the small group of people can't do s*** back because they are just going to be arrested.

Good point, but personally I think it was just a snow ball effect of destruction.

What the hell is going on in the world? Man 2011 so far has been one s*** year. Just goes to show celebrating the new year is pointless.

lulz, thread has filled with the regular supremist's. I'm out.
queue debates over religion,race and everything not related to the op.

So we are suppose to ignore the facts and what is being reported?

The places where the riots initially started were in predominately black/asian poor london suburbs AND the criminals are using the old chestnut of "racism" to justify their criminal acts.

3.02am: Vikram Dodd writes that the Met police have tonight revealed they have used the new tactic of "armoured police vehicles", driven at people to push them back.

Vikram says they have declared it a success in Lavender Hill against 150 people, and police
say they may use it again.

who would have thought driving vehicles into protestors works.

oh wait, Egypt police thought it would

The places where the riots initially started were in predominately black/asian poor london suburbs AND the criminals are using the old chestnut of "racism" to justify their criminal acts.

there is one account of racism used to justify their acts. there are a lot of pictures of non-minority rioters too... in fact a disproportionally large selection of ethnicity for a minority / gang riot.

How's China looking lateral?

Dig up, stupid.

so if cops have no problem being aggressive and violent, why are they having so much trouble?

You are looking at individual cases of police brutality and wondering why all cops aren't like that in the same sentence. Surely you can see what is wrong with this.

Just like with citizens, there are good cops and bad cops. We hope that there are much much fewer bad cops than there are good cops. This seems like a logical thought process to me - because we don't live in a police state.

They have legally enforced restrictions about what they can do in the case of riots. This isn't Egypt or whatever where there's not going to be accountability if some cop hauls someone off into a corner and kicks 'em inna fork. It's London where someone will record it on their iPhone and then the cop will get busted on Facebook or something. There's more accountability and the cops will be aware of this.

If they wanted to just hose down these rioters with rubber (or real) bullets and restore order, they could do that in minutes. They're not going to do that unless things get REALLY CRAZY ASS OUT OF CONTROL (which it sounds like it almost is!!) and they need to take drastic measures.

Further, rioters have the advantage. They can f*** off to whole different areas, light a fire, and the police have to respond to a new location.

They've arrested over 200 people so far, they'll presumably just keep doing it until they get the message. This isn't like Egypt/Syria where's there's mass discontent - it's just the criminal version of a flashmob.

Personally I think everyone involved in a mob riot like this should get compounded sentences based on the damage caused by the mob.

there is one account of racism used to justify their acts. there are a lot of pictures of non-minority rioters too... in fact a disproportionally large selection of ethnicity for a minority / gang riot.

I am not convinced its a racial issue either, tbh, just beacuse there's not enough data.

I read conjecture by some Londonites that implied this is a reaction by organised crime in response to the shooting of one of their own - they're just getting their "army" out into the streets to make sure the police realise that going up agains organise crime will have serious consequences. No idea if that is true but it's an interesting theory.

How's China looking lateral?

long term unstable but ok for now?

This isn't like Egypt/Syria where's there's mass discontent

i didn't know you could have mass rioting without mass discontent? maybe video games are making the youths violent?

Obviously I'm attempting to take the perspective of the rioters mostly because i feel that censorship plays a role in the information we receive, its important to keep an open mind and we really should hear the other side of the story first before we condemn.

Just like with citizens, there are good cops and bad cops. We hope that there are much much fewer bad cops than there are good cops. This seems like a logical thought process to me - because we don't live in a police state.

yet the assumption is all citizens involved in the rioting are bad gang bangers causing problems for no reason?

ok faceman

i didn't know you could have mass rioting without mass discontent? maybe video games are making the youths violent?

There isn't mass discontent in London. The vast, vast majority of citizens are against the rioters?

i didn't know you could have mass rioting without mass discontent?

This isn't mass rioting on the order of what they saw in Egypt/Syria etc.

yet the assumption is all citizens involved in the rioting are bad gang bangers causing problems for no reason?

Well, there's no evidence to think otherwise and it's the most likely explanation in a first-world country when there are better ways of dealing with issues like this

No idea if that is true but it's an interesting theory.

I find even that hard to believe although sounds like one of the more likely reasons i've heard so far. Surely if it was gang related there would be significantly more violence towards the police?

Well, there's no evidence to think otherwise and it's the most likely explanation in a first-world country when there are better ways of dealing with issues like this

Additionally they don't appear to have asked for anything.

I'm pretty sure it would be world news if this was an organised event with an actual political or social agenda.

So the grub that was killed, shot at a Police officer, hitting him in the shoulder. Said Grub then gets hit fatally by return fire from a second Police officer......

Sounds like a common story out of the USA but these chavy worms like to think they deserve to protest so violently over one of their own filthy criminals. Just call in the army already.

some people just aren't satisfied by logic or rationale. it's much more interesting to imagine that there's something deeper and darker at play

Personally I think everyone involved in a mob riot like this should get compounded sentences based on the damage caused by the mob.

Agreed, and also have to pay for all damages especially to those doing it tough who have just lost their home or business because of this.

to imagine that there's something deeper and darker at play

like a gang war with the government?

Word on the street:

Bloke gets shot at (apparently whilst unarmed - but suspected he had a weapon)

2 bullets are fired. one hits and one misses.

The bullet that hit, went straight through his body and out the otherside and into a police officers radio.

Police did not contact parents of deceased man. Police did not give any details as to why he was shot.

His mates go down to protest at the police station..

Come nightfall.. riots are on!

still goin 3 days later and spreading to other cities due to bored kids wanting a part of the action.

--

something like that anyway

Surely i can't be the only one that feels we aren't getting the whole story?

Additionally they don't appear to have asked for anything.

I'm pretty sure it would be world news if this was an organized event with an actual political or social agenda.

which is weird because they appear to be gaining support?

Well, there's no evidence to think otherwise and it's the most likely explanation in a first-world country when there are better ways of dealing with issues like this

other than the fact that its growing in support and has been going on for days now?

Surely someone else has to be suspicious of the complete lack of communication about the issues surrounding the event? riots with no clear goal or meaning don't normally go on for days in a progressive first world country?

Bloke gets shot at

i was under the impression that MET police don't carry guns, and that they have special response police for this?

Agreed, and also have to pay for all damages especially to those doing it tough who have just lost their home or business because of this.

I really do feel very sorry for the poor business owner who now has to fill out an insurance claim form, we should make the poorest of the people in the country pay for damages they may not have even inflicted.

The official police story is he shot at a police officer and his bullet hit a police officer's radio. Then he was shot by police. The other story is the police fired twice, one shot missed and hit the radio. It wasn't the fatal shot that hit the radio in either scenario.

i was under the impression that MET police don't carry guns, and that they have special response police for this?

They were officers from Operation Trident, which deals with gun crime.

which is weird because they appear to be gaining support?

From whom?

Surely i can't be the only one that feels we aren't getting the whole story?

Faceman, probably.

I really do feel very sorry for the poor business owner who now has to fill out an insurance claim form, we should make the poorest of the people in the country pay for damages they may not have even inflicted.

If you think that insurance covers this you are more retarded than you appear.

Many affected small businesses will not survive, insurance claim or not.

i was under the impression that MET police don't carry guns, and that they have special response police for this?

He was shot by 'Trident' which is the Metro gun crime unit that deals with the black community.

Surely i can't be the only one that feels we aren't getting the whole story?

I've been struggling to figure out exactly what the riots are about, and otherwise haven't had anything useful to say, but I too remain confused. It may actually just be looting - given how badly things went after something so minor as a hockey game in Canada, who knows, maybe people are capable of being douchebags on this scale without good reason.

I've been struggling to figure out exactly what the riots are about

Theres this thing called reading, should try it sometime.

No best-in-field anthropology dude has produced a peer-reviewed paper though.

Theres this thing called reading, should try it sometime.

As the press is saying:

The riots appeared to have little unifying cause - though some involved in the violence claimed to be motivated by government cuts to public spending.

It wasn't the fatal shot that hit the radio in either scenario.

Apparently it was:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3741274/Fatal-Mark-Duggan-shot-hit-police-radio.html

A BULLET fired at suspected gangster Mark Duggan by a police marksman went right THROUGH him, it was reported last night.
The round was said to have passed out and ended up lodged in the radio of a colleague of the gun cop.

The entry and exit of the bullet - known in policing terms as "over penetration" - raised new doubts over exactly what happened when Mr Duggan, 29, was shot dead by police last week.

Officers fired twice at the father of four in Tottenham but only one shot hit him.

Originally it was reported that he had fired first but uncertainty over the incident was growing last night.

This is really sad. Aaron Biber, 89, stands outside his shop. It was ransacked by rioters.
http://i.imgur.com/drYER.png

Really doubting they had any good reason for doing that.

arclore - You'll note they don't mention a source of the information, the article just says "A BULLET fired at suspected gangster Mark Duggan by a police marksman went right THROUGH him, it was reported last night."

Kill 50 of them (Couple of good sprays into a massive crowed) make it be known that death will come to rioters and they will stop pretty quick smart if you ask me..

These 12 year old drop kicks really have no reason to live if they do this for no apparent reason.

Ransacked by rioters? Or sacked by looters. There's a big difference - it sounds like the latter, in which case they're opportunistic f***bags taking advantage of the chaos, and not people protesting an instance of police brutality.

These 12 year old drop kicks really have no reason to live if they do this for no apparent reason.

Maybe that's the problem, in that society should never let a situation occur where some of its members have so little reason to care about themselves. Then again, I've known millionaires who smoke themselves towards an early grave, so it's probably not just a matter of having very little hope equalling self-destructive behaviour.

in which case they're opportunistic f***bags taking advantage of the chaos, and not people protesting an instance of police brutality.

Yeah exactly, it seems the majority may just be looters and f***heads not unlike the Canadian example, and probably others if I were old enough to remember.

I can't remember what I said to FraktuRe which was deleted. :/

Yeah it is THESUN of course which is pretty sketchy, but seems to reiterate what most other agencies are reporting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/a-dead-man-a-crucial-question-should-police-have-shot-mark-duggan-2334133.html

The Independent understands that the shrapnel being analysed was from a hollow-point or dumdum bullet found in the handset of a sharpshooter from Scotland Yard's elite CO19 firearms unit, whose officers use this type of ammunition.

--
But it was suggested yesterday that the 29-year-old was instead killed by one of two rounds fired by a CO19 officer who feared the target was about to open fire. Investigators are trying to establish whether it was the second of these two bullets were struck the police team member's radio.

Evidence that the father-of-four did not brandish a firearm and that a CO19 officer came close to killing one of his colleagues will only worsen the tensions that have brought violence and looting to the streets.

So I guess there could be a cover up or everything may come to light. I don't really care anymore though cause the whole situation is pretty dumb.

If you think that insurance covers this you are more retarded than you appear.

Many affected small businesses will not survive, insurance claim or not.

Exactly, and I'm sure being in a poor area I'm sure many wouldn't have insurance at all.

Lateral you really are a f***wit.

Tell me why there is so much civil unrest in London then that is also spreading throughout the uk? The excuse of "people are just being douche bags" isn't going to cut it. people being douche bags riot for a day and go back to their regular life when the alcohol stops flowing (eg Cronulla, Canada, pretty much any sporting riot).

f***ing awesome. I like that man hate his voice.

people being douche bags riot for a day and go back to their regular life when the alcohol stops flowing (eg Cronulla, Canada, pretty much any sporting riot).

you've made this point four times so far in this thread. i would be careful about basing your entire analysis/thread on this extremely questionable assumption.

riots aren't homogenous; there could be any number of factors causing the london riots to be longer or more severe than past riots in developed countries. i'm not claiming to have the answer but your armchair analysis isn't anywhere near as insightful as you seem to think it is.

also, your comment about insurance just makes you look like a stupid douchebag.

Tell me why there is so much civil unrest in London then that is also spreading throughout the uk? The excuse of "people are just being douche bags" isn't going to cut it. people being douche bags riot for a day and go back to their regular life when the alcohol stops flowing (eg Cronulla, Canada, pretty much any sporting riot).

Dude, don't you get it?

One group of people smash a bus stop. A group of people see that, think it looks fun and smash a shop window.. The group of people that smashed the bus stop plus yet another group of people saw them smash the shop window. They all go burn down a city.. Snow ball effect of destruction.

They are all young kids just want in on a "fun" - The riot might have started as something, as people have said a dude getting shot by cops but there is no underlining reason for so many people to be rioting it's just human nature to cause drama and kill s***.

If you think that insurance covers this you are more retarded than you appear.

amid the requests to open fire on 12 year old's and I'm called retarded because I'm mocking the plight of the business owner? attacking business owners isn't fair just because they are there, but neither is attacking citizens revolting based on the action of a few.

Door trolling?

The police have provided their reasoning and they're the authority on criminals.

the police are clearly too invested to be considered "impartial"

One group of people smash a bus stop. A group of people see that, think it looks fun and smash a shop window.. The group of people that smashed the bus stop plus yet another group of people saw them smash the shop window. They all go burn down a city.. Snow ball effect of destruction.

I think the difference may be that to some of us, that is a genuinely foreign concept, I can't imagine doing it, so I (and perhaps he) find it hard to consider a real possibility. But, as I've said, Canadian riots - I still don't understand the motivation, at least only barely if I do.

Door trolling?

Door, Hog, etc, are responding to me with those (or baiting, rather).

f***ing awesome. I like that man hate his voice.

its actually a woman :/ haha

I think the difference may be that to some of us, that is a genuinely foreign concept, I can't imagine doing it, so I (and perhaps he) find it hard to consider a real possibility. But, as I've said, Canadian riots - I still don't understand the motivation, at least only barely if I do.

Just stupid young kids in my opinion. In high school you saw a fight.. You ran up and watched like everyone else then a couple of hero types jump in and try and stop it and it becomes a bigger fight. One group of kids sees a kid from another group hit one of theirs then it's all on. Same concept really.

Assuming the riots ORIGINALLY started because a cop shot a guy.
Rioters outside the cop shop with signs being harmless, a few more people join in because it is harmless, a few STUPID drop kick kids join in and throw a brick threw a window more kids see and join in as well (To cause drama) Most of the people from the original riot are prob at home watching it on TV.

One group of people smash a bus stop. A group of people see that, think it looks fun and smash a shop window.. The group of people that smashed the bus stop plus yet another group of people saw them smash the shop window. They all go burn down a city.. Snow ball effect of destruction.

Excuse me? i certainly don't feel the need to destroy s*** just because someone else does. are there more Londoners that feel this way in comparison to every other country in the world?

or maybe they actually have a good reason to riot.

it's amazing that you think the rodney king incident is a good reason for that kind of behaviour

Excuse me? i certainly don't feel the need to destroy s*** just because someone else does. are there more Londoners that feel this way in comparison to every other country in the world?

or maybe they actually have a good reason to riot.

Not talking about you or anyone for that matter. They are all young thug f*** head drop kicks that think they are powerful for over running a poor part of town.. Other f*** head drop kick kids caught on and then BAM a full blown wide spread riot.

Also, why do you keep linking unrelated stories? -.-

Excuse me? i certainly don't feel the need to destroy s*** just because someone else does. are there more Londoners that feel this way in comparison to every other country in the world?

or maybe they actually have a good reason to riot.

You just contradicted yourself.

Have a good friend living in Clapham Junction and just said to me this morning that it's depressing this is happening all around the place - seems like no real threat to her safety at the moment.

that old man should get all harry brown on their asses. after seeing that movie, im not surprised that something like this could happen in london.

Not talking about you or anyone for that matter. They are all young thug f*** head drop kicks that think they are powerful for over running a poor part of town.. Other f*** head drop kick kids caught on and then BAM a full blown wide spread riot.

Also, why do you keep linking unrelated stories? -.-

unrelated? riots are mirror of each other, except Rodney King didn't die, but the same sort of rioting related crap is happening.

it's amazing that you think the rodney king incident is a good reason for that kind of behaviour

I dunno, but if the cops start bashing up your family that would take away a good reason not to.

Same with this.

Excuse me? i certainly don't feel the need to destroy s*** just because someone else does. are there more Londoners that feel this way in comparison to every other country in the world?

Rioting is pretty common these days

amid the requests to open fire on 12 year old's and I'm called retarded because I'm mocking the plight of the business owner? attacking business owners isn't fair just because they are there, but neither is attacking citizens revolting based on the action of a few.

I didn't say they should shoot the 12 year old rioters, I said martial law may be required to clean it up. Please check and get back to me on that.

You mocked victims of crime and made a stupid remark about insurance being a magic wand. That's why I called you retarded.

I dunno, but if the cops start bashing up your family that would take away a good reason not to.

I know you can't be operating under the assumption that only rodney king's family were involved in the LA rioting, so the only real conclusion is that you're just being really, really stupid

again

I know you can't be operating under the assumption that only rodney king's family were involved in the LA rioting, so the only real conclusion is that you're just being really, really stupid

again

but they are all brothers, or cousins.

ey bro.

it doesnt take much to anger the unintelligent. especially when its a focused anger.

holy s*** - did this thread start ~5 hours ago?

Tune out for a little while and suddenly a 100+ post thread appears.

holy s*** - did this thread start ~5 hours ago?

Tune out for a little while and suddenly a 100+ post thread appears.

Start an argument on the internet s*** goes wild.

these threads bring out all the crazies

Hectic, I live in Shoreditch, just down from Hackney where it was pretty bad.

It's a shame to see the news distorting it. These aren't real riots, it's violent disorder and looting.

There's a cool twitter hashtag map here to track location: http://www.thelondonriots.com/

There's not a single Joe Blogs on the street attacking police or ransacking shops, it's all low socio-economic kids between the age of 12-25 taking the opportunity to trash s*** and steal stuff. The vast majority of general public are appalled/shocked and are denouncing it.

This vid of clapham shows you how young some of them are: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqj1N9qeWXI

The media and others are trying to make it about something, but really it has nothing to do with anything, completely unrelated to the peaceful protest over the police shooting of that dude in Tottenham, who was a known gang leader and police were returning fire, looters crashed the peaceful protest and turned it violent.

All these idiot kids are doing is damaging their own communities and worsening their stereotype which will make their own situations even more difficult.

*Edit

Just been reading through some of the other posts.

There's no mass discontent, as I said, it's small groups of looting kids, i.e. hundreds spread out in small pockets over various different parts of London, not thousands of everyday Londoners.

Trog is quite right, the police are very fearful of a heavy-handed approach, as it will incite the situation, they'll be accountable for their actions, and as lot of them are just kids!

The spread to other cities is the same profile, young criminal type kids. When you've got shopkeepers guarding their shops with baseball bats and denouncing the violence it's pretty obvious it's not a community uprising!

last edited by Viper119 at 17:10:07 09/Aug/11

This is going to make a mad video game!

Srsly though this should be a big wake up call to Australian police. Wtf r we going to do if this happens in Melbourne Sydney or Brisbane?

The cops will have no chance!

Time and time again the world is proving to me that the most disadvantaged and discriminated against group is the White male aged 18-30.

Cops would never put up with this s*** if the mobs were middle class whites aged 18-30

Cops would never put up with this s*** if the mobs were middle class whites aged 18-30.

last edited by sharkuul at 17:08:12 09/Aug/11

last edited by sharkuul at 17:09:03 09/Aug/11

Cops would never put up with this s*** if the mobs were middle class whites aged 18-30

Like in Vancouver, where the cops were accused of not acting fast enough? :P
http://www.twirlit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Vancouver-Riots-5.jpg

These aren't real riots, it's violent disorder and looting.

So on Hack on JJJ there was some Aussie bloke living in London that called up and basically said exactly that. Then shortly after some British bloke called up and said the Aussie bloke was full of s*** and start railing on about how the biggest bunch of criminals in the country are the police and ranting against the government, blah blah blah.

He sounded exactly like one of those facial pierced dreadlock wearing anti-establishment anarchist hippy douchebag types, basically condoning this sort of behaviour because "the cops have it coming".

Almost everything I've read and heard so far really backs up the opportunitstic criminal f*** theory. Especially when I hear that there's a stack of 12-14 year old kids involved in this process. Yeh, somehow I don't think their political thought processes are that well developed - they probably just come from families of scumbags where they're watching their relatives indulge in looting and they see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Its a bit like Flash Mob Crime that targets an individual store.
Theres been a few in some American Cities.
There is like 40-50+ teens swamp a store and steal stuff and run out.
There was a summit of Police Chiefs or something a few weeks ago and this type of crime was predicted to start increasing.

This is on a much larger scale though but the idea is similar.
The real worry would have to be teens watching it on TV and then the Copycat Effect kicks in, Behaviour Contagion.

Be interesting to see what happens tonight.
This type of thing could easily spread around the world in an instant too.

They need to put Jeremy Clarkson in charge of stopping the riots.

Perhaps it could be a Top Gear challenge, and his Fiat turbo Polizia car with the wheel spikes could make an appearance.

Almost everything I've read and heard so far really backs up the opportunitstic criminal f*** theory.

Seems so, unfortunately.

Just noticed Natalie Tran's take on it (super-amusing famous sydney girl from youtube).

Everyone on here from London better be at home and not participating in an incredibly ugly side of human pack mentality. Protesting for rights and stealing a plasma are very different things.

She is valid e-crush material. :P

I imagine all the rioters as Vinnie Jones

So on Hack on JJJ there was some Aussie bloke living in London that called up and basically said exactly that. Then shortly after some British bloke called up and said the Aussie bloke was full of s*** and start railing on about how the biggest bunch of criminals in the country are the police and ranting against the government, blah blah blah.

He sounded exactly like one of those facial pierced dreadlock wearing anti-establishment anarchist hippy douchebag types, basically condoning this sort of behaviour because "the cops have it coming".

i was actually listening to hack this arvo (listen to your heart on nova was too painful), and f*** me i was raging hardcore at that pommy loser saying the "police were the biggest gang in london";

argh

they better not postpone the everton tottenham game !

Charming guys. :/

^ Was just about to post that, f*** everything about that.

they better not postpone the everton tottenham game !

cancelleddddddddd.

This article is a good write up of the holistic picture/causes.

I don't understand why the cops just don't open fire on the looters and rioters. No one would miss these people if they were dead.

Because then all the bleeding hearts would make a big f***ing fuss.

So far all the footage I've seen the cops have been very restrained. I say just unleash them to f*** s*** up.

Send in the PSNI, they don't seem to have a problem opening up on rioters!

Yeah I think it's gone on long enough, let the police use a little more force. Rubber bullets, high pressure water, etc. Sending them out to stand there with a shield getting things thrown at them isn't working. Time to think of the Olympics.

Time to bring in the army I say

I think the forensic results are being released later (Tuesday their time).


last edited by m3nt4l at 22:34:23 09/Aug/11

I think the forensic results are being released later (Tuesday their time).
last edited by m3nt4l at 22:34:23 09/Aug/11

I've not been following this thread close but I assume you mean the forensics regarding the police shooting, if that's the case I doubt it will make any difference to the dicks rioting/looting, would only be a very small group of f***heads who really care about that. All I see is the dregs of society wanting to break s***.

More pictures from The Age.. would not mind CPR from hottie in #19.

Oh yeah, won't make a difference, I'm just curious as to the results.

It would have been more forgiveable if they had a theme song like this (take note future riot-planners).

So how/why did this all start exactly? All of a sudden London is rioting for the past week? Obviously I'm missing the reason.

From what I read a drug dealer shot at cops, cops killed him. Drug dealer had happened to be a father of four, media had no clue what to report so reported police shot young father of four ...

http://images.brisbanetimes.com.au/file/2011/08/09/2545591/london16.jpg

Let's hug it out, ok?

So how/why did this all start exactly? All of a sudden London is rioting for the past week? Obviously I'm missing the reason.

People are still trying to figure that out apparently. http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/anarchy-reigns-and-a-nation-struggles-to-understand-why-20110809-1il4a.html

So how/why did this all start exactly? All of a sudden London is rioting for the past week? Obviously I'm missing the reason.

"Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn." -- Alfred Pennyworth

"Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn." -- Alfred Pennyworth

Bit convenient that all of them appeared to have come from the same suburbs, I can't help but wonder if they're created rather than born. (edit: Not to suggest that their actions are ok, a quick bullet seems the best way to deal with some of these people at this point)

Anyway, scenes of looting are now spreading to Cornwall, according to reddit.

Looting is terri... Wait a second, I thought greed was good?

The riots started in Tottenham after some drug dealer was shot by the cops. Though most of what's popped up since then doesn't really seem related.

Hackers are threatening to release employee details of the Blackberry company if they release the logs of Blackberry users in the looting.
http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/blackberry-threatened-for-helping-uk-cops/story-e6frfkur-1226112101373

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen anyone make such a fool of themselves in a thread here as lateral has in this one. Having lived in the UK for the last couple of years and just by chance staying in London at the time of these riots I can definitely say that it's not some sort of anti-government popular revolt. There are many deep seeded sociological issues that have led to these situations being so easy to start and spread but I can assure you that it's not any sort of organised statement of discontent with an authoritarian government or any of that bulls***. This is not the Arab Spring spreading to western countries.

These are poor people struggling in a very tough financial times in a particularly hard hit country (albeit thankfully one that hasn't gone bankrupt). They are relatively disconnected from society as a whole, because of vast class divisions - the massive differences between the haves and the have-nots - and because they are part of tight-knit ethnic groups of immigrants, and because of many other reasons. But with that in mind, what has happened over the last couple of days has most definitely descended into opportunistic destruction and burglary. People see all these people on TV getting away with it so they think they can join in and get away with it too.

There have also been cuts to police funding and vast cuts to many services to get the nation's debt under control. Also personally I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of restraint was being shown by police this time around since every time they actually effectively deal with trouble makers such as these mobs (eg. the recent-ish protests about university fees that were hijacked by people with nothing better to do than cause trouble) they are chided for months about being heavy-handed. It seems like no matter how the police react to situations like these they are told it's all wrong, if they get everything under control then they were brutal and heavy-handed, if they don't then they're incompetent and ineffective.

I think one of the biggest problems is that so many people think of police as the 'bad guys', they don't think of police as part of the community but as a sort of enemy force to be battled against, but then I get the feeling people think that way in many countries, not just over here.

From Big Picture, such a great photo:

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/london_riots_update/bp19.jpg

Looting while having your photo taken by at least three people. These people are f***ing morons and I look forward to them all getting locked up after the fact.

f***ing pathetic. Hey look mum! I'm a thief and a rioting f***stick! aren't you proud?

Edit* - Oh and @lateral, Cronulla's rioting might have stopped after a day but the effects of it lingered for weeks, even months.
Hell, try telling the poor passer by that got bashed in the revenge attacks that it was all over.

I cant speak for other riots but in Cronulla's case the entire area was turned to s*** for months afterwards, economically and socially.

Losers, the bunch of them. If Cameron has the balls to crush these riots with the full force of the law he should come out pretty well. Most people are law abiding, these guys are the 1% who have no regard for civil order.

Heard a rioter interviewed on ABC news.
He said they were 'redistributing the wealth.'
Why didnt they just start up a Greens Party ?

The Mayor of London turned up at one of the areas hardest hit and the crowd kept chanting "Wheres your broom ?"

I saw a Police Station was set on fire last night.
Just imagine if these Rioters got their hands on some Police weapons ?

That guy with the shirts looks very White.

more photos

That guy with the shirts looks very White.

of course he f***in does, people can't honestly think that all the whities are being good boys and girls while the nasty blacks etc go looting? f*** me wake.up.

Losers, the bunch of them. If Cameron has the balls to crush these riots with the full force of the law he should come out pretty well. Most people are law abiding, these guys are the 1% who have no regard for civil order.

Oath.

Martial law + army + lethal force.

Thugs only understand thuggery.

call me a capitalist, but property crimes really get my goat. they are the height of disrespect and only serve to demonstrate one's waste of oxygen.

They should send in the army maybe?

Rubber bullets all round.

Listen to this:

http://audioboo.fm/boos/434411-leana-hosea-speaks-to-croydon-looters-on-bbcworldservice

prepare to headdesk

This is such an easy mess to fix up. You tell police they are free to shoot any rioters and looters and the ones who get away will be scared s***less to continue f***ing around.

LOL, trog. Talk about a bunch of scrubs.

Tear gas to disperse crowds. It's a no brainer. GIVE ME THE f***ING MICROPHONE I WILL HANDLE IT.

jeebuz @ trog's link....

we just showin' da rich people we can do what we want! yeh dats loovly dat is.

i can't believe those girls are that retarded about how society works.

& no, massacring them is not the answer... it's as out of perspective as their actions are. :|

This is such an easy mess to fix up. You tell police they are free to shoot any rioters and looters and the ones who get away will be scared s***less to continue f***ing around.

Then they end up just as bad as Syria or Libya.

we never said kill them. just brutally arrest and imprison them

we never said kill them. just brutally arrest and imprison them

A few of us did :P. Truthfully I'm not actually for shooting anybody, I just really really dislike s***bags like the ones who stole from the injured kid and set people's homes on fire. >_<

A few of us did :P. Truthfully I'm not actually for shooting anybody, I just really really dislike s***bags like the ones who stole from the injured kid and set people's homes on fire. >_<

shouldnt your statement be: "i really really dislake s***bags who participated in this." end of. I don't distinguish between stealing from injured kid, stealing tvs or stealing wedding rings of restaurant patrons.

I guess, they were just examples of the ones that particularly pissed me off.

Some of them may have actually been protesting, without looting or destruction, some.

I guess, they were just examples, of the ones that particularly pissed me off.

Some of them may have actually been protesting, without looting or destruction, some.

no one has complained of their right to protest. they could and can peaceably congregate in any public space to protest so long as their behaviour remains peaceful. that nas never been in question.

even the original protest was hardly peaceful.

LOL - check the UK amazon trends for sporting goods.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/movers-and-shakers/sports/

How come baseball is so popular in the UK the last couple days??

Now the English Defense league is forming a posse to police the streets because the police "are not doing a good job"
Here come The Vigilantes, White Vigilantes.
The EDL were praised by The Norway shooter.

Got to admire the spirit of the English

The Luftwaffe couldn't kill our London. The IRA couldn't kill it. Al Qaeda couldn't kill it. The benefit brats have no chance.

Here come The Vigilantes, White Vigilantes.
The EDL were praised by The Norway shooter.

I thought they were mostly Indian and Muslim citizens who have gone vigi to protect their suburbs?

The guy at 2:00~ is funny.... wearing his stolen sunglasses with the sticker on them.

Can explain to me why the army is not out there with full armour rolling down the streets?

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpoah9lGGl1r1qajlo1_500.png

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpo2nx0aNT1r1qajlo1_400.png

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpntrmPG3W1r1qajlo1_500.jpg

http://photoshoplooter.tumblr.com/

Can explain to me why the army is not out there with full armour rolling down the streets?

It's not the army's job, basically. See http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2011/08/lets-not-bring-in-army.html for more info. It's the police's job to deal with criminals.

Listen to this:
http://audioboo.fm/boos/434411-leana-hosea-speaks-to-croydon-looters-on-bbcworldservice

prepare to headdesk

"We're just showing rich people we can do what we want"

But whyyyyyyyy you stupid fool...
Go ahead - if you torch the streets in a petition for redress to legitimate grievances then you might have *some* sympathy, but after three days your mob seem to be just trashing and looting because they're f***ing idiots now.

I'm with Tiny - it's no mercy rubber bullets time.

Another reddit clip

Saw that on reddit last night, the comments identified it as some old guy "owning" a bbc presenter and i was expecting something morgan freemanesque, but what i got was more grandpa simpson.

Saw that on reddit last night, the comments identified it as some old guy "owning" a bbc presenter and i was expecting something morgan freemanesque, but what i got was more grandpa simpson.

Yeah I thought that she was very much in the right to ask what she did, especially bringing up that the shooting had not yet been proven, but him explaining that it was always going to happen seems a very important point to take away from this. Thankfully, as we covered in another thread a while back, it probably won't spread to Australia.

Also, Looting 'fuelled by social exclusion'

Young looters from poor estates have nothing to lose and no reason to obey social norms, say experts.

Not to condone it, but it does seem a kind of obvious outcome, from what I'm seeing.

Not to condone it, but it does seem a kind of obvious outcome, from what I'm seeing.

nerf stop making f***ing excuses for people. it is pure and unadulterated criminality. there is no excuse. there is no fault on society. These people made a conscious choice to engage in this form of behaviour.

Maybe it is society:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2011/aug/09/tottenham-young-people-riot-future

I have lived in Tottenham since 1998 and have plenty of friends and business contacts in the neighbourhood. The saddest thing is that a lot of the services destroyed were provided by locals doing their bit for the people in the area. I felt ashamed and embarrassed – but not surprised.

The shooting of Mark Duggan was an excuse, an opportunity, the lighting of the match: the bonfire was ready and waiting. It was going to happen. I've been saying so since the new government announced the cuts and the job losses began to bite.

Our society is breeding a whole generation of young people who do not expect to achieve anything productive in their lives. Graduate students are applying for jobs that, previously, would have gone to somebody with A-levels. Those with A-levels are applying for the jobs for people with no qualifications. So jobseekers with no qualifications are stuck.

Lara Oyedele, chief executive of Odu-Dua Housing Association At the housing association I lead, we provided places for the Future Jobs Fund (FJF), a training scheme run by the Department for Work and Pensions for young people between the ages of 18 and 24. Consequently, during the interview process, I spoke to a lot of young people from the community.

There's a generation out there, hopeless, devoid of aspiration, unconvinced they will achieve anything. The 100 or so young people I have seen through the FJF are just the tip of the iceberg.

Graduates are wondering why they bothered with university; the ones about to finish school and are thinking of going – particularly those with parents who have been made redundant, themselves with degrees and professional training – can't see the point of investing over £30k on further education.

The last vacancy we had paid £18k and we had nearly 200 applicants. Over two-thirds were people with first-class degrees. The shortlist was occupied by five very well-qualified, intelligent graduates. That job did not need a graduate. But I gave it to a graduate because, when faced with a choice between a graduate and non-graduate, I made a decision that is best for my organisation.

nerf stop making f***ing excuses for people. it is pure and unadulterated criminality. there is no excuse. there is no fault on society. These people made a conscious choice to engage in this form of behaviour.

I'm not making excuses or saying that it's ok. I'm suggesting that it should have been expected - that society is creating this problem, yet refuses to budge or open their eyes to it, and are now scratching their heads when the outcome is being seen.

Perhaps, anyway. I don't know that much about the situation, but everything seen so far appears to confirm it (which is quite possibly a matter of biased interpretation).

'm suggesting that it should have been expected - that society is creating this problem, yet refuses to budge or open their eyes to it, and are now scratching their heads when the outcome is being seen.

That is an excuse

That is an excuse

Explanation & Condemnation != Excuse. Christ. O_o

Understanding the cause does not mean that you're ok with the outcome. That'd be like claiming that somebody who explains that excessive drinking causes liver damage is making excuses, and that you will go on exposing yourself to dangerous levels of alcohol due to being headstrong, and somehow not expect the liver damage to get worse.

that society is creating this problem so you are saying the source of the problem stems with society and they are responsible for the cosnequences that follow.

i disagree.

society may be unequal. but that is of no moment. inequality does not cause this. people, bad choices, groupthink/peer pressure and idle hands caused this.

Haha classic Nerfery

Martial law is the last resort for the Government to restore order but its definitely one of the tools available, and it shouldn't be off the table if the police can't assert control.

An extreme level of inequality cause the russian, chinese, french and english revolutions. but these benefit brats as someone else most aptly put it scunge around on welfare and think the world owes them a living. they have not been dealt with unlawfully or had any of their rights taken from them by the State.

They are free to make of their lives what they will. The rioting is fuelled on frustration and jealousy.

^^ and a sense of "the world owe me a living" entitlement.

society may be unequal

It is, very much so, but that's not the problem.

but that is of no moment.

I don't know what this means.

inequality does not cause this. people, bad choices, groupthink/peer pressure and idle hands caused this.

Well, I would say those are largely the results of inequality, or, more specifically, a psychological issue, which needs to be addressed. Simply dishing out at-face-value judgement, feeling good about yourself, and walking away, is not a practical response, nor a valid attempt at trying to understand the complexity of it.

On the bad choices thing, just no. They didn't chose to be born there any more than their "superiors" made the wise choices of being born into more beneficial lives. They may well have inherited some bad habits, and that is what needs to be addressed. As many are clearly explaining though, this was about the psychology, about the loss of hope, about the despair, about the lack of expectations, about not knowing how to be anything else. Ignore those if that's how you deal with things, I'd rather understand what humans need to be what they can be, and address the problems.

And I don't, in any sense, suggest that what these guys did was ok. I'm only talking about the apparent cause, which is worth addressing, rather than judging and ignoring, which is utterly useless.

Can you please post some certified stats proving inequality please, also links to scientific research papers explaining that this would be the underlying cause of the current conflict.
I would like some evidence to support that they had no choice in life as well, if possible.

Thanks.

This isnt the same as Russias revolution or Frances.
There was no consumer goods back then, ppl rioted for food this time its TVs iPods, Phones, Consoles, jewelry, booze etc
There is no order, no leadership, no goal.
There is no group to arrest, no Religion to blame.

I think i saw its up to 700+ arrests now and its still going.
What if they get control of a Power station ?
cut the power to parts of London/other Cities ?
A TV Station to broadcast the revolution ?

^^ and a sense of "the world owe me a living" entitlement.

By this logic, shouldn't every trust-fund kid be out there too? After all, they get given far more than these guys likely do, so the outcome should be far worse right? As opposed to those of us who have worked (or at least, I have, except for ~$17 grand of government/rent allowance in my final 3 years of engineering/science undergrad, $1k in Ruddbucks, $2.16k in flood assistance, and something like $1.5k in inheritance - my entire life's unearned income) Furthermore, are you actually suggesting that you're jealous of these guys, that you envy their situation? If so, why not go join them? Why not go live in these fantastic places where the only reason that people turn out this way is because of a lack of personal quality, surely you'd shine!

Far out. Does every thread about world events or science have to involve Nerfington being misinterpreted?

Hasn't happened or been claimed, only the usual Door/Hog/Scooter baiting and abusing.

You make every thread like reading a text book upside down :(

So I'm reading that 3 people have died after being hit by a car in the riots, murder investigation underway. Getting to about that point where the cops need to put the boot in.

I find it annoying that journos and such keep asking the locals there why they think this is happening. They all have a different reason.. "people are frustrated because of (insert whatever is pissing me off here)". Then the journo turns around and goes "AHAH! YOU'RE CONDONING IT!". Well you asked for an explanation, bitch!

A few of them have replied "LULZ free s*** is FUN!" - they're the ones to worry about :/


last edited by thermite at 17:07:32 10/Aug/11

There sure is a lot of overanalysis going on.

These people are just f***wit criminals. Listen to the radio thing I linked above - it's clear that those dumb f***ing bitches simply do not relate what they are doing to "stealing" or crime in any way. It's just a bit of fun for them and an excuse to party and run amok and "get things for free". They're just the unfortunate dregs of society that have found an opportunity to do the sort of really dumb s*** they would like to be doing all the time - getting something for nothing at the expense of others.

I can 100% guaran-f***ING-tee you that when they're arrested their first line of defence will be "but everyone else was doing it, why aren't you arresting them?", or words to that effect. It's the first excuse the rule-breaker goes to when there's other people doing it. I guess these people never had mothers that used the line "if everyone else was jumping off a cliff, would you do it too?"

Hear it all the time on game servers and online community management. "Newsflash, other people breaking the rules does not give you a license to do it as well. No, you're not getting unfairly singled out - you were just doing it in such a way that was even more stupid or obvious and you've been collected by the very rule enforcement apparatus that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to help catch people LIKE YOU THAT ARE BREAKING THE RULES. Why are you at ALL surprised about this?"

Frankly events like this are probably good for society because it just provides a simple way of scooping up these dregs and locking them away where they belong.

I reckon probably 0.5% of these "protestors" have any actual real moral basis that they can explain for what they're doing (and even those I'd be skeptical about it). And on a Venn diagram they will not overlap at all with the people that are looting. If you're looting, you're just a criminal, period - you're not a freedom fighter or a revolutionary. You are a common thief.

These people are just f***wit criminals

Aye, so creating them needs to be avoided.

Frankly events like this are probably good for society because it just provides a simple way of scooping up these dregs and locking them away where they belong.

I agree with doing it for these guys, one hundred percent. But, better yet, also ensure that people don't turn out this way in the first place - address the root cause (and for that, one needs to ask why some people turn out this way, and not others, what are the differences at play in their lives?)

I've suggested one root cause, which seems to be backed up by commentary from those familiar with the situation. The other commentary hasn't argued against that either, it's just highlighted how bad these people are now, but not what made it so. (I only suggest that 'society' is the one who can address the problem, because 'society' has the money/information/control/ability, not these guys)

Apparently society strips the less-fortunate of their morality

Rather, doesn't raise them with. Creates situations where these people will be bred. Creates situations where people won't have any kind of self-respect nor have much reason to.

As I've said, many many times, what they did was wrong and not productive. What they are, arguably rests in the hands of the people who created them. The policy-makers, the voters, the stereotypes, the expectations. I was raising one possibility for why they are what they are, identifying where the difference lies. Maybe it's bad cultural memes in these places, maybe it's lack of hope as they say (seems believable) - not making excuses for them, I can't stand them, just trying to get to the causation, because people like that are the last that I want around.

Listen to this: http://audioboo.fm/boos/434411-leana-hosea-speaks-to-croydon-looters-on-bbcworldservice prepare to headdesk

I was going to post this up, Trog's called it, most of them don't even know what they're supposedly rioting for. The over analysis of racial/economic/class cause is just looking for a underlying reason.

Didn't seem to be much trouble in London last night, most of it in Manchester. Shoreditch where I live was a ghost town with a heavy police presence, everything closed and most shops boarded up.

I was going to post this up, Trog's called it, most of them don't even know what they're supposedly rioting for. The over analysis of racial/economic/class cause is just looking for a underlying reason.

Did you listen to it all the way through? I agree that they're wankers, in case that's not clear.

You could go as far as blaming the media for encouraging consumerism, placing the rich on a pedestal, thus mocking the poor with a standard of living which is unobtainable.

Exactly. As I said, psychological problem, created of inequality.

You're thinking about this too much and you're going all hippy

I'm an engineer, I call it going all practical.

There sure is a lot of overanalysis going on. These people are just f***wit criminals.

I'm voting trog for PM. straight to the point analysis of the situation.

we don't need to endlessly debate the reasons, some people are inherently bad and will take advantage of a situation for their own gain. I don't believe it matters how they got there, they made their own choices to conduct themselves in this manner.

My only other comment is why are the police going so softly softly? rhetorical - because the politicians are afraid of the come back after a lot of previous bad incidents. This of course means that the crims are not afraid of the cops and justice so they keep on rampaging.
Get out there with water cannon, rubber bullets, CS Gas, and hit the f***ers hard.

I don't believe it matters how they got there.

If you want to solve it - ensure that it doesn't get worse - I'd say it very much matters. Very few people seem to have even had a stab at trying to figure out what caused this.

some people are inherently bad

And they all just happen to come from poor backgrounds? What are the odds...

And I don't, in any sense, suggest that what these guys did was ok. I'm only talking about the apparent cause, which is worth addressing, rather than judging and ignoring, which is utterly useless.

What the hell? That's the point I was trying to make to you in the whole Norway shooter debacle. In fact, you almost said the same thing as me, word for word. Flip flop much?

last edited by arclore at 18:19:58 10/Aug/11

What the hell is your problem man? That's the whole point I was trying to make to you in the whole Norway shooter debacle. In fact, you almost said the same thing as me, word for word. Flip flop much?

This may be a bit OT, but since you asked: My point there was - don't investigate/promote the guy's manifesto in response to his killings, it was the reason that he killed in the first place, to promote his manifesto, and it'd make his technique viable for promotion.

Here, I don't think that they were promoting or planning, rather just reacting, like animals - they haven't intelligently premeditated murder to get very specific attention, they're just idiots (and perhaps some desperate people) lashing out - I want to know why idiots are created, and if it can be avoided, in the same way I want to avoid people who think that advertising political beliefs by murder is ok (I don't think that the actual murder had anything to do with one political belief at all, rather the guy's view that it was ok to advertise that way if he in his infinite wisdom thought himself so much cleverer than everybody else, and, at the same time, didn't want to advertise what he was specifically trying to advertise with his murder)

Nerf = biggest troll on the forum

Poor is subjective. They're all fed and they've had access to state education. They have no reason to do this. They're simply playing the victims and using it as an excuse to bitch destructively. I completely understand why you'd sympathize with them though, you accuse people of bullying every two minutes.

Wealth is relative, in practical terms.

As I thought we'd arrived on, it's about the psychological component - that's what's never going to work in a system like this, from what I can see. Didn't say they had a reason to do this, I said that they did it, that something caused it, something probably avoidable, not that it was ok - I very much said that it wasn't ok.

There are a few a******s on this forum who often contribute nothing more than snide personal remarks and mocking intending to hurt, yes. Pretty easy to see the two main ones by going back through this thread.

Has marshal law kicked in yet?

There were a lot of cleanup pics today, which made me think that it must be over, unless it's only a night thing.
http://cryptome.org/info/totten-protest/pict67.jpg

only a night thing. watch it to spread to cities like manchester tonight

Sony has confirmed that it's DADC centre in Enfield was torched and looted as part of the on-going London riots last night and that deliveries will likely be affected as a result.

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/gaming/2011/08/09/sony-s-enfield-warehouse-torched-in-london/1

Has got to be said, only in the UK, would rioting kids in £100 trainers and with £200+ smart phones be considered poverty stricken.

Stolen £100 trainers.

Surely The Olympics will need to be moved ?

Theres already a huge problem with the Logo spelling ZioN.

Has got to be said, only in the UK, would rioting kids in £100 trainers and with £200+ smart phones be considered poverty stricken.

I don't think that anybody's suggested that they're poverty stricken. Rather, in a situation which breeds the feeling of being hopeless/angry/disenfranchised/substandard/whatever (and again, that doesn't make their actions ok, they were dickwads, but it seems to be what's fermenting it).

Another perspective, Guy/Girl from London reckons people are over-glorifying the rioters, who are all scum, though I don't think that I've seen a single person praising them, nor defending them, but rather suggesting that the system creates these situations and should be looked at. (edit: Seems that somebody thought the same way)

edit: And an awesome pic of a couple who were making tea for the police who had been on duty for >30 hours.
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpnw3ixTwj1qhjrs7o1_500.jpg

David Icke had pictures of people from the Riots last night on his site.
His site is now offline.

Perhaps it has something to do with this:

After RIM (Research in Motion), the company behind the popular BlackBerry, said it would cooperate with law enforcement in their effort to track down those responsible for coordinating the attacks, the company’s website was hacked. The following message was posted:

Dear Rim;

You Will _NOT_ assist the UK Police because if u do innocent members of the public who were at the wrong place at the wrong time and owned a blackberry will get charged for no reason at all, the Police are looking to arrest as many people as possible to save themselves from embarrassment… if you do assist the police by giving them chat logs, gps locations, customer information & access to peoples BlackBerryMessengers you will regret it, we have access to your database which includes your employees information; e.g – Addresses, Names, Phone Numbers etc. – now if u assist the police, we _WILL_ make this information public and pass it onto rioters… do you really want a bunch of angry youths on your employees doorsteps? Think about it… and don’t think that the police will protect your employees, the police can’t protect themselves let alone protect others…. if you make the wrong choice your database will be made public, save yourself the embarrassment and make the right choice. don’t be a puppet..


p.s – we do not condone in innocent people being attacked in these riots nor do we condone in small businesses being looted, but we are all for the rioters that are engaging in attacks on the police and government… and before anyone says “the blackberry employees are innocent” no they are not! They are the ones that would be assisting the police

- TriCk – TeaMp0isoN -

http://www.prisonplanet.com/blackberry-website-hacked-as-company-pledges-to-help-cops-find-brit-rioters.html

Theres already a huge problem with the Logo spelling ZioN.

Really? That's fantastic, grade A trolling.

I don't think that anybody's suggested that they're poverty stricken. Rather, in a situation which breeds the feeling of being hopeless/angry/disenfranchised/substandard/whatever (and again, that doesn't make their actions ok, they were dickwads, but it seems to be what's fermenting it).

Another perspective, Guy/Girl from London reckons people are over-glorifying the rioters, who are all scum, though I don't think that I've seen a single person praising them, nor defending them, but rather suggesting that the system creates these situations and should be looked at. (edit: Seems that somebody thought the same way)

not letting them take ownership of their own choices as adults is the root cause. palming it off onto society.

'society' is loosely to blame, frankly by being too pussy, but the real change starts with each individual and their choices.

stop making excuses for them and give them consequences for their actions and you will see more positive results in 10 years than 100 years of your bleeding heart bulls***

Google Maps Mashup of the riots

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f7

pretty interesting

i lived literally a 2 min walk from where the clapham junction riots were for about 3 years - its a pretty normal area. I can't believe what has been going on there for the past few days. Its like if everyone went apes*** in Chatswood or Glebe in Sydney - these areas aren't complete ghettos which is what is so weird about it.

Sigh, I request that you read what I said again, rather than listening to Door/Hog's (the known baiters on anything and everything that I say on these forums) summaries, which it appears that you've done.

not letting them take ownership of their own choices as adults is the root cause.

Yeah, may well be - I suggested that it might be bad cultures within these sub-communities, I also suggested that it may be intense frustration and despair as nearly every single person with familiarity with the situation has claimed. I don't f***ing know what it is, I was throwing out possibilities and particularly focusing on one possibility which is a well-known worry of mine, christ I've made two enormous threads about it, but it wasn't my only one, or where I started here at all.

your bleeding heart bulls***

Bleeding heart = I pretty much want to shoot them? O_o

stop making excuses for them

I've already answered this. Tons of people have answered this stupid notion in the link which I posted above. By your own logic, you're making excuses for them too by coming up with any possible cause beyond "they just have evil souls" as an explanation.

That's bulls*** facemAn. We all know this whole thing was conspired by Rupert Murdoch to divert attention away from the phone hacking scandal.

Sigh, I request that you read what I said again, rather than listening to Door/Hog's (the known baiters on anything and everything that I say on these forums) summaries, which it appears that you've done.

their comments have nothing to do with mine, your usual delusion is probably just kicking in there. I was replying directly to the post of yours I quoted, and to that idea in general no matter who asserts it.

I don't f***ing know what it is, I was throwing out possibilities and particularly focusing on one possibility which is a well-known worry of mine, christ I've made two enormous threads about it, but it wasn't my only one, or where I started here at all.

ok... so what? this isn't about you, and there's no rational reason to think it is. you and others made some comments, and myself and others may or may not agree. get over it and move on, it's part of discussing something on an open internet forum

Bleeding heart = I pretty much want to shoot them? O_o

bleeding heart as in the piece of text I quoted. hopeless/angry/disenfranchised/wahh f***ing wahh

I've already answered this. Tons of people have answered this stupid notion in the link which I posted above. By your own logic, you're making excuses for them too by coming up with any possible cause beyond "they just have evil souls" as an explanation.

false
asserting that the responsibility lies primarily on an individuals own shoulders is the complete opposite of making excuses for them.

All this london rioting jazz is reminding me of 2 movies i enjoyed watching a while back:

http://nowostey.net/uploads/posts/2008-10/1225343735_green-street-hooligans.jpg

http://i2.listal.com/image/productsus/1000/B001G6E7N8/dvds/rise-of-the-footsoldier.jpg

This is what you get when do-gooders ban parents from smacking their children as discipline.

that idea in general no matter who asserts it.

I don't think that anybody would suggest that what these guys did wasn't wrong or terrible, or that it was somehow justified. Ownership of the act lies with them.

get over it and move on, it's part of discussing something on an open internet forum

I just re-read the thread, I was having no problems aside from trying to be civil with Door which is always a mistake.

ok... so what?

Understand that somebody can approach this from multiple angles with truthful intent.

your usual delusion is probably just kicking in there

Nice.

bleeding heart as in the piece of text I quoted. hopeless/angry/disenfranchised/wahh f***ing wahh

Yeah because no reason could possibly include human psychology. Better tear down capitalism, because it relies on expectations of human greed and optimism. I'm suggesting that capitalism needs to be brought to them. They need reasons (and understanding enough to care) to be like me (and possibly you) and strike out, innovate, and rise above anybody else in one's circle. I don't think they have that, or they wouldn't behave as they are.

asserting that the responsibility lies primarily on an individuals own shoulders is the complete opposite of making excuses for them.

You suggested that the responsibility lay on the shoulders of others who didn't punish them enough (which I was also suggesting by the possibility of bad culture).

ban parents from smacking their children as discipline.

This terrifies me because it may mean that there won't be a followup generation of bdsm-inclined women when I'm an old seedy man.

You'll see it coming...

I just re-read the thread, I was having no problems aside from trying to be civil with Door which is always a mistake.

it's fantastic that you're having no problems

Yeah because no reason could possibly include human psychology. Better tear down capitalism, because it relies on expectations of human greed and optimism. I'm suggesting that capitalism needs to be brought to them. They need reasons (and understanding enough to care) to be like me (and possibly you) and strike out, innovate, and rise above anybody else in one's circle. I don't think they have that, or they wouldn't behave as they are.

well you need a reality check
it takes effort to succeed, and a lot of people don't like making that effort, is the short of it

You suggested that the responsibility lay on the shoulders of others who didn't punish them enough (which I was also suggesting by the possibility of bad culture).

I clearly stated that the *primary* responsibility lays on the shoulders of each individual adult and the choices they make. adding the implication that we should stop pussyfooting around with this type of behaviour isn't remotely comparable to making excuses for them, or suggesting that our democratic, capitalistic system makes it impossible or even particularly difficult for these people to rise above acting like monkeys and dogs

the big picture is always good - http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/08/london_riots_update.html

http://inapcache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/london_riots_update/bp18.jpg

lol at this poof in a fishnet vest

making excuses for them

Sigh, no point dude.

the big picture is always good - http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/08/london_riots_update.html

It's amazing how many people, in these and the Canadian ones, appear to be just standing around with camera phones right next to the people doing this s*** (perhaps it's a good thing, for evidence later).

sigh more, dude


I'm just glad all the firebomb-happy douchebags over the way here in belfast haven't started up with it as well

yet

Rioter Gets Blindsided - Watch more Funny Videos

''fookin' southern fairies''
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRoaMiggo4myaze2YPgGrS-gjuSHPIA-Yj9hTCOu24dvZYOdFh-

Sigh, I request that you read what I said again, rather than listening to Door/Hog's (the known baiters on anything and everything that I say on these forums) summaries, which it appears that you've done.

Haha you dork, I may have been first but I'm far from the worst. Believe it or not I tried to help you and I tend to skip past your posts now :(

f*** yeah, I think London cops need to learn some lessons on how to deal with rioters.

Edit: Glad to see Jim come back - love your work jimmles!@

Top work by those cops, bout time.

One guy looked like he was just getting off his bike to cooperate and they started hitting him and beating him to the ground.

One guy looked like he was just getting off his bike to cooperate and they started hitting him and beating him to the ground.

Yea but no way to tell, also have no context at all about what did or did not happen prior to this in that area, I take the line of if there are riots in the streets at night and riot cops in the streets and I think a curfew as well then I'd spend a few nights in.

I like this toon.
Weve seen the poor Rioting and Society is shocked and angry and wants them jailed. But what of the Bankers and Financial wizards that equally commited acts of Rioting only in the Financial Markets leading to Austerity for England ?

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/08/10/1226112/657490-110811-nicholson.jpg

A Doctor describes the Youth of Britain today:

British youth leads the Western world in almost all aspects of social pathology, from teenage pregnancy to drug taking, from drunkenness to violent criminality. There is no form of bad behaviour that our version of the welfare state has not sought out and subsidised.

British children are much likelier to have a television in their bedroom than a father living at home. One-third of them never eat a meal at a table with another member of their household -- family is not the word for the social arrangements of the people in the areas from which the rioters mainly come. They are therefore radically unsocialised and deeply egotistical, viewing relations with other human beings in the same way as Lenin: Who whom, who does what to whom. By the time they grow up, they are destined not only for unemployment but unemployability.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/british-rioters-the-spawn-of-a-bankrupt-ruling-elite/story-e6frg6zo-1226112640970

last edited by FaceMan at 12:32:36 11/Aug/11

Faceman, the major problem with England is its welfare policy. Who actually works in England? Most people seem to live in a "council flat". What do they produce? England needs less welfare and more workers, it has a structural deficit like the US. The deeply entrenched reliance on welfare in whole communiities makes them volatile if austerity changes are being introduced. The bankers didn't do any of that, it was the government pandering to votes of welfare recipients.

A Doctor describes the Youth of Britain today:

Great article. That's why I don't think society failed these people. These people failed society. It's a huge advertisement for massive government investment in planned parenthood - to make sure low-lives like this aren't bred by people who should not be creating new humans.

new logo for the 2012 london games:

http://i.imgur.com/UwvM3.png

The two issues are linked though.
The Austerity measures are starting to kick in and the poor will pay.
It was vandalism commited by the Financial sector that lead to the Austerity measures. Nobody was charged with any crimes though and nobody went to jail.

Yes Welfare is a problem but the real problem is English Society is going backwards. If you read the fuull article i linked to the Doctor says no Businesses want to hire English workers because they are rude and cant adequetly read, write, 'rithmetic, so they hire Poles, Migrants with better Education and Social skills they also have better manners.

Thats not really a Welfare problem is it ?

hehe @ taggs

One of the dailies had a cartoon this morning with two Londoners in track suits - one was lighting the 2012 logo poster on fire, and the other one was in a torch bearer running pose, but instead of a torch he was holding a molotov cocktail.

English Society is going backwards.

And it is going backwards because of all the socialist policies that have controlled the country since before ww2. The handouts have grown and grown so that the populace becomes used to not having to work.

And it is going backwards because of all the socialist policies that have controlled the country since before ww2. The handouts have grown and grown so that the populace becomes used to not having to work.

lol? a minority... unemployment is 7%
Not because of socialist policy either. I'd much rather a socialist dominated country rather than a homeless ridden country like America.

The two issues are linked though.
The Austerity measures are starting to kick in and the poor will pay.
It was vandalism commited by the Financial sector that lead to the Austerity measures. Nobody was charged with any crimes though and nobody went to jail.

Yes Welfare is a problem but the real problem is English Society is going backwards. If you read the fuull article i linked to the Doctor says no Businesses want to hire English workers because they are rude and cant adequetly read, write, 'rithmetic, so they hire Poles, Migrants with better Education and Social skills they also have better manners.

Thats not really a Welfare problem is it ?

He also mentioned how they felt entitled to a higher standard of living that they have not worked for, the implication being that many of them do not want those jobs. Faced with a s*** head like that over someone from another country who is eager to work and is better mannered and better educated you cant blame them for making the obvious choice.

Another clip from Reddit, Rioting scum strike yet again in Manchester.

I loled for real nerf.

Have you cared to check how many people are employed by the government or are on disability.... unemployment isn't the only way to get on the government tit.

Youth Unemployment in England Vash is 20%.

Not because of socialist policy either. I'd much rather a socialist dominated country rather than a homeless ridden country like America.

Neither of those are good solutions because they don't address the root cause of the problem - people that suck. Once again, trog's Patented Parental Licensing would happily solve these sorts of issues.

infi is of course using 'socialist' in his usual irritating scaremongering sense that carefully ignores the obvious truth that any democracy is socialist to some extent because we all pay taxes, instead of highlighting on the specific government policies that encourage idleness. It's not a side effect of "socialism" - if it was the "more socialist" countries (on infi's scale) would have worse problems, but that is simply not true of countries like Norway, Sweden, Netherlands, etc.

It's just that they focus on completely and utterly different things with their tax dollars. The things they focus on improve their countries by eliminating the root causes of problems, rather than just propping up s***ty systems that are big problems (see: current Medicare in the US).

Agreed on the parent licensing. But even if it did come in, it would be so lax that it would be almost pointless and there would be outcrys of "i want a baby*~*!*!!*(" and the governments would cave.
In other words, world sucks

To add to my post - these "socialist death traps" (see: infi) like Norway, Sweden, Netherlands, etc I believe all have extremely active and well funded programmes for sex education, sexual health, planned parenthood, etc.

When I was in Norway a few months ago I found out that BOTH parents get I think a full year of PAID parental leave. Raising kids properly and in a good environment and stopping this problem at its root is the only way to ensure that these generations aren't raised with the sort of morals where they think going out on the streets quaffing wine and ransacking shops is a good idea.

And a big part of that is making sure the sort of people that are just going to out and bang and pop out kids every few months because they have no idea what they're doing and there's no repercussions (other than presumably more government money) have ready access to contraception and sex education.

And your Patented Parenting Licensing is even more socialist policy than any of the Scandanavian countries (a removal of decision making and responsibility from the individual). Are you saying the government knows best about who can parent? I wouldn't trust a public servant to decide if I am fit to be a parent. I have heard you use the parental licensing system so many times and find it to be an extremely glib remark.

Unless you are advocating a totalitarian society like China, it will never happen, and even there they don't rule particular parents inelgibile on the basis of low IQ or poor socio-economic standing. I would like to know your exact criteria of your Patented system, trog.

Socialism in its true sense is a control of the means of production. Which the UK does in a far greater sense than any of the Scandanavian countries. The Scandanaviam countries have higher taxation and safety nets for citizens but it is also highly capitalist in terms of its economy. Britain is just a giant rotting malaise of stagnation as can be seen by how they nationalised their banking system.

Edit: I am assuming of course, your idea isn't a giant troll and you are being serious.

Neither of those are good solutions because they don't address the root cause of the problem - people that suck.

I f***ing hate the guys that were shown stealing from injured kids, charging cops, setting people's homes on fire, looting, etc - and while I don't know jack s*** about the London situation, I'm fully on board with what you're saying.

Buuut, going by sentiments like those expressed here, it sounds as though there were multiple elements at play - some were pissed off, some were terrible people, almost as if there were two events going on in this riot, which is why we seem to be discussing two entirely different things to take from this. I don't know if the pissed-off people were genuinely an element, but a lot of the commentary from those familiar with the situation suggested that they were, which is where I got the idea from.

Trog for President, Jim for Secretary of Ass-kicking.

Apparently somebody drove a car into a pack of Muslims trying to protect a Mosque, three people died.

Are you saying the government knows best about who can parent?

nononono, I'm saying I should be in charge of it (that's why it's called the trog patented system, and so forth). I'm not actually saying it's policy that should be implemented (at least until my iron fist is fully in control); it's just a tongue-in-cheek way of pointing out that (in my ever so humble opinion) the problem is humans creating more humans with no sense of responsibility to making sure they're creating GOOD humans.

ok good, i thought you were seriously advocating government control parenting. next cats and dogs will be able to marry.

ok good, i thought you were seriously advocating government control parenting. next cats and dogs will be able to marry.

I think about it a lot because there's so many advantages to it, but as you point out it is utterly unenforceable. I would like to see some more stuff done though to encourage people to create good humans. I think paying people to make babies (thx baby bonus) is a terrible idea, but there has to be ways to encourage people to make babies that are awesome.

Trog for President, Jim for Secretary of Ass-kicking.

so basically extrapolate this forum's power dynamics into international politics

When I was in Norway a few months ago I found out that BOTH parents get I think a full year of PAID parental leave. Raising kids properly and in a good environment and stopping this problem at its root is the only way to ensure that these generations aren't raised with the sort of morals where they think going out on the streets quaffing wine and ransacking shops is a good idea.

But Norway has the same under-age drinking etc problem that the rest of the West has.

So many awesome shops

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpppp08doT1r1qajlo1_500.png
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppsk2gGhi1r1qajlo1_400.png
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lppk2w3HjM1r1qajlo1_400.png

Without a doubt, there is a bigger picture involved and most aren't looking at anything other than the immediate.

This:

Lots of reasons flying around - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149

^ That's a great write-up Viper, also seems to pretty much cover the same possibilities which we came up with here (go us?). Would be interesting to hear what conclusions they reach eventually, the more that comes out the less it's looking like a frustrated underclass riot, and actually just a dickwad riot (which, arguably, is still a phenomenon created by socio-economics or whatevs, but not in the same sense).

First article sounds like a very strong argument (the author sure is confident), but I can't help but wonder at a glaring weakness in my eyes, that 'rich kids' (who arguably get given far more) don't turn out this way, yet by the author's logic, they should, in fact they should be far worse, so maybe he's basing his argument on flawed logic, or at least, is only half hitting the mark. My questions would be - to dependency, why does a kid to a millionaire get given tons and end up the CEO of a company, while the kids from the poor suburbs get given less and end up nowhere? To discipline, do only the wealthy do this, do they believe that no kids are beaten in poverty? From my experience, the most "disciplined" tend to end up the most violent and f***ed.

I think about it a lot because there's so many advantages to it, but as you point out it is utterly unenforceable.

The government could adopt enforcement methods similar to unregistered driving. Police would confiscate the offspring of unlicensed parents and crush the kids into tiny little meat cubes like they do with cars at the wreckers.

Wooo 200 reply achievement! :)

Comedian from the area did a writeup. (strange to hear him talk so intelligently(?) with such an unintelligent-sounding accent)

infi is of course using 'socialist' in his usual irritating scaremongering sense that carefully ignores the obvious truth that any democracy is socialist to some extent because we all pay taxes, instead of highlighting on the specific government policies that encourage idleness.

Trog, it's a sin, it's called sloth. They should just be thrown in to snake pits instead of waiting for them to die and god having his way.

Good for a laff, innit. Jokes aside I gotta agree with Pat.

Mmm, I mostly agree with him also (though perhaps only because angry confidence is compelling), but, a few apparent flaws have been echoing in my brain which are going to drive me mad if I don't argue them in response:

- He says that it's because they're being taken care of financially. What about all the wealthier kids who will receive far more, shouldn't their outcomes be several times worse by that logic? (rather than becoming CEOs, lawyers, investors, etc)

- He says that it's because there were no police, yet that by itself doesn't cause human beings to be a******s (we're not all just waiting for a chance).

- He suggests that they have it better than some, so have no reason to be frustrated or upset. Yet, they're still an underclass, nobody wants to be less. Would others switch places happily, and expect to not experience frustration or unhappiness? (They're exposed to the same expectations and hopes, but apparently it would be ridiculous to ever become sad or frustrated by their outcomes. He suggests that they should accept without frustration the undesirable lower-class work, but you can bet that none of the "not scum" rich kids are facing that choice - so how can you compare? I suspect that both groups would have the same reaction to the choice, but only one is seen and judged, because they don't have alternative gratifying options) Is it at least it's obvious that these people have less reason to think they can succeed?

- He mentions nothing of their expressed frustrations of police harassment, the role of consumerism in creating these unnecessary and poisonous thoughts, the economic downturn, the permutation of lack of hope within these kinds of situations, the increased problems and frustrations which they must put up compared to their (judged against) peers, etc.

- Not sure if he mentioned discipline, it's been thrown around a lot. Does anybody think that the lower class kids aren't familiar with violence & corporal punishment in their homes, that the upper classes have more of that?

Just want to re-state that I agree with him in all, specifically on people needing to learn consequence as kids, that drugs are destructive, that their family lives and exposure-to-helpful-wisdom are probably balls, etc. (but to then yell at them for that, seems almost like yelling at a rock for rolling down a hill - it didn't choose to be there).

- He says that it's because they're being taken care of financially. What about all the wealthier kids who will receive far more, shouldn't their outcomes be several times worse by that logic? (rather than becoming CEOs, lawyers, investors, etc)

I don't get what you mean here, I assume you're talking about kids with wealthy parents, if so then I would assume they would have at least better education and probably a better upbringing in general and in a better environment with less crime, drugs & abuse. I would expect someone with this sort of upbringing to be a respectable person. Conversely someone who grows up surrounded by crime, drugs, abuse perhaps even a broken family and live off welfare would be much much more likely to go bad. Their finances are only one aspect.

- He says that it's because there were no police, yet that by itself doesn't cause human beings to be a******s (we're not all just waiting for a chance).

Ask yourself if the rioters would have done as much if they truly believed that the police would come down on them hard and that they would face harsh punishment from the courts. Also he said there are not enough police and that they are not allowed/not trained well enough to properly deal with the rioters. By properly I assume he means putting the boot in hard.

- He suggests that they have it better than some, so have no reason to be frustrated or upset. Yet, they're still an underclass, nobody wants to be less.

Yea I hate when people put this argument forward, their situation cannot be compared to that of someone starving in Africa, the rioters live in and likely have been raised in a country/society where there is more opportunity and higher expectations. The standard is higher but there is always a lower class, even if the lower class in the UK is far and away better than the upper class in a third world country, it's still the lower class.

I don't get what you mean here, I assume you're talking about kids with wealthy parents

Only that taking care of somebody financially does not imply that they will become a useless person - many are looked after extremely well and become the top members of society (though, they're not the only ones who make it there, but I think it was the Smith Family who released information showing that adult outcomes tended to correlate with childhood wealth). Not to say that dependency isn't real, but saying that these guys are as they are due to getting "free" stuff, when it's probably much less than their more successful peers, seems spiteful more than relevant or practical.

Ask yourself if the rioters would have done as much if they truly believed that the police would come down on them hard and that they would face harsh punishment from the courts

Yeah I agree, and perhaps that was a bad question to raise, but I guess the point was - the rest of us don't go out and break s*** just for a lack of cops, something is screwing up these people (or their reason to have self-worth) terribly in the first place - simply coming down hard on them once they get there seems to suggest that that's all that needs to be done, rather than fixing the cause in the first place.

Ty for the civil answer. :)

Nerfington, go stand outside a school at start or finishing time, any school, state, church, public, private, whatever(don't take candy), and listen to the conversations parents have with their children.

English have been rioting forever

Yeah I agree, and perhaps that was a bad question to raise, but I guess the point was - the rest of us don't go out and break s*** just for a lack of cops, something is screwing up these people (or their reason to have self-worth) terribly in the first place - simply coming down hard on them once they get there seems to suggest that that's all that needs to be done, rather than fixing the cause in the first place.

That's the million dollar question. But before it can be addressed the riots needs to be put to an end, not contained and allowed to run it's course, ended through intervention, they clearly failed to do this in London.

English have been rioting forever

Of course, some riots are understandable and even acceptable if there is a really really good reason for it, like in what seems to be the entire middle east, they are rebelling against dictators and oppression, also I've not seen many in Libya, Syria, Iran etc. looting stores and torching cars in the street, that's not what it's about.

Nerfington, go stand outside a school at start or finishing time, any school, state, church, public, private, whatever(don't take candy), and listen to the conversations parents have with their children.

Why's that?

That's the million dollar question. But before it can be addressed the riots needs to be put to an end, not contained and allowed to run it's course, ended through intervention, they clearly failed to do this in London.

Heh yeah, that's why I'm a bit put out by those ranting that it's just this and that with extreme confidence. Definitely agree that the cops should be out there, only hope that nobody's suggesting that's the solution to the actual problem (beating into submission, which none of us need).

To give you an insight into what some parent's are passing to their children.

last edited by m3nt4l at 22:37:06 12/Aug/11

They'll most likely be saying something like:
"Don't talk to that creepy man standing by the gate that doesn't have any kids to pick up."

To give you an insight into what some parent's are passing to their children.

Dumb stuff I take it? Wouldn't be surprising, but most of the commentary on this situation, from people familiar with the areas, described something other than just pure dumb (maybe there was both, the videos sure only showed dumb though). Saying things such as "poor people are just lazy/bad and have no justification for ever feeling frustrated/angry about anything" is dumb too though in my books.

Don't talk to that creepy man

I bought some candy from some kids yesterday, as it were :P. Fairly sure that I was more afraid of them than they were of me ('oh god don't talk to me, I'll be a paedophile pasty guy with wild hair then'). Also the little s***s didn't even say thank you, kids these days have no manners.

http://funcorner.eu/wp-content/uploads/fed-up-with-government...-steal-from-small-business-owners.jpg

Was reading that Insurance Companies wont have to payout claims.
The British Government under a Law from 1886 means that the Police are responsible for damages caused by Rioting.
That means The Taxpayer will have to pay.

UK riots: insurers 'will pay claims then recover money from the police'

Britain’s police forces could face a bill for tens of millions of pounds from insurance companies because property was damaged in the rioting while the “police effectively failed to keep law and order”.

Grahame Trudgill, the head of corporate affairs for the British Insurance Brokers' Association (Biba), said insurance companies had the right to reclaim the money under the Riot Damages Act of 1886.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/insurance/8690876/UK-riots-insurers-will-pay-claims-then-recover-money-from-the-police.html

Was reading that Insurance Companies wont have to payout claims.
The British Government under a Law from 1886 means that the Police are responsible for damages caused by Rioting.
That means The Taxpayer will have to pay.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/insurance/8690876/UK-riots-insurers-will-pay-claims-then-recover-money-from-the-police.html

Wow, I bet when the bill arrives the limp politicians will wish the were a little more pro-active. And lolz at a law from 1886 potentially biting them in the ass today.

http://funcorner.eu/wp-content/uploads/fed-up-with-government...-steal-from-small-business-owners.jpg

Repost because it shows the utter stupidity of the riots.