This story has been doing the rounds for a while lately, at least in Queensland. Unfortunately the story has expired from the news.com.au site and its not in the google cache, but it goes something like this:

This American (full-fee-paying) student has been studying medicine at the University of Queensland. He failed all three exams last year, and has been refused entry into the second year of the programme because of his (poor) results. He complained to the university, claiming that he hadn't been marked correctly. A council of experts from the course convened to remark at least one of his papers, giving him an extra 15 marks - but he still failed the subject, by one percent.

He has exhausted the appeals procedures at UQ, and is now trying to sue the University of Queensland.

TripleJ interviewed him recently on their Hack segment, and its currently available for streaming from their website:

http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hack/ (The Wednesday segment - skip forward to about 13:25)

I don't know about you guys, but I think I'd rather my doctors don't become doctors by suing their way through their degree. If a dude is going to fail all three exams in his first year, I think that's a pretty good indication that maybe its just not meant to be.

He should've just buy his Doctor degrees on the Interweb. I personally got 4-5 of these offers in my email just this morning.

Maybe this guy just had a bad year. So when his paper was remarked he picked up an extra 15 marks. Thats quite a big margin to have been mismarked. It could be the difference between someones marks. That worries me. How many other people are loosing out on marks because of mismarking? Ow and he should go home or repeat or something. mwah.

Maybe this guy just had a bad year. So when his paper was remarked he picked up an extra 15 marks. Thats quite a big margin to have been mismarked. It could be the difference between someones marks. That worries me. How many other people are loosing out on marks because of mismarking? Ow and he should go home or repeat or something. mwah.

I don't know I prefer my doctor to get it right the first time. I mean correcting mistakes can get very expensive. That or the patients won't even get a 2nd chance.

Cop it on the chin like everyone else I'd say. Failing 3 subjects is pretty bad, if he had medical or family reasons then fine but if not, too bad old boy.

he still failed even with the 15 extra marks and even if he did sue and get the extra 1% needed to scrap through, would you still want a doctor who only just passed because he sued the uni cause he wasn't smart enough to pass the exams and failed them all?

i did a business degree and i reckon i've used about 5% of what i learnt at uni ... when you start working all that useless crap doesnt really matter. But since he's studying medicine, it's ALOT differnt, because of how critical it is too get things right. 3 strikes and your out, the uni is right is this situation.

Maybe this guy just had a bad year. So when his paper was remarked he picked up an extra 15 marks. Thats quite a big margin to have been mismarked.

How is that a big margin, he may have got 15 more markes our of a 1000 making it 0.15% extra, the original statement is illogical an designed to spark emotion. The guy failed, why? Because he isn't good enough no other reason. This is Australia SEPPO, thanks for your money stupid now go HOME!

haha im still at school(grade 12) every time we get assignments back, marked, we have to double check teachers havent missed any marks or over marked... They never get it rite! 90% of our assignments are marked wrong.. the english assignment we just finish, some people failed just because the teacher missed marking an entire page. They have all been remarked now.

Uni is all about getting mismarked by stupid lecturers or tutors. Its just part of being a uni student. I knew many people who got re-marked down, so it can go both ways.

I'm guessing medicine would be a lot less forgiving than other degrees.

Uni is all about getting mismarked by stupid lecturers or tutors. Its just part of being a uni student. I knew many people who got re-marked down, so it can go both ways.

I'm guessing medicine would be a lot less forgiving than other degrees.

I don't think that's uncommon. It's your right to protest/enquire about your mark i.e. you're not satisfied that your mark isn't correct etc which is very possible that it isn't. I personally had such experience, they gave me a 2 because apparently my final paper (which worth about %60) I had only 6 out of 100. I enquire and found out that one of the marker had left out the zero at the end of the six.

Now if the Uni had:

A council of experts from the course convened to remark at least one of his papers, giving him an extra 15 marks - but he still failed the subject, by one percent.

And you're still *failed* then I would say he's really isn't apt to do Medicine -- may be he should be doing IT instead. ;)

last edited by Opec at 10:00:57 16/Apr/04

mmm i just know that if i was to spend a s*** load of my valuable time studying for a test, and was paying a s*** load of money for a course, that i would want the paper to be marked correctly!

Yeh this dude probably isn't meant to be a doctor - no disputing that - 3 tests failed being the obvious indicator to that fact.

Idotic, stupid, dumb comments about Americans will be deleted and you will be banned, starting now. That should have been obvious, but I forgot that I needed to spell s*** like that out monosyllabically sometimes.

so tempting .... must resist the urge... only ... only in ...

Honestly, I thought that you could not sue Universities in Australia over this sort of thing?

This is why I miss tafe, you fail you just do the test again. I was shocked to learn that some people had actually failed.

On what grounds is this guy suing?

monosyllabically

I pulled a tounge muscle trying to pronouce that one, think I might sue :P

Maybe this guy just had a bad year.

Having a bad year can be incorperated into the appeals process. Not to mention that if you have some sort of learning difficulty that can be refactored into the whole equasion. First year students have such a easy time on things like that, to the degree of hearing about people who "discovered drugs and girls" and thus failed all 8 of their first year subjects being allowed to redo them all in the next year.

So when his paper was remarked he picked up an extra 15 marks. Thats quite a big margin to have been mismarked. It could be the difference between someones marks.

A fifteen mark increase on an exam could literly mean looking at a single answer in a different light, or having the student justify his answer. Not to mention that I have seen exams that have hundreds of marks.

Although, if we consider that those 15 marks where 15%; then the guy had only gotten around < 20% over the course of the year. Considering every first year course I have done, and knowing some of the first year courses that he would have done ... retarded monkeys could get 45% just by cramming at the end.

That worries me. How many other people are loosing out on marks because of mismarking?

Lecturers and tutors don't want to fail people, they had doing that. There is nothing more frustrating than going over someones assignment, or exam and thinking "Holy f*** did this guy show up to any lecture?".

Students have the right to appeal their marks if they don't think they are valid. For the vast majority of time lecturers and students have a conversation about the marks and some sort of event happens from it. Either a justification for the mark or a change in the marks ...

If it gets really bad you go though the rest of the appeals process and stuff (which this guy did) ... serriously if it gets to the level it did ... the guy must have been a dickwad combined with a arsehole, to lose his case.

The real telling sign for me is that the student union isn't all over this like flys to s***.

Ow and he should go home or repeat or something. mwah.

No, more losers need to be kicked out in the first year.

Edit: That should be "less than 30%".

last edited by typo at 10:33:49 16/Apr/04

i had a look around for precedent cases but it seems that this guy is the first to do such a thing and well that is not surprising due to the pathetic nature of his case. The chances of him winning are pretty slim and well his credibility as a professional and more so a doctor has been seriously compromised.

Honestly, I thought that you could not sue Universities in Australia over this sort of thing?

I think the guy is pushing s*** up hill with a toothpick. I think one of the things you sign when you enter uni is that you respect the right to be failed. I can't remember exactly what it is, and I can't be f***ed going though the student charter for it.

Anyway I don't think he is going to have much of a chance, I imagine that the jury will be unsympathetic to his crying.

Meh when I was in second year I got really sick, missed almost a semester of uni, and EVERY moronic doctor I went to told me to 'eat better' even after I told them I ate vegetables and fruit most days, white meat, red meat etc, generally a very good diet.

Anyways as a result I had to drop a subject to catch up on the others, ended up getting s***ty results, K (which is a 0) 4,5,5 or something. That semester is keeping me below honours and stopped me from doing a research thesis.

Ofcourse the head of department doesn't want to hear a thing about it. P.S because doctors were morons and couldn't figure out what was wrong no Docs certificate...
If he did get sick he should have sacrificed a subject to get through the other ones (if he wanted to stay at uni so badly) or just gotten a docs cert.

once in a third year design subject the lecturer pointed out a sary fact to us. Just like in any other degree at uni, all a student needs is 51% and they pass the subject. The local GP you visit might be one of those who only barely scraped through his degree. Or even worse like many students he got his solutions off a mate who actually has a clue.

correct me if I'm wrong which I may well be but I thought medicine was run differently to most other courses. Someone told me you only do 3 subjects that run for the entire year and that you have to get really high marks to pass?

Just like in any other degree at uni, all a student needs is 51% and they pass the subject.

This is the same point that I wanted to bring up. I personally really don't think that doctoring (if you'll accept that word :p) is a career where "half right" is good enough. Provided that the review markers weren't completely off their nut, then he's borderline...and in my opinion, that's just not good enough.

Now I recognise that legally this isn't a great argument, but I'm not providing this from a legal standpoint. I'm just saying that unless there's been some gross negligence with the marking through the entire process (original marking and reviews), then this guy isn't doing well enough for me to think he deserves to move on to second year.

(Edit: Of course, I could be wrong with the 51% passing grade, or other things. Please correct me if this is so.)

last edited by Dogmatix Man at 11:38:39 16/Apr/04

then shutup about it and move on

only americans sue at the drop of a hat

and i 100% agree that more losers need to be kicked out in the first year, maybe this guy should get the hint

i'd rather not go under the knife of a guy who sued his degree under his belt

as a disgruntled mature age prospective student, i was rejected quicker than john west's tuna when trying to apply for a course. was it my marks? f*** no, i got a 170 on my STAT exam for those who know what that means

hint hint

hope the poor c*** loses his court case, dumbass

I did first year med with this guy last year. To put it nicely we all knew from day one that he was a bit of a know-it-all loud-mouthed so and so. That being said, unfortunately I made it into second year and now only have to deal with him when he shows up to second year lectures in the hope that his 4th appeal will actually be successful and he will be let into our year. Medicine is structured completely different from other degress - we don't have "subjects". This guy not only failed our mid year exam, but followed it up by failing the end of year exams as well. In between these he found time to read the University Guidelines on appeal (apparently a MASSIVE document, hundreds of pages). Perhaps if he had used this time to study he may not be in this situation now. This guy failed the last exams by a fair bit - over 20 acamedics and medicos remarked his papers, scrounging to get him extra marks, eventually giving him 15 more - for an exam that is out of nearly 400. He STILL failed. The fact that he pays 35 grand each year to be enrolled here is irrelevant imo - it should if anything be more incentive for him to work his ass off and ensure he gets good grades. We ALL pay money for our degree, and there is no way he should get special treatment over anyone else cos he is from O/S.
Fortunately this guy has had his picture on the front page of the Courier Mail and now most doctors I know want nothing to do with him and plan on nailing his ass to the floor if and when he becomes an intern.

Luckily I am better at being a med student than spelling "academics"...

^^^ BAM!

This is the same point that I wanted to bring up. I personally really don't think that doctoring (if you'll accept that word :p) is a career where "half right" is good enough. Provided that the review markers weren't completely off their nut, then he's borderline...and in my opinion, that's just not good enough.

Thinking that a pass is someone that only got half the questions right isn't really looking at how most grading is structured. A passing student in theory knows all of the core content of the subject, but hasn't put any extra effort into the subject.

• Serious Fail
Fails to satisfy most or all of the basic requirements of the course.
• Fail
Fails to satisfy some of the basic requirements of the course.
• Pass Conceded
Falls short of satisfying all basic requirements for Pass but can be granted concession for deficiencies through:
o being close to satisfactory overall, or
o having compensating strengths in some aspects of the course, or
o having compensating strengths in other courses, or
o other mitigating considerations.
• Pass
Satisfies all of the basic learning requirements for the course, such as knowledge of fundamental concepts and performance of basic skills; demonstrates sufficient quality of performance to be considered satisfactory or adequate or competent or capable in the course.
• Credit
Demonstrates ability to use and apply fundamental concepts and skills of the course, going beyond mere replication of content knowledge or skill to show understanding of key ideas, awareness of their relevance, some use of analytical skills, and some originality or insight.
• Distinction
Demonstrates awareness and understanding of deeper and subtler aspects of the course, such as ability to identify and debate critical issues or problems, ability to solve non-routine problems, ability to adapt and apply ideas to new situations, and ability to invent and evaluate new ideas.
• High Distinction
Demonstrates imagination, originality or flair, based on proficiency in all the learning objectives for the course; work is interesting or surprising or exciting or challenging or erudite.

At UQ now a 3 is considered "Limited Pass".

as a disgruntled mature age prospective student, i was rejected quicker than john west's tuna when trying to apply for a course. was it my marks? f*** no, i got a 170 on my STAT exam for those who know what that means

Funny I didnt even go a STAT exam and I was accepted into Uni as a MAS. I deffered.

At UQ now a 3 is considered "Limited Pass".

where?

3.2 Grading scale
3. Pass (Conceded): Falls short of satisfying all basic requirements for Pass but is close to satisfactory overall and has compensating strengths in some aspects.

Must be a very new change.

as a disgruntled mature age prospective student, i was rejected quicker than john west's tuna when trying to apply for a course. was it my marks? f*** no, i got a 170 on my STAT exam for those who know what that means

Are you claiming that you didn't get entry solely because you are a mature age student?

Typo, are they universal... I could have sworn that in my Arts course they changed it last year to "Limited Pass". But seeing as I don't go to uni anymore I really cbf looking for it.

At QUT a 3 is a "Low Pass". Technically you just pass but in some subject you cannot proceed with a Low Pass. And AFAIK to graduate you can't have more than certain number of 3's.

Typo, are they universal... I could have sworn that in my Arts course they changed it last year to "Limited Pass". But seeing as I don't go to uni anymore I really cbf looking for it.

The link I made was to UQ guidelines for the marks, where it reffers to them as pass (conceded)

Are you claiming that you didn't get entry solely because you are a mature age student?

want to tell me i'm wrong when school leavers and foreign students get preference?

Returning students also rank higher on the food chain, the uni system bites ass

I got accepted into 3 degrees and I'm classed as a mature age student.

so you're wrong :P

i think u need quite a bit more then 50% to pass med

mature age student is someone without any previous paperwork except year 12 =P

i didn't for one of them it was just something i put down to fill up space

What scares me is that he sounds like a fairly intelligent person in the interview. Articulate and seems to be doing it for the right reasons. But I mean, if hes failed then hes failed. He just sounds like a bit of a wanker :P

Wanker > Intelligent

Knows the right words to say on the radio but not the right words to answer exam questions. Stop whining and start studying I say.

mature age student is someone without any previous paperwork except year 12 =P

Don't you have to be out of school for a period first like 2+ years, it used to be 2+ years fulltime employment.

bloody stupid yank..

oh no, i am a dumb prick who can't pass my tests, what ever should i do??

i know, i will sue the uni for it!!

:/

i hope he gets fined for wasting the courts time..

more than two 3's and you're out of the course at GU. Apparently the guy is a bit of a f***wit but even so there are more than a few ppl I know who started off extremely s*** as far as grades are concerned and are now, in their final year are topping them. It's only first year med (although this is his second time around, and he's taking second year med subjects). Like anyone knows wtf they are talking about in first year/second year. I guess if he really wants to do med he'll take it a third time.

personally I would prefer doctors got 100% on their exams not merely a "pass"...

I think the guy is pushing s*** up hill with a toothpick.

Thanks typo, you made this thread worth reading

more than two 3's and you're out of the course at GU.

I doubt thats the case. At UQ you're allowed two 3's in your degree, after that they count as fails and you have to retake the courses.

You don't get "kicked out of your course" unless you

a) get warned twice for getting semester GPA's that are to low.
b) have an overall GPA thats to low
c) fail the same course 3 times and its a required course.

Pretty sure 3 is the maximum times u can take a course at UQ.

Anyways after that you just write a nice letter saying "please sir I won't do it again" and they give you another chance. Couple of people I know had to do it.

He sounds perfectly reasonable on the radio, no news links have been supplied so I can't comment on his marks.

For everyone saying they don't want doctors who only scrape through, consider this : We don't have a surplus of doctors, there are common complaints of huge waiting lists for life saving surgery and emergency rooms, if you were on one of these lists or in one of those rooms, I can imagine your standards being much lower depending on how badly you need medical assistance.

Also, people say some only scrape through, but who is to say that doctors are not held to a higher standard at university? You can't just say, "well they have the same marking structure so it must be the same." It could be incredibly stringent and difficult regardless of having the same marking structure. I have not done any sort of medical degree so I don't know, all I'm saying is that everyone making comments like this probably doesn't know either.

I can imagine your standards being much lower

I dare say you're missing the distinction between surgeon and doctor. Anyone who manages to get barely over 50% is likely to end up as a GP and definetly won't do well enough to be a surgeon.

Oh and if someone had to cut me open and perform surgery I would be VERY picky as to who gets to do it.

Oh and to make clipto sleep a lil easier, I have med students in my cricket and basketball teams who I chat to reguarly about our uni stuff.

want to tell me i'm wrong when school leavers and foreign students get preference?

There are a block of seats allocated to mature age students for first go.

As I am getting into the last year of my uni a large segment of my year are all mature age students, including myself.

What degree did you apply for?

Making a sweeping assumption here, but I guess you applied for a very popular degree, that quite often has applicants well above the OP cut off applying for it.

I can’t recall what my exact mark was from my STAT exam went, but I remember I was in the top 2% of results for that year, and got into my first preference in the first round.

Athough I didn't need it, I also placed my final selection as some Degree I didn't want to complete, but it was at the Uni I wanted to go to. At least that way I would be in the system and I could work on getting to where I wanted to be.

Thanks typo, you made this thread worth reading

I try my best :)

I doubt thats the case.

Ok, you got me, after looking at the course requirements for the degree,

gain no more than 30CP for courses with a Pass Conceded (PC) grade;

that's a 3. more than three and you don't get your degree. Still pretty clear cut to me.

I dare say you're missing the distinction between surgeon and doctor.

I dare say your right, so scrap surgery (although surely you can get surgeons who only just make the cut?), what about the emergency rooms?

Oh and if someone had to cut me open and perform surgery I would be VERY picky as to who gets to do it.

What if you were without insurance on one of those 18 month waiting lists? Or had some relatively mundane issue but were living in a remote area that would otherwise have no doctors?

I have med students in my cricket and basketball teams

So do med students "scrape through" in much the same way as others? Or is their course naturally tougher and "scraping through" could be considered a pretty thorough understanding of the subject?

I work for the University of QLD School of Medicine as a Systems Engineer. Trust me, dumbass's don't get through the course.

Attrition rates over the period of the course are very high.

clipto: The friends of mine who are taking med were studying before the semester even began, I take engineering and even we don't do very much before the semester starts.

Thats the kind of person we want coming out as docs, people who are more dedicated to passing a degree than finding loop holes through it.

Thats the kind of person we want coming out as docs, people who are more dedicated to passing a degree than finding loop holes through it.

You do? I want qualified people as doctors. I mean give a guy a few gold stickers or even extra marks for dedication, but ultimately it means s*** in comparison to your qualifications.

He says he qualified for a passing grade, when they reviewed his test, they conceded they made mistakes in marking. If he believes the review process was ultimately unfair I would expect him to follow it up, he says he has exhausted all other avenues and now is suing.

typo put it well

• Pass
Satisfies all of the basic learning requirements for the course, such as knowledge of fundamental concepts and performance of basic skills; demonstrates sufficient quality of performance to be considered satisfactory or adequate or competent or capable in the course.

So I am satisfied with doctors getting by with a passing grade.

haha, im the king of scraping through
lucky i only do IT work

ROFL!!! quote from the interview "people in america are more acountable for their actions"

bs! they are always blaming others, 'there should be sign so i didnt do it' ect.

ROFL!!! quote from the interview "people in america are more acountable for their actions"

I think that's what he means, except from the other perspective (ie, the companies, etc, are more accountable, so they're more careful).

I think that's what he means, except from the other perspective (ie, the companies, etc, are more accountable, so they're more careful).

Yeah, thats what I thought he ment, because of high rate of litigation us business is more careful.

at least he's getting practise being in court

i've got a feeling he'll be in court a few more times if he gets his degree. but i guess if they find he was negligent after giving someone the wrong diagnosis and ultimately killing them, he can sue the university for giving him the degree in the first place

've got a feeling he'll be in court a few more times if he gets his degree. but i guess if they find he was negligent after giving someone the wrong diagnosis and ultimately killing them, he can sue the university for giving him the degree in the first place

It is a sad irony that the statement above is at the same time ridiculous, and also scarily possible.

so true fpot

Anyone who manages to get barely over 50% is likely to end up as a GP and definetly won't do well enough to be a surgeon.

Fade2Black I don't know who you have been talking to but this is not right at all! For a start, the cut off for a pass in med is not 50%. It is adjusted depending on the average marks people get etc and a whole lot of other variables. Noone in med gets 100% - in my year (I did first year last year with this guy in question) the top mark was 80-something. BUT most people get in the 60 - 70% range. At the end of the day, when we graduate, noone will know what marks we ended up with.

Further more, the misconception that people who get just over 50% will end up as GPs is HUGELY incorrect. GP is a specialty just like paeds or endocrinology. To be a GP you have to get on the GP training program and do more study and exams after residency. So the people who get "barely over 50%", which is the majority of us I am sorry to tell you (because the assessment in Med sucks ass, and they are working on ways to improve this) don't "end up" as GPs. Your marks in med school have no bearing on whether you have done "well enough to become a surgeon". You should clarify this with your med friends I would think.

He says he qualified for a passing grade, when they reviewed his test, they conceded they made mistakes in marking.

He didn't qualify for a passing grade on review. As I said above, our garding is completely different to all other uni courses, but he had his paper remarked, they gave him a few extra marks here and there (courtesy more than anything else I would say) and he still FAILED TO MEET THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS to pass the year and enrol in 2nd year. It happened to 6 other people in the year, who are now repeating first year without any fuss, as this guy should be doing if he wants to make it through. The issue with the Triple J interview is that they were focusing on the fact that he is a full-fee paying student. I think he is making out like the med school failed him cos they want more of his money. But the fact is they want him to meet the same minimum requirements as everyone else has to.